Temple Boxing - A study of a system
Posted by: Shonuff
Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/07/07 10:50 AM
The Kata Jitte, Jion and Ji'in All appear to be related in name, structure and technique. This relationship is commonly accepted but I have not found anyone who claims to understand precisely what it is. Were they one long kata? Are they a set of 3 like the Tekki (Naihanchi)? Are they designed to teach different weapons (Jitte - bo, Jion - tonfa, jiin - sai), or perhaps to teach unnarmed defences against weapons? Are they actually related at all?
Personally I think they are related, they seem to have too much in common for it to not be the case. I discount the weapons idea because I can't see the point of trying to teach a weapon without actually holding it. Defences against weapons, I think its certainly possible. Are they one long kata? Even if they were they were split up for a reason. I can't see that it would make any difference to anything.
I think the most likely idea is that they are a set of 3, like the Tekki, which are based on a core idea that is expanded on in the second and third forms in the series.
The main reason I started this thread is to draw the great minds of this site together to try and develop an understanding of these forms in relation to each other. I shall get the ball rolling with the observations/comclusions I have drawn so far but I think this could expand into a very interesting project if there is enough participation. I am hoping to discuss comparitive versions of the forms their application possibilities and the underlying principles present.
Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/07/07 01:20 PM
Shonuff,
I am sure there was a recent thread on this and we started talking about Jitte as a bo kata. Anyway, they have been variously explained to me as related kata from the same creator (many common techniques, embusen and salutation) and the same kata interpreted by different people. Who knows? I practice all three but probably go into more depth on Jion in terms of bunkai than the others. They seem a bit too repetitious to be one kata subdivided-why bother repeating the same techniques?
There are various stories about "monks called Jion" but I believe the "ji" bit means something like mercy in Japanese and Jion is a common Japanese temple name, hence Jion (temple sound/bell), Jiin (temple ground) and unrelated in name but sounds similar to Westerners Jitte/jutte (ten hands). I suppose the temple bit has Shaolin connotations but these are hard/impossible to verify. The salutation is a genuine Chinese greeting supposedly, which hints at the origin of the katas.
I will check the Bubishi translation but I do not remember any of these kata being name-checked as old Arhat or Dragon forms from China so they are presumably pure Okinawan, perhaps from Chinese martial artists, before the Japs got their hands on them.
S.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/07/07 01:26 PM
Jitte Jion Ji'in
These three kata are said to be found in, Shito-ryu and Shotokan almost exclusively.
Now if these 3 kata are one system the first thing that needs to be established is their order. Personally I think that the complexity of the movements are the key indicator for this.
Jitte is by far the simplest with mostly large linnear movements.
Jion would appear to be the second most complex with a number of quick short sequences and turns to perpendicular lines.
Jiin combines a greater number of smaller movements and advanced footwork, using 45d angles.
Jitte Ten Hands
Jion Refers to Jion-ji temple
Jiin Temple Ground/Mercy
Jutte = Ju or Jutsu + Te
Ju means ten. Te means hand. Ten Hands? OR, Jutsu means "technique." Technique Hands? It's written both ways in different Japanese texts. Like Hangetsu above, this kata also has a name that is counting the number of uses of different techniques in non-repeating instances.
Jion = Ji +on
Ji means Universal Love, tender, gentle, and loving. On means grace, favor, benevolence, or kindness. Take your guess. Supposedly a Buddhist term listed in some ancient texts which no longer is used in modern conversation. Some try to use this to tie Jion back to China. But, there are a bunch of temples in Japan named Jion. Many of them use the above kanji spelling for their names. Jion as a temple name is as common as people named Jones.
Jiin = Ji + In
Ji, just like in Jion, means Universal Love, tender, gentle, and loving In means shadow, shade, or backing assistance. Giving the impression of receiving mercy rather than giving it as in Jion, Jiin might mean "Place of Mercy." or In the Shadow of Kindness. There are probably better ways to translate this, however. Probably another overused name for temples scattered all over Japan.
So that we all know what we are discussing, Video's:
Jitte - Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzLYIaV0bBIJitte - Wado ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOmQR_QK4gJitte - Shotokai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxEaV6iq59sJitte - Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTclr8vsY8kJion - Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyxJlGyJcmAJion - Shotokan old w/ bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfAfyto-2Qw&mode=related&search=Jion - Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k__BYm__yqA&mode=related&search=Jion - Shito ryu, kata & bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOD6CkX4xbw&mode=related&search=Jion - Wado ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JnKWA2VFjgJiin - Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nOIWvxl5sQJiin - Shito ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ3S2GeEiokAnymore vids of this kata would be appreciated.
The trademark characteristics of these forms are the opening posture - a very chinese right-fist-in-left-palm, the stepping back double blocking opening movement, The swasticker block posture, use of Age uke, striking in kiba dachi - esp with the palm heel, side-of-body strikes (usually hammerfist) from kiba dachi.
Any thoughts?
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/07/07 01:57 PM
Barad, thanks for the response. what kind of principles or applications do you find in these kata. Do you find they have any in common and if so where do they occur.
In overview, I have found Jitte to be a longfist fighting method. Safety is found by keeping distance and evading attacks while the action of blocking creates a gaurd and forms a bridge to the opponent. Damage is done by accellerating all of ones body weight into the opponent either by stepping or shifting and at close quarters the opponents root and vital points are attacked.
For Jion I had surmised that the whole kata is attacks with defence made up mostly of fang breaking strikes or slipping into close quarters.
I've not really looked at Jiin yet.
If these kata are part of one system then in all likelyhood the first form will be the core. Does anyone have any other ideas about jitte?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/09/07 08:46 AM
Shonuff,
I am not sure I can identify the principles particularly. I am not sure also how either kata can be described as longfist in the kung fu sense-none of it looks that similar to me. I just see a number of what seem to me simple, useable applications shown with variations within the same kata, for example:
Jion: the sequence just after second kick and triple punch, the right hand/arm is reached out and left age uke rising strike perfromed. It seems to me to practice receiving say a hook with the right outstretched hand that then makes hikite and striking rising forearm under the jaw and chudan reverse punch to the attackers head, which is now at middle level after the rising forearm strike.
The next identical technique practices this sequence on the other side.
It is then followed by the same outstretched arm going to hikite and rising forearm but instead of a reverse punch to an attacker who has fallen in front of you, after your forearm strike he falls or moves back and you follow with stepping punch (the kiai point.) All three rising forearm strikes and punches, whether stepping or reverse punch, seem to me variations of the same trap and strikes, not one long sequence against the same attacker.
The stepping punch and kiai is followed by closing with manji-uke (swastika posture) and a throw as you turn holding on to your attacker (arms crossed) 270 degrees and throw as the arms come apart at the end of the movement. This is finally followed by a wrist or neck lock as you shift in kiba-dachi with what looks like a short punch but is (IMHO) a lock on something, not a punch. This manji-uke throw (without the turn) and lock is then practiced with a slide to the other side. The throw and lock could have followed any of the forearm/punch combinations but only appear in the kata after the alternative striking combinations have been shown.
The three palm heels seem to practice strikes both sides and the third then proceeds to a similar maji-uke closing and 270 degree throw but with a different locking technique perhaps (hands above head.)
Just an example of my take on it anyway-I know there are many others.
B.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/09/07 02:46 PM
Hey Barad
By longfist I mean simply that the techniques favoured are long range, I draw this conclusion from the fact that most of the techniques are stepping techniques in kiba dachi or zenkutsudachi. Especially kiba dachi which minimises available targets to an adversary and gives the maximum stepping distance to accelerate forward, crashing the bodies weight into the opponent.
The applications you describe are pretty similar to my own although I tend to look at the opening age uke punch series is all attacks, striking at incoming limbs rather than blocking and grasping, though one is just as likely as the other and perhaps they are just different layers of the sequence. I think one of the key features is in the Manji uke. It is used for slipping to the outside of an attack, where the high hand grasps the wrist of an incoming punch and pulls it back and high as you step past the punch. The kagi zuki takes perfect advantage of this opening. You could also use the gedan half of manji uke to take advantage of this opening which would drop the opponents gaurd, letting you apply the kagi zuki as a high attack or as a choke hold.
The 45d wedge block sequences I apply as stepping backwards to a 45d line thus pulling around and off balance the guy who is trying the shove you into the wall by your lapels.
I think what we are describing is very mid-close range combat, i.e boxing range which is an order closer than I find in Jutte. fitting the two together would seem to imply that the three kata teach us how to fight in progressively closer ranges making Jiin a mostly close quarter form.
So where are the rest of FA's great kata study minds? Why is the least popular topic of the Forms and application forum, Forms and application.
Barad your contributions are greatly appreciated.
More to ideas to come.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/09/07 11:27 PM
Quote:
So where are the rest of FA's great kata study minds? Why is the least popular topic of the Forms and application forum, Forms and application.
You mean other than the fact that a lot of guys on here are not shotokan and don't know these kata? Also if you go back you will find a lot of good application discussion on some other more commonly practiced kata outside of Shotokan.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/10/07 05:37 AM
Actually Med that was the very reason why I opened the discussion here and put down video's of the forms. Its all guess work and assumption as none of us, (me and barad) know these kata in great depth. No one will be ridiculed for putting up ideas after being asked to contribute to an open study.
I was looking to examine these kata from all angles through open discussion. To give everyone here a form or forms they didn't know and see what could be gleaned from them. What do the forms say to people of different karate backgrounds?
These kata are said to be of Tomari-te origin, so what do people take from the tomari-te forms in their systems?
The techniques of the forms are all very basic, there is nothing significantly shotokan about them and there is always the Shito ryu interpreatations if contributors need a slightly more okinawan view. If you super-imposed techniques of movement and kihon executution from your own system onto this one what would you get from it?
What do the technique sequences and footwork imply based on your current understanding of karate kata.
Observe analyse and constructively discuss.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/10/07 04:27 PM
Okay, I looked at the videos and here is my take, especially on your assertion that these are Tomari inspired kata. In Matsubayashi Ryu we have a few kata directly from Matsumora Kosaku by way of Iha Kodatsu, his top student. Those kata are Wankan, Wanshu, Passai, and Rohai. If they are Tomari kata I believe your are right in asserting they are basic kata because they don't have the main technique charateristic of Tomari kata, at least those of its greatest master, Kosaku Matsumora. Look at this video. It is not neccisarily what I consider the best representation of my style, but it will show you the technique.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WIdA_ZK1-nwAfter the 20th second there is a blocking technique with a trap followed by a striking combo. This blocking technique followed by striking combos is a key to the karate of tomari. It is seen in different variations in all of these Tomari kata in Matsubayashi. Tomari karate is about evading, getting in close to grapple in the clinch range in order to launch striking techniques to eventually take your opponent down and finish them on the ground. It can be used other ways, but this is one of the main fighting philosophies. However, these kata are similar to a kata in Matsubayashi called Ananku. Our Ananku is different from all others. It is an old basic training kata. Almost a tanrenho kata used to train the legs and apply weight to your waza. It combines power generation learned in Naihanchi and footwork used in Pinan kata in a more advanced way. Here is the kata.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=R6aTJuPNwOYSince this is an old kata from Kyan I believe it was the original Ananku that he learned before he went to Taiwan and came back with the one he taught to his other students. This was most likely taught to him by Anichi Arakaki. I believe that these kata teach similar methods and may infact both come from Ananku and then were adapted to the Shotokan school.
As far as application of their specific techniques, it appears pretty straight forward. More of a training kata than a fighting kata. It teaches the basic principles of grabbing and opening an opponent up before you kick so he can't use your imbalance to his advantage; Deflecting followed by uppercut/jodan uke straight punch combination strikes; combat slaps, body checks, distractions, sweeps, unbalancing, etc. It basically teaches a lot of basic shorin ryu striking techs and principles in a Shotokan/Japanese kind of way. It contains many basic/intermediate techniques.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/10/07 06:33 PM
Hi There,
'So where are the rest of FA's great kata study minds? Why is the least popular topic of the Forms and application forum, Forms and application.'
Im not so sure about the great minds bit, but we have some very good discussions about kata generally,
I haven't joined in on this one as I don't work any of the kata in discussion, so I have little to contribute.
Let the thread hang around, keep putting your ideas up and im sure a few others will join in, but it would seem mainly that we have Shorin, Goju and Isshin ryu people around who discuss kata in some detail.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/10/07 08:00 PM
Thanks for the input Med. The idea that these kata are Tomeri-te is not mine, as I said these are just about the least understood kata in Shotokan, but every source that notes any history of the kata states that they are of Tomari, and before that chinese origin.
http://www.msisshinryu.com/history/tomari-te/I can certainly see a similarity to Ananku, mostly in Jion, but not enough of one to suggest that it may be an origin for these forms as it lacks anything like the signiture techniques of the three kata in question.
Lets for a moment assume that the vague history given is correct and that these kata are of chinese origin and were passed down through Tomari. If this is the case then it is likely that the forms would have been standardised from their chinese origin to fit the Tomari mould which according to yourself -
"is about evading, getting in close to grapple in the clinch range in order to launch striking techniques to eventually take your opponent down and finish them on the ground. It can be used other ways, but this is one of the main fighting philosophies."
Shotokanisation as I have come to understand it, more often than not just meant changing the way in which the principles are conveyed in the kata. It may account for the lack of the key combination you mentioned, or perhaps tomari te was simply broader in it's approach than you thought. After all there are only so many occasions that you need to repeat a sequence and the kata you mentioned may not encompass the entirity of what was tomari-te.
Either way if we take the information of the Kata's origins as true then your description of tomari fighting principle gives us a reference around which to build (rebuild) applications, and so find exactly how these forms fit together.
Thanks again for the input, I think it will be very valuable!
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/11/07 06:27 AM
Hi Jim,
I think the assessment that the "J" kata are kihon kata holds weight.
It is difficult to discuss kata you don't practice. I've had a slight touch of them in Shotokan but nothing more than suggesting they were other forms.
Back in the early 1970's Demura Fumio demonstrated the kata in detail in one of the older karate magazines. Of course he reversed a movement or two so nobody could learn the right kata from that magazine (old style thinking but often done in those presentations).
His kata was Jiin, from the Shito Ryu he practiced. He did not explain the kata's derivation, but the article did include a explanation of 'kakushite - hidden hand' with accompanying photo's of one of Jiin's hidden secrets.
If anyone wants a scan, contact me privately and I'll get around to sending it.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/11/07 06:27 PM
Hi Shoshinkan
As I mentioned to Medulanet, I realise that there seem to be mostly non Shotokan karateka here, however I was hoping to find some of the kata reverse engineers who floated about the net before everyone went to schools that have always taught application based karate. (they were few and far between a few years ago).
Failing that I would like to try and pool any and all knowledge that may be relevant to a study of the forms (based on the information we have on them) and see what we as a group can collectively make of it all.
So then let me ask some different questions. For those of you who practice Shuri-te derivatives, What principles theories and applications dominate the tomari-te kata that occur in your system?
For the naha-te practitioners, Do the kata shown or parts of the kata shown bare any resemblance to anything you do? They are said to be of direct chinese origin and I often here of the chinese connection to naha-te.
If they do bare resemblance, in what way? and what are the naha-te equivalents used for?
For those of you who practice or have knowlege of chinese arts, particularly shoalin styles, do any of the movements or sequences look familiar.
I read somewhere in my research that the double claw movement from zenkutsudachi in Jitte (immediately before manji kamae) occurs in the bubishi as one of the illustrated defences, a simultaneous throat and groin grab.
Do any of the bubishi researchers out there recognise any other movements?
Personally I don't think that these kata are purely kihon, especially not within systemised Shotokan. Jion was the Final kata taught by Funakoshi when he brought the original 15 from Okinawa. The Pinan and Naihanchi were all present at that point and they teach more than enough kihon between them. Plus Jitte Jion and Jiin each have fairly unique signiture movements that take up around 50% of the form.
I would ask that anyone helping with the analysis tries to forget that the forms are Shotokan and imagine they are from your own system. What then would you make of them?
There you go, question for every persuasion
I look forward to reading the responses!
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 01:46 AM
Quote:
For the naha-te practitioners, Do the kata shown or parts of the kata shown bare any resemblance to anything you do? They are said to be of direct chinese origin and I often here of the chinese connection to naha-te.
I don't know the kata, but since you ask of opinion based on video...my overall impression is that it's so highly formalized (at least from the videos), that perhaps most of the natural movement of it's application principles may be obscurred beyond recognition.
so I looked at older video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfAfyto-2Qw&mode=related&search=
no help there. the interpretations are utterly rediculous. and it appears just as stylized as the modern video. (the video is a good example of how not to interpret kata, particularly when you only have a highly stylized form to begin with.)
comparitively, the three kata do seem related. they all have wide open movements, all have a similar subset of sequences. There were only a couple movements I could identify...those found in Gekisai and Fukyugata introductory kata of Miyagi and Nagamine. There was some hint of Pinan movements as well...particularly from Pinan sandan.
my wild guess is that if these were indeed from China...they are northern forms. You may start by having a look at Northern Long Fist forms. other than that...I got nothin' sorry.
