Kata - Bunkai/Oyo

Posted by: shoshinkan

Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/15/06 07:11 AM

I wanted to start a converstaion on the subject of 'using' kata, particulary for practical application in self-defense.

First off how much 'fixed' applications are taught in your dojo, how is this done? What kind of assaults ae used in your partner work? What intensity?

Secondly, re-engineering of application is widespread in Karate practise, why is this? Why didn't/don't many Sensei pass on/know the origional applications from history? Is this a bad thing, or is this how it is meant to be?

Should kata have fixed applications, or are they a simple learning tool (my belief) to illistrate the principles of movement/reaction of the human form, in combat?

Look forward to your thoughts on this important subject, for me kata and what we do with them is 'karate' - withoubt it we are doing something else.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/15/06 11:45 PM

Interesting questions, I'll only answer a few. What assaults are practiced? As many as your partner can imagine. But there really aren't that many. A person sticks something out. You avoid it, control it, and put'em down for the count. I can't say for all styles, but many applications were passed on, we just didn't listen. An okinwan may have said this is how it is done, and then once in 3 years said, or you can do this and show application. Many didn't listen or didn't understand what they meant or that they were showing the "code" of kata and how to crack it. I heard someone somewhere say kata is like a Swiss Army Knife. Kata does show principles of movement and concepts, but it does show fighting technique that if applied in the correct manner from the correct angle can be used very effectively without alteration. That is if you are studying kata the way it is supposed to be. In addition to this there are small adjustments which must be made in other instances to adapt principles and techniques contained in the kata to real life attacks.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/16/06 02:45 AM

Hello Shoshinkan:

Like Medulant, I contend/accept that the ~translation~ from teacher to student perhaps was poor? Possibly within our lifetime that became a literal factor, ie "we" did not speak their language at all sufficently/at-all in order to get that level of understanding possibly?

Physically I can practice and eventually uncover whispers, things hidden completely in plain sight. Yet a few well choosen and specific words might open new perceptions, an awareness which once opened could produce such epiphanies <sp.?> far sooner!?

<<how much 'fixed' applications are taught in your dojo

There are certain structural mechanics which cannot be ignored, within all small movement patterns of a kata. If my arms are medium/high it is extremely unlikely (merely for a random example) that I am a-typically coping with your legs kicking my head....

Unless my body is structurally positioned to withstand that weight, which is why very specific stances and not others are utilized. If my arms and legs adhear to the correct starting and ending positions (ie without alteration) within a sequence of movements, therefore are identical to the empty handed form... anything theoretically would be potentially fair game.

Hense the "WHY" it is a lifetime study...

As for intensity, you need to start slowly, very slowly so that the mechanics can be studied. If I go maximum intensity from the very first moment I enter a class ever, the issue becomes simple instinctual survival NOT technical improvement and exploration, honing....

Intensity is fine, provided both/all partners verbally express that wish AND, and know each other well enough so that even "hard" nobody goes primal ~red zone~ and looses their control. This is called practice for a reason.

<<Secondly, re-engineering of application is widespread in Karate practise, why is this?

Incorrect perception by teacher or student would be one of my more favorite hypothesis. Incorrect transfer for any number of reasons. Shallow comprehension. Any of these or a thousand others might explain the ~negative side~ of the proverbial equasion? On the positive, there are so many fascinating potential and completely viable possibilities for tiny movements that require temporary shelving at some point to eventually re-explore. Otherwise literal insanity sets in...

Knowing the "original", frankly I do not know is necessary. It would mean, in some ways that having only "one" answer would become in some respects possibly a dead thing; kept from the past without understanding any manner of WHY concerning those movement patterns? Merely cookie cutter copying... from one ~generation~ to the next

Consider, I create and invent something, tell you and DEMAND you never, ever alter, change any facet of it ever. Simply do it, over and over, and over. All fine and good, but what happens when I am a different sex, very different mass, radically different age, anthetically different temperment, etc., etc. If, I am restricted to merely copy the movements of someone who was thirty years younger, an angry person, obscenely powerful and I am none of those things.... ONLY maintaining their practice would mean I am copying it, not understanding what they were telling us

In this regard reverse engineering is obscenely correct & dare I say required/mandatory.

