Origins of Gojushiho

Matt,

You asked "But I have always been Interested in why so many versions of Gojushiho. Seems the same way with Hakutsuru! Most of it may be a bit political among the styles even."

Back when most of the changes occured, creating the different lines of Gojushiho, there were not styles.
Styles really began to arise in the 50's or so.

There were just instructors who had different roots, and because real karate in those days wasn't documented, all we have are oral legends why change occured, if that even was passed on.

The old line "Kata must be unchanged" is, was and always will be words for beginners, not karate-ka. Becuase all the instructors uttering those lines changed their kata one way or another, especially as they could not point to a reference that what they're showing is really the old way.

The likely reasons for change were,
1. time - as one learns more their undertanding of their art changed and the kata followed.
2. forgetting - perhaps a kata was placed on the back burner, and a memory gap arose, something filled that gap and a new version may result.
3. new insight - a new attack is imagined and a new response is created and the kata changed.
4. public performance. many Seniors had a tradition of never performing their kata correctly in public (so it or it's true intent could not be 'stolen'). So they changed it for those performances (which sometimes continues to this day, in the 70's Demura did a Jiin or Jion in one of the magazines, one section was intentionally reversed so he could always identify anyone who tried to learn it from the magazine.) And perhaps that performance was so good the changed version stuck.
5. It really doesn't matter if the kata changes if the performer can make those changes work

On the whole you see less change as time passes in a gojushiho than you've seen in a Seisan or a Patsai. It was simpler to muck around with the simpler kata, IMO.

Does it make a difference, absolutely not. Intrinsically all Gojushiho versions can stop any attack, which is the core of Gojushiho or any other kata, as technique repositories.

Hakutsuru is even more problematical, as in most Okinawan traditions it was not present. Here I honestly believe many whooped up Hakutsuru to try and prove they were linked to some mythical tradition. But the proof in the pudding is can they make each technique in their Crane form work. If so who cares where it came from. If they can't who cares anyway.

pleasantly,

a question I have for this thread is: why did he choose Gojushiho to be the one to study and analyize in this manner exclusively? and does that decision base itself upon the kata's believed origins?



Hi

Im not sure Ed meant your self?

Did you? Ed??

Hi victor

I posted this in the wrong thread.

I was refering to some katas not particuler the kata that is being discussed here.

One thing I will say though is some one stated this forum is thought provoking.

Well my thought process is some what tired at the moment

And even during a heated turning bad debate information that is required can come through.

Any how this thread is for a kata that I have never heard of or practiced.

Thanks

Andy

Andy, rather than deal with the abstract where we keep taking past each other too ofen..

Which version of gojushiho and which techniques are you talking about. can you go to yahoo or youtube and find something similar?

At a real level almost any technique can be successfully applied if you've been sufficiently trained. Of course that make take a decade or two for some techniques but if you eperience someone who can do it then it's not impossible.

I practice a version of Gojushiho, but it is rather unique as it is similar. Boomer on this list practices it too. And I've seen many others.

So lets get in the dirt, actually what techinques really can't work. i'd like to see what you're referring to, and make up my own opinion.

Of course one of my instructors shared a way of looking at the 8 isshinryu kata and using the movements for 800 applications with no changes. I might see things a little differently than you do.

pleasantly,

Sensei Sommers,
Greetings, that is part of the reason why I am looking for the origins of this kata. I think it will help put into perspective as to why so many versions of this kata exist. I am aware that it is mentioned as 54 steps of the black tiger in the chinese bubishi. Problem is, that there are 2 chinese bubishi's, and about 10 random okinawan and japanese versions.
I don't recall the source, but I remember coming across a "story" about a warrior that had to defend himself against a large number of men and how he killed them all with the tiger techniques which inspired the black tiger kata.
oosh - okage sama de !

I was told a long tie ago that the number Gojushiho (54) represented traveling half-way up the 108 steps of a typical Ch'an/Zen Buddhist Temple -or- in other words your journey in the Shaolin Temple way is half complete when you master the kata.

The origin is somewhere in China. I don't think any other specifics are that salient.