Posted by: WuXing
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 06:22 AM
18 Arhats - this one is a modern representation of what they say is one of the earliest Shaolin forms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdijrNuqCWQLohan Quan, which is based upon the 18 Arhats movements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75yYtL8h4BMDa Hong Quan, big red fist, another style incorporated into shaolin "Northern Fist"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbZsgJ-pb4Xiao Hong Quan, another red fist form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=Pao Chui, cannon fist, another form incorporated into shaolin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O85HqfdCU74Qi Xing Quan, Seven Star Fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKjeyXHVV8w&mode=related&search=Tong Bei Quan, Connecting Fist form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4WIARR1sUE&mode=related&search=These are all pretty standard "long fist" sets. Of course, who knows if the way they are now is the way they were a couple hundred years ago. Their present incarnation is certainly more complex than the shotokan "temple" kata. That is the case pretty much across the board with karate kata, however. If they were derived Chinese forms similar to these, something was lost in translation.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 07:22 AM
I was thinking at a more 'basic shape' level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw3W9J_83fgbut a wild guess is a wild guess.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 09:44 AM
Shonuff,
Thanks-my view is that pretty much all of the applications are or should be viewed as close up including striking/locking/grappling and striking. Even the kicks have to be seen as low, albeit shown as chudan in the kata, to be in the right position to then grapple and triple punch in the early sequences. The extended stances are just "Shotokanisation" for show and they should be ignored when looking at applications IMO. I agree there are steps into strikes but even a short step (and with an added slide even better) can add power to a strike.
Striking attacking arms to disable them is great in theory but this is more what I had in mind with the outstretched arm, attacking an attacking limb and trapping, not just receiving it passively but to my mind the main arm techniques are for hitting in the head and neck to make for a hopefully quick finish, not giving people sore arms.
As for the Tomari controversy, I always heard this as well but it was rarely substantiated in terms of technique. Nor did I ever hear Tomari technique defined by a single trapping block/strike either but who knows? Personally I am less interested in lineage (I used to be) than practical usage.
I sense quite a lot of antipathy to Shotokan by other karateka on here. Personally I do not find these kata that basic, although they are quite easy to perform and if I could reliably use instinctively a good proportion of the bunkai that I see when under pressure, I would be happy, as in many cases they seem to provide decent responses to common attacks.
B.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 01:52 PM
I'm curious as to how people would interpret this signature:
http://www.karatekas.com/katas/jiin/jiin003.jpgis it defensive or offensive? or is it a throwing principle?
the other reason I say it may come from Northern Chinese forms is the exaggurated extention of arms. other Shorin kata also have exagurations approaching the flambouyant. It's almost as if no application was intended at all, but more an overall 'economy of movement' exercise.
another instance in the J katas ... it makes very little sense to turn 270 degrees to face an opponent. the only reasonable principle can be a throw for such a turn. But the demonstrated range of what the kata shows seems problematic dynamics to interpret it as such.
all I can say is: good luck with that.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 01:58 PM
Ed, thanks for trying
I think I see what you mean about similarities to Pinan sandan. Any other Naha-te stylists about? Goju, Uechi etc?
Just a couple of questions, what did you mean by too highly formalised, and what do you consider stylised and unnatural about the kata? How then do you feel about the Shaolin forms?
Do you have any links to video's that give good examples of interpretting kata?
Wu Xing, thanks for the links, I forgot what a joy it can be just watching Shoalin forms and I think they will be a valuable resource for this study. I agree that Karate kata are usually much less detailed than kung fu forms, I can only imagine that it implies that the Karate forms kept the core essentials of what was passed on by the chinese dignitaries/monks/sailors etc who taught the Okinawans.
Barad, I agree these forms aren't basic, around 50% of each are non standard signiture techniques, Jion and Jutte were at the end of Funakoshi's original syllabus while the forms that we know make up Shotokan kihon, pinan and naihanchi were at the beginning.
I feel the individual applications of the kata movements are secondary to how the apps relate to each other.
Take Jion for example, the last age uke to the first kagi zuki may be seen as a counter attack throw and floor strike. The last taisho to manji uke and jodan morote uke could be the same thing but with a lock instead of a strike. Assuming both are correct, what is it about the kata that shows us which is approriate when?
I think I have become fascinated with these kata precisely because of how open and varied manyof the possible applications and underlying ideas are. And I am one who believes in pinning apps down and defining kata.
As for antipathy... well that's just the cross we Shotokaner's have to bear until the legacy of JKA ignorance is overcome.
Just out of curiosity, what do your teachers at Kissaki Kai have to say about these kata.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 02:09 PM
Ed,
My comment to Shunuff addresses the stance issue I think-they were introduced for show without any consideration of what they do to the application and possibly for leg strength training. Once you revert to a shorter stance as they originally were, it makes a lot more sense.
As for 270 degree turn into a throw, that is precisely, almost word for word, what I wrote earlier in the thread. I agree that is the likely application.
I am not sure I would consider the arm movements especially flamboyant. To me, where I have an application for them, they make sense if you have someone else's arm/head/hair/body trapped or locked or grabbed in some way.
I do not like the way that gentleman represents manji uke (arm too high for me with no bend). It is hard to describe an application but after a turn, it can be the end of a throw but without a turn it can also be an entry with mawashi uke (as the arms cross) followed by a downwards strike (lead arm) to the back of the head now at chudan level and a lock/grab on the opponents attacking arm. I practice both of these regularly as manji uke appears so frequently and for me they work well as far as i can tell.
The interpretation depends massively on the preceding and sometimes the following movement. It also suffers from the general Shotokan tendency to lengthen any arm or leg position, even if only for show, as I mentioned above and this can disguise the usage.
B
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 02:25 PM
Shonuff,
I have never heard Vince Morris (Kissaki) talk much about kata origins on his courses. Occasionally he will teach by looking at the variations between say Enpi and Wanshu or Tekki and Naihanchi. Mostly it is just about finding credible interpretations, of which there are many (and they hurt, when applied to me at least!)
The central Kissaki tenets, not specifically about kata, are I suppose distraction, unbalancing of opponent, very close striking (ideally to weak points) and flinch responses with immediate, deep entering/closing followed by continuous, very aggressive counters forward (i.e not just one or two techniques) and no withdrawal (except as a deception) in response to an attack against you.
B.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 03:49 PM
Quote:
As for the Tomari controversy, I always heard this as well but it was rarely substantiated in terms of technique. Nor did I ever hear Tomari technique defined by a single trapping block/strike either but who knows?
Its not as much about the technique, but the principle it conveys. In addition it is about it being a core technique of the style, one seen in different variations, but is usually seen, at least in the karate of Kosaku Matsumora. However, Oyadomari and others may have seen karate a different way. Does your style have any core techniques which convey principles of fighting which are almost always seen?
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 07:34 PM
Med, As I see it each kata or group of kata is a style in it's own right. The things which make an individual kata unique are what will make the style unique.
Ed, with regards to the image of manji uke you displayed, the movement is positional, neither offencive nor defencive in and of itself. The particular image you selected is not the best example but then kata are designed to hide applications not just contain them. However as Barad and myself have said there are direct applications for this movement as it is.
Also in combat one will often need to overcome resistance even if it is just the weight of the limb, an exagerated practice, like practicing punching through a target, can prepare a student for the extra energy required in real. I've experienced this southern kung fu as well as karate.
"I think one of the key features is in the Manji uke. It is used for slipping to the outside of an attack, where the high hand grasps the wrist of an incoming punch and pulls it back and high as you step past the punch."
I wrote this in an earlier post in this thread. This application is taken from one of Funakoshi's books (he actually wrote more down than people realise) and leads into a number of useful applications.
270d turns are not always throws, spinning attacks are often best used when changing direction/target (next time someone hops to the outside of one of your punches instead of just realining try spining straight into an ushiro-geri). Sometimes a turn will just represent a change of opponent and nothing more.
If you look at the oizuki that leads into manji uke in Jion as stepping into the opponent and slipping your arm under his to come around his waist the whole movement becomes one fluid entry and throw. Just as blocks are not always blocks strikes are not always strikes.
The preceding technique is a high block, but it obviously is not a defence against a jab as it is too large a movement, and you could never just step in and slip your arm past a gaurded balanced fighter. Thus you realise that the full age uke movement is specifically for use (when applied as a block) against larger movements (the kind of wild unbalanced over arm swing that an angry untrained thug might throw) that allow for such an opening to be exploited. And there as we see several apps come together to give us a rule for applying them we find ourselves a fighting principle. Adjusting the application of the age uke in context with the rest of the sequence alters the principle to deal with different situations. It is this applicable knowledge I am interested in more than historical origins. I feel that principles such as this one should likely be expanded on or added to across the course of the three kata.
I think what most people forget is that there are different ways to fight. Different philosophies that all work equally well as theories and whose success is only differentiated by the fighters who make use of them. The Crane kungfu I learned combined two different (actually probably more) close quarter methods in one. Trad Shotokan is one method but study of the kata (at least in my case) shows a variety of stylistic methods. Ive deciphered a different method again from the gojuryu that I have seen and a different one again from the what I have experienced of goju sparring.
In kata all we see are dead representations of these styles so it will be difficult to find the why's and wherefore's if you only understand one method of fighting as being correct (not saying that is you but it is often the case).
I personally think long stances work fine in the right context, though I don't make much use of them anymore. The Shoalin and a vast number of chinese styles were quite happy with long stances on battle fields, civil conflicts and self defence situations for many centuries. Even the JKA traditionalists know not to use a long static stance as your base but as a position to explode into to shift weight etc.
Any more ideas or theories about the J-kata?
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 09:09 PM
In quest of showing a relationship of the "J" kata to Northern Shaolin kata, I'm afraid my experience and studies don't lead me to make that relationship.
First if you take a look at the Shaolin forms previously presented they use a East-West embusen or lines to perform their techniques. The Jion-Jitte-Jutte kata do not follow that embusen line.
Now the temple they refer to might be the Southern Shaolin Temple (I have no idea if their forms are similar to the Northern Shaolin ones I've seen and slightly touched), but from a Northern perspective I don't see a relationship.
I base that more on just seeing what I've seen and/or can watch. I believe the Okinawan's really worked not to change their forms, in terms of the basic floor pattern (embusen).
As time passed many of the kata undergo tidal flow of change, but not to the pattern. They might turn in a different direction, but on the whole the embusen remains, even if some things are added.
Almost all of the Seisan share a common underlying pattern. The same with Chinto, Kusanku, Wansu, etc.
With such cultural tie to retain part of the past, I don't accept they would take Northern Chinese forms and mutate their embusen. Likely it is a very different source.
Separate points - critizing shotokan's potential is not rational. For exmaple their stances aren't as long or as deep as the Northern Shaolin ones. It's not the stance, it's how you use it.
Undoubtdly much of the applications shown are based on beginners training concepts, even when done by black belts. That doesn't preclude other potentials, unless the group choses not to do more.
My brush with the "J" forms came on Shotokan's Jion, but I only touched it a bit. Nor did I study the application potential. My Shotokan instructor does not follow the current trend, but rather his fathers instruction, using application as the Demura explained kakushite, techniques having nothing to do with the kata. So the kata becomes a physical training mechanism in his art, and the applications are something else entirely. His art isn't the standard Shotokan, but his father began his own study in the 30's under Funakoshi, and their art is what it is, private.
There is just technique, and the knowledge or ability to make it work. If you work until you can make it work what others think is irrelevant. If you can't make it work but you keep at it, in time things will happen. Then again if you write it off as unusable, guess what it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
pleasantly,
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/12/07 10:11 PM
Quote:
with regards to the image of manji uke you displayed, the movement is positional, neither offencive nor defencive in and of itself.
not sure what that means exactly, what is a 'positional' movement?
Quote:
but then kata are designed to hide applications not just contain them.
for the kata that were taught in the middle school system after the turn of the century, I'm sure they were what people call 'watered down' versions. but I don't think they were changed in order to contain hidden stuff. They were most likely just an alternate version. and remember, teachers of that time had two streams of transmission: one to the public which was the basic shape. the second in small groups. Teachers taught in 2 places: on a school courtyard and in their own backyard. I'm willing to bet they didn't teach the same material at both.
Shotokan in particular (right after Funakoshi's death) purposely and deliberately changed their kata. some argue for sport/tournament reasons and some have other theories...but my sensability tells me that whatever the reason for the changes, they weren't for reasons of self-defense effectiveness - which moved those forms further away from what you are now intending them for. They were likely changed for a different purpose.
don't take my word for it. look at Funakoshi's form. his movements look more Shuri-te. now look at modern versions of the same forms. I've illustrated this before. where a 'neko ashi' transition used to be, it's now a long and posed kokutsu dachi. like a peacock showing their feathers to a judge. therein lies a possible reason for the change.
Quote:
"I think one of the key features is in the Manji uke. It is used for slipping to the outside of an attack, where the high hand grasps the wrist of an incoming punch and pulls it back and high as you step past the punch."
evading, then grabbing wrists of punching hands is not realistic. works well when people punch straight ahead and hold arms out there though. well, I should strike that comment...who knows what all can and can't do, plus there are training methods that use it as a learning tool. and I'm not willing to argue that.
I mean no disrespect to Shuri-based Japanese systems (as oppossed to Okinawan Shuri-based, which seem to have less of the problem of stylization corruption than Shoto/Wado)...but if you really wanted to anylize these kata, the first endevor should be finding out what the kata would look like with:
- shorter stances.
- tighter, less exaggurated movement (but not stiff).
- more circular and continuous flow with no 'posing'.
etc...
I probably overstayed my welcome in this thread. 
sorry guys. it's the way I see it. right/wrong or crazy.
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 12:14 AM
Quote:
I'm curious as to how people would interpret this signature:
http://www.karatekas.com/katas/jiin/jiin003.jpg
is it defensive or offensive? or is it a throwing principle?
the other reason I say it may come from Northern Chinese forms is the exaggurated extention of arms. other Shorin kata also have exagurations approaching the flambouyant. It's almost as if no application was intended at all, but more an overall 'economy of movement' exercise.
another instance in the J katas ... it makes very little sense to turn 270 degrees to face an opponent. the only reasonable principle can be a throw for such a turn. But the demonstrated range of what the kata shows seems problematic dynamics to interpret it as such.
all I can say is: good luck with that.
Well your Shorin is not my Shorin. Not only is that renoji dachi ridiculous and off the mark from the original Shuri Te stances it serves no utility and there is absolutely no way to interpret it as a valid tech, unless you understand the older forms.
BTW the real movement as seen in kata like Chinto is as a throw. Turns can be change-body, throws, or even balance and dynamic movement exercises. Balance is very important in life and fighting.
You see why Shonuff, who I can ony assume is an honest and skilled Shotokan-ka, is pimping us all for answers to exaggerated and diluted postures, waza and kata. Drift will occur so why aid it unless you have some other intent for kata training?
Too much change for no reason at all except personalization, aesthetics or sportificattion leads to the ubiquitous hollow karate-do which is now rampant from here to infinity.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 04:50 AM
Medulanet,
I am not sure what we do can be encapsulated in a couple of techniques. I would say that short, vertical fist and forearm strikes, using heavy hands rather than kime, all in sanchin dachi are common, as is mawashi uke and sliding footwork when appropriate but none of this is removed from the whole strategic practice of distraction and unbalancing and the psyche of close up, agggressive response.
B
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 05:12 AM
Unsu,
I don't think many people would disagree with you that extended stances for aesthetic purposes were a mistake by the developers of Shotokan. Indeed it has had the effect of disguising appropriate distance and application for many karateka. However once you accept that that those changes were not made for any reason other than looks, it is fairly easy to practice with smaller movements and stances and find workable applications at practical distances.
However for shotokan practicioners, in my experience, the barrier is cultural (admitting faults or ignorance in revered Japanese teachers) not practical. The shortened Shotokan techniques have the same origin and likely application as those who practice different forms of Shorin/Shurite. And yes, when we look at that movement in Chinto/Gankaku, it is seen as a throw as you said. Clearly you think you have a monopoly on knowledge and understanding on kata from the same original source, which is tedious as well as naive.
That your Shorin is different to many other peoples' Shorin is no surprise. Large variation within ostensibly the same groups is very common. However, you seem to assume that what others do differently to you is always wrong.
I am enlightened though to hear that "balance is important in life and fighting", although it sounds like something I might hear on a rerun of Kungfu (David Carradine). If you teach, I guess you say this sort of thing to your students. I have stood in classes where amateur philosophers have tried to tell me how to run my life when what I came for was a physical skill.
You criticise the extended postures of Shotokan, which may have been intended for leg strengthening but you said that turns in your kata may be to aid "dynamic movement". I am not sure if I understand the term as you intend it-it hardly sounds like an ancient Okinawan principle-but IMO kata techniques are for fighting, not for practicing movements separate from the practical, dynamic or otherwise. That you contemplate kata just to practice movement seems to undermine your whole issue with kata amended for looks or exercise.
B.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 06:09 AM
Quote:
with regards to the image of manji uke you displayed, the movement is positional, neither offencive nor defencive in and of itself.
not sure what that means exactly, what is a 'positional' movement?
