THE Channan thread

Posted by: Ed_Morris

THE Channan thread - 07/12/06 01:29 PM

Here are the past discussions:


"Channan Katas"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/136367/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

"Pinan/Heian vs Channan"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e=0&fpart=1

"Channan anew"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15867890/an/0/page/0#15867890

"The truth about the Channan's!"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15868064/an/0/page/0#15868064

threads with some references to Channan:

"Lost art or Change for best??"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15809991/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

"Heian/Pinan"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/221820/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

"Heian/pinan Kata or Kata(plural)?"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...rue#Post9853670

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This thread is the only allowable thread on this topic, any others which are created will be locked and referenced here. also, any off-topic sub-topics in this thread will be deleted. I'm not restricting conversation, I'm consolidating it for everyone's conveinence. your welcome.

ok, let THE Channan thread commence ...
Posted by: aoishi

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/12/06 04:28 PM

Thanks for bouncing the dweebs!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/12/06 10:54 PM

I'll pose a re-starting point. There are a few things about a kata in general that are interesting to note, but don't add one minute of experience to the actual practice of it. kata are physically learned from an instructor, and practiced for years. no other way. even if someone found the rosetta stone with a lost kata scribed on it, it would be just movements just a choreography without meaning. Thats enough for many. They 'want' the kata - but what they really want is just the hollow shape of it. This 'want' is satisfied by providing it to them...for a price of course. video or seminar take your pick.

This is why all the people who come on here and say they have a rare, esoteric, protected or lost kata aren't willing to provide an mpeg for it. ...since THAT is their product! why give it away from free?

some will say they will teach it for free, but you need to come to them. do you really think it's free? years ago, I got a call from a place in Cape Cod telling me that if I go to their 'open house' of condo sales, then I get a free stereo. NO obligation and it's free...just show up, listen, then claim your gift. cool! I thought. The pressure they put on people to commit to something before leaving with their free piece of junk plastic stereo was incredible. My drill seargant could have taken lessons from these marketing nazis of how to mind-screw and psych-battle fatigue people. needless to say, I didn't sign on the dotted line and got a slave-labor made stereo tossed to me. It really wasn't worth wasting the day.

before wasting a plane ticket or going out of your way in time or money, if anyone claims to know and teach something to you, make sure you:

A. know and trust someone who recommends checking it out or has trained at least once with the SAME person you are going to see.

B. Realize that 'secrets' can't be given in one sitting or viewing. They are physically realized over a period of time of practice and correction.

C. Insist on seeing a clip or video of at least a taste of what you'll be shown.

D. don't be pressured into anything you aren't comfortable with. 'peer pressure' and 'guilt trip' tactics come to mind.

realize before all of this, that anyone claiming to teach for free loudly, obviously doesn't have enough students for a reason. The reason could be anything from, they don't have anything worth staying for, to they are 'spreading their word' for free in the hopes to attract attention that they can charge many others for later. organizational recruitment comes to mind. "join are org! it's free!" uh-huh.

Good instructors are simply not loudmouths or braggarts.

back to the Channan topic...have a good thread.

p.s. I have a theory: Channan is not the name of a kata at all...it's a girl's name who knows 'ALL your secrets'.
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/12/06 11:17 PM



How did you know that Ju-C's middle name is Channan?

Page
Posted by: butterfly

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/12/06 11:17 PM

Quote:

and got a slave-labor made stereo tossed to me




Now, that is f'n funny!
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 12:06 AM

Hi Ed,

As I've been teaching free for 29 or so years which of the following applies to me?

"realize before all of this, that anyone claiming to teach for free loudly, obviously doesn't have enough students for a reason. The reason could be anything from, they don't have anything worth staying for, to they are 'spreading their word' for free in the hopes to attract attention that they can charge many others for later. organizational recruitment comes to mind. "join are org! it's free!" uh-huh"

Of course I've probably had several thousand students over the years (never kept records just taught), and the instructors i've developed also do the same. Then again I'm not looking for students, or want to share anything.