<<Why didn't/don't many Sensei pass on/know the origional applications from history?

Well human lifespan comes to mind... if I were a able to be say 150 years old, or 200, I am sure my art and the practices I explore might look radically different in some respects. If I could be, several hundreds of years old... I am confidant I would still have dozens of nuances and subtleties for every single movement.... I would have had lots of people to practice with/upon!!!!

This how it is meant to be...

<<In combat...

Now, I accept our practices fundamentally are about maintaining our personal boundries against someone(s) who cannot/will not be convinced otherwise. Now having said that, I am not fundamentally compelled that they were supposed to be USED. Learn, understand how to produce the maximal power we are capable and learn how to not get drawn into others stupidity to me sounds like ancient core wisdom!!!

Merely my perspective, hopefully coherent... I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/16/06 06:04 AM

Nice responses people, I shall digest and post again some more thoughts, be interesting to see where others are at on this subject.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/16/06 08:43 AM

The potential to utilize kata technique really is limitless.

I ran across this video, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3308028374750317361&q=tai+chi the first 3 1/2 minutes are really more principles of chinese wrestling than just tai chi, but as they looked interesting I started working them with the guy's last weekend and last night.

The scary thing is those same techniques are all present in the Isshinryu Chinto kata, pieces of which I've used similar ways, but just not as a unified whole as shown.

Outside of my maintining Chinto is the most Chinese of all Okinawan kata, and I can find aikido, bagua and more in it, what's the answer.

Chinto is more thought of from it's percussive potential, or projection potential, but for quick wrestling style takedowns? There are some differences, but they are relatively minor.

All movement is just potential, and if you can make it work, its no longer potential but you're reality.
Posted by: Just1Mike

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/17/06 11:21 AM

Quote:

The potential to utilize kata technique really is limitless.



Victor, I agree whole heartedly (sp?).

I feel that kata training is like finding yourself being chased home by an attacker. You make it to your door to find that you don't have your keys. At your feet is a decorative rock. Do you use it to break a window or glass to get inside safely? Do you throw it or tell yourself that it's just a decoration and nothing else? It seems that the only limits we have as far as useful kata are the ones we place on it ourselves. What's in YOUR Kata?


Good Luck!
Mike.
Posted by: CVV

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/18/06 06:00 PM

Quote:


First off how much 'fixed' applications are taught in your dojo, how is this done? What kind of assaults ae used in your partner work? What intensity?



We show general applications but they are not always fixed.
It's just to show the movement of the kata in an application. We refer to it as bunkai. There is not much variance in attack (usually straight forward zuki), but sometimes also specific like a grab from behind etc.. .
As to partner work, there is the general bunkai, for some kata, kata with partner in one line. Yakusoku kumite, where principles from kata and/or fighting experiences are drilled with partner. Kakie (sort of push hands) restrained to kata movements. Randori and jyu kumite.
Intensity can go from play to full force but always controlled. Seniors will almost never wear protection. (only used in sport fighting).

Quote:


Secondly, re-engineering of application is widespread in Karate practise, why is this? Why didn't/don't many Sensei pass on/know the origional applications from history? Is this a bad thing, or is this how it is meant to be?



From all sources that I know, Miyagi sensei (founder goju ryu) referred about bunkai with: 'think, you will figure it out yourselve'. You must learn by instruction and experience. Just drilling it is a good tool in the beginning but when you transcendent into understanding the underlying principle, you get a different level of experiencing karate. Here is where the fun begins and you test, experience, build your own fighting knowledge based on the set of kata and fighting experiences you have gathered. You can share them with people more or less on the same level but you can not immediatly transfer this to a beginning or medium level student.
The focus nowadays is no longer on pure self-defense (at least not in most of the schools I know). It's more about feeling good about yourselve, be confident in what you do and learn some basic self-defense if needed. But normally there is no need to be ready to fight daily.
In that regard, the knowledge regarding dirty tricks or real fighting knowledge to maim or kill, is no longer needed. So it is not emphesized nowadays and a lot has been forgotten. Also, the timeframe should be considered (e.g; sand throwing while kicking is nearly impossible nowadays on concrete raods, however 100 years ago there were only dirt roads).
Through research what is offered, from more than one view/style/fighting art/phylosophy/... you can build up your own knowledge and lear to apply it. When you can refer this knowledge back to a certain kata movement, this klnowledge is encoded. This can also be worked out from kata movement itself, by drilling it from different perpectives, e.g. in kakie while pushing or while pulling, a movement will have different emphasis. Or by changing the en,busen, stepping back iso forward or sideways iso straight.