A positional movement is one that gives you a position, i.e. moves you to a specific place from where you can fight/run etc. In and of its self it is neither offencive nor defencive as it can be applied to both situations. eg. hop to the back left.
Quote:
Quote:
but then kata are designed to hide applications not just contain them.
for the kata that were taught in the middle school system after the turn of the century, I'm sure they were what people call 'watered down' versions. but I don't think they were changed in order to contain hidden stuff. They were most likely just an alternate version. and remember, teachers of that time had two streams of transmission: one to the public which was the basic shape. the second in small groups. Teachers taught in 2 places: on a school courtyard and in their own backyard. I'm willing to bet they didn't teach the same material at both.
The only kata taught in, or created to be taught in middle school were the pinan/heian. They are basic self defence/fighting methods put together under one core philosophy of movement. There's no evidence anywhere of watering down, the pinan were just more basic than the older forms and they were that way on purpose. When I mentioned hiding application I am refering to the culture of secrecy surounding MA's that Unsu believes is appropriate and that was prevalent at the time. In that line of thinking no one should be allowed to watch a kata be performed. Someone who does sneak a peak should have difficulty interpreting it so they can't know the style and defend or re-use it.
Quote:
Shotokan in particular (right after Funakoshi's death) purposely and deliberately changed their kata.
You are mistaken. Most changes came in with Gigo Funakoshi, many of those never stuck. The biggest changes were in technique, but even these had begun with Gigo. Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu, Karatedo Kyohan and film footage of Funakoshi from the 1930's or 40's prove that the kata have not changed in any significant way. Now yes there have been a number of deliberate changes made over the years for various reasons, but they are not hard to trace.
Quote:
don't take my word for it. look at Funakoshi's form. his movements look more Shuri-te. now look at modern versions of the same forms. I've illustrated this before. where a 'neko ashi' transition used to be, it's now a long and posed kokutsu dachi. like a peacock showing their feathers to a judge. therein lies a possible reason for the change.
Wrong again. As far back as Karate-jutsu Funakoshi was using kokutsu-dachi where the Shorin styles use cat stance. Yes he used a shorter form (still used by the Shotokai), but it is back stance. The thing is even Nakayama's elongated technique is not impractically long. Over extension is a hallmark of the individual or group, not the art as a whole, and still so long as it is understood why it is done that way n class and not in application what is the problem?
Quote:
I mean no disrespect to Shuri-based Japanese systems (as oppossed to Okinawan Shuri-based, which seem to have less of the problem of stylization corruption than Shoto/Wado)...but if you really wanted to anylize these kata, the first endevor should be finding out what the kata would look like with:
- shorter stances.
- tighter, less exaggurated movement (but not stiff).
- more circular and continuous flow with no 'posing'.
etc...
I've asked the Okinawa Shorin practitioners there opinion and am happy to hear it. However my understanding of Shotokan precludes the need to make such adjustments but thanks for the suggestion. Why don't you give it a try Ed? You are Goju right? Make the front stances Sanchin dachi, the back stances Neko ashi dachi and the horse stances Shiko dachi. Circle your movements and exagerate some of the breathing and see what you come up with
You've not overstayed your welcome but I did start this thread with the genuine desire to debate some kata, I know i is the least popular activity on the kata apps forum, but I do enjoy it. Perhaps when we are done here someone could post a kata from a more respected or more obvious style. I do genuinely appreciate your contribution Ed, but bad history and off the cuff assumptions don't help.
Any more ideas on the forms?
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 06:35 AM
Ah Unsu my old nemesis! I was wondering when you would pipe up. First let me thank you for the compliment, your people skills seem to be improving. However, you know what I am going to take issue with. Pimping you guys for info? Am I really Unsu? Really???
So far, no disrespect to those who have contributed, but I have put in far more information than I have gotten out. So in that case why don't you accuse me of educating rather than trying to illicit information? Why don't you accuse me of starting an unpopular discussion? You could even accuse me of holding on to faith in a dead MA system? What is it you are here for if not to discuss Forms & application???
Your opinion of Shotokan's uttility is your own, I have posted more than enough explanation of it, but even without a blindfold sight is impossible for the man whose eyes are closed. I actually agree with most of your post, but if you could take some time to discuss the kata in question, what they teach and how they relate to each other I would appreciate it.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 06:44 AM
Victor,
I did think as much myself when I looked over the video's, Far too many differences in Northern Shaolin systems. I still think that Okinawans were not taught full chinese systems. I think the chinese gave the Okinawans the equivalent of Pinan while they themselves practiced Kushanku.
My next step then would be to look at Southern chinese systems. Though many dispute it there was said to be temple in Fujian and that seems to be where the bulk of the chinese southern styles come from as well as where most of Karate's supposed originator styles come from. I will see what I can find on their kung fu.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 07:46 AM
Quote:
yes there have been a number of deliberate changes made over the years for various reasons...
Quote:
Yes he used a shorter form ...
Those observations were what I was illustrating.
find out what the functional form looks like, THEN analyize it for application. was my point.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 08:41 AM
Those observations do not change the utility of the form. That was my point. I'm sure you are capable of applying ude uke against a jodan attack, despite the fact ude uke is normally shown at chudan. Do the same with these "stylisations". A little flexibility goes a long way. There is no evidence of changes to the forms in question other than slightly different stance length. To make it more plain to you I have looked at the oldest versions of the forms, I have looked at the "functional form" looks like. It is the same.
Aside from manji uke are there any other movements that are so "flamboyant" they blind you to their application?
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/13/07 09:03 AM
no. sounds like you have everything covered. good luck.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 03:34 AM
Quote:
Those observations do not change the utility of the form. That was my point. I'm sure you are capable of applying ude uke against a jodan attack, despite the fact ude uke is normally shown at chudan. Do the same with these "stylisations". A little flexibility goes a long way. There is no evidence of changes to the forms in question other than slightly different stance length. To make it more plain to you I have looked at the oldest versions of the forms, I have looked at the "functional form" looks like. It is the same.
Aside from manji uke are there any other movements that are so "flamboyant" they blind you to their application?
Hi Shonuff
If the specific technique/principle/use of the movement from a kata were to be discussed then wouldnt how the physical movemement of the kata should be become easier to see?
Other wise to me it seems to me the conversation goes around in circles?
Just my thoughts
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 03:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm curious as to how people would interpret this signature:
http://www.karatekas.com/katas/jiin/jiin003.jpg
is it defensive or offensive? or is it a throwing principle?
the other reason I say it may come from Northern Chinese forms is the exaggurated extention of arms. other Shorin kata also have exagurations approaching the flambouyant. It's almost as if no application was intended at all, but more an overall 'economy of movement' exercise.
another instance in the J katas ... it makes very little sense to turn 270 degrees to face an opponent. the only reasonable principle can be a throw for such a turn. But the demonstrated range of what the kata shows seems problematic dynamics to interpret it as such.
all I can say is: good luck with that.
Well your Shorin is not my Shorin. Not only is that renoji dachi ridiculous and off the mark from the original Shuri Te stances it serves no utility and there is absolutely no way to interpret it as a valid tech, unless you understand the older forms.
BTW the real movement as seen in kata like Chinto is as a throw. Turns can be change-body, throws, or even balance and dynamic movement exercises. Balance is very important in life and fighting.
You see why Shonuff, who I can ony assume is an honest and skilled Shotokan-ka, is pimping us all for answers to exaggerated and diluted postures, waza and kata. Drift will occur so why aid it unless you have some other intent for kata training?
Too much change for no reason at all except personalization, aesthetics or sportificattion leads to the ubiquitous hollow karate-do which is now rampant from here to infinity.
Ok I would agree with some of what you said .So how should it be and what do you think is the physical application ?
A throw? what kind of throw? Balance? Could you explain please in some detail?
Im not pimping merely asking
Posted by: HaterHater
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 06:58 PM
Howdy Shonuff!
An interesting thread for me...interesting enough to bring me out of lurk-mode.
Quote:
For those of you who practice or have knowlege of chinese arts, particularly shoalin styles, do any of the movements or sequences look familiar.
I read somewhere in my research that the double claw movement from zenkutsudachi in Jitte (immediately before manji kamae) occurs in the bubishi as one of the illustrated defences, a simultaneous throat and groin grab.
Hey, that's me. I practice Southern Shaolin (and also have a passing knowledge of Long Fist and Taijiquan) and would love to compare and contrast. It's tricky, though, because from what I've seen all the Kata that are supposed have come from China have gone through a serious amount of Nippon-ization. If you have any particular techniques you're curious about I'd be happy to see what I can make of them from a more Chinese perspective. And as for the double claw movement you mentioned, would you mind giving a link and time-frame in which it appears? Southern Shaolin is rich in tiger-claw techniques (some of my favorite), so it might make for a good comparison.
Quote:
I personally think long stances work fine in the right context, though I don't make much use of them anymore. The Shoalin and a vast number of chinese styles were quite happy with long stances on battle fields, civil conflicts and self defence situations for many centuries. Even the JKA traditionalists know not to use a long static stance as your base but as a position to explode into to shift weight etc.
Coming from the kungfu perspective, I'd have to agree. For fighting/sparring we usually (usually) start with the legs closer together. But still, by kungfu standards, a long stance shouldn't be "static"...rather solid yet mobile...and of course, that takes a lot of practice.
Looking forward to some good comparative analysis.
H.H. (or Josh, if you prefer)
Posted by: HaterHater
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 07:50 PM
Hello Victor,
Quote:
In quest of showing a relationship of the "J" kata to Northern Shaolin kata, I'm afraid my experience and studies don't lead me to make that relationship.....First if you take a look at the Shaolin forms previously presented they use a East-West embusen or lines to perform their techniques. The Jion-Jitte-Jutte kata do not follow that embusen line....I believe the Okinawan's really worked not to change their forms, in terms of the basic floor pattern (embusen)....I don't accept they would take Northern Chinese forms and mutate their embusen.
Two other possibilities occur to me. Perhaps the sets/kata themselves weren't actully learned from the Chinese, but rather the techniques (which came from Chinese sets) were learned and then the katas were created from those techniques. This is especially possible if you consider that back then (unlike now) kungfu was practiced for the fighting skills more than performance, so technique training came first. (IMO, practicing a set/kata doesn't do as much good if you haven't first learned and practiced how the techniques work against an opponent.) The other possibility is that these were practice sets created by the teacher (again, based on techniques taken from the original sets). The last practice set I learned was one created by my Sifu to practice certain techniques and skills...and instead of the North/South/East/West approach, it moved on 8 directions...and confused the heck out of me at first. Anyway, just putting that out there as a possibility.
Josh
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 09:09 PM
Barad- kata is not just for fighting. If you do not practice the exaggerated stances and postures you will also train your sinews and other connective tissues. The Chinese call it "chi gong" which I'm sure you know. Kata is also for proper health (mind-body). As far as being a wanna-be philosopher, that's how YOU see it. I'm just conveying the FACTS about this Universe. Balance is what it thrives on, Buddha aside. It's just freaking plain old physical science.
Seeing as how you feel that doing a pseudo-form of the proper form- which is based on less sound biomechanics (structural "ki), revised methods and waza- will impart you the knowledge of the kata originators, I can understand why you think I'm being exclusive.
That's fine. You do you, I'll do what I do, and I'm sure everything will be fine for both of us in the end.
If you want to know my take based on my training I'll give it to you. It may not be in line with what you know is truth, but it is MY perspective. I hate wasting my time typing on these sites, but I do feel that in the end many of my opinions will be justified. I mean reality is slowly revealing this. I have made mistakes and spoken out of place in the past, but my take on good karate will always stand, because it is truth.
You do your "swastika" punch and so on, I'll stick to the principles of the founder of my system and his grandfather's original intent. If you want to know another take on Matsumura Sokon's Sui-Di then cool. If not, if you think that Funakoshi knew better than a family member then fine too. We all manifest our own realities in this day and age, right?
Good training. Keep reverse engineering. It can't hurt hollow forms with no true ti-ki-chi or "bunkai" to them at all.
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 09:15 PM
Quote:
Those observations do not change the utility of the form. That was my point. I'm sure you are capable of applying ude uke against a jodan attack, despite the fact ude uke is normally shown at chudan. Do the same with these "stylisations". A little flexibility goes a long way. There is no evidence of changes to the forms in question other than slightly different stance length. To make it more plain to you I have looked at the oldest versions of the forms, I have looked at the "functional form" looks like. It is the same.
Aside from manji uke are there any other movements that are so "flamboyant" they blind you to their application?
You think that ingraining improper form and technique will impart the same lessons and tools as training the right way? I disagree. You will play like you practice.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 10:35 PM
another thought to add, not contradictory to yours. If exagurated movement is for training/strengthening/flexability purposes, then why interpret those same exagurations to application? That would seem to be a bit like using hojo undo equipment as kobudo weapons.
you
could...but why - and is that what they are intended for.
The kata trained should be the principles used...not the exercise used. I recon.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/15/07 10:40 PM
Josh,
Your points of speculation are certainly valid ones, but if true make it impossible to find a direct link because of those actions, individual training tools.
Personally if I was practicing those kata I'd be more concerned with making them work than a historical answer.
From my perspective we have technique and the ability to make it work. The historical reality is mostly pretend. Those instructors are long gone, who really cares who, why where... only the possessed.
What matters is what we can do with what we have now.
In turn that becomes our students historical reality after all.
While a quite interesting intellectual exercise, I don't think worrying about the Shaolin connection to the "J" kata can actually ever be proven, unless somebody in China shows up showing the anteceedant forms.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 01:33 AM
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 09:57 AM
Unsu,
You reason like a child and a petulant one at that.
New-age style nonsense about kata producing "mind-body balance" and pseudo-medicine that talks about "training my sinews" just sends my BS monitor off the dial.
Like I said, telling everyone else that they do a "pseudo form" but yours and the applications you learn are the one and only real deal is tedious and naive. I have seen a million like you over the years. Unless you know the original kata creator and he taught you personally or it is recorded unambiguously in writing from time of creation (and it is not!), then everything that you learn is supposition. It may be right, it may be wrong, it may work or not but whatever it is, it is unproveable as the original intent of the kata. Indeed there are so many variations on the same kata be they Shotokan or the Okinawan styles or kung fu patterns that it is almost impossible to describe any as original outright, just different people's take on things.
Unlike you, I do not claim to have the ultimate truth or interpretation, only what works for me, which is far more important.
It is a pity that you have never applied your evident scepticism to what you have been taught and told yourself (hence parroting plain gibberish such as the stuff about sinews) and to what you say to others.
B.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 10:03 AM
Not my idea either. This looks like the stuff we were ahown as "application" twenty years ago. The manji uke, for example, has a downwards block against a kick with the other hand behind doing nothing. Why? The attacks are all "karate" attacks, not grabs, hooks, headbutts etc and the distance is all wrong.
Age uke blocking a straight punch-yeah that works in free sparring all the time...no wait I never saw it as it is near impossible against a full speed punch and its hould be used as a foreram strike instead
B
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 10:26 AM
Just so everyone is clear, historical knowledge is not the aim of this thread, nor is discussing the percieved shortfalls of shotokan stylisation. I am looking to develop an understanding of these three kata as an isolated system of fighting.
To that end I have asked about chinese and tomari fighting methods in order to understand a possible basis of these kata's methods and to encourage discussion from as broad a base as possible including those who do not practice these kata in their systems.
To those who cannot grasp anything from the kata as they are displayed in the links provided, I have suggested that you re-interpret the movements to your own system and then perform an analysis and post it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzWNg1xUtZQIn the above link at 12 and 20 seconds Hohan Soken performs his version of what I know as manji uke. If all else fails imagine the move in the kata is his version.
Unsu, I do agree that you will fight how you practice, however kata repetion should not be your whole practice. Ultimately I feel a karateka should be able to utilise whatever stance posture or movement he/she feels like at a given time. After a few years of training I was adaptable enough to adjust what I was doing to whatever style I was visiting or whatever situation arose because I had a been trained to do so.
Hi HaterHater, thanks for your interest in the discussion. Below I've put links to the three kata in question, there are more versions on the first page but these are shown from multiple angles. The claw movement occurs in the first video (jitte) at 1 minute and 2 minutes and is repeated after each one-legged stance.
Jitte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvIXGVkvjqUJion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE5D0ahxSTsJiin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw-KM-pprZM
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 10:44 AM
Shonuff,
Thanks for the excellent footage of Hohan Soken performing Chinto. It is-no real surpise-virtually identical to Gankaku, although the movements and stances are slightly shorter. I think this illustrates well that what Shotokan preserves in its kata is often not different from other Shurite styles, although interpretation and indeed interest in interpretation may vary.
That is of course manji-uke that he is performing, hardly different to what we do at all.
No doubt Unsu will pop up to tell me I missed the secret and profound differences that make our kata hollow. I think it may be the invisible green bushi-kami sitting on his shoulder riding his ki aura-did you spot that?
