A new kata every 4 months?

certainly kata from any system should/do contain common elements, however each kata/group of kata does bring in different principles so its important over time to study certain kata, I suppose which ones you study help us allocate a 'system' to our own style.

Kata is withoubt doubt the core of my karate, however without kumite (I dont mean sparring) it does not deliver the application benefits that I train for, therefore the kumite side must be worked, in my case harder than the kata performance.

But we all train for different reasons and no ones wrong really!

After my experience with kung fu, one kata a year sounds like an enormous amount of time. Even four months per kata sounds like a lot, especially considering the length and complexity of most karate kata (not long or complex at all, compared to many kung fu forms). Of course, karate training usually consists of a lot more basics drilling than my kung fu did. When exhaustive bunkai practice for each kata is included in the training time, four months makes more sense.
I had become accustomed to doing a new form every month. Spending a month to learn a form is enough to get the movements down. Application is another thing, that I wish we could spend more time on. It's gone over in a quick and generalised manner, and expected to be developed during sparring. Of course, there are lots of techniques you can't really practice in sparring, so a lot of things get missed.
A month per form seems like a luxury when you get to more advanced levels, when the forms you test over are taught once a year for a single day each. You are expeceted to learn it in about 6 hours, and then practice it on your own for a few years until you test, getting a refresher once a year.
This is not to say forms are never reviewed...the "basics" portion of intermediate and advanced classes is performing all the forms from previous levels.

The proper amount of time for a form depends on the amount of training time a student puts in, and how fast the student absorbs material. It also depends on the complexity of the kata. I wouldn't make anyone spend a year, or even four months, on a fukyugata kata. On the most advanced kata, definately a year at least. This would be easier to monitor if you have a small number of students. I just don't think there is a single "proper" amount of time that is appropriate for all people and all kata. yes, the more time spent the better you'll get, no matter how much training time you put in or how fast a learner you are...but I wouldn't want to hold someone back who really could handle more.

anybody can learn the movements to kata over a weekend. Look at the guy recently that sells 200+ kata clips which he 'knows' and performs. (@20 years = 10kata/year ).

btw, sparring and kata are simply not compatable. using sparring practice to develop self-defense principals is sorta like using car racing video games to learn how to drive.

sure there is no set amount of time per person, per kata...and what does it matter what others do anyway. I'm not trying to suggest a right/wrong amount of time for everyone - since I could never begin to guess what the different reasons people don't choose to learn kata beyond their dance movements are.

Taking it to the extreme, how about study and practice of a single sequence for a month. how about a single principal for a year?

Is it better to be mediocre and diverse or proficient and specialized? I guess thats the real question of the thread.

I tend to look at it this way. I see the Kata as a reflection of the art and a reflection of an artist. I also look at it as a language. Like you said you can learn the movements in a short period but is that "Knowing a kata". I would like to think that over time what I am doing is developing a greater fluency in that language. There are people that know a form and people that (Know) a form. Much of the knowledge that an experienced practicioner could demonstrate would be lost on the first type of "Knower". My desire is that people who "Really Know" would see that my efforts to learn, apply, and understand the intent of the designer and the depth of their creation is sincere and based in a genuine respect for what they left to us.

Training in shotokan we are expected to learn the pattern of a new kata every three months 9th-2nd kyu this is to fast and means its little more than a dance as you can not begin to break it down and interpret your own applications in that time. I am happy to miss every other grading at least but feel it should be one a year each at least. Jim must be brainwashing me as I now seem to think like him.
Regards Maki

then once you have found the people who really know, its all about working out how to really use that information!

It's better to be proficient and diverse
I'm not saying that the way that kung fu school did things was correct. Not nearly enough time was spent on anything. That's part of why I'm not there anymore, and why I've taken a few of my forms to focus on exclusively for the last year. But what it showed me was that, contrary to the way some martial arts teachers insist on a minimum time period for everything, it is possible to become proficient fairly quickly in some things. It all depends on the focus of training. It seems in many cases that teachers are just trying to "stretch" their curriculum to make it seem like there is a lot there. Because of the length of time that it is assumed must be spent on things, people look for levels of depth and complexity in techniques that were never imagined by the creators of the style. They assume this depth must be there, otherwise why would the tradition be to spend so much time on it? This is not a bad thing...people have made the most out of a limited amount of material, and created applications that are useful and effective.
Also, when we say a month of training, what does that mean? It would be better to put the time in hours of training, or days maybe. Musashi said 3,000 days spent forging the spirit, 10,000 days polishing it. If you're training 20 hours a week, how much can you advance in a month? That's as much training as a person who does 5 hours a week gets in a whole month. So should the 20 hr per week person spend four months on the same thing that the 5 hr per week person does?

