Bushido Acadamy of Martial Arts (UK)

It's posts like this that give me the need to respond. (BTW: Your use of apostrophes is very bizarre!)

1. Why does everyone assume that tournaments are a good way of proving your style is the best? If someone is better than you - then why fight? Why not concentrate on getting better? Why waste a day at a competition?

2. What's the big deal with 'orientals' - have you ever been to Japan?

3. You don't know PD and yet you're quick to call him all the names under the sun. You call him purile and you've never met him. I respect the posts of people who are talking from experience - I object to name calling from people who have nothing to base it on.

4. Not everyone believes they have been brainwashed - those posts where people have stepped up to defend Bushido have been flamed quicker than you can say "Martial arts"

5. I can understand relief at leaving. I stopped my piano lessons last year and was quite relieved (I didn't practice and I was finding it hard to come up with excuses as to why I was so bad!). Also it freed up my Thursday evenings which was nice... I now sit in front of the TV which is much more stimulating (!)

6. Not all schools have a defined lineage.

7. Stop talking all this cr*p about money and illegal - the lesson cost £15. You know that. What PD/THe instructor/the school chooses to do with that money is up to them. No one has been lied to about the costs. It may be expensive but it is not illegal. I run a company and I still get cheques in my name... that's not illegal! (Not one person has mentioned money laundering or offshore accounts in fictious names? And what you have written is liablous!)

8. Samuari - if a samuari didn't carry on during a fight - he'd be dead. That's the point. I don't agree with people being forced to continue if they're injured, but it's hard to know what sort of thing the contributor defined as 'injured' - I expect (hope) it's not a broken leg.


Just to summarise: I have no strong alligences to Bushido, but I do want to see fair play. Please can the posts be considered and not just rants and abuse.

Just to add, before any student join Bushido they have to sign a disclaimer form which relieves Bushido's instructors of any responsibility should they injure themselves, or even die i think. I remember making a copy so i'll have to dig it out and quote exactly.

No insurance? No responsibility? Great way to start a martial arts path: If you get hurt then tough siht!

Was wondering how this compares to other organisations because at the time i assumed it was standard practice. In any case, i feel the instructor has a lot of responsibility for safety. Especially if it's a sword lesson, and white belts are waving around live blades.

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-20-2005).]

Those disclaimers are very common over here in the USA. Not sure about the UK.

PS - Oldman, I laughed out loud at the cartoon....then started to cry as I realized that I hadn't yet contributed!

OH THE SATISFACTION NOW!!!

I AM IMMORTAL NOW!!!!

[This message has been edited by MattJ (edited 01-20-2005).]

As has been said, these disclaimers are very common in the US, however it is generally agreed that they are not worth the paper they are printed on.

If you as a student get hurt and sue the school the disclaimers are laughed out of court.

JohnL

How about if you just have a massive Fight.

Bushido Vs Different Styles.

However,

You are not allowed to compete or take part in any form of competition outside of BAMA

If you do you are kicked out.

Sorry this response is so delayed, I do not have daily use of a computer.
WhiteMask, I do not doubt that Mr Delane is a skilled MA, that fact has never been questioned on even the most hostile post here, when i went to my Sensei it was to have an open discussion in the hope that he could put the reasonable doubts raised in this thread to rest. My sensei answered me with conviction and sencerity, yet it was clear that much of the Mr Delane's and the schools history was unprovable and had to be taken on faith. My Sensei has that faith, I sadly was unable to share it. With regards to why he should give me the info, well, I was merely asking for reassurance regards to Mr Delane having a recognised level of skill in Aikido and Sword (his karate having been substantiated by his ZZK history). A quick search of other local clubs finds the instructors proudly displaying their own history on web pages for all to see, not just the enlightened few.
All the literature you get upon joining the school is geared towards portraying Mr Delane as a revered and respected martial artist, who holds high grades in many disciplines and decided to go his own way, with a pure distillation of the best of what he has learnt. For people to have confidence in this it is not unreasonable to ask for his credentials. I do not want to spend years learning the art of the sword incorrectly. Also my work involves patrolling many properties of interest to burgalars and political activists,if i have to subdue or detain someone in a physical incident, i have to have total confidence in the techniques i employ, the way Mr Delane has apparently mis-represented himself makes this impossible in respect to the teachings of his school. I respect the dedication of all MA's but a school founded on rumour and stories of greatness is not for me.