B.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 01:04 PM
The more I think of the kata jion you decribed the more I tend to agree with the statement made somewhere that some kata were practiced in a way as to mislead the viewer from intention or have been exaggerated beyond recognition
By the way from what I have seen this isnt only in shotokan or wado. The kata I am working on at the moment has the same seemingly hidden or assumed techniques
http://www.karatekas.com/katas/jiin/jiin003.jpgThe idea I have in my head for this move when used in the kata jion is an arm/wrist grab pull and strike to the testicles with the opposite hand. (Logicaly there would be another technique(s) prior to the technique described such as unbalancing/ parrying/getting on the blind side etc or a defence from a wrist grab
Followed by a forearm or a fist to the face(or even a head crank?) taken from the wado version.I Might be right or I might be wrong.The problem I think with some kata is that when people start to change them then the interpretation of the technique becomes a best guess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JnKWA2VFjgJust my thoughts.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 01:44 PM
Or maybe it was changed to make judging kata in competition easier and more athletic to create a better sport/spectacle.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 01:56 PM
exactly. sometimes things really ARE what they seem.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 01:56 PM
Quote:
Or maybe it was changed to make judging kata in competition easier and more athletic to create a better sport/spectacle.
Yes that as well
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 02:31 PM
Quote:
exactly. sometimes things really ARE what they seem.
Ed and Medulanet,
Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu, published 1925. Describiing Chinto Kata on Page 161, step 27 Gichin Funakoshi states "Simultaneously pull the right hand up from below and the left hand down... ...taking the posture shown in Fig. 201."
Fig 201 Shows Gichin Funakoshi standing in a crane stance assuming the same manji uke posture. The video of hohan Soken shows him performing the same move with a slight variation as is expected of a karateka with a different linneage.
The kata have not been changed. Take the blinckers off and stop trying to reduce this discussion to Shotokan bashing. You have wilfully ignored every explanation of this technique and reduced a debate over a group of kata to an incessant whine over one movement. Get over it and discuss the topic at hand.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 03:35 PM
Shonuff, maybe in your karate a seemingly minute detail equates to the exact same application, in mine it does not. In fact, in Matsubayashi, application is directly related to its application for a variety of reasons. Not that the technique application will always look exactly like the kata, although many times it does, but to produce the correct "energy" it is necessary. If you are out of alignment the tech will not work right, period. Therefore, if the right arm is exteded too much, then that could be a change for sport not application. I don't know if you have ever done any submission grappling, but there are many subs which will not work if you are off by inches. Karate is the same. Of course a technique will change depending on a person's physique, however, there are basic principles that make things work, and there are others which make things obviously wrong. I am judging what I see by what I know, the same as you. Maybe you need to stop defending Shotokan no matter what the evidence so we can have a good discussion as well.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 04:23 PM
Quote:
Shonuff, maybe in your karate a seemingly minute detail equates to the exact same application, in mine it does not.
We're not discussing "your karate". The kata in question don't occur in Matsubayashi. You've provided no criticism of the applications I quoted. All youve said is that there can be no application because the move doesn't look like it does in Shorin ryu, and yet I've given you the application. Yes a minute detail can change the application, but we are discussing one movement within the style, are you trying to say it can't be applied the same as in another style because the form looks different?
Quote:
Not that the technique application will always look exactly like the kata,
So then if you know this why are you going on? I agree, often application will look as it does in the kata but not always. This is one of those times, why can you not accept that?
Quote:
If you are out of alignment the tech will not work right, period.
That is application. If we were watching vids of people sparring or doing drills and you were critiquing how someone executed an application I would understand but that is not the case, is it?
Quote:
Therefore, if the right arm is exteded too much, then that could be a change for sport not application.
Again wilfully ignoring the evidence provided because of this irrational need to disparage Shotokan. The application of this movement was provided by Funakoshi in Karate Jutsu. At the time he had more than 40 years Karate training under most of the top Masters in Okinawa. Whatever his motives in constructing Shotokan, he knew better than you what the movements were for and why they should be done as they were.
Show me evidence of a thriving sport karate scene that was active in 1925 and supported by Funakoshi to the point where he would alter kata to suit the judges needs, and I will consider that these movements may have been altered for sport.
Quote:
I am judging what I see by what I know, the same as you. Maybe you need to stop defending Shotokan no matter what the evidence so we can have a good discussion as well.
Yes, but I know far more about Shotokan and it's application than you. Just as you know far more about Matsubayashi ryu than I do. No one has provided any evidence of anything. An ill informed and unconstructive criticism is not evidence against anything, it is just an expression of ignorance. You stated you think the movement in the kata were likely changed for sporting purposes and I've shown you that the oldest records of the movements which pre-date the karate sport scene show no significant changes. Youve admitted kata moves don't always mimic application exactly so there is no reason to expect that this movement must. You have stated that an exagerated movement can't have any application and I have sourced texts by an expert to show that it can. What evidence have I ignored in my blind defence of Shotokan??? And while your considering that, ask yourself what evidence you have ignored while trying to make a case for something that was never the thread topic.
Left to you a good debate would be "Shotokan kata are meaningless and don't work, Shorin ryu rules! End of thread."
Instead of trying to focus on what you deem useless why dont you try my suggestion of re-interpretting the 3 kata in question using matsubayashi movements? Or perhaps just provide some insight into how you use movements like the spinning footwork in Jiin or the double claw movements in Jitte?
There is so much here to be debated and yet all you can find to talk about is the (repeatedly shown to be) lame idea that none of it can work because it is exagerated Shotokan? What is the point?
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 04:47 PM
woah!, down boy! lol. i love shotokan as much as you do but this is turing into the same crap time and time again.
all i have to add is that im damn proud to be a shotokan guy and that evidence has a tendancy to favor your point. we all have evidence to back up our claims here. even if we're not sure if any one even has the "info" anymore.
Shonuff, i would ask you if you posibly think that taking "x" tone with med will acheieve anything.
why can't we all just continue in our own ignorant bliss to train our little hearts out in our own dojo's.
my biggest beef with these "debates" is that funakoshi never really did teach "that" mch bunkai. i know he did teach a fair ammount, but thats not good enough to alot of people. if theree the smallest hole in the story its all wrong. the shotokan (some of it anyway) of today is far removed from what funakoshi taught, so far infact that i don't realy consider him the father of my shotokan, i consider Hideataka Nishiyama my karate pops.
from what i can gather the martial arts are similar to just about everything else. i mean, this is close to telling someone that their religon is wrong (prays to mods not to ban his ass for saying religon), we need to take into consideration other peoples reactions before we talk stuff that we know will offend or set off other people. and im not talking "sugar coat" what your saying, im sick of hearing that pompas line, im saying show some respect and watch what you say. its not imtent, its imapct, now play nice my children.
yours in life
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 05:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzWNg1xUtZQhttp://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/002/001.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7W3FwdmG1Ihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHbK3_4awwFirst thing shonuff I don’t want a major argument. But I have been this way before.
I don’t think medulanet is shotokan bashing. More like going back to the original roots of karate, and poss adding some workable modern stuff as well. Perhaps Im speaking out of turn here .. I keep an open mind. The way the kata you described are practiced arent in my eyes original there fore the concepts arent either. (yeah I know here comes a massive argument that I can do without)
Now Im coming from the same angle as your self in a lot of ways. The object for me is go back to karate roots and workable techniques and concept’s and re think what I have. But it isn’t my business at this moment in time to lecture someone else.
So I wont
Discussion perhaps?
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 05:37 PM
I am not looking to argue, I'm looking to debate the thread topic. I have asked in every post for contributions to the thread topic.
Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu. Buy it. It is the oldest written record of what Funakoshi taught and probably one of the oldest written records of Karate.
Jude, whatever the kata are in your eyes, the only evidence we mortals are privy to says that the kata we have currently are almost identical with only superficial differences. If you or anyone has evidence of versions of Jion Jitte or Jiin that pre-date what is shown in this book or that are more original, I would genuinely love to see it for my own research and study.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 05:45 PM
Student,
it has been many years since I limited my study of Shotokan to what was passed down from Nakayama. It has been even more years since I thought that most of the adjustments made to solo forms made a huge difference to the nature of Shotokan. What is underneath is more important and it has not significantly changed.
Look back over my posts to Medulanet. If you can find any statements that are untrue either due to the external references I've made or to what has been previously said in this thread then I will happily hear it and correct myself.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 07:26 PM
Quote:
I am not looking to argue, I'm looking to debate the thread topic. I have asked in every post for contributions to the thread topic.
Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu. Buy it. It is the oldest written record of what Funakoshi taught and probably one of the oldest written records of Karate.
Jude, whatever the kata are in your eyes, the only evidence we mortals are privy to says that the kata we have currently are almost identical with only superficial differences. If you or anyone has evidence of versions of Jion Jitte or Jiin that pre-date what is shown in this book or that are more original, I would genuinely love to see it for my own research and study.
Hi
I dont have the originals what I meant was that the katas displayed seem to have the techniques somehow changed rather than appearing as somewhat functional techniques.
I have described what I think a part of the kata might be.
What is your or anybodys elses thoughts on the bunkia and as it would seem the katas have been changed then I should imagine infering bunkia etc would be difficult.
I dont realy want to go into the history of karate but I prefer(at the moment) to stick with the Okinawan karate as opposed to Japanese influenced karate. Nothing personal but the more I see of the okinawans and okinawan karate the more sense karate makes
Funokoshi (and all due respect to him) took the art to Japan
In order to sell the idea to the Japanese perhaps changes were made? who knows?Certainly It has been stated that his son and others after him had changed things in Japanese karate. There will be more clued up historians out there than myself.I am only going by what I know and what I think I can see in the kata you posted are somewhat unfunctional techniques. Dont get me wrong, I said I think. There will be others more knowledable than myself who might give a different opinion
Im open minded
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 09:32 PM
Sho
I understand you would like to have a free ranging discussion on the application of some of Soken's movements or the 'J' kata.
You're asking a lot at one bite.
Just take Jion. Certainly I can scrap up interpretations of what I might see in the movements, but I don't know how others trainn. In my case I have never taught a kata that i haven't practiced at least 5 years first, and most of my application studies have been on kata I've done for decades.
I regret there is seems to be an instant application for a movement as a general idea, such as I'm learning Jion, quick give me the applications.
I don't have a student formally study a kata's applications without years of work on the kata first. For one thing that is how I was trained by instructors in different systems of study. As I see it the first goal of kata study is to perfect the energy movement of the kata. Trying to find a way to make the movments work before you can do them adequately (which really isn't easy from my studies) only makes you doing sloppy technique, and why spend the time on that.
Then when you have a modicum of technique, say in 5 years, you can begin to approach the application study.
I'll use one of your exmaples. Say Jion at secons 20 and 26.
There is a wedging block followed by a front kick then a lead hand strike followed by a double strike.
What is the technique? If you front kick anyone you won't be striking them because if you hit they're flying back or down. But if your front kick is a deception to move past them and the returning chamber is the actual strike behind their knee to buckle it and drive them forward then they are moving into that following lead hand strike and even the potential of the two following strikes. But each techinque is a multiiple waza in itself. Is that front kick really a side of the ribs shin stirke?
There are innumerable potential answers. but these are just words, there is training to bind the kata into the range of attacks you percieve, then moving to more freesparing to apply those same technques against random attacks.
Potentially any movement of any kata can be used any way you train to use it. In reality you will choose the hanful that fit your mindset and sell them against almost any attack, and some of the movements you will never choose to use. But you practice the kata, if you become an instructor one of your students may choose to make other choices in their art.
On the whole I respect Shotokan to the utmost degree simply because one of my instrutors is better than almost anyone I've seen. Of course his 'bunkai' dosen't fit this discussion, his answers are kakushite, and unless you spend a lonng time training with him you won't get them, period.
But as an Isshinryu stylist, the most difficult aspect of shotokan are the back stances. There are no back stances in Isshinryu. It makes application analysis of Shotokan (and akin systems) more difficult. My Shotokan instructor using kata as a physical training tool never had that problem, his 'bunkai' were just thouands of techniques, not kata application studies.
Trying to take the "J" kata and interpret them within the Chinese traditions, or tomari traditions (and how do you define tomari traditions anyways) makes a complicated task infinitely more complex.
Just my perceptions on this.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 10:55 PM
Hello Victor,
thanks for another valuable contribution. I realise that your philosophy of applying kata is very different to mine and in all honesty I expected to recieve far less from you than I have in this discussion for that reason alone.
I realise discussing three unfamiliar kata and how they fit together is not easy and alot to think about, but the way I'm thinking is that we would get through it one post at a time. After all there's no time limit and I had envisioned an ever expanding library of theories and information as karateka of different styles brought together theories and concepts of analysis application and combat.
Your thoughts on the wedge block segment of jion were very interesting and I realise you could take it much deeper, but from what you said I infer the same core principle in applying that sequence, which then allows for as many waza variations as you care to think of.
Let me just run with this a moment in the spirit of getting the thread back on track which you started.
If we try and relate that principle from the wedge block sequence through all three kata, we find no wedge block in jion with which to apply it. The closest equivalent I see (the only overt leg tech in the kata) is in the raised knee stepping in Yama kamae. So if these kata segments are linked it is reasonable to assume that at this point in Jitte our hand/s are engaged with the enemy in such a way as restrain him and so a leg technique is required to unbalance/injure the opponent. This then gives us a basis to understand the application of the yama kamae and its use in the sequence.
In Jiin we are using the same wedge block movement as Jion but with a twin gedan-chudan blocking action instead of a third punch. Where such dual handed action doesnt reach very far and employs both limbs in a potentially defensive manner they imply to me close quarter fighting, either some form of trapping or a joint lock. This then allows us to return to Jion and say that whatever the applications it would seem that full arm extension is a requirement, giving us a limiting factor to the applications and an approriate distance with which to work at least a portion of Jion's technique.
As for Back stance, it took me a long time to figure it out, partly because the answer to what its for went very against the grain of what I knew to be good technique. I had to broaden my understanding of things quite considerably. Kenneth Funakoshi admits to not liking the back stance and changes it to front stance for his more combative applications.
For yourself and others from non Shotokan styles Kokutsu dachi most easily translates into Neko-ashi dachi, cat stance. Picture cat stance and all that you know about it and it may help with viewing these and other kata.
Once again Victor many thanks for your continuing contribution, it is very much appreciated.
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/16/07 11:25 PM
Quote:
Show me evidence of a thriving sport karate scene that was active in 1925 and supported by Funakoshi to the point where he would alter kata to suit the judges needs, and I will consider that these movements may have been altered for sport.
Well, there are the little known sports of Judo and Kendo. Ever heard of them? They were alive and well at that time. In fact, it was the Kodokan which awarded Funakoshi his fifth dan. Judo came about to eliminate the more dangerous techniques from the JJJ and make it a more palitable activity for the modern Japanese. Would this same Kodokan award Fuankoshi a fifth dan for an art as brutal as the okinawan karate he learned from Azato and Itosu? Or would they accept a more tame version which was altered for sport the same way JJJ was altered to create Judo? It seems that no matter what point I make you will see what you want. The only Shotokan I have seen that makes sense to me is that of Vince Morris. So if yours is like his then your Shotokan probably is what you say it is.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 12:04 AM
shunoff wrote:
Quote:
the kata we have currently are almost identical with only superficial differences.
The main point I've been making is to be mindful of what is superficial and what are the differences.
You also need to come up with your set of assumptions in order to frame your analysis of the kata. general assumptions like this: 'a kick in kata can be a knee strike in application'. 'most principles are for very close-in range interpretation'. 'straight punches are not always striking with the fist'. 'closed hand in kata may be interpreted as open, and vice-versa'.
etc.
But more important, to make those kinds of assumptions takes either direct instruction from someone who teaches how principles in kata can be extracted...or lots of years working ideas with a partner and figuring it out + crosstraining adjacent arts and economies of movement.
the way you aren't going to get it is with books, forums, google and not looking outside modern Japanese versions of Okinawan kata systems.
It's a fact Shotokan and every other is built from other arts...no Art is created - only blended from other arts. The J-kata you want to study are pre-Shotokan kata. They likely existed on Okinawa well before Shotokan was established in Japan. If Funakoshi didn't document in detail the principles to extract for 2-person training with these kata then it could only mean:
1. He didn't know or teach the principles.
or
2. He wanted that part of study to be transmitted in person, not via text.
You can deny Funakoshi's likely reason for some of the economy of movement changes. hard and linear (with subtle curvature) is the Japanese look-n-feel ...as oppossed to soft, curvalinear and free-flowing in the overall image of Chinese systems.
Okinawan Arts are mostly Chinese-based. did Funakoshi want to bring a Chinese looking Art to Japan during a time when Japan was getting ready to invade Manchuria?
look at Japanese Budo...compare the stances.
long Zenkutsu dachi is like you would find in Kendo.
Shotokan's backstance is found in Iaido.
etc.
Big movement with hard linear intent is more the look and feel of a Japanese art.
see my point? the changes which gave Shotokan it's look and feel, I suspect, were changes made FOR that look and feel. why? situational politics. not changes made to further the application. Later, when Shotokan was plunged into the sport scene after Funakoshi's death, the style was further modified to accent it's distinctiveness of look and feel in kata, and optimized for long-range sparring.