It is better to have a strong grasp of what you're doing before you move on. One month per sequence or concept is probably adequate. Training used to be much slower...a year might be spent just doing stancework in some styles. Curricula also was often just one or two forms. Are we better off now, in the modern world, where we have access to knowledge of many different styles and forms? Would it be better to return to the year-long horse stance training?

I don't really know what's best yet. I've experienced the extreme of fast training...I've experienced more common slower training, too (one kata every few months). I haven't tried one year per stance/form yet.
I would say, be as diverse as is possible without sacrificing proficiency. In other words, cater curriculum to individual needs and talents. It's important to be proficient before moving on to something new, however long that takes.

To understand why the old timers in karate would say one would have to spend a year(actually in shorin its 3 years per kata and 10 for kusanku) you must understand their training, the purpose for it, and the complexity of okinawan kata. To assume that okinawan kata are less complex than kung fu kata is ignorant. Okinawans were simple people, but there was genious in the simplicity of their kata. In the old days, pre 1900s, a student would begin with naihanchi. It would take three years to develop the strength and technique necessary to develop relaxed power. In truth naihanchi is all that is needed in a fight. It contains all principles of kusanku which contains most of shorin. The thing is if we don't consider application training there are various levels of just performing the kata that must be mastered. The basic level is simply learning it and then being able to perform it well with the count. The next level is developing the timing of the kata through different counts. Through this training different combinations and sequences of technique can be developed for continuous fighting. You can isolate combination hitting, power hitting, and point hitting from the kata and train these. You can analyze the kata from inclose striking range, clinching range, and on the ground. The final level of kata performance is combat speed in which the kata is performed at a very fast speed while maintaining the integrity of the technique. It would take at least a year of training to developing these levels of kata performance and then when the application work with a partner is added it would take 3 years at a minimum. The same can be said for the rest of the classical kata of okinawa. Just look at Matsubayashi Gojushiho which is an entire system of Udundi or palace hand. If you can become proficient meaning apply principles from this kata for real less than a year after beginning training more power to you.

I believe that Shodan can be attained in 4 years with a 2-3 day a week class. Like I tell my classes you learn in class you train out of class. Some people it takes 8 years to get their shodan others 4 years depending on how they train at home. I can only show you the path its up to you to decide how long and how hard you want to train. The people that train 5-6 times a week (including class room time) and 2-4 hours a day it shows. Time in grade is not the same for each student, students that approach Martial arts like a aerobic class and only workout 2-3 times a week ony in class it shows and they are graded accordingly. But some of the truly inspired students its shows also and I won't hold them back because of class scheduled testing.

I've seen 2 years promised planned black belts they come to class pay to test & march right on through. They look like green belts overall, in 4 years they might look like a BB.

And I've seen 5-6 days a week 4 years BB they looks likes there on his way to Mastering the art and himself there is a difference just like there is in a Ford and BMW.

Some people expect to learn everything in class but my experience is that you learn from venturing out (at 3rd kyu -)and training with other martial artist. Whether its weight lifting, jogging, kata, bunkai, self defense and sparring.
Its good to check yourself and train often outside dojo.

4 Years don't mean anything its how many hours in those 4 years have you have spent studying the art. I've promote several within 4 years and some BB from other systems in 2 years its how they train. IMHO.

It usually take 6-8 years to attain BB in our system. At Black Belt you know the Basic, you've Mastered very little of it.

eidted for grammar BRS

If everyone's karate training was the way you described it, then that would be great. If training included practicing partner drills from the kata over and over again, exploring the kata from different counts and angles, and different applications for the techniques...then yes, you could spend a year on a single kata. Because you would constantly be learning more, even though the movemements are the same. And getting better at applying the techniques through extracting sequences and practicing with partners. Honestly, though...how many people have trained this way in traditional Okinawan karate? Usually the kata is taught without much explanation, or with simplistic and brief explanation of application. It is practiced over and over again, emphasizing the details of hand or foot position and stance rather than the overall principles it is meant to convey. Why should anyone have to spend a year doing this for a single kata?
I guess the issue for me is, if karate is not taught and practiced the way it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, then the timeline for learning that was used back then doesn't apply. It is either clinging pointlessly to tradition, or worse, extending the length of training time to retain students beyond what it would really take to learn what you're teaching.

medulanet, from your words you sound like you'd be a good teacher who understands the real principles of Okinawan karate. Teaching the way you describe would be great, changing up the kata, praciting different combos, drilling with partners on techniques from the kata. Most schools nowadays use up most of class time doing kihon up and down the floor and some sparring, devoting less than half the class time to kata and bunkai (if they have bunkai at all). For the 1 year kata training to make sense, the training must return to the way it was before the school children program, and the Japanese budo transformation. Similar to the way Chinese martial arts were taught and practiced, with small numbers of devoted students.