Quote:


Should kata have fixed applications, or are they a simple learning tool (my belief) to illistrate the principles of movement/reaction of the human form, in combat?



Kata should at least have purpose.
We practice a kata that only has stances. It's for beginners to practice the most common stances and know their name. But overall when fighting application is involved, it's nice to show what it's all about. As long as it has 'real' potential.

Quote:


Look forward to your thoughts on this important subject, for me kata and what we do with them is 'karate' - withoubt it we are doing something else.


When kata are no longer the roots of your training, it's no longer karate imo.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/18/06 07:19 PM

Nice post CVV, enjoyed reading your thoughts, very similair to my own.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/21/06 05:03 PM

Hi Jim,
first - I don't think kata defines what an Art is or isn't. Indigineous Okinawan Te probably didn't have kata. Where are the Japanese Samurai and European knight kata?

I'm guessing kata practice didn't begin on okinawa till around the turn of the 19th century...so what was everyone using as a training method till then?

I know you weren't asking for history theories, but I'm getting to your question... Even in China, kata practice doesn't come into play till after mechanized warfare. why? maybe as technology places more and more space between the opponents, close quarter combat runs the risk of being lost?

people writing about martial history love to use the 'too secret' when there is missing peices in history. it's not documented so therefore it must have been a secret. flawed conclusion jumping. maybe it really was secret and as well protected as recipies for gunpowder...or maybe more likely that kata just wasn't important and for demonstration purposes.

Maybe importance of kata is moreso today than it ever has been. I have the feeling emphasis on kata wasn't a big deal until the perception of regaining something lost preserved within it, took hold.

ironically, in trying to figure out how the kata is applied and trying different things, it leads the student to discover what doesn't work. or a shorter path is by having someone show it.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/22/06 05:08 AM

Interesting post Ed,

I see your historical reasoning, and I tend to agree that the Okinawan 'kata' seem to have been formed around the turn of the 19th century. Proberly based on the older Chinese practise of doing so.

A difficult area of research at best.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/22/06 09:19 AM

my post was fragmented guessing....let me try again: "I don't know"
Posted by: Joss

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/24/06 09:48 AM

In our dojo (very small now: two guys and an out of state sensei), kata are used mostly as index cards to prompt out useful techniques. The techniques are the "goal", the kata are the "means". Yet, while we practice the techniques "often", it is without the repetitive intensity practiced on the kata themselves. This is the source of a paradox about kata that I have yet to resolve.

We have no "fixed applications". Some techniques are more obvious. These might be the standard block counter techniques line drills are made of. We tend to spend little time on them, opting to dig into the more obscure moves and see what comes out.

Might be different stuff on different nights. With just two guys this is easy. Don't know how you manage it with a larger group of mixed skill levels.

The assaults (like the techniques) are reverse engineered based on how we perceive the kata movement. We don't take much for granted and are quite willing to move the assualt from one angle of attack to another to find a sweet spot if there is one.

Intensity is generally pretty low but ramps up to maybe moderate once we are comfortable with the techniques and get "in the zone". Still, most of our techniques are deliberately targeted toward damage; joint dislocations, strikes to the groin, eyes, throat, carotids, kidneys, foot stomps, head twists, etc. Neither of us pushes much intent with these.

I can't argue with Ed about his theory on kata and lack of "passed on fixed applications". It is certainly a good question.