Well I have been reading most of this thread and it seems most interesting.I am a sensei in B.A.M.A and have been training for nearly 4 yrs.There are those around me who have always questioned my invovlvement within this school and it seems many of you out there are also quite disgruntled and yes I have had my doubts in the past however it has never stopped me from wishing to carry on training,why???????
I shall tell you:I have trained in a large variety of other martial arts before B.A.M.A and I had my doubts about them:these doubts ranging from the fact they taught in an atmosphere that was lacking in focus,ranging from half time fag breaks,macho attitudes,a common room type social gathering atmosphere,i.e/ "so what were you doing last night then",they taught me incorrect stances,bad punches(after ONE YEAR in a style a STUDENT showed me I was punching inccorrectly on the basic punch)even asking me what it was I wanted to do in my first private wing chun lesson,now how the hell should I know???? (this lesson was costing me £12 per hour and learning sod all,now thats a con).
Between the undisciplined attitudes and superbly rubbish quality of teaching from the SEVEN various styles that I came across I wasted my time,my money and effort on these charlatans.
Now eventually I stumbled across B.A.M.A in an advert.I joined and YES they do cost £15 per lesson but what I learnt was true quality,bloody good value for money but even to this day I am criticsed.WHY????
I am not a brainwashed man as for all my fighting skill I know it only takes a single blow to kill a person,so I am not a super human "mister ego,watch out here I come",but we do tell our students of the great skill this school will teach them and point out some of the ways in which to defeat other combat styles.As for the origins of this school,well it seems you have already made up your minds so why bother trying to say otherwise-CHINESE WHISPERS ANYONE?????
I will end by pointing out that the modern world will attempt to dissect a flower to understand it and then they may feel less ignorant,yet they never seem to stop and appreciate the beauty of this flower and be happy with the simplicity of this thought..........

p.s You are free to make your own mind in this school,the pressures exist to allow for unbending quality but our compassion exists to teach love for life.I had not always afforded seminars but I never got into trouble I was merely encouraged to go because to become an expert takes experience.I also had money troubles and my sensei offered me free lessons for a couple of months to help out.This school stands for quality and honour,things which I see at all grade levels and within the roots of the teaching system.There will always be those who disagree but you just have to move on until you find something you like....learn to let go and you will find the peace you are searching for.

Hi all, just to clarify right at the start - I am not here to take sides with anyone's particular point of view. I am the former ZZK/ZSR/BBK/BAMA Bristol Instructor 'Skiggsy' had contact with as mentioned slightly earlier in this thread (thanks for getting back to me Skiggsy). Hi Shudin (whoops!), Hi Murray, and Hi to any other former ZZK/ZSR/BBK members that remember the white-hut in Southmead, pre '82 - remember then?, you might remember the 10st skinny teenager. I can vouch for everthing Skiggsy has said so far. I was the only Dan-grade in Bristol at the time of the ZZK/BBK split. I went on a different personal crusade a couple of years later and that's an entirely different story, which has nothing to do with this thread (or BAMA). I have studied many MA's over the years since my time with PD's methods. Some have been good (for me) and others not so good, but one thing all have in common is that eventually, no matter how you skin the cat, there appears to be one "father figure" for any given "way". Whether that person has their credentials stamped by everyone in the current establishment, or not - some people trust in what is being said/shown/taught/studied because it fits what they want to get from the lesson of the day. Others get caught up in commercialist Martial Arts and fall for what I have always liked to call the "look-good factor" - you know; all back-flips and lycra and flashy public shows.

I've preferred to stay with tradition for mind and soul (do unto others as you would like others to do unto you etc...) and take my Dad's advice for real street stuff;

"be nice to everyone until it's time to stop being nice; then be really nasty really quick before them & leave the scene!"