WuXing, I agree, but I will take it one step further. If a karateka's goal is truly of martial interest and they are just performing the kata as you describe they should just give it up. There are much more efficient ways than simple kata performance. My former teacher trains kata the way you describe and although I have an enormous amount of respect for him there is very little I can learn from him these days due to his training methods. What I did then and what I do now is like night and day.

Yes, I left my kung fu school for the same reason. Maybe soon we will start seeing a reemergence of a more effective style of training.

'Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, not around the eyes'


'your under, repeat after me, learn less kata, learn less kata..........'


LOL

We get a kata every three months or so. At testing we have to do every kata we know for the rank (mostly one kata per rank some ranks you need to learn more then one). I try to do the new kata at least 75 to 100 times a week and the older one 50 times each during the month. My katas are by no means great but they get better every testing and that's the goal at least for me any way.

Hello Ed:

How long can I have a person dissect something before they go insane? Change the channel, incorporate a different song into my knowledge base and return to the original study for more careful examination... repeatedly. If I started someone completely ignorant of kata and gave them all the possible variables instantly.... (magic kata pill...) you'll kill them. I think you start with the basic gross movements, then proceed very slowly...

7-10 years sounds about right...

How long is too long at a given kata? How much time is enough to have a hint of what was originally pretty obvious ... but now whispers new even smaller questions, puzzles?

J

Hi jc4199,

Thankyou for posting your expierience in this matter, please dont feel that you are being critisised for the manner in which your sylabus is introduced to you, you sound like a serious student and i wish you well.

We are discussing the actual process of learning kata and the reasons why different dojo do different things, nothing more than that!

Keep posting!

we can disect kata for as long as we personally want to, my expierience is that they are certainly deep enough just to keep going..............

For me to begin to get under the skin of a kata takes about 3 years, then things seem to start popping out as obvious, and as I have mentioned before I focus on 2 kata at any given time which seems to be right for me, right now its Naihanchi and Seisan.

The real depth of kata can be seen when you start breaking it down and extracting the core techniques/combinations and use them as kata, kumite in different ways, once the principles are being felt then is the time that the lesson learnt can 'rock' all of your karate - I find this most pleasing, its little steps but for me it is real progress when another piece of the jigsaw is found from kata but ripples through all our karate.

ultimatly we need to have the lessons from the kata built into us, and moulded to us, we shouldnt be slaves to form after all - we are all different, its just a process of learning principles that work for each of us.

The U.S. Judo Association sent some emissaries to the Kodokan years ago to see the Judo kata that was being taught. When they demonstrated the kata, it was flawless, but the Sensei leading the tour told them that he apologized for the kata performance. "The people doing it are not our regular instructors, and have only done this kata about a thousand times".

I know people teaching kata that if they've done them 100 times, it would surprise me. I guess it depends on whether you're getting paid to "show kata" or "showing kata" to get paid. In both cases, it's instructors that you see only practicing kata when they're teaching a class.

Motivation has a lot to do with "doing kata". If the only thing driving it is getting paid, then it's going to be what you see going on in karate schools all over the place... barely kata at all. Kata is supposed to change your behavior, and if your only motivation is to "go through the motions" to get paid or to get a check for "going through the motions", it's going to lose an element that it's designed to teach... self discipline.

When I was actively doing a lot of karate training, I did every kata 5 times when I practiced... one time for the movements, once for power, once to check my stances, and twice to attempt to get it all to work together on each technique (rhythm, timing, and balance). I guess it worked, because Mr. Hino (2nd place in the world championships) told me I had good blocks when we sparred.

I don't know if a new kata every 4 months is too much or not, but if you can keep adding them and doing them 5 times each practice, go for it. I think your head gets full after a while, and you start mixing them up. For basic kata, maybe, but if you're learning basic kata your technique isn't well developed anyway, so you need to spend time fixing that first. Then learn some kata.

Hello Shoshin:

Apologies for the delay in response... any idea what the "magic" is with the three year period you spoke of for yourself as finally getting under the skin of a particular kata? Its a time frame I've heard, read endless times previously... merely curious if there was a "what" behind that specific number...

J

Hello Wristwister:

I don't quarrel with the self-discipline facet you speak of but also consider introspection a fundamental purpose as well.

Jeff

The movie "Budo" has a great line in it...

"The secrets of life are within ourselves"...

Totally agree with you that introspection is important. This is one of the pages on my website:


The Superior Man

Turns his attention to himself and molds his character.

Is firmly resolved.

Alone, is capable of being oppressed without losing the power to succeed.

Encourages the people in their work.

Retains his individuality.

Stands firm and does not change his direction.

Curbs evil and furthers good.

Falls back on his inner worth.

Is clear minded and cautious.

Is devoted in character.

Makes himself strong and untiring.

Has direction for his way of life.

I Ching
(collected from various discussions of "the superior man")