Bunkai video clips

as always Medulanet you have given me something of significant interest to have a think about! My thanks to you on that.

Hmmmmm hard one.

Question posed: "What's an example of a Bunkai technique against a Jab, Cross combination from a decent boxer?"

Answer given: "It really should be rephrased to read, what bunkai technique can't work against a jab, cross combination from a decent boxer?"

From my experience almost any kata technique can perform such a minor task.

Look if we want to be exact using a term I dislike, 'bunkai' lets use it in is normal Japanese meaning, being to take apart, such as a mechanic bunkai's a car.

In that sense you might bunkai a kata to understand the underlying techniques. Nothing more.

Bunkai exploration then is a way to look at the tool box, or techniques. Once there is an understanding there is the requisite training program to takethe understanding to the desired level.

For most martial beginners, a standard straight punching attack is used to teach several underlying principles. 1) showing the basic underlying usage 2)Learn how a technique fits into the space offered.

But teaching a beginning undestanding isn't very much of karate's potential. You then need to randomize the attack to anything that is thrown. You need to learn how to change your orientation to the attack to deliver the technique. You need to understand the multitudes of options available. And of course you need to ramp up the delivery of that technique to flow through any attack.

Now I'm going to make some assumptions. Your 'decent boxer' is coming at you head on, and they're not obeying the rules of the Marquis of Queensbury, including gloves, but they're bare knuckling it with their one/two.'

Change the direction, change the 'rules' and the response changes.

But I'm going to assume they'll just right foot forward right jab to follow with a left cross.

What shall I 'bunkai'?

Well as an Isshinryu stylist I'll begin at the beginning. the first technique is the Isshinryu version of the jab, but fortunately we've never worried about boxing gloves and always worked bare knuckles.

Against their jab, the simplest answer is to counter-jab on the inside of their jab, driving it to the outside, and slamming into their throat/jaw. Properly done they aren't going to get to their cross.

Or perhaps I'' begin with Seisan Kata's (Kobayshi Ryu version) Reverse punch that turns into a right side block.

But instead of playing games I'll strike across into the jabbing arm's shoulder with my ridge of knuckles from my vertical strike. And then I won't be as plebean as use the strike to parry the cross, no I'd use the side block/strike to drive my thumb into the side of their neck,and again they'd not get to their awesome cross.

Or perhaps I'll use the cross stepping of Naifanchi kata to just blast through their knee or lower leg, dropping them to the floor and there's no one-two to play against.

or... we believe me I can go on and on.

It's all what level we feel we need to train up to, but I doubt there are many karate techniques that can't stop this imaginary decent boxer.

It all depends on how far someone wants to train. It's not the technique.

Of course many of the kata contain the one two also, but I don't normally recommend that (for an interior line of defense) because they you might be looking like that decent boxer..... of course if you're taking the exterior line of defense, that's a whole other picture.

The purpose of kata isn't really an series of encyclopedia's of technique. That's far to limiting. The purpose of kata is totally for it's real chinese ancestors, that of superior energy development and release.

Then the other layers of training to link that energy into technique application

Of course the boxer has their 1/2 or 1/2/3, the well formed karate-ka has infinity of technique potential on their side.

And more importantly, the best tactical theory, which follows ancient directive, strike them from behind when they're not expecting it......

What can I say, when your right your right. I still think it would be hard to actually apply those techniques against a Jab cross combination or a couple Jabs, but, your right on with the idea that it's how oyu train that's important rather than the technique, and, I have to believe that kata would contain techniques against every major type of assult including a boxer's fast punches. Thanks for the input, it's much appreciated.

Great applications Old Man, where do oyu get that stuff? keep it coming.

Stormdragon,

Ponders, 'I still think it would be hard to actually apply those techniques against a Jab cross combination or a couple Jabs'.

Well let's think about that. The first solution I gave is the Isshinryu version of that jab. If you're training against a jab at speed, you learn how to make it work or your get hit until you learn to make it work. Which is no different from how a boxer trains (and let's be honest most people who try boxing leave rather quickly when they get hit around a bit....leaving...).

The difference between the classical 'bunkai' and the boxer is the way they're delivering their strike. THe classical bunkai steps forward while striking (leaving hang time to work counters). The boxer stays within themself as they strike, and on the whole move or shuffle forward to force you into their zone to blast away, and toe to toe its who hits frist and more often (still occassionally accuracy wins too).

That's the biggest flaw against the boxer, in the ring they can back you up till you're a target. When there's no ring, if you have the awareness to stay away from 'walls or cars or such' you don't have to play their game, you can more more freely, and try to get them to drive into their strike, giving more hang time.

But tactially speaking you can always wait non aggressively - your hands down, and if they're the aggressor you can turn your seeming inability to respond to an opening for other kata techniques.

The most frequent question about karate is you see one sort of training and assume that it covers everything. I kind of remember a dude named Motobu who had a counter for that boxer, once upon a time. Oooops did is it wrong to talk about actual events? Of course he had no restrictions about what he could do...but then again nor do I.

So while I could respond in kind, jab and cross, exactly from my karate vocabulary, there's nothing against me being stubborn and using karate outside of their range.

If I haven't prepared myself to handle that attack, I should be training harder to make it work.

One of my friend/instructors had his own answer for practice. He allowed any sort of attack, and you have to begin your defense from your arms hanging down at your sides, and of course the defense was only within the thousands of karate applications he taught.

It's even more fun when you want to begin with someone trying to do a shoot and you actually work karate responses for such, simple things where you slam a single knuckle strike into their eye orbit, a technique from Seisan.