Just recently, people in Shotokan Arts have been working hard to reverse that. the problem is, how do they keep their look and feel of distinctiveness while at the same time justifying effectiveness of the technique?
just my opinion. no need to flame it as bashing. It's not bashing if giving specific reasons for opinion.
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 03:19 AM
Quote:
Unsu,
You reason like a child and a petulant one at that.
New-age style nonsense about kata producing "mind-body balance" and pseudo-medicine that talks about "training my sinews" just sends my BS monitor off the dial.
Like I said, telling everyone else that they do a "pseudo form" but yours and the applications you learn are the one and only real deal is tedious and naive. I have seen a million like you over the years. Unless you know the original kata creator and he taught you personally or it is recorded unambiguously in writing from time of creation (and it is not!), then everything that you learn is supposition. It may be right, it may be wrong, it may work or not but whatever it is, it is unproveable as the original intent of the kata. Indeed there are so many variations on the same kata be they Shotokan or the Okinawan styles or kung fu patterns that it is almost impossible to describe any as original outright, just different people's take on things.
Unlike you, I do not claim to have the ultimate truth or interpretation, only what works for me, which is far more important.
It is a pity that you have never applied your evident scepticism to what you have been taught and told yourself (hence parroting plain gibberish such as the stuff about sinews) and to what you say to others.
B.
Hahaha! So attack the messenger not the message. I am far from a New Age type. I am a scientist through-and-through. I believe in ideas based upon an experiential foundation and empirical thought. I can give you the science behind "proper sinew training", but I doubt you'd understand. So I give it to you in laymen's terms. You cannot know if the form training you do is for life-preservation if you do the forms in a superficial manner with no inherent application to them. The use of sound, proper biomechanics and strengthening of the body beyond muscle training is not a New Age idea at all. Btw what do you know of science now that you want to claim that I'm some New Age kook? Can you explain that ridiculous pic of that guy with his rear hand extended above his head? WTF is that all about, in Shotokan bunkai terms?
Old Age. New Age. I'm talking about your progenitor, Machimura Seito Sui-Di, not middle school kids karate. This is what you are ignoring.
You know weijia and neijia chuan fa practitioners have known of these things for hundreds of years. They use terms like chi/ki, sinews and so on. Modern science uses modern terms. It's all the same in the end. Okinawan karate still has a lot of that "Sino" aspect to it. Shotokan does not. I expect you to tell me about the effectiveness of Shotokan's linear speedy philosophy, not about strengthening tendons and other connective tissues. You guys NEVER had that in your curriculum. Unless of course you learned from a guy like Kanazawa who studied Tai Chi and Okinawan karate.
That is why you guys are searching and "reinventing" the wheel so to speak. I know there are very good Shotokan-ka out there. They can use their karate quite effectively. So can most green belt level karate people in the world. It goes beyond life-protection for practitioners of good Okinawan karate. If you guys are of that variety then why do you ask so many questions about your kata? Aren't you yudansha who have more than a superficial understanding of real karate? Why do you need any validation at all? You don't see me on here asking what aspects of my karate training are gendai, Japanese, Okinawan or Chinese. I know these things and I feel that the way I've been taught in many things in my life have been conveyed by true masters of very good artforms. Some seek the best to learn the most, others are satisfied with the above-average or below to understand what it is they are learning or think they should know. The structure and composition of the world shows this.
It is and has been fashionable to claim that all karate will get you to the top of the mountain. I agree. My question is which mountain? Nothing is really equal when it comes down to it. Some things are more salient than others. Some styles are great, some really suck and most fall somewhere in the middle. It's life. It's the way of nature.
I know Shotokan is one of the most popular forms of karate. That tells me that it's ubiquity puts most of its schools somewhere right in the middle. That's a good thing. You could be doing some hodge-podge, potpourri style at your local mini-mall. Be satisfied if you are really good at that type of karate. From your experiential observation and training you are satisfied that what you do is very good and real, right?
You want to attack me that's fine. You want to ASSume you know me and what it is I do, or what I know without having a clue beyond your karate- that's cool. I've done Japanized karate just like you do. Have you researched or trained in a good Okinawan style in order to better understand what Funakoshi's karate was like before almost everything about it was changed? If you do that then I doubt you would be able to say a d-mned thing about "sinew" training and training for a long-life.
Btw how are genes turned on or off in the body? Is there a reason that the Okinawans as a people live longer than most even their Japanese cousins? Your karate serves its purposes. Japanese karate can be a good fighting karate. Japanese karate- even Shotokan- is not Okinawan karate, but it is closer than say TKD. Be proud. Don't diss me because I give you my opinion.
Also I feel that there some great karate people and martial artists on here. Butterfly knows good karate, and he does a Japanese style. Medula' definitely knows real karate. Shoshinkan does too. Ed has been searching and he is starting to see what it is some os are speaking of. Hedkikr seems like he knows what's up. Shonuff obviously does good karate, and he is actively seeking to know more. I bet you can squab' as they say. Your karate is probably real tight. Even Chen Zen knows what's real and what ain't. No doubt he can use his MAs very well.
The list goes on and on. I respect a lot of folks on here, but my "role" is as someone who will defend good old-style karate. Even the majority of folks I use to train with get P.O.'d at me. So the f-ck what? I'm a 38 year old man who knows what's real and what isn't. I will not have someone come at me with a presumptuous attitude when they have no clue about this unknown quantity.
Oh, btw that video of Soken doing Chinto was done when the guy was already pretty old. If you know the form you will see that there are movements missing, like the kneeling movement after the last throw (what you Nipponese types call "manji uke"). Soken adapted his kata to his age. He lived for more than 90 years. Take that form with a grain of salt. Matsumura Sokon wrote "adapt to change", not "change because you want to". If you Shotokan types did the kata as seen in "Karate Jutsu", then you would never be asking all this stuff about Jion, Jitte and so on. Too bad Funakoshi had to make his Okinawan Art palatable to the Japanese. Much of its original intent and application was lost after that.
Also don't think that because he (Soken) does a more moderate version of that "swastika" (I hate that name for a tech and I bet you do to- but it is what you Shotokan guys call it) movement that the same lessons are imparted. I read Shonuff's explanation of manji uke and I can say that the Okinawan don't even use that term. They just say, "this hand here, this hand here, then throw on face". He can only "parrot" what he's been taught or guess at it.
Like I said smart alleck you do you and I'll da-ned sure do me. I have no complaints at all about my karate and I don't have to adjust my stance or footwork or techs to fit real analysis. Do you? Ex-friggin'-zactly dude...
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 05:03 AM
Quote:
Hahaha! So attack the messenger not the message. I am far from a New Age type. I am a scientist through-and-through. I believe in ideas based upon an experiential foundation and empirical thought. I can give you the science behind "proper sinew training", but I doubt you'd understand. So I give it to you in laymen's terms. You cannot know if the form training you do is for life-preservation if you do the forms in a superficial manner with no inherent application to them. The use of sound, proper biomechanics and strengthening of the body beyond muscle training is not a New Age idea at all. Btw what do you know of science now that you want to claim that I'm some New Age kook? Can you explain that ridiculous pic of that guy with his rear hand extended above his head? WTF is that all about, in Shotokan bunkai terms?
Old Age. New Age. I'm talking about your progenitor, Machimura Seito Sui-Di, not middle school kids karate. This is what you are ignoring.
You know weijia and neijia chuan fa practitioners have known of these things for hundreds of years. They use terms like chi/ki, sinews and so on. Modern science uses modern terms. It's all the same in the end. Okinawan karate still has a lot of that "Sino" aspect to it. Shotokan does not. I expect you to tell me about the effectiveness of Shotokan's linear speedy philosophy, not about strengthening tendons and other connective tissues. You guys NEVER had that in your curriculum. Unless of course you learned from a guy like Kanazawa who studied Tai Chi and Okinawan karate.
That is why you guys are searching and "reinventing" the wheel so to speak. I know there are very good Shotokan-ka out there. They can use their karate quite effectively. So can most green belt level karate people in the world. It goes beyond life-protection for practitioners of good Okinawan karate. If you guys are of that variety then why do you ask so many questions about your kata? Aren't you yudansha who have more than a superficial understanding of real karate? Why do you need any validation at all? You don't see me on here asking what aspects of my karate training are gendai, Japanese, Okinawan or Chinese. I know these things and I feel that the way I've been taught in many things in my life have been conveyed by true masters of very good artforms. Some seek the best to learn the most, others are satisfied with the above-average or below to understand what it is they are learning or think they should know. The structure and composition of the world shows this.
It is and has been fashionable to claim that all karate will get you to the top of the mountain. I agree. My question is which mountain? Nothing is really equal when it comes down to it. Some things are more salient than others. Some styles are great, some really suck and most fall somewhere in the middle. It's life. It's the way of nature.
I know Shotokan is one of the most popular forms of karate. That tells me that it's ubiquity puts most of its schools somewhere right in the middle. That's a good thing. You could be doing some hodge-podge, potpourri style at your local mini-mall. Be satisfied if you are really good at that type of karate. From your experiential observation and training you are satisfied that what you do is very good and real, right?
You want to attack me that's fine. You want to ASSume you know me and what it is I do, or what I know without having a clue beyond your karate- that's cool. I've done Japanized karate just like you do. Have you researched or trained in a good Okinawan style in order to better understand what Funakoshi's karate was like before almost everything about it was changed? If you do that then I doubt you would be able to say a d-mned thing about "sinew" training and training for a long-life.
Btw how are genes turned on or off in the body? Is there a reason that the Okinawans as a people live longer than most even their Japanese cousins? Your karate serves its purposes. Japanese karate can be a good fighting karate. Japanese karate- even Shotokan- is not Okinawan karate, but it is closer than say TKD. Be proud. Don't diss me because I give you my opinion.
Also I feel that there some great karate people and martial artists on here. Butterfly knows good karate, and he does a Japanese style. Medula' definitely knows real karate. Shoshinkan does too. Ed has been searching and he is starting to see what it is some os are speaking of. Hedkikr seems like he knows what's up. Shonuff obviously does good karate, and he is actively seeking to know more. I bet you can squab' as they say. Your karate is probably real tight. Even Chen Zen knows what's real and what ain't. No doubt he can use his MAs very well.
The list goes on and on. I respect a lot of folks on here, but my "role" is as someone who will defend good old-style karate. Even the majority of folks I use to train with get P.O.'d at me. So the f-ck what? I'm a 38 year old man who knows what's real and what isn't. I will not have someone come at me with a presumptuous attitude when they have no clue about this unknown quantity.
Oh, btw that video of Soken doing Chinto was done when the guy was already pretty old. If you know the form you will see that there are movements missing, like the kneeling movement after the last throw (what you Nipponese types call "manji uke"). Soken adapted his kata to his age. He lived for more than 90 years. Take that form with a grain of salt. Matsumura Sokon wrote "adapt to change", not "change because you want to". If you Shotokan types did the kata as seen in "Karate Jutsu", then you would never be asking all this stuff about Jion, Jitte and so on. Too bad Funakoshi had to make his Okinawan Art palatable to the Japanese. Much of its original intent and application was lost after that.
Also don't think that because he (Soken) does a more moderate version of that "swastika" (I hate that name for a tech and I bet you do to- but it is what you Shotokan guys call it) movement that the same lessons are imparted. I read Shonuff's explanation of manji uke and I can say that the Okinawan don't even use that term. They just say, "this hand here, this hand here, then throw on face". He can only "parrot" what he's been taught or guess at it.
Like I said smart alleck you do you and I'll da-ned sure do me. I have no complaints at all about my karate and I don't have to adjust my stance or footwork or techs to fit real analysis. Do you? Ex-friggin'-zactly dude...
Some excellent points but surely if people are looking for
other things in their art (how ever ambiguously they go about it) then isnt that a good thing?
By the way I find your posts good and you have a way of expressing your self and putting over your points in an extremely enjoyable way.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 07:17 AM
Hi Unsu,
well said my friend, border line of course...........LOL
'It is and has been fashionable to claim that all karate will get you to the top of the mountain. I agree. My question is which mountain?'
Im so with you on that one, the more karateka I meet, the more 'weird' I seem to feel.............still thats fine, I like my mountain!
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 08:13 AM
Quote:
shunoff wrote:
Quote:
the kata we have currently are almost identical with only superficial differences.
The main point I've been making is to be mindful of what is superficial and what are the differences.
Trust me I am. This is not my first day researching Shotokan Kata.
Quote:
You also need to come up with your set of assumptions in order to frame your analysis of the kata. general assumptions like this: 'a kick in kata can be a knee strike in application'. 'most principles are for very close-in range interpretation'. 'straight punches are not always striking with the fist'. 'closed hand in kata may be interpreted as open, and vice-versa'.
Being aware of the level of expertise and understanding held by most of the posters on this board I did not stipulate this as I thought it was understood and I felt no need to patronise or instruct.
Quote:
But more important, to make those kinds of assumptions takes either direct instruction from someone who teaches how principles in kata can be extracted...or lots of years working ideas with a partner and figuring it out + crosstraining adjacent arts and economies of movement.
the way you aren't going to get it is with books, forums, google and not looking outside modern Japanese versions of Okinawan kata systems.
Like that.
Quote:
It's a fact Shotokan and every other is built from other arts...no Art is created - only blended from other arts. The J-kata you want to study are pre-Shotokan kata. They likely existed on Okinawa well before Shotokan was established in Japan. If Funakoshi didn't document in detail the principles to extract for 2-person training with these kata then it could only mean:
1. He didn't know or teach the principles.
or
2. He wanted that part of study to be transmitted in person, not via text.
One of my points has been that Funakoshi documented more than people realise some of it is only in photo's but it is enough. The J-kata surely did exist pre-shotokan. But there is no record of them so the point is moot. I would love to have an older set of these kata to work with but their arent any in existence. Those with knowledge of old style Karate like Med and Unsu are best placed to construct old style replica's but so far have chosen not to do so, and fair enough it would prove nothing as we don't know what may have been added or removed. With lack of evidence of anything else I am working on the assumption that those kata that are around are as original as it gets. Now the issue you seem to have with this is that being shotokan kata, they MUST have been altered for no useful purpose completely obscuring any application. Well I am telling you as someone who has spent far more time than is feasible studying this subject that you need not worry, none of the changes that we know were made remove the potential for application in these kata.
Quote:
You can deny Funakoshi's likely reason for some of the economy of movement changes. hard and linear (with subtle curvature) is the Japanese look-n-feel ...as oppossed to soft, curvalinear and free-flowing in the overall image of Chinese systems.
Okinawan Arts are mostly Chinese-based. did Funakoshi want to bring a Chinese looking Art to Japan during a time when Japan was getting ready to invade Manchuria?
look at Japanese Budo...compare the stances.
long Zenkutsu dachi is like you would find in Kendo.
Shotokan's backstance is found in Iaido.
etc.
I don't deny anything. The difference is I don't claim to know why Itosu and/or Funakoshi made the changes they did, where people who clearly have not studied the art claim they do. What I say is that the changes, even up to those introduced by Nakayama, do not remove application from the forms. I like most Shotokanka became dissilusioned early on in my training, feeling I was practicing japanised kids karate etc etc... but I made the effort to study and research the art on my own, including cross training, training with very senior people, looking at older karate styles, joining research groups. I came to realise that there was still plenty of perfectly valid application to be gleened from Shotokan kata. So after all that work and study and training and having gained the understanding of, and the ability to practically apply the kata of Shotokan why should I listen to people whose basic point is that I cannot have done what I have.
Lets take the stances. It is written, though I can't remember in which text, long stances are for beginners, short stances for advanced. If that isn't setting a precedent for the adjustment of form for the sake of application then what is? I totally agree, stances were elongated to fit japanese budo. So what. If you understand that it is for training purposes and you can apply the technique in shorter stances you havent lost anything. Even if you don't, long stances worked fine for the Shoalin. If you take the time to study and train their usage you will be just as effective. This is proven fact.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 08:26 AM
Jim, I forget if the J-katas are part of the Seito-M. Shorin org that Bryan(Unsu) and you share. Did H. Soken teach these kata? If so, maybe one of you gentlemen could point them to it's form, it might be a good direction of research for the people asking in this thread.
these might give some ideas as to 'economy of movement' and a different shape of things as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPJyhEGfsQ4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzRmm0r_fAEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHz5hK_aOUghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBdkOYQGoEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo0V8gdCWt4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 08:30 AM
Quote:
Well, there are the little known sports of Judo and Kendo. Ever heard of them? They were alive and well at that time. In fact, it was the Kodokan which awarded Funakoshi his fifth dan. Judo came about to eliminate the more dangerous techniques from the JJJ and make it a more palitable activity for the modern Japanese. Would this same Kodokan award Fuankoshi a fifth dan for an art as brutal as the okinawan karate he learned from Azato and Itosu? Or would they accept a more tame version which was altered for sport the same way JJJ was altered to create Judo? It seems that no matter what point I make you will see what you want. The only Shotokan I have seen that makes sense to me is that of Vince Morris. So if yours is like his then your Shotokan probably is what you say it is.