In fact if someone wants to study, say the Gojushiho we have I'm glad to teach it, but that only comes roughly 12 to 13 years into the program. While I teach for free I only teach one way, always from the beginning, regardless of previous training. Perhaps that's my price?

Then again I have always been willing to share for friends, but perhaps that's not teaching?

I just want to make sure that I'm describing myself accurately.

Of course from my point of view I have about the same opinion of anyone who teaches for money (or pays for instruction) <GRIN>

Unless you're not referring to me, then I guess I better start charging you?

There are no simple answers. I've studied with great instructors for free and I've also studied with great instructors who charged me $1,000 a form.

I would suggest it's not the cost, but the knowledge and effort that are more important.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 07:02 AM

Hi Victor, you mistook my message - the key word in my statement was 'loudly'. teaching for free, voluntary 'donation', or monthly fee by itself doesn't make a difference. besides, you have never struck me as a recruiter of what you do.

I was pointing out my subjective opinion that people who advertise LOUDLY, have a reason for doing so that most likely isn't because the stuff is so good they want everyone to have it. but rather, they want everyone to have it because what the loud advertiser gets in return is oh $o good.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 08:11 AM

Ok Ed,

I understand, so if I am of the opinion that what I do is GREAT, I must not be loud about it.


Then does saying what I do is g*r*e*a*t look quiet enough?
Posted by: senseiaverywax

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 08:25 AM

You folks have be-littled me cussed at me called me a liar said that I am children playing a game among other things. In order to discredit me and laugh at me. however what you do not see is that there are those who are laughing at you! There is a sample of the real Channan kata contained here in all our postings it has been here, even before I ever made my first post or joined your talk group it is actually what lead me here. I did not post it here! Now imagine you think I am a stupid fool!; but you know so little about Karate you can not see what is under your nose!

I could charge to teach the kata or I could write a book and charge for that, but I do not beleive in that. I have been told that Al Martin Jr Sensei and Paul Hart Sensei plan to or have one in the works. Imagine your surprise when you find out I was telling you the truth! As you will notice my conduct is impeccable I have not cussed or said anything inapporpriate if you think I may have consider it is your dity mind not mine that thinks it!

Also please do not Source My statement these are not my sources. You may think you are helping, but you are not the source you give had to get its info somewhere to.Did you list its source?
Posted by: senseiaverywax

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 08:28 AM

Victor,

Strange we actually agree on this!
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 09:03 AM

I'm probably wrong. appologies all around. guess we'll have to wait for the book (knew there was a product in there somewhere). btw, would the book really 'prove' what you say is correct about Channan if the authors drew from the same source you did?

for instance, I would bet that the Channan version from the Motobu family line is probably different from yours - who's right?

but here we go 'round and 'round.... lets try a new approach: could you describe the opening move/sequence for us?

thanks, and I appologize for sarcastic tone when this discussion turned to a downward spiral. I'll try harder to keep a straight face.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 10:11 AM

Quote:

As you will notice my conduct is impeccable I have not cussed or said anything inapporpriate if you think I may have consider it is your dity mind not mine that thinks it!




Quote:

He when I die Ed gets all my war Relics for opening his poop shoot to far!
-------------------------------------------
we call you SumDumBoy!

Who's your Daddy
-------------------------------------------
COWARDS COWARDS COWARDS>>>>>>>>
-------------------------------------------
What kind of Doc. are you a Proctologist I got this crack well you do believe in Doctor Patient Confidentiality Don't you. Heck! you can give me my next Colonoscopy you know they use the same scope in everybodies mouth (endnoscopy) that they use in the rear (Colonoscopy) call me whem you turn 50 we will talk about it.





Yup, my dity little mind.

By the way, you never told us who it was you talked to on the pone from this forum.
Posted by: senseiaverywax

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 05:55 PM

#1 They asked to keep it confidential #2 It is none of your business as it did not concern you personally!
Posted by: senseiaverywax

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 06:06 PM

O.K. Ed I will try to keep a straight face as well; except for my brownspots and wrinkles.