Now, just because Gichin Funakoshi wasn't a samurai, nor a practitioner of Wu-Shu, Goju-Ryu, Zen-Shin-Ryu, Tae-Kwon-Do blah blah - I'm sure you get the picture, did that make him any less respected in his day - who knows? You weren't there and nor was I. Just as he had his own ideas in the late 1800's through to 1957, there are many others now with their own view and their own "way". Breakaway ideas didn't stop Bruce Lee from being respected for his own "way".

Unless there's some undeniable proof of bad practise (I didn't see any in the early days, but can't vouch for now) we should leave it to those who continue to want to pay their money to make up their own mind. Let's not soil the one thing I took from BBK that we could all do with remembering from time to time ..."open mind, clenched fist"... The former has stopped me getting into a whole world of hurt at times, the latter has helped me get out of the situations the former couldn't stop me getting into!

Former BBK/BAMA members - don't slag your roots, it was your choice - don't look to blame someone else if you think you made a mistake - live with it and learn from it. Current members/practitioners, choose wisely and remember it's your money and your choice - Cheap isn't necessarily cost effective! I don't consider any of the money I spent as wasted, and I reckon PD would honour my life membership to BBK/BAMA if I turned up at his place tomorrow (by helicopter, of course!).

Hi guys

Anyone interested in a get-together/reunion?

Old (not necessarily age) Bushido, ZZK students with little to do but talk over old times contact me.

This is a serious suggestion

just typing this to see if anyone is listening......

hi there ma people just trying to get my post reply to work,not very computer friendly,have written 2 posts already but cannot seem to find them on the forum....cannot seem to figure this out,hope this one gets sent......

just sending this message to see if i can get it to post (this is my fourth attempt and so far cannot get the post onto the forum)

I was with the BAMA too. At the end of the day, I felt something was not right. I’m not going to say most things, it’s been posted on here already. I feel I made the right choice in leaving when a great deal of relief swept over me afterwards. Many students I knew in the BAMA had a lot of the concerns as many people and I had so its not just people who have left being critical, I used to talk about the problems with my friends in the BAMA. When we tried to ask questions about what was troubling us we never really got a proper answer and also you felt bad for having questioned Pete Delane.

Most high grades in the academy loved Pete Delane and it was almost eerie the way they talked about him. I can understand their respect for him but he was revered as some sort of God which did actually trouble me a bit. It’s hard to explain why, I guess you had to be there. Also, you were always told about the ‘unpayable debt’ etc and how much should respect Pete Delane but we were TOLD to respect him, not actually think it ourselves. To respect someone you have to respect them, you can’t be told too. (I did however respect my actually sensei, she was a lovely woman and great help to me. That was one of the reasons why I was sad to leave). One reason I couldn’t respect PD was, when I saw him at a seminar, he stopped the whole seminar and told them how crap all other MAs were> People had to put their hand up if they were from another MA (me included) and then he told everyone that why we left was because our other school was crap and didn’t teach proper MA or discipline. That is not why I had left and I’m sure many of the others either. He had never met me yet he told people about my MA background! I think this is a ploy, a power of suggestion as mentioned earlier, which makes people believe his drivel because it is as if he has back-up for it which he doesn’t really, it just seems like it because he says it.

Also, at another seminar we had to stop when he entered the hall and line up along the width of it to hear him speak. One girl who was close to me at the very end of the hall turned her head away from him for a moment because it really hurt your neck to twist it right round and look at him form such an awkward angle and from so far away. He spotted this and sent her out of the hall in front of lots and lots of people for ‘having no discipline’. She was only a girl of about 14 I would say, we had been training all day, he was talking for along time and her neck was hurting. It must have been humiliating for her. I daren’t move my neck after that even though it was hurting and I probably shouldn’t have kept it at that angle. I guess that is one way he exerts his power, by scaring you – slaughter a chicken to train a monkey. I didn’t like that display at all.