I asked for evidence, not supposition. You say I see what I want despite your points, but I at least source evidence to refute what you say and support my own beliefs. Come on Med, I mean seriously, you want to say that because Judo and Kendo existed Funakoshi's Karate had to have been gentle and applicationless? And by the way, Jigoro Kano said he created Judo in order to systemise and streamline the Jujutsu he knew.
Does this mean you've given up the idea that the J-kata were altered to make competition judging easier?
Well I'll let the flip to another justification slip and answer the attempt at a point.
I never said Funakoshi went to Japan tearing hearts out of folks chests. I never said the art he brought had any overt shows of brutality or that Funakoshi chose to display it by smacking peoples jaws off. I said that the art he brought over and the subsequent changes that were made to it did not lose the potential of the art to be applied effectively as a fighting art.
I dont get why my Shotokan MUST be like Vince Morris's, or as you've implied previously, must be like Shorin ryu? I don't say that it is or isn't, but couldnt it just be effective and unique? Are their only one or two ways of fighting effectively?
It's not that I ignore your points, it's that you don't make any. As I said point to anything untrue that I've stated or anything you have said that I have ignored and I will address it. Conversely it would be nice if you would address the points I have made and tell me why you don't feel they are valid or true??
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/17/07 08:39 AM
no. I don't claim to know. just throwing in some ideas to consider. sorry if it sounded like I was anything more than 'searching'.
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 12:58 AM
Quote:
Jim, I forget if the J-katas are part of the Seito-M. Shorin org that Bryan(Unsu) and you share. Did H. Soken teach these kata? If so, maybe one of you gentlemen could point them to it's form, it might be a good direction of research for the people asking in this thread.
these might give some ideas as to 'economy of movement' and a different shape of things as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPJyhEGfsQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzRmm0r_fAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHz5hK_aOUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBdkOYQGoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo0V8gdCWt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs
That would be hard as the kata you guys are speaking of come from Tomari-Te. We do Shuri-Te kata for the most part:
Pinan Shodan, Nidan and Sandan (supplementary)
Naihanchi Shodan, Nidan and Sandan (supplementary)
Seisan
Patsai Sho and Dai
Chinto
Gojushiho
Rohai (a minor and major version)
Kusanku (Mei)
Hakutsuru
Rohai is a Tomari kata. Our version is Hohan Soken's version with Seito stances and waza. Ananku can be learned as well as Wansu and the rest of the Pinan. These are all additional forms; our core forms are the first 2 Pinan and Naihanchi and the rest of the kata I listed. More than enough forms for this lifetime.
If you want more original versions of these forms ask a Kobayashi Ryu yudansha. They include these Tomari kata in their curriculum.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 04:48 AM
Quote:
Jim, I forget if the J-katas are part of the Seito-M. Shorin org that Bryan(Unsu) and you share. Did H. Soken teach these kata? If so, maybe one of you gentlemen could point them to it's form, it might be a good direction of research for the people asking in this thread.
these might give some ideas as to 'economy of movement' and a different shape of things as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPJyhEGfsQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzRmm0r_fAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHz5hK_aOUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBdkOYQGoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo0V8gdCWt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs
Hi Ed,
as Bryan has kindly said no the kata do not feature in our system's.
my kata follows this group -
Pinan Sho/Ni
Naihanchi Sho/Ni
Seisan
Passai
Chinto
Useishi
Kushanku
Hakkutsuru
We have many other supporting kata avalaible, but I don't work many of those as im only interestd in the core system, more than enough for me!
I do retain and play with sanchin, but more from a centering/energy and internal/external development kata, I shall be about ready to settle with it in another 5 years or so........
The links are interesting, I have seen them before and whilst I may not demonstrate it so well, for the camera the dynamics of what we do is somewhat different from more mainstream modern Japanese karate.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 09:42 AM
Ok, I have found a version of Jion that is more Okinawan, although I can't tell if it is in fact a Kobayashi organisation, The main Kobayashi org I found don't practice the J-kata.
http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&a...q%3Dkyudokan.usAs you can see it is hugely different and far more functional than previously displayed versions so I'm sure you all will have no trouble deciphering it's secrets.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 10:35 AM
Quote:
The links are interesting, I have seen them before and whilst I may not demonstrate it so well, for the camera the dynamics of what we do is somewhat different from more mainstream modern Japanese karate.
which links did I give show 'mainstream modern Japanese karate' ?
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 10:44 AM
Quote:
Ok, I have found a version of Jion that is more Okinawan, although I can't tell if it is in fact a Kobayashi organisation, The main Kobayashi org I found don't practice the J-kata.
http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&a...q%3Dkyudokan.us
As you can see it is hugely different and far more functional than previously displayed versions so I'm sure you all will have no trouble deciphering it's secrets.
Hi Shonuff
Far be it for me to get into an argument but shouldnt you be analising this kata?It is in your "styles" syllabus and
After all its your discusion.
How about you analise what you think then I will state what I think? I can certainly infer open handed attack to the throat plus toe/ kick to the groin in there
Im somewhat busy analising kata I am working on with headaches.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 12:50 PM
Jude, A discussion requires input from more than one party and the point of a discussion is to gain insight from different perspectives. I have put forward contributions towards an analysis, re-read the thread and you will find them, I would be happy to hear your comments on them.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 03:45 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The links are interesting, I have seen them before and whilst I may not demonstrate it so well, for the camera the dynamics of what we do is somewhat different from more mainstream modern Japanese karate.
which links did I give show 'mainstream modern Japanese karate' ?
my bad Ed, I wasn't refering to the links, just a general point about authentic Okinawan karate being different to Japanese karate in general mate.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 09:11 PM
my misunderstanding. not looking for an argument and I appologize to the thread-bearer for being off-topic, but what is 'authentic'? is it by lineage? or by apparent effectiveness towards an assumed goal? or recognition by an Okinawan asociation? or by location of where it's taught? or mimicing what you'd imagine authentic to look like?
(I'm being difficult, not to be an instigator...but just to provoke thinking. who knows, the chain of thought could very well tie into the topic after all)
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/18/07 09:15 PM
Quote:
my misunderstanding. not looking for an argument and I appologize to the thread-bearer for being off-topic, but what is 'authentic'? is it by lineage? or by apparent effectiveness towards an assumed goal? or recognition by an Okinawan asociation? or by location of where it's taught? or mimicing what you'd imagine authentic to look like?
(I'm being difficult, not to be an instigator...but just to provoke thinking. who knows, the chain of thought could very well tie into the topic after all)
Hi Ed, no worries, well im no authority on what authentic is,
I guess we all have our own ideas. For me it is essentially centered around training the art for it's origional purpose, and to have recognition of the Okinawan culture within the practice and ethos of the system. Obviously all of that is balanced with the reality that we live in 2007.
Different folks, different strokes I guess!
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 12:03 AM
Training with 'original purpose' and selective culture is problematic. First, we have to choose how far back to go.
Can you guess what the Toudi, training method and culture of Sokon Matsumura was like for example?
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 02:50 AM
Quote:
Training with 'original purpose' and selective culture is problematic. First, we have to choose how far back to go.
Can you guess what the Toudi, training method and culture of Sokon Matsumura was like for example?
first off my apologies for the thread derailment guys, my bad.
To awnser Ed, of course it's problematic, but im happy with having that problem, as is my Sensei who has spent the last 30 plus years with this dilema.
Whilst I agree that some of what we do is 'guess' work (due to lack of records and information), im fairly convinced that it's in the right direction, to be straight talking in comparison to mainstream karatedo.
And we don't sell what we do, so it's just for us and those interested, it's not a perfect awnser Ed, but it's an honest one.
Proberly best to start another thread if you want to discuss this further my friend.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 06:56 AM
quite alright Jim. my fault for the side-track. the trail of thought leads to, as you say, opinion.
trying to tie it on-topic....the questions to the thread is, can you use your opinion to utilize your J-katas for your intended purpose?
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 07:16 AM
The J kata's have never featured in my training so my opinion and thoughts wouldn't be of much use im afraid.
sure I could say some stuff but I would rather not, saving comments for stuff I actually work is much better for my time, with respect to all concerned.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 07:46 AM
'your', meaning not you specifically, Jim. to anyone studying kata within a system.
In general, we all find an interpretation that works for us. The reason it works, or doesn't, is based on what we assume the kata is for and how it fits into our system (training method).
is the assumption that the system is for being a royal palace guard? civil protection? sparring and scoring points? health & folk art tradition? moving meditation/therepy?
whatever the reason thats chosen, the kata should be understood in that larger context. regardless of the history. make it work for it's purpose....or don't.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 08:19 AM
Unsu,
I certainly seem to have touched a sinew.
I am sorry that you are so disparaging about Soken's Chinto, which I enjoyed. Your implication that meaningful kata can only be performed by young, fit people suggests that you dwell on the external appearance, not the application or intent to which you otherwise bizarrely claim sole ownership. Obviously it is your right to practice kata for balance, work-life balance, sinew strengthening or whatever, although I doubt that that is how they were viewed originally, except perhaps as happy byproducts.My view is that the kata are no more than pneumonics for fighting techniques, which once learnt need practice against a resisting opponent.
Likewise your preoccupation with what to call manji uke is telling (swastikas have been around a lot longer than Nazism by the way and the term does not bother me)-call it a flying pink marshmallow and it is still the same and has the same possible intents.
Overall I am entirely uninterested in being told how great your karate is and how terrible is anything else. You can hardly whine that you are judged by your own comments when you make sweeping judgements about everyone else. What I was interested in was comment-yours or anyone else's-on the specifics of these particular kata, which I think is what Shonuff was trying to elicit. If you have nothing to say about that, then why not look at a different thread?
B.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 12:45 PM
Quote:
.My view is that the kata are no more than pneumonics for fighting techniques, which once learnt need practice against a resisting opponent.
.
Overall I am entirely uninterested in being told how great your karate is and how terrible is anything else. You can hardly whine that you are judged by your own comments when you make sweeping judgements about everyone else. What I was interested in was comment-yours or anyone else's-on the specifics of these particular kata, which I think is what Shonuff was trying to elicit. If you have nothing to say about that, then why not look at a different thread?
B.
For your perusal
Sanchin increase in degree of difficulty as taijutsu according to the level of the proponent's skills. For example, in one year or so, you become able to apply the technique of shime (choking) to an intense degree. In the process of having to bear increased hardship and harshness, your mind should steadily move towards ascetic training, thereby fostering spiritual values. This will serve to develop your personality. So sanchin training at the level of taijutsu gradually progresses and you are able to prepare yourself for the storm of spiritual trials to come. All disciples of Uechi-ryukarate-do have to undergo the tough Sanchin Tanrenho exercises.
Naifanchi, which is a tanren kata of the Shuri-te style involves lateral movements and natural breathing techniques. The basic idea is that power exerted during inhalation is 'in vain', but that just before breathing out is 'practical'. The breathing technique and the way of receiving force relate to each other. It is supposed that one will be able to let the 'practical' moment meet the moment of attack and 'present force from the inside to the outside.' The kata is aimed at training one's own body strictly, and fostering a spiritual force as well as the perseverance to bear severe training. That's why it is said that 'Everything begins and ends with naifanchi' in the Shuri-te system
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/003/index.html
If you look at the website the karate ka practicing naifanchi are 66 and 68years old
The history ( I have read) about the Chinese arts that were taken to Okinawa is on the lines of life preservation by exercise and self defence and a whole heap of other things. Not just pure fighting techniques.
Jion is thought to have been developed from a Chinese monk? Well I would conclude that
it might not have been just a pure fighting technique kata maybe? . and from what I can gather from shotokan practitioner a present day training kata to strengthen the stances maybe?
So in effect unsu is taking part in this conversation.
by pointing out in his way that there is more to a kata than just fighting techniques.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 01:20 PM
Jude,
Your comments on Sanchin and Naihanchi are interesting-I would still describe those benefits as practical to fighting though. I am not saying that kata will/may not improve general health but I strongly suspect these are happy byproducts, not the reason for their creation.
As for "developing personality" or spiritual values, is that really why you practice kata? It all sounds a bit sinister and cultish to me. I have never yet met a karate teacher who actively sought to mould my personality or develop my spirit, whatever that may be, and I would be deeply suspicious of anyone who did try. I want practical skills, not the thoughts of some bloke who teaches karate, on life, the universe and everything...
I certainly do not accept the concept of "training katas" for the sole or even main purpose of strengthening. For this, there are and were a variety of weights, stones and the like. Parts of Jion have many uses, the least of which is leg strengthening, something better done at the gym.
The Jion individual monk story seems improbable to me, although it may hint at a Shaolin style origin, but in the absence of written records, who can say?
B.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 02:21 PM
Jude,
Are you familiar with Bob Redmond's website 24 Fighting Chickens?
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/articles/He has what I consider very sensible articles on the place (or not) of spirituality in karate. He has been practicing karate for several decades, speaks Japanese and spent some time training in Tokyo I believe, so he has some perspective.
B.
Posted by: HaterHater
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 04:53 PM
Quote:
Personally if I was practicing those kata I'd be more concerned with making them work than a historical answer....
What matters is what we can do with what we have now.
Victor, I completely agree with you. 
History, research, origin, etc. (while interesting to some) are academic...while practice is, well, practical! And if we can't put our arts into practice, then who cares where it came from!
Josh
Posted by: HaterHater
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/19/07 05:44 PM
[quoteBelow I've put links to the three kata in question, there are more versions on the first page but these are shown from multiple angles. The claw movement occurs in the first video (jitte) at 1 minute and 2 minutes and is repeated after each one-legged stance.
Found it! That's a technique I know well. I don't think it's a tiger-claw technique per-se (even though the hand positions are close), but it's very much the same as Long Fist. In Long Fist it is one of the basic techniques (that is to say, fundamental and important). I haven't come across quite the same thing in Southern Shaolin (at least not yet). The basic application as I learned it was that the lead hand "covers" an in-coming punch (from the outside) while the other hand palm-strikes to the chin (or grabs the throat). Once the "covering" is trained well it's a great technique...fast, simple and to-the-point. It also works well for moving in to grappling range. Here's a link to the basic Long Fist set "lianbu quan". Although I don't like the way this guy does Long Fist, you can at least see the technique at about the 10 second mark...right after a right punch, there's the technique immediately followed by the left arm swinging back up. Oh, and in this set the technique is done while stepping forward, which will make it different against an opponent than if you already have the left foot forward. When you step forward like that the "cover" of the left hand is on the opponents upper arm (needs to be done right!) and you move deep into grappling range.
LongFist-Lianbuquan
I'll take a look and try to find some other obvious overlapping techniques later. My internet connection is bleeping awful today...guess I'll just have to go practice some more.
Later,
Josh
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/20/07 04:09 AM
Quote:
Jude,
Your comments on Sanchin and Naihanchi are interesting-I would still describe those benefits as practical to fighting though. I am not saying that kata will/may not improve general health but I strongly suspect these are happy byproducts, not the reason for their creation.
My reading on history seems to indicate that the history ( I have read) about the Chinese arts that were taken to Okinawa is on the lines of life preservation by exercise and self defence and a whole heap of other things. Not just pure fighting techniques.
Perhaps its religion orientated I don’t know. If it is then its to far over my head to understand and even attempt to study and explain. Either way its there to study if you have a mind to.
Quote:
As for "developing personality" or spiritual values, is that really why you practice kata? It all sounds a bit sinister and cultish to me. I have never yet met a karate teacher who actively sought to mould my personality or develop my spirit, whatever that may be, and I would be deeply suspicious of anyone who did try.
If you maybe read up on the life of The late Sensei KEINOSUKE ENOEDA - SHOTOKAN
and his ways of installing indomitable spirit then this might give you food for thought.Kata might be part of this method
The comments by the way come from an okinwan site, they are not mine, maybe I didn’t make that clear enough .Did you look at the site with the video’s?
Personal trait changing in order for a person to progress?
Ok if we could take a hard street fight as an example.
The scenario is a person is walking home and is attacked by some drugged up idiot who is off his head. The attacked has no chance of running away for what ever reason.
The person who is attacked has some decent techniques,fitness, and some strength and has some experience of some form of full contact fighting but one trait he or she has is to give up when being pummeled hard(not being knocked out or injured just pummeled) to many times by an opponent. Should this persons instructor work on these traits? If so how?It is after all its a mental thing is it not. If the instructor succeeds and changes these traits what is that called? Building fighting spirit?
Okinawan karate( and now doubt other fighting methods) isnt that well known for the training methods of conditioning?
While performing the likes of sanchin etc? Isnt that a combination of physical and mental training?
Back to the self defence scenario? who has the better chance of winning? Just my thoughts.
Quote:
I want practical skills, not the thoughts of some bloke who teaches karate, on life, the universe and everything...
with out sounding like the guy from the old kung fu films but
perhaps with out the indomitable this might not be possible?
Who knows.
Quote:
I certainly do not accept the concept of "training katas" for the sole or even main purpose of strengthening. For this, there are and were a variety of weights, stones and the like. Parts of Jion have many uses, the least of which is leg strengthening, something better done at the gym.
I agree
Barad would you look at the videos posted on the website then we both know what we are discussing?