Of course you have to train 'down' to that too.

pleasantly,

I guess it's back to being a matter of the fighter not the art. By the way, we don't know just how good Motobu's boxer opponent was.

Storm gets to the heart of one issue with "By the way, we don't know just how good Motobu's boxer opponent was."

Very true, but then we don't know how good your theoretical boxer is either, or how good our theoretical karate-ka is too.

I normally spend very little time worrying about cross art attacks, but yesterday morning my students had some fun trying to use your jab/cross on my humble Isshinryu beginnings. They were quite supprised how the Isshinryu lead hand strike cut right through the jab.

Whether we have it right or not, I often take the time to use some of this discussion material for object lessons in class.

It ALWAYS is the person, NOT the ART.

Because even in an ART, any ART, the variety of options and points of view is staggering.

There is no single discussion, POV, or video clip that really describes any art's potential. All those things do is show what they are. Nothing more, nothing less.

BTW the reason I rarely spend any time worrying about other arts is simple statistics.

Take wrestling, over the last century there have been what hundreds of thousands of american's who've studied wrestling. Where is there a body of evidence that their deadly art has been regularily used on the street.

There have also been thousands and thousands of indivdiuals who've studied boxing. Where is there a body of evidence that their deadly art has been regularily used on the street.

In the antidotal cases you're more likely to find someone who slightly trained in those arts used them, but the more intensly the indivdiual trained (ie, the better they really are) the less likely they are to ever have used it.

But the antidotal evidence the real fighers are the drinkers. I bet you the magintude of people getting in fights who've been drinking is millions of times more likely to occur.

So realisically who are you worried about? Trained fighters in any art, or sloppy drunks who have their senses turned down and are likely to pop off at any time.

I'm far more concerned about people drinking losing it and countering them, than any skilled MA.

You have to take a hard look at the BS of internet discussion compared to where the blood actually flows.

IN this hypothetical subject of what if? Is this super fast boxer or boxing techniques gloved or un-gloved?


Because if our super fast boxer/boxing technique is gloved then you might have problems unless you have trained realy hard using your karate technique to match him.
Namely for starters move your head?Plus however many more techniques that can be used in this scenario?



Now if our super fast boxer/boxing technique isn’t gloved then THEY have the problems namely because unlike KARATE TECHNIQUE (end of upper case) they could be be hitting with the wrong part of their hands and there hands will not have any conditioning(99% perhaps)



Most of the boxers I know. and indeed street fighters, who have fought at sometime ungloved can no longer fight effectively just using fists because of a few knuckles not being where they should be. This bunkia to such scenarios shouldnt take much to figure out.


Please exscuse this article if it sounds somewhat sarcastic but I am a wee bit fed up with the seemingly idea that boxing punching is better than karate punching.

It isnt.



Karate punching has hooks and all types of wonderful punches and counters.


THEY ARE FOUND IN MOST KATAS.

Thanks

Take it from me Motobu was good .

How do I know?

Because he is on black and white film.

How good was his boxing opponent? pass.

Spose the boxer didnt last that long to see.

no Art has an exclusive copyright on technique. There are skillsets, training methods and solid tactics in western style Boxing just as there are useful aspects to Chinese boxing. instead of thinking in terms of which one is better, perhaps it's a far more useful exercise in determining either combinations of method or different views of method which make sense to you as a martial artist.

put it this way: learning western style boxing might give ideas on how to improve your karate. while learning Aikido could give a new perspective to expanding one's Jiu Jitsu. When looking at MA as a whole, there are far less lines of separation.

when things start to go wrong is when your training is static for years on end. then, when you expect a bad guy to throw that oi zuki and step into zenkutsu dach when he attacks - instead you get attacked by a rushing tackle and freeze for that critical second not having developed an instinctive response to such an attack. your subconscience gets confused for a sec saying 'whaa? hes attacking wrong!' ever try defending against an MMA style 'ground n pound' that everyone makes fun of or assumes the answer is in never to get in that position? bad logic. given the infinite amount of scenarios we could find ourselves in someday, finding ourselves defending from our backs to the ground is not so wildly impossible to imagine...now imagine being in that situation defending against a knife. thats a whole lotta reality to learn on the spot.

at least awareness in other things can NEVER be a bad thing, and only serves to improve our Art of choice.

I guess, properly trained, any art or fighting system is equally effective for the most part(other than the fact that boxing only uses hands). I think we should look more at how different arts can improve our overall fighting skills and our base arts. I know boxing has tremendously improved my overall fighting skills, but TKD, Karate, JJ and whatnot has filled in the gaps. We have MMA for a reason.

I think there is value in learning a base Art for a good 5-10 years first and either sticking with it, expanding upon it, or shifting to another.

personal choice really, but I think having some sort of base is important.

Well I sure did the opposite of that.

Generally, with a few exceptions, it's best to strike your attacker first, at least once or even several times, and then follow with a joint lock or grappling move of some sort.

Head block?????

for obvious serious/unknown self defense I agree, however there are times (proberly more likely for the most of us) that a 'passive' or relativly 'passive' response is preferable.

When Gran has 1 brandy to many and swings at you over the christmas table, springs to mind........... (best not to finger strike her eyes and then lock her up eh.....).

I tend to train 2 responses - passive and orrible, both have their place in my mind. And of course the passive can easily escalate to orrible as it has the same set up, generally.

True, I do realize that there are times when the dangerous brutal techniques just aren't called for, and in that case some good Judo or BJJ comes in handy.

Well, as I've been learning, I've come up with some pretty good bunkai techniques. I guess as you learn the kata better and become more experienced the bunkai techniques make themselves known.

Anyone want my opinion, lol?


-John

NO!!! lol I think we all know what your opinion is!

K


-John