Also, I know that if people want to pay the prices that BAMA charge then that is fine but I do have one quibble with the financial side of it. I am still in secondary school and have a Saturday job. I’m saving up for uni and my money is very precious to me. I bought a book from the BAMA costing £60 which PD had written. Now I did agree to buy this book because apparently it was amazing and was so expensive because it was ‘professionally made’. I thought that this was a fair price then. PD obviously had to make a living and he had spent so many man hours on this book and had it made professionally so it was worth the money. However, I felt really conned and disheartened when my book came after I spent a lot of money on it which I worked hard for. It was not professionally made. It was printed on A4 paper with a cheap binder and the front and back covers are photo printer paper (the kind used to print off photos from your computer – it even says ‘HP Invent’ on the back of this paper) so that was the first problem I had with it. Also, a lot of the writing, quite a substantial amount, came from his Zen tapes. I recognised it because we had listened to the tapes many times and even written some of it down. It was exactly the same wording used in his tapes. He had therefore not put much extra work in because he had just copied that stuff. I know he came up with it originally but my point is that it wouldn’t have taken any extra time to write it in the book, therefore shortening the writing time and labour costs. Also, the font is huge with clipart and big gaps making the book quite small if you condensed it. I did feel bad after buying it because I felt as if I had been conned. It mind sound strange to you but I doubt much work was put in to it yet I still had to give more than what it was worth and had been lied to in the process. It especially hit home when your saw PD fly around on his helicopter which I encountered once.

I’m not saying the school does not have positive traits however, but there is always an atmosphere where you feel oppressed and guilty. I think you have to experience it for yourself to truly appreciate it. To me, maybe not to others, it did feel like a religion and if you questioned your God you would feel his wrath. I did talk to others at my time there who felt this way too. You could even sense it in some of them by the way they looked. It really is hard to explain the type of atmosphere there was at seminars etc, you always felt as if you, as the student population, were in the wrong and had to prove yourselves worthy of being taught by such a great man as Pete Delane. I know MAs are built on discipline and respect but I was never shown anytime when I felt respect for PD and you can’t be forced to respect someone, no matter how hard they try.

S

P.S – in regards to the samurai roots things, I was never shown any proof of this even when I asked on numerous occasions. I don’t see the point in lying about it or not answering questions. If it is true then great, but why tell us that’s where our style is from and then not give any details. If you want to keep the samurai roots information for Dan grades then why mention it in the first place? Just something to keep you in suspense I guess, make you feel part of something special. In my opinion, not mentioning your teachers is disrespectful towards them, especially if you are teaching their style.

Please could we have some more info on this.

Is everything PD has said a Lie then ?

If it is how can any student at the school have respect for him ?

Apparantly in his words.
He is very high up in the world of entertainment and has some friends in verry high places. He has confirmed that some of HIS zen teachings are in some block buster movies that he has had some input into.

I guess that is a load of Bullsh1tdo aswell ?

the Ma itself I would say is good, The Bullsh1t and financials behind it all has ruined it.

Looking at the two following extracts from the posts of other contributors:-

No 1)I was at a class with Delane where everyone was isolated, no one there knew anyone else, it was cold, we were left standing around for hours- 'Because his flight from Japan was late.' Everyone is nervous, cold and hungry. Then suddenly he flies in, fancy clothes, two katana, fierce and aggressive, then suddenly warm and fatherly. Then fierce and strict again. A classic push-pull technique that confuses already isolated individuals making them more malleable and trusting.

No 2)Also, at another seminar we had to stop when he entered the hall and line up along the width of it to hear him speak. One girl who was close to me at the very end of the hall turned her head away from him for a moment because it really hurt your neck to twist it right round and look at him form such an awkward angle and from so far away. He spotted this and sent her out of the hall in front of lots and lots of people for ‘having no discipline’. She was only a girl of about 14 I would say, we had been training all day, he was talking for along time and her neck was hurting. It must have been humiliating for her. I daren’t move my neck after that even though it was hurting and I probably shouldn’t have kept it at that angle. I guess that is one way he exerts his power, by scaring you – slaughter a chicken to train a monkey. I didn’t like that display at all.