Ok maybe then to practice and strengthen the stances that should have read.
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/003/index.html
Kata for tanren?
Barad
They are not my comments, they come from an okinwan website.If you look at the website the karate ka practicing naifanchi are 66 and 68years old, these guys doing what they are doing at that age?If you look at the Uechi ryu
Sanseiryu kata on the website it is stated Seiko Toyama (Born December 25, 1928) Uechi-ryu (Hanshi 10th Dan)
Unless my maths has got out of hand
That is 66,68 and 79 years of age? These guys perform like 30 year olds
Food for thought maybe?
Either way I think that was what unsu was refering to.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/20/07 04:16 AM
Quote:
Jude,
Are you familiar with Bob Redmond's website 24 Fighting Chickens?
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/articles/
He has what I consider very sensible articles on the place (or not) of spirituality in karate. He has been practicing karate for several decades, speaks Japanese and spent some time training in Tokyo I believe, so he has some perspective.
B.
Barad there are a lot of articles on that website ?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/20/07 08:20 AM
Jude,
I am all for encouraging aggression and perseverance in training and application. I think what I dislike is the metaphysics, far beyond the realm of fighting, that some teachers presume to bring to their teaching and for which they are mostly unqualified.
As for Enoeda, he was certainly an aggressive and successful tournament fighter. I doubt he knew the first thing about bunkai, judging by his many books and articles. his apologists would of course say he was just keeping it hidden but if so then he kept it hidden from his senior isntructors by and large as well from what I saw, although some worked it out for themselves somewhat. I graded to first or second kyu with him back in the mid 80's as it happens. Now there was a man who liked to be revered and bowed to...
I will certainly look at those videos when I get a minute.
B.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/21/07 03:13 PM
Hi Josh
Many thanks for the info, I enjoyed watching the form and I did find it faintly reminiscent of the J-kata. Perhaps this is the mold from which these three kata were cut, or maybe the kata were sub-forms, training exercises to work on some of the core skils it teaches?
Total conjecture I know, but it is interesting.
Anymore thoughts would be appreciated.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/23/07 06:38 PM
Quote:
Hi Josh
Many thanks for the info, I enjoyed watching the form and I did find it faintly reminiscent of the J-kata. Perhaps this is the mold from which these three kata were cut, or maybe the kata were sub-forms, training exercises to work on some of the core skils it teaches?
Total conjecture I know, but it is interesting.
Anymore thoughts would be appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0&mode=related&search=
Ok I know it isnt kata(although looks straight from the Heins) and it is a demo but to me this does reflect some of trad shotokans methods? Thoughts?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/26/07 01:46 PM
Enoeda's first takedown is reminiscent of the hands turning the wheel application in Kanku Dai or the hands thrust out in Tekki or end of Jion (I think the Chinese call it "Fisherman Casts His Net"). But what is all that hands on the hips when not holding onto anything stuff!
Hikite is for holding, otherwise the guard should be up...
B.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/27/07 09:39 AM
Quote:
Enoeda's first takedown is reminiscent of the hands turning the wheel application in Kanku Dai or the hands thrust out in Tekki or end of Jion (I think the Chinese call it "Fisherman Casts His Net"). But what is all that hands on the hips when not holding onto anything stuff! Hikite is for holding, otherwise the guard should be up...
B.
Hmm But he was good/class though, I am trying to find as much as I can on him. Interesting that shotokan practioners were shooting in and using leg takedowns(apart from foot sweeps) in full contact competition(no gloves).
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/27/07 11:04 AM
He was good at what he did (not my sort of thing these days) but he was a miserable, grumpy old [censored] who shouted at everyone and expected old style extreme Japanese respect from Westerners. He got it from many who believed they were acting/training like samurais but I am English and it [censored] me off (like so many things!
)
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/27/07 01:39 PM
Quote:
He was good at what he did (not my sort of thing these days) but he was a miserable, grumpy old [censored] who shouted at everyone and expected old style extreme Japanese respect from Westerners. He got it from many who believed they were acting/training like samurais but I am English and it [censored] me off (like so many things! )
Hmmmm
Training to be a samurai might not be a bad thing, cheap weapons, cheap to feed etc because according to some statistics a large percentage of the population of some countries think that some of their military's high tech equipment is too expensive to risk in combat.
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/28/07 03:32 AM
Barad
Let me reiterate- I am not claiming any superiority. Let me defend my position. I do not do the J kata as they are of Tomari Te lineage and I do a predominantly Sui-Di Shorin style.
The points we're making concerned the use of practical stances and techs. If you want to know an Okinawan karate perspective, I was making the point that the posture shown was exaggerated and unfamiliar to me. I was trying to think of the closest posture to that I've seen in the Orthodox Shorin kata and I could only guess at what the bunkai for that version might be based on Shorin Ryu a progenitor style of your own.
As for Hohan Soken's Chinto, I will say that when one ages one adapts with the form. The jumping double- front kick may be omitted for obvious reasons as can the takedown on one knee, but the stances, timing and other waza remain intact.
The version of Chinto Soken taught his senior students and performed himself when he was younger is exactly like the version I and other Matsumura Shorin guys do and perpetuate.
That's the weakest instigatory ploy I've yet experienced on the web. Good try, but everyone knows how much I revere and pump up Soken O'Sensei and his karate.
So understand this, my karate is Soken's karate, and yes it involves more depth than most other styles.
If you use Shotokan kata for fighting only then you are kidding and cheating yourself. But hey that's all you've got, so run with it, Barad you tough guy you.
Good luck!
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/28/07 04:46 AM
Quote:
That's the weakest instigatory ploy I've yet experienced on the web. Good try, but everyone knows how much I revere and pump up Soken O'Sensei and his karate.
What was the weakest instigatory ploy? Showing Hohan Soken doing Chinto that was almost Identical to the Shotokan version for the sake of illustrating how little difference there was particularly with the (impossible to apply) manji uke movement and showing everybody a more "functional" version of the movement that they might better understand it?
Or was it something else?
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/28/07 04:57 AM
Quote:
Barad
Let me reiterate- I am not claiming any superiority....
...
...So understand this, my karate is Soken's karate, and yes it involves more depth than most other styles.
If you use Shotokan kata for fighting only then you are kidding and cheating yourself. But hey that's all you've got, so run with it, Barad you tough guy you.
Good luck!
Your slipping unsu, usually the self contradiction is a few posts apart 
.
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/28/07 07:50 AM
Keep it cool please guys, this is a good discussion please remember the rules of the site.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/28/07 09:38 AM
Hi Unsu,
Thanks for bringing a smile to my face-I have not been "tough" since I got locked up for GBH in 1987 and learnt the hard way what are the consequences of hurting people. I keep training for the eventuality that I find myself on the other side, which in a city like London is not impossible one of these days...
Either way, we seem to be going round in circles (and obviously I remain by and large unconvinced by your claims and comments) but I wish you well and enjoy your training.
B.
Posted by: Unsu
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/28/07 10:29 PM
Shonuff- I don't doubt that Shotokan's Gankaku has many things in common with the Shorin Chinto. A Javelina (Peccary) looks almost exactly like a pig but is really more closely related to an elephant.
When I say instigating I meant Barad was claiming that I said Soken's kata in that video was not right. It was perfect for him at his age. I just had to let him know that I never said that and that I thought it was weak of him to try and get others to believe that by typing pure balderdash. He was trying to get me and others worked up, but it just ain't gonna happen. Therefore I explained what I meant by my initial comments.
Barad- I am not trying to convince you. I'm giving you my take on it all.
I feel- and this is just my opinion- that if a Japanese Karate stylist wants to understand the lost intent of their kata all they have to do is train in a good Shorin or Okinawan Shito Ryu dojo. Even Funakoshi had to go back to the source and seek out Kenwa Mabuni Shinshi in order to better understand the karate he was slowly adapting to Japanese sensibilities. Kanazawa Sensei did it as have other high ranking Shotokan-ka. Do you think there might be a reason for that?
Good luck to you, bruh', and don't thump anybody. I don't doubt you can rumble a bit if you had too.
Now I'm gonna go do some kata for a long-life, qigong and sinew training. In a moderate manner of course
.
Peace...
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 03/31/07 12:34 PM
Just before I nip off to Oz, let me see if I understand the latest from the fantasy world of Unsu: Chinto and Gankaku are two apparently identical katas that were devised completely independently (your peccary and pig analogy etc) and any similarity is purely coincidental? You couldn't make it up! Unsu, you sound like you have been overtraining your sinews and your brain popped out. Can you muster anyone else who doesn't accept that they are the same kata performed with slightly different emphasis or minor variation?
Far more interesting for when I get back, why not give me your interpretation of a few of the movements in Chinto-say the opening movement, x block/jumping kick, foot/knee raise- and we can see if they are what I had in mind. Your turn from manji uke into kneeling juji uke as a turn and throw was one I already mentioned so not really adding anything but why not share your bunkai brilliance with us? Or are you just here to pimp everyone else's experience (to use your own charming expression)?
B.
Posted by: HaterHater
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 04/07/07 08:39 PM
Heya Shonuff,
Sorry to post and run on this...we had to let someone go at work so it's been extra busy there, a friend from out of town (out of country, actually) showed up unannounced...and then my birthday....made for a busy couple weeks. Anyway, here come some thoughts.
For the Hirokazu Kanazawa - Jitte: The slow raising/lowering palms at the beginning I'll wait to comment on.
1. Next comes a series of palm strikes. Common enough in many styles of kungfu. In my (relatively limited) experience, low palm strikes are found more in southern styles. However, they're usually performed with one hand guarding/taming the opponents arm while the other palm-strikes to the ribs. My girlfriend did such an excellent one of these on me when she was first training it that it took my breath away...literally.
2. Next comes the hands in the air part. No idea!
3. Next section I already commented on.
4. Starting at 1:04 comes the stance with the rear hand cirling up and the lead hand circling down (both slightly bent). Kinda looks like a hard-fisted version of Taijiquan's 'White Crane Spreads Wings'. If you were to sink further back in the stance and let the body turn a little it would be a hard-fisted version of a Southern Shaolin technique usually translated something like 'Dragon's Qi Crosses River'. Both of these are commonly used for numerous purposes. 'White Crane' (which is done from an empty leg stance aka cat stance) is usually used to open the opponents arms while kicking low. I don't think that matches the stance in Jitte well. 'Dragon's Qi' I like to use against certain grabs/qinna/grappling...while the rising hand twists to help release a grip, the other hand smashes down into the gripping arm. (Of course this only works in certain situations.) The last reasonable usage I can see right away is simply striking a straight-on front kick to the gut. If you watch closely on the turn you can see the body moves backward (or at least what will be back once the turn is completed). So if you're in what I believe you Karate guys call a front stance, when the kick comes in, shift back and strike the inside of the leg, which done right will hurt and possibly pivot them slightly....then drop that hammer you've got raised above your head!
5. Next is a series of rising blocks, which I just don't get. I'd love to hear your (or anyone else's) take on that, cause I've never understood all the Karate arms-over-head that I see. Some styles of kungfu do have rising blocks that look similar, but they're always done in a very particular way, and with a punch coming our from the other hand.
6. So, all that's left is the slow palms from the very beginning. Here's my theory. A lot of traditional kungfu sets (especially southern styles) have a little qigong at the beginning. If you watch Southern Shaolin, Hunggar, and even some some Choylaifut you'll see a series of slow movements, sometimes followed by a fast strike-and-yell. So, if this did come from Kungfu, and if you believe in that stuff, then this may have been the part where the practitioner pumped up their qi and channeled it to their palms. Hey, actually, that may explain why the series of palm strikes is done leaving he body wide open to attack....instead of fighting technique, it is to practice channeling qi into palm strikes.
So there you go. As promised, one kungfu practitioners limited perspective. I was hoping that after not looking at this thread for a few weeks, others would have joined in. Ah well. Hope it gives you some ideas anyway.
Later,
Hater (Josh)
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 04/09/07 06:31 PM
Hey Josh
Thanks for the insight. You give much food for thought. Sadly I've not had a whole lot of free time to devote to the research of this kata trio and as you can see this thread (and indeed the Forms forum) has died a death. I think we should try and convince more kungfu-ists to discuss things in here.
Jitte.
The palm strikes I feel are a means of showing/training 1. transmitting force over distance while maintaining balance, 2.stepping past an attack on the outside.
The hands-high movements are I feel to be used singly, primarily as basic forearm blocks/controls, back fist strikes, hammerfist and elbow strikes where leg techniques are used to bridge between the movements. Also the arms-high posture with the knee raises can be used as a basic trip action.
One of the key points of this kata is the use of the rear arm to pull in an attack and using the shift in the stance to generate power. The governing rules for use of the techniques are based entirely on the range that the opponent is at.
The upper blocks are generally applied as forearm smashes to the throat or jaw. It can also be applied as a parry (standing) then trapping action (driving forward with the block) that opens up the opponent for a strike.
obviously there's more to it, there's always more but I think that covers the key aspects of what I've deduced thus far.
Any thoughts on Jiin, I've still not had much time to look at that one?
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/01/07 03:41 AM
Quote:
Quote:
exactly. sometimes things really ARE what they seem.
Ed and Medulanet,
Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu, published 1925. Describiing Chinto Kata on Page 161, step 27 Gichin Funakoshi states "Simultaneously pull the right hand up from below and the left hand down... ...taking the posture shown in Fig. 201."
Fig 201 Shows Gichin Funakoshi standing in a crane stance assuming the same manji uke posture. The video of hohan Soken shows him performing the same move with a slight variation as is expected of a karateka with a different linneage.
The kata have not been changed. Take the blinckers off and stop trying to reduce this discussion to Shotokan bashing. You have wilfully ignored every explanation of this technique and reduced a debate over a group of kata to an incessant whine over one movement. Get over it and discuss the topic at hand.
The more I look at kata and the more I look for the techniques the more I see that particuler shotokan/shotokai/wado/shito styles were created for a mass training for the public and the techniques were disguised.Ok competiton had an effect but not to great an effect to take the technique away from their original purpose. A change of opinion
I think the manji uke posture meant something specific
to advanced practioners and not to be trusted to joe public.
Quote:
Any thoughts on Jiin, I've still not had much time to look at that one?
Is that for anybody to answer?
If it is plenty on jion
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hyxJlGyJcmA&mode=related&search=
Posted by: Barad
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/01/07 08:40 AM
Tanaka's performance of Jion is textbook but it still does not give any clue to application (unless I missed a bit)?
B.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/01/07 02:53 PM
Quote:
Tanaka's performance of Jion is textbook but it still does not give any clue to application (unless I missed a bit)?
B.
Hi Barad.
I dont think I did give any clues to the application.
Temple kata Chinese
Can you look in your messages? PM
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/01/07 10:05 PM
no such thing as hidden technique. there are only undiscovered ones.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 02:45 AM
Quote:
no such thing as hidden technique. there are only undiscovered ones.
At this moment in time I am tending to dis agree. I am learning there are both. Hidden and undiscovered.
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 08:05 AM
mabey some of you guy's can help me,but does'nt Ti chi ki, mean, showing what the hand is doing?
Now if that is the case,Does it reffer to a hidden technique/an undiscvered one?
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 09:14 AM
Ti chi ki, as it was explained to me is 'what the hand is doing'.
i understand that to be the actual main use of any movement, of course movements have many uses but for me it is the main intent of learning a technique in the learning process.
ie a punch really is sometimes just a punch, a block really is sometimes just a block.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 01:38 PM
Quote:
Ti chi ki, as it was explained to me is 'what the hand is doing'.
i understand that to be the actual main use of any movement, of cours emovements hav emany uses but for me it is the main intent of learning a technique in the learning process.
ie a punch really is sometimes just a punch, a block really is sometimes just a block.
Perhaps but this is where I get very very confused.It would seem that some American service men being taught on okinawa years ago didnt know the meaning of the techniques in kata because they didint ask and their term on okinawa was 18 months so the teachers on okinawa sold them what they thought they wanted. To the ones who did ask the answer might have been Ti chi ki' = what the hand is doing'.
A sort of we aint telling you figure it out yourself!
So if it looks like a palm heel block in the kata it can also be a strike and where and how would you use it? etc etc
But on this one I am just speculating. So dont hold me to it
Hi Jim
Jim.
I realy, realy, realy hate figuring things out for myself. It gives me well !
a sort of head ache. I would rather just train. Sweat doesnt give me a head ache. I think if I was a service man on okinawa and they were skint I would have offered them more money to tell/show me the hidden/ not discovered yet secrets. Then they would be mine. All mine.
Right then. Back to life. Back to reality.etc etc
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 04:03 PM
a good starting point giving structure in unloking kata movement is to find a obvious block (or defensive manouver), a strike and grapple application for each movement.
ie ones that really work against a common method of assault, I can't think anyone would need more in a life time, if one is training for self defense. It will be obvious not all karate techniques have the big three applications.
I really like to keep things simple these days and functional, for me that is the true message of Okinawan Karate, some 'secrets' do reveal themselves with correct, prolonged training under a good Sensei. a always remember some secrets are very simple...........