If you do not mind may I ask if you know Junji Kata Sometimes called Junjiro on Okinawa? Did you find where the opening and first part are in the old post here? I will go back and find it; but it's a little confusing since the post were moved.
Posted by: cxt

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 07:37 PM

Avery

So they "asked you to keep it confidental" so you being the trustworthy guy/gal you are--you instantly post it on a public forum that gets 1000's of hits per day?

Yeah, that makes sense.

And since it "does not concern" any of use--you again, post it on an open forum that gets 1000's of hits per day?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 08:16 PM

could you describe the opening move/sequence of Channan for us?
Posted by: senseiaverywax

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 09:29 PM

No one knows who it was or what the conversation was about!
Posted by: senseiaverywax

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 10:05 PM

Do you Know Junji Kata? The Opening of Channan is already posted on this forum in past posts. Have you found the tape of the Original Pinnan's from Itosu yet. Can you explain the opening of Naihanchi I will try our version you tell me if you can follow then I will atempt the Channan. These are my own words. Nahanchi the embussen is a horizontal line done from right to left Right side is first you are in middle of the line. Chokuritsu-dachi feet at 45 heels together right leg steps out rt hand swings from dan-tien to inverted knife hand moves around to grab oppnents head pull down into left elbow into side of face neck is reversed to side headlock punch left hand across your body into temporial mem. right leg steps behind left leg(kosa Dachi) down block Gedan Uke with left hand to block opps kick next step out into shikko Danchi middle horse stance rt hand punches across your body to hit them in the ribs. next right hand does an opening block then inside tetsui to mandible rt side then cross over to left side rt ipon ashi dachi rt fist hits carotid then left ipponashi dachi hits catotid across the other side hands then swing through to right hand side movements are then mirrored to the left. see if you can follw our Naihanchi I am terriable at typing and worse at explaining things in typed words. This was like torture to me trying to put kata into words. Much easier when student is in front of you an can see what exactly you mean. This is why I don't teach by print and I feel video althogh you may see what is being done you can,t see yourself if doing wrong to know you are doing wrong and be corrected. See not sure I can even follow it.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 10:59 PM

Mr. Wax,

I'm trying to put some linkage to this wide ranging discussion that has frequently lost its way.

There is only so much anyone can do in a discussion group.
Having spent the last hour or so reading through all of the posts on FA.com regarding channan kata, as well as reviewing my own files of discussions on other groups (involving Multiversed and Paul Heart too) it's very clear that there is a real failure to commnicate or for almost any of the sides to understand that they're not taking the time to listen to what is being said.

Then human huberis takes over and blood, which is bull ****, fit for trolls not people trying to share in the arts.

So let's look well.

1. I'm less than perfect but I haven't found a description of how to perform your Channan Kata opening.

2. I've used multiple search engines, and have also referenced all of my library, and find no mention of Junji Kata anywhere on the inernet, in John Sells book Unante, or elsewhere.

That is not proof it doesn't exist, it's just proof that your kata is a private tradition and people outside of your tradition have no knowlede of it.

I suspect you know that well, which questions why you ask about it?

If your tradition should be secret then why haven't you kept it so. Of course it's your choice.

Channan Kata (going back to theme) is likewise almost a mystery.

Historically there are a few references to it, but it is not practiced for whatever reason across almost all of other Okinawn karate. Perhaps that's by design. Perhaps that because it was kept secret and Nobody on Okinawan outside of one tradition knew about it.

There is no proof, outside of your oral history that I can find. Oral history is fine for those in a tradition, but it does not constitute proof for outsiders.

If what I've read is correct, and its a source kata for what became Itosu's Pinan sho and ni, just more chinese, I'm happy you keep your own traditions alive.

But nothing that's out there proves it.

Channan has become a growth industry. There are books and video tapes from several sources (I've sourced previously) and by your own words and Paul Heart's, there is a book in the work to show us the truth.

But of course, how do we prove that book is right? Unfortunately I have hundreds of books in my karate library, and have thrown more away. Many books I thouht were right when I bought them in time became far less right.
Just publishing something does not make it true. It just allows others to make up their own minds.

Not bad or good, just the truth.

And the only ones who will buy it are those seeking a particular history.