The paradox, I mentioned in the beginning, is that the intensive, perfectionist embusen training of kata has been shown in our dojo to actually INHIBIT taisabaki and mai. Yet we see taisabaki and mai as totally critical to good application. As an example: we practice the Nahanchi series, as I'm sure everyone else does, with rigid adherance to the line of movement left and right. We've done it over and over till we can see it in our sleep. One of the downside results, however, is that when "performing" the bunkai for these kata - it is now unnatural to move off line or away from or into the attacker (taisabaki and mai). To me, this is a case where a Ryu makes kata an "academic" requirement, rather using it as a martial arts tool.

I am curious as to whether we (collectively) spend WAY too much time chasing nit picky kata precision, and way too little absorbing the techniques they can reveal.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/24/06 10:39 AM

Joss,

superb post and we think alike for sure.

Just to awnser your question, I give a simple functional application to a student when they learn the kata, thats pracised and retained as they wish really - I liken it to a key, to open the door and explore.......

Very little 'formality' in my dojo these days, just serious training and some fun! I find formality in pairs techniques to be problematic.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/24/06 12:52 PM

Quote:

The paradox, I mentioned in the beginning, is that the intensive, perfectionist embusen training of kata has been shown in our dojo to actually INHIBIT taisabaki and mai. Yet we see taisabaki and mai as totally critical to good application. As an example: we practice the Nahanchi series, as I'm sure everyone else does, with rigid adherance to the line of movement left and right. We've done it over and over till we can see it in our sleep. One of the downside results, however, is that when "performing" the bunkai for these kata - it is now unnatural to move off line or away from or into the attacker (taisabaki and mai). To me, this is a case where a Ryu makes kata an "academic" requirement, rather using it as a martial arts tool.



Naihanchi inhibits tai sabaki, are you serious? What style do you practice? Imagine your opponent at a 45 degree angle and not directly in front or to the side. The crossing steps change the angle and provide good body shifting or side stepping to get to the side and IN on your opponent. Control the the head and strike to the head and body while moving, switching grips such as underhooks, head in arm, etc. Stepping on your opponent's feet, knee strikes to the thigh, kicks to the outside and inside of the leg. Once you distract, close the distance, and strike to damage you put them down on the ground and finish him there if you haven't by dropping him on his head on the concrete. This stuff is actually not rocket science. If your naihanchi inhibits tai sabaki, get a new one. You need knowledge of real fighting, grappling, and real striking defense, no pitty pat here. The mai is in close, real close. Slap an incoming technique to the side, cover up, step at a 45 degree angle and dive in. Then tear 'em up.
Posted by: Joss

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/24/06 02:49 PM

"Naihanchi inhibits tai sabaki, are you serious? What style do you practice? Imagine your opponent at a 45 degree angle and not directly in front or to the side."

Permit me to answer in the tone you seem to prefer:

No... you imagine your opponent attacking from directly at your side.... or is that not permitted in your style? Do you only practice bunkai perfectly suited to the kata?

If the attack comes from the side, you have to move off line to make your Naihanchi technique work. Now, however, Nahanchi's strict adhearance to only left/right movement, and the tedious 1,000 repetitions you have put into it can be your enemy - not your friend.

Try to let it sink in that point is simply one of how training functions - not a criticism of a particular kata. I believe we fight as we train, pure and simple. If your training is mostly Okinawan/Japanese style kata, with all their movements that "represent" techniques rather than "being" the techniques, what you will have ingrained is the representation - not the technique.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/24/06 03:35 PM