My question is this, in both instances. Why did you stick around to be insulted like this? From a personal stance in either of the above examples, I would have without any preliminaries and in complete silence, but in a very visible manner obvious to all those there, turned on my heel, grabbed my belongings, exited the building, got into my car and driven to the nearest decent pub for a pint and a meal. I would bet a hell of a lot of others would have followed me out. Anybody fancy a rebellion?

A further quote reads:- They taught in an atmosphere that was lacking in focus,ranging from half time fag breaks,macho attitudes,a common room type social gathering atmosphere,i.e/ "so what were you doing last night then"?

What is particularly 'wrong' with any of the above attributes? Are you some veheminant anti-smoker? everyone I know takes a 'fag-break' both in their working surroundings and in their social life as well. B.A.M.A. Karate, MA, whatever, is only a part of their social structure, there is always therefore a 'social' type atmosphere at any type of gathering. I take it you are a civilian, if you wish to indulge you mind in military type gatherings then 'Join Up', but don't critisise others for enjoying their spare time in their way. If it does not suit you, leave, the same as many are leaving B.A.M.A. in seemingly ever increasing numbers. Who knows, soon there may not be anybody left there, and, this intriguing thread could be redundant

From that which has been posted by numerous contributors. This Delane person comes across as, at the very least, an arrogant little bastard. I take it he is not particularly well developed physically from what I have establisted in this thread. Am I correct in concluding that?

An old boy with a mullet? Is this fella trapped in a time warp, and have the rest of the 'high grades joined him? Beam me up Scotty!! Back to 79 & Millbrook St Gloucester. Not I am told, the most salubrious of areas. Still what do you expect? Thanks for the info Norman.


[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-25-2005).]

S - it is obviously no consolation, but I am feeling your pain. How can any honourable person charge £60 for a product that has so patently cost less than a £5'er to produce?

And as for large font ... equals little to say.

I take it this book has no ISBN number, has not been reviewed by an editior/literary authority, has not been reviewed by peers - didn't the printers of such books used to be described as "Vanity Presses"?

As for only being available to members of the BAMA ... to quote F. Scott Fitzgerald "The strongest guard is on the gateway to nothing, to hide the shameful secret there within".

I also am very p1ssed off about this b00k Bullsh1T.

I remember this at a seminar.

He said we need to have 60 Orders for this book RIGHT NOW so we can by the machine to make the books properly. 60 People ordered the book there and then at £60 per head.

No machine materialized at the book still remains to be printed on a home printer and bound together.

So you are telling me that printer paper, ink came to £3600 pounds ?

I say this as the "book" is still a4 paper and is a fking RIP OFFF

More and More.

I will try and get a scan of this DRAYU ladder Bullsh!t aswell. This is where a Student can pay 300 pounds if he is good enough and get instant Access to the "SECRET STUFF" ???????

Secret Stuff more carrots for us donkeys

What say we start to post some stuff from the horses mouth? I like the idea of scanning stuff and posting it. If it's as good as PD makes out, then everyone will fall at his feet, as long as everyone's not too overly cynical.

So let the masters words speak for themselves. I don't have many of them, but this can act as a taster::::::::::::::::::

[QUOTE]The ocean rides the invisible currents of the invisible force.
Our school feels the winds of the past students and Masters.

We, you and I, can feel the surge of energy that is this school.
We can feel the future surging through the pulsing blood of our new students.

New Dojo's, across the country, are joining our family.
A new direction for our fanatics is beginning.
We have new keen teachers on the way.

2001 was the beginning.............none of us will ever see the end.

New technology is arriving.
Plans for the next big push to assist our sensei's are in place.

Future plans for Master Zen are in place and those who know of it are
very excited.

The past was magical.
The present is exciting,
The future...............................well that is now guaranteed.

We have all done very well.
Delane Academy has it's new banners, and at least two new full time dojo's coming on line
in the next two years.

THE BOOK HAS BEEN RECEIVED WELL AND IS GAINING IT'S OWN FAN CLUB.