Do I think Okinawan karate is the ultimate martial art, not really but I have a passion for the Ryukyu kingdom and the training suits all my needs.
my apologies I seem to have gone a little of thread.....
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 06:33 PM
If techniques are hidden in the kata, and the person who 'disguised' them is gone without disclosing them...then the techniques are no longer hidden. They wait to be rediscovered.
but there are alot of caveats. If you look at kata and expect there are hidden technique, first, how can you be sure you are analysing the 'hidden' version and not just a corrupted version from previous misinterpretation?
however, even if you have a corrupted version, and have the view of discovery...then nothing is hidden.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 08:24 PM
Quote:
If techniques are hidden in the kata, and the person who 'disguised' them is gone without disclosing them...then the techniques are no longer hidden. They wait to be rediscovered.
but there are alot of caveats. If you look at kata and expect there are hidden technique, first, how can you be sure you are analysing the 'hidden' version and not just a corrupted version from previous misinterpretation?
however, even if you have a corrupted version, and have the view of discovery...then nothing is hidden.
.
If (This is just an example) one of the kata(temple kata) is said by some one to seem corrupt it would seem(at this moment in time) that the corruption isnt bad enough that the uncanny resembelance to some workable chinese rooted techniques/applications is to be seen.
I think the techiques were initialy hidden by the Japanese at that time.
Hidden because the self defence/fighting techniques werent realy karate-do orientated and of no use to the marketing strategy the Japanese had in mind. Or perhaps they didint know them so they changed the techniques for Aesthetic/ competiton purposes. I think later high ranking Japanese studied the chinese roots so they may have re discovered the original techniques.
Perhaps at this stage undiscovered should have meant re discovered. Undiscoverd may or may not come later.
Either way I like the progress. Slow, but getting there.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/02/07 11:14 PM
respectfully, I disagree. during the 20th century, I believe only a translated image of Okinawan Karate ever propegated to Japan. Motivations to make something look 'more Japanese' is not a reason of function but of perception. Things were lost in that translation.
The movements you see in 'standard' Shotokan kata are corruptions. I suppose that is style-bashing in a way, but thats what one person sees. others have different opinions. one opinion isn't meant to carry anything more than one opinion, so I hope nobody reads it as such.
The main aspect that has changed in kata movement is the interpretation of which range kata principles show. During the 40's thru 60's, Karate made an atempt to transition to a sport-based Art. many kata and curriculum were 'standardized' during this time. One of the ways it standardized is in the interpretaion of what the Art was changing towards: long-distance sport point fighting. and the kata changed accordingly to match that change in intent.
many kata we see today in commercial dojo reflect that standardized kata...then during the 90's or so, it once again became important to utilize kata as a tool for functional non-sport application. well, that poses a bit of a problem if your starting point is with kata that was modified for different reasons. see? not 'hidden', just undiscovered.
my suggestion is to put the kata aside and just do 2-person drills with increasing level of resistance....and then just find what you find. Do that for 5-10 years or so, then revisit the kata and you'll see it differently. you also won't be afraid to change it to match what you now know to be better utility.
At that point kata becomes a useful tool. it's about discovery. not unlocking hidden secrets or pursuing those claiming to have the 'key'.
someone did an interesting book/study: '5 years, one kata' ...I've thought an interesting counter-perspective would be '5 years, NO kata'.
If a traditional kata-centric Karateka stepped away from kata for 5 years and studied a non-kata related Art, would they later go back? If they did, their kata would possibly have alot more meaning.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/03/07 08:47 AM
Quote:
respectfully, I disagree. during the 20th century, I believe only a translated image of Okinawan Karate ever propegated to Japan. Motivations to make something look 'more Japanese' is not a reason of function but of perception. Things were lost in that translation.
The movements you see in 'standard' Shotokan kata are corruptions. I suppose that is style-bashing in a way, but thats what one person sees. others have different opinions. one opinion isn't meant to carry anything more than one opinion, so I hope nobody reads it as such.
I dont think that is style bashing more than likely the truth. Corruption and poss hidden and not just in Shotokan. I am slowly finding out that other mass marketed styles seem to have the same problem with kata. I am speaking from only kata I have knowledge of and not the complete style because I seem to find that each style I look at (particulerly from the top ranks) has something good in it.
But.
One of the kata's I am looking at at the moment is shotokan's version of jion.
I think I see some of the corrupt/hidden part's and I think I see what I think is possable the true intention. Dont get me wrong. I would never claim to be an expert and in some cases I might be wrong. I think you might call it a hunch. I would have to be able to prove my findings should it ever get that far.
Quote:
The main aspect that has changed in kata movement is the interpretation of which range kata principles show. During the 40's thru 60's, Karate made an atempt to transition to a sport-based Art. many kata and curriculum were 'standardized' during this time. One of the ways it standardized is in the interpretaion of what the Art was changing towards: long-distance sport point fighting. and the kata changed accordingly to match that change in intent.
I can see that point but surely that would only apply to none traditional karate? Not certain direct lineage of Okinawan goju?
Quote:
many kata we see today in commercial dojo reflect that standardized kata...then during the 90's or so, it once again became important to utilize kata as a tool for functional non-sport application. well, that poses a bit of a problem if your starting point is with kata that was modified for different reasons. see? not 'hidden', just undiscovered.
and that one except on a kata such as sepia there were intended hidden techniques.
“Sepai translates as "18 hands", and is of Chinese origin. It contains many hidden techniques designed to confuse the opponent in combat. It is said to be impossible to understand the true meaning of the techniques by simply watching them performed. It is considered a tiger kata and is a continuation of Seisan.”
I agree totally with that statement.
Quote:
my suggestion is to put the kata aside and just do 2-person drills with increasing level of resistance....and then just find what you find. Do that for 5-10 years or so, then revisit the kata and you'll see it differently. you also won't be afraid to change it to match what you now know to be better utility.
At that point kata becomes a useful tool. it's about discovery. not unlocking hidden secrets or pursuing those claiming to have the 'key'.
I think my goal at this moment with Jion is to find a practical use for it as regards the techniques that could be used as a 2 man drill. If all this works or not who knows.
Its early days. I think I have worked out some use full techniques but I suppose time will tell.
Quote:
someone did an interesting book/study: '5 years, one kata' ...I've thought an interesting counter-perspective would be '5 years, NO kata'.
If a traditional kata-centric Karateka stepped away from kata for 5 years and studied a non-kata related Art, would they later go back? If they did, their kata would possibly have alot more meaning.
Possable but I dont think there is much point in training just kata. But I enjoy the research on kata.
There is one thing that keeps re-occuring. From the kata sepia. Sometimes I see stand alone techniques being drilled in fairly modern kata less kempo style. The exact thing's exist in the original Okinawa sepia kata and the associated two man drills. I posted it some where to stormdragen.
So it would seem at some time fairly recently someone extracted techniques from the original katas albeit it that some one initialy created the kata from such techniques years ago as a form of living dictionary of techniques . A bit like the chicken and the egg thing .
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/03/07 04:38 PM
Ed,
I think your view is essentially correct but the details we differ over are quite important.
Firstly when discussing the changes in Shotokan kata one must be aware that the changes made in a club or an association are not necessarily changes to the style its self. What I practice is not JKA Shotokan, what I practice has changed over the years based on the writings of Nakayama, Funakoshi (Gichin and Kenneth) and on the study I have undertaken on my own. What I do is still Shotokan. There is a wide range of variation in technique which comes under this banner.
I think one thing that the mma/grappling/"real self defence" trend has pushed into popular consciousness is the idea that unless you are fighting close quarters you are fighting incorrectly. Real fights occur in every range from ground grappling to weapons range and a martial artist should have the means to defend themselves in any of those, however that does not make specialising in one range (such as ground work or long range striking) a flaw.
The Kata Funakoshi learned from Itosu and brought to Japan were altered from older versions. There is no explanation behind why these changes were made all is speculation. Those who think Shotokan is useless Japanese gymnastics say it was to protect school children.
Personally I think it was to systemise a large number of kata into a training regime that repeated its self as little as possible to provide a graduated teaching syllabus that passes on the bulk of Karate strategy and technique, where the older forms of the kata were meant as almost complete systems in their own right and were hence studied in groups of between 3 and 5 by masters past.
Gigo Funakoshi may have made changes based on aesthetics. He may have made changes based on sport (although I can't quite see how altering movements in kata make competetion easier/better etc). We do not know why the changes were made and as with Itosu's changes the opinions one has of Shotokan as an art will shape whatever bias one holds. The one thing that is known is that Yoshitaka Funakoshi was the son of a man who had spent nearly his whole life learning Karate from some of the biggest names in the history of the art. We also know that he was entrusted with learning and then "Shotokanising" new kata. Again it is just opinion, but I feel that it is likely that someone who devoted his life to karate and disaproved of sport and who advocated understanding through study of kata and hard training (I mean Funakoshi Gichin) would see to it that his son did not remove anything of value.
Perhaps this approval of the modernising and Japanising of Karate is where the statement about long stances being for begginers came from; a note to understanding some of the changes.
The changes Nakayama made were to make Karate were to systemise and make the movements more scientific, not to make sport easier (he does state in Dynamic Karate that sport alone will cause karate to deteriorate). This was based on an understanding of the surface movements only, i.e. block punch and kick. It was all he had been taught and from old footage I have seen, it is possible that many of the kata Funakoshi brought over were even emptier of movements than the Nakayama incarnations. As I understand it Nakayama researched his technique with his contemporaries in Karate and he began training in the days before heavily rule bound competition when sparring matches meant leaving teeth on the floor.
I know of no major changes to Shotokan technique after Nakayama's, making any following variations school specific.
When I discuss kata, my main references are Karate Jutsu, Karatedo Kyohan and any JKA reference I have handy (as the JKA follow on from Nakayama), the technique and movements found in these three sources are what I consider as Shotokan from a technical point of view and even though there is variation between them, I can see and understand how they are ultimately the same as the essence has not changed.
I feel that the applications are still inherent in the Shotokan kata sequences, whether this means they are hidden or undiscovered I do not know.
Your suggestion of putting aside kata in favour of partner drills is pretty much what karate has been for the pre-bunkai centric generation. Practice solo kata, solo kihon (broken down solo kata) and drills. A few less solo exercises and a few more partner drils won't make a huge difference especially if you have nothing on which to base your drills. The new wave should be doing more drills but based on kata applications. A basis for partner work is in my view the biggest point of kata.
Assuming one does not understand the kata at all what then does one drill? As you stated it would require moving off into another art. But what you learn as utility from that art may have nothing to do with utility in Karate. How does kata become useful after you practice something different?
What then is the value of Karate, why practice it at all if it needs us to dedicate 5-10 years in another art to make use of it?
Just out of curiosity Ed, is this what your own training is based around, or was this suggestion aimed at those who train shotokan and similarly altered Karate styles?
If one has no clue of useful applications to their kata then I agree, abandoning one's art after taking their sparring technique to it's limit is probably the best option for continued development.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/03/07 06:11 PM
no, not only Shotokan kata. just giving some ideas in general while using Shotokan as an example.
I guess my point was sometimes cross-training gives other perspectives that we wouldn't otherwise see or be exposed to.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/10/07 02:58 AM
Quote:
Ed,
similarly altered Karate styles?
If one has no clue of useful applications to their kata then I agree, abandoning one's art after taking their sparring technique to it's limit is probably the best option for continued development.
Hi
Update
I dont think the katas shotokan /wado /shito etc are to much altered that practical and good techniques can still be gained from them. Regards hidden techniques. I think from my kata studies that other styles are just as equal in disguising/hiding techniques in kata.
Shotokan is known for its linear movements?
well the kata techniques I have found seems to show the other side. Early days still
Niju Hachi Ho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRRYDRSItk&mode=related&search=
Sensie Kanazawa doing Niju Hachi Ho. It has been said that he learned it from an older master in Okinawa years ago.
I think the top dan karate-ka know all about their kata and application.
Jude
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/10/07 03:43 PM
Looks good to me, I wish the shotokan I have been exposed to was more like this vid. And for all the shotokan guys who will say that they don't know what I am talking about because their shotokan is and always was performed in this manner I have never persoanlly seen a shotokan kata with such moderate stances and a feel similar to shorin ryu before.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/10/07 06:13 PM
Quote:
Looks good to me, I wish the shotokan I have been exposed to was more like this vid. And for all the shotokan guys who will say that they don't know what I am talking about because their shotokan is and always was performed in this manner I have never persoanlly seen a shotokan kata with such moderate stances and a feel similar to shorin ryu before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTpUpbuwikc ?
The other side to how people see shotokan perhaps?
Seienchin and sepia both
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si0MwppdegE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyPMBPF4bqo
In a shotokan syllabus.
That means in effect with the bunkia from all katas how will the karate ka look?
Times are changing. I think the higher the grade the less style orientated.
Mas Oyama studied both shotokan and goju or perhaps he just studied karate. Either way there it is.
Jude
Posted by: CVV
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/12/07 04:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Ed,
similarly altered Karate styles?
If one has no clue of useful applications to their kata then I agree, abandoning one's art after taking their sparring technique to it's limit is probably the best option for continued development.
Hi
Update
I dont think the katas shotokan /wado /shito etc are to much altered that practical and good techniques can still be gained from them. Regards hidden techniques. I think from my kata studies that other styles are just as equal in disguising/hiding techniques in kata.
Shotokan is known for its linear movements?
well the kata techniques I have found seems to show the other side. Early days still
Niju Hachi Ho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRRYDRSItk&mode=related&search=
Sensie Kanazawa doing Niju Hachi Ho. It has been said that he learned it from an older master in Okinawa years ago.
I think the top dan karate-ka know all about their kata and application.
Jude
Nijuhachi / Nepai / Nipaipo / 28 hands.
Gokenki thaught it in the first half of the 20th century. A version described in the Bubishi. It is a hakutsuru kata (white crane). Toon-ryu and Shito-ryu have a version.
Regarding hidden techniques. In the JKF Goju-Kai manual regarding Sepai (2th edition) it is explained that Chinese masters would intentionally create difficult kata (meaning with hidden techniques) so that technique thieves, wandering from dojo to dojo, would not be able to understand the techniques just by viewing the performance of the kata.
Posted by: CVV
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/12/07 05:09 PM
Quote:
Mas Oyama studied both shotokan and goju or perhaps he just studied karate. Either way there it is.
Jude
Mas Oyama studied Goju-ryu with Cho Nei Cho.
Cho Nei Cho was one of the founding members of the Ritsumeikan University karate club with Gogen Yamaguchi and Jitsuei Yogi (around 1935). They studied with Miyagi Chojun for a while but learned most from Jitsuei Yogi. Jitsuei Yogi was a senior student of Chojun Miyagi (he was Okinawan). Cho Nei Cho was Korean like Mas Oyama. All of them were very important in the establishment of the JKF Goju-Kai.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/14/07 08:40 AM
Thanks CVV
Thanks for your input.
It gives more names to research.
Did you ever come across the fact there might be a difference between -te(ti) and kara-te(ti)? and its been said that some modern karate styles contains no -te(ti)?
With sepia and hidden techniques. I agree. I get headaches all the time. If you have any thoughts on the kata then you could always PM me.
Jude
Posted by: CVV
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/15/07 07:03 AM
Quote:
Did you ever come across the fact there might be a difference between -te(ti) and kara-te(ti)? and its been said that some modern karate styles contains no -te(ti)?
Some say that toudi refers to teachings imported from China and ti refers to native Okinawan MA.
Miyagi refers in the meeting of the masters in 1936 towards the name of the fighting art he teaches as ti or te and explains that an art is named differently in different periods, even in China.
I once heared a Shorin-ryu master explain that real ti starts where kata ends. He meant that the movements/techniques in the kata are not definite form in combat. As such additional knowledge derived from older 'ti', wich was practised with far more emphasis towards self defense, will give more possibilities in combat.
Look at the 48 drawings for self-defense in the Bubishi. Most styles will find these principles back in their kata curriculum. In older days there were no styles. So maybe the principles of fighting is referred to as ti. Some say that ti postures can be found back in Ryukyu traditional dances.
I believe that ti refers to a practical knowledge of fighting that can help you analyse kata. The knowledge of ti is build gradually as you research yourselve and learn from others. This puts us again in the chicken/egg dilemma. What was first kata or ti ?
The question is not does modern karate contain ti ? But do you search for answers when practicing kata so that the kata will become part of you. If your training only evolves around a good performance of the kata with correct speed and balance, good stance and correct execution of technique in coordination with breathing and movement, but at least in regard towards practical use in mind, i think your ti is weak.
But from the performance of the kata, it is not possible to see that. This brings us back to the hidden techniques in kata.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Temple Boxing - A study of a system - 05/19/07 07:53 AM
Quote:
no, not only Shotokan kata. just giving some ideas in general while using Shotokan as an example.
I guess my point was sometimes cross-training gives other perspectives that we wouldn't otherwise see or be exposed to.
Yes I can see that valid point.
Did you some where one the forum discuss finding wood the size equvelent of a human bone with the intent of trying to break it?
I am asking because I can only train palm heel strikes to the elbow (under pressure) by using them as a arm bar.
Just a thought.
jude