You're right, my tone is rough, violent, and aggressive just like my fighting style. Kata practice is about perfecting technique at the beginning. It develops balance, footwork, speed, and foundation. Multiple solo kata reps is not about learning to fight. Two man drills are for this. If you practice your kata with the right mind set it will not mess up your fighting. It will create good instinctive reflexes based on the flinch reflex. If someone attacks me from the side I will turn my body and cover. The first step over is to develop this skill. It is tai sabaki. Then once you get in you break your opponent's balance with the kick and destract them so you can hit'em, hurt'em, put'em down, and finish'em. I don't know about your style, but my style is very specific about strategies and its purpose. There isn't much of what I would call guess work. However, you need to train in Matsubayashi's skills to see what works for you and how you can best apply them. But as far as the kata, they work, and they are for taking your opponent out in very painful ways. Again what you describe as left right is probably because you are looking at the end result of the technique. I look at everything in between. The very end of the technique is my preperation for the next one. Your left right is my in at a 45 degree angle. That is how I train it and I can make it work. And yes there are technique representations in kata such as walking steps are knee strikes to legs, kosa dachi are knee strikes or kicks or leg traps. However, there are techniques used directly from the kata that work very well in fact.
Posted by: kakushiite

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/25/06 01:21 PM

Shoshinkan,

My answers follow:
________
First off how much 'fixed' applications are taught in your dojo, how is this done? What kind of assaults ae used in your partner work? What intensity?

For each movement in kata, we practice a variety of applications. For each sequence of movements, we try to emphasize “realistic” attacks. Where possible, this would be primarily the combination of a left jab, right hook/cross, to the head. From there, where possible, we practice combinations against other strikes, kicks, and grab or grab/strikes. From there, where possible, we practice empty hand against bo, and bo against bo combinations. Occasionally we practice other weapon against weapon applications.

Where possible, we look at each sequence of movements as a turnkey set of fighting movements that can provide effective defenses against all sorts of different kinds of attacks.
________
Secondly, re-engineering of application is widespread in Karate practise, why is this? Why didn't/don't many Sensei pass on/know the origional applications from history? Is this a bad thing, or is this how it is meant to be?

I think there is widespread agreement that much of the good application was not passed down from the Okinawans to the Japanese, from the Okinawans to the Americans, and certainly not from the Japanese to the Americans. I do not mean to single out Shotokan. since this is but one system where there was little transmittal of effective bunkai. However, if one looks at the several sets of texts authorized by the JKA, there are whole series of applications that are, IMHO, unrealistic. They typically begin with a single attack to the solar plexus (a highly unlikely attack) and they end with a single counterstrike to the solar plexus (which is not, by and large, the most effective self-defense strategy against a larger attacker). With so little passed down, we are left to ourselves to develop our own.

I don’t view this as a problem. Itosu, in his 6th lesson, urges us to “independently explore the context of the technique based on torite (theory of usage) and the practical applications will be more easily understood.” (Translation by McCarthy).
_______
Should kata have fixed applications, or are they a simple learning tool (my belief) to illistrate the principles of movement/reaction of the human form, in combat?

I am not sure what you mean by fixed applications. If you mean limiting application practice to a single defense application for a given sequence, then I would say that is an extremely limiting approach to using kata for self-defense. Joe Swift has translated Mabuni in an old thread here writing kata must be freely applied. Even Funakoshi has used the same phrase.

IMHO, the more a school emphasizes the use of specific sequences for a wide variety of attacks, (as well as combination variations for specific attacks), the more a student will realize the flexibility and depth of kata movements, and may then be motivated to take Itosu's 6th lesson to heart and independently seek good applications as well.

Kakushite
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 08/29/06 06:57 AM

I absolutly agree that after ones 'basic' training the art should be principle led to explore the variations and scope of said principles.

In my dojo this happens at shodan, not really before, well ok a little bit..........LOL
Posted by: ANDY44

Re: Kata - Bunkai/Oyo - 09/03/06 08:23 AM

[quoteIf the attack comes from the side, you have to move off line to make your Naihanchi technique work. Now, however, Nahanchi's strict adhearance to only left/right movement, and the tedious 1,000 repetitions you have put into it can be your enemy - not your friend.

Try to let it sink in that point is simply one of how training functions - not a criticism of a particular kata. I believe we fight as we train, pure and simple. If your training is mostly Okinawan/Japanese style kata, with all their movements that "represent" techniques rather than "being" the techniques, what you will have ingrained is the representation - not the technique.




How training funtions. I think naihanchi is one of the most miss understood katas.