I undestand how the great Depression, population increase and lack of space drove Okinawa in the 20's and 30's into disporia. Okinawn communities did spring up in Japan, Singapore, Hawaii and South America among other places.

For the most part those Okinawan's remained in a closed community, with occasional outside sharing. Yes those communities kept karate alive there, and yes many of them were based on traditions that left or died out on Okinawa.

Okinawan karate has always been alive. It has always grown from generation to generation. those old master quotes of 'NEVER CHANGE KATA' are pure BS for new students ears. For everyone has changed the kata, or as it was never really documented, nobody can prove their unproven system hasn't changed either.

So we're left with Channan as a complete enigma, a question mark that won't stop any tradition that uses it but it won't make a difference for those who don't use it either.

By way of example, does anyone watching the seniors here http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&mode=related&search=uechi%20ryu believe they're looking for something else? Nor do the rest, nor do most of us.

I've been doing this a while, not as long as you, and I'm not a Marine, though my original instructor was and got his training in Okinawa. I've never met a serious Martial Artist that was looking to hang in their art, though they do look at others to try and understand what others do.

For myself I've trained more than a few places, and my real desire to understand the rest is to look for the best way to take them out, using my own arts. Sure I'm oversimplifying things, but it is a core argument.

If the big deal about the "Chinese Sources of Okinawan Karate" was really a big deal, then why the heck does anyone study Okinawan karate, why not go to the real stuff, the original Chinese Arts.

But then take it a next step? Which are the strongest Chinese Arts, why play with systems that karate borrowed from, why not go for the real stuff?

That really isn't happening. Some might market pieces of that, but that's all. The Okinawan's while acknowledging there are Chinese roots, don't look to China. They train their students.

And I, here in New Hampshire, just work with what we have.

Thank yor for your Naifanchi kata analysis. I can follow what you write. Of course the Isshinryu Naifanchi kata starts off in the opposite direction, but I won't quibble because you're going the wrong way (that is a gentle josh, not a challenge).

Unfortunately I've studied its applications in different ways. From a marvelous Shotokan instructor his applications have absolutely nothig to do with the form, they just drop people very effectively. From one of my Isshinryu Seniors, he took that section and broke it into dozens of applciations, all of which drop people with just the kata technique. For myself I do what I must, but I strongly look to the lower body work for applications too.

Then again I really see Naifanchi as a way to increase abdominal power for Chinto, a real fire breathing kata in my book. Which is why I don't focus much on beginning technique answers from other systems.

I see no rational way anyone can prove or disprove any of this discussion about Channan.

If as I suspect, I'd see your kata, and your people had their act together I'd agree it has its use.

but so to many many things.

And of couse you have many kata nobody it appears has seen, uses, or knows about.

So the issue is really multiplied for each one of them.

Perhaps Mr. Hart's book will make a difference, if of course any of us can afford to buy it as the price of gas continues to rise. Then again I remember when gass was in the teens, and also penny postcards, 5cent hershey bars and cokes and other fun times.

Let's just try and share, enjoy our sharing, and always keep a healthy skecptism about everyone posting.

Especially mine. after all why should anyone believe me?

I hope you don't and contine to over look my practice.

In the long run that really makes my life easier, for I can hit you were you're not looking.

pleasantly,
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: THE Channan thread - 07/13/06 11:15 PM

Victor, well said and a nice wrap-up.

Avery,
lol...I did picture what you typed. what I saw is your opponent just standing there in each sequence. you described dead application of a different kata. thanks though, for trying.

it's obvious this thread will not contain either significant technical merit nor add further thought as to the whereabouts of this kata.

I'm locking it up, people. pm me if you have something to add. new threads on this subject will be locked and referenced here. If the question is on topic and new, I'll reopen the discussion.

Private message the Avery Wax character if you feel like reading the....things that he has to write about this kata. It just gets tiring for some of us, and frankly, the games being played are old and not worth the bandwidth.

I'll leave this thread with the last desparate attempt to point people who are truely interested in the subject, in a sensible direction.

for further research:

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=127
http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/jt_heian_pinan.html
http://karatethejapaneseway.com/karate_u...f3deb70afcb022a