AFTER THURSDAY THERE WILL BE NO MORE PLACES BOOKABLE ON MY WEEKENDS.
BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PLACES BOOKABLE WITH MASTER SHUGOSAN.
ASK HIM ABOUT OUR NEW SWORD / ZEN / AIKIDO MUSHIN / MEDITATION WEEKENDS AT OUR NEW FULL TIME DOJO AT GLOUCESTER. THIS WEEKEND IS DESIGNED TO BE A SPIRITUAL WEEKEND OF GOOD VIBES AND PEACE AND HARMONY. THERE WILL BE NO VIOLENT TRAINING AT ALL AND WILL FEATURE VISITING RETAINERS AND OTHER HIGH GRADES. THIS WILL RUN ON A NEW SYSTEM. THERE WILL BE LOW NUMBERS AND ONLY A FEW WEEKENDS OFFERED.
ALL WEEKENDS CAN ONLY BE BOOKED THROUGH MASTER SHUGOSAN.
COTSFIELD IS FULL. I AM FULL.

IF YOU ARE A REAL FANATIC AND CANNOT GET ENOUGH CONTACT ME FOR A PRIVATE CHAT ABOUT YOUR FUTURE. TEL ........................... ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. TALK TO ME. YOU WILL BE SURPRISED AT WHAT I CAN DO FOR YOU. THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.
SOON THIS SCHOOL WILL BE ABLE TO RUN WELL WITHOUT ME RUNNING EVERYTHING
SO APPROACH ME WHILE YOU CAN. ALL CONVERSATIONS WILL BE CONFIDENTIAL.

EVEN I AM AMAZED AT THE FANATISM SINCE MY SEMINAR.
IF YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS GREAT WAIT UNTIL THE SWORD SEMINAR.
LIVE BLADES ( JULY 7TH ).............BOKKENS ( JULY 14TH ).
CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE.
THE BLOOD FLOWS WELL.
[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-26-2005).]

now, i've read this thread from start to finish and i think i've only posted once. the above is the first evidence of PD's thought processes and advertising stick. i think it is geared to pull people in that feel left out in society. people that would be called disenfranchised, so to speak. reading it as printed word with no context it is pretty funny. BUT, having somoene saying it, within a training atmosphere, might just work.

who doesn't want to feel special in some way? what MA can honestly say that (at least when they started), they didn't feel special? the runner's forum i read is the same way; they all feel special because they can run over 20 miles every other day at 5am in 10 degree weather. the miitary guys i know, they feel special because of the stuff they have done, or been trained to do. i could go on and on and add more (so could anyone reading this i bet).

bottom line: take a bunch of average out of place feeling people, give them some good MA training, make them feel special.

i don't like this because it reminds me of jim jones, david koresh, etc etc. people should feel special because of who they are, not derive it from other's opinions or organization.

Kel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hunterkell:
bottom line: take a bunch of average out of place feeling people, give them some good MA training, make them feel special.

i don't like this because it reminds me of jim jones, david koresh, etc etc. people should feel special because of who they are, not derive it from other's opinions or organization.

Kel[/QUOTE]

I agree completely, and have felt from the beginning that instructors make use of the fact a lot of teenagers wanting to do martial arts are bullied, vulnerable and have low self esteem.

I've heard instructors using identical sales pitches for each new student walking through the door, even though the content sounds very personal and special. I feel sorry for the lost souls and can't help feeling like they're being exploited.

I've no doubt that their low-self esteem is very quickly replaced for high self-esteem. But that is just when comparing themselves with people outside the organisation. I remember feeling like i was something really special, and privately dismissing any other school of thought however enlightened it was.

But saying that I've seen high grade instructors still display feelings of worthlessness when comparing themselves with their contemporaries. And even high self esteem, in any context, is still "self centred" and detracts from what i believe true Zen would encourage.

We are all equal. It would do arrogant people a world of good to realise that.

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-26-2005).]

It is quite easy to call Bushido a religion, (and a bad one at that!) as D.H. Lawrence said:
"A man has no religion who has not slowly and painfully gathered one together, adding to it, shaping it, and one's religion is never complete and final, it seems, but must always be undergoing modification. So I contend that true Socialism is religion; that honest, fervent politics are religion; that whatever a man will labour for earnestly and in some measure unselfishly is religion"
If you are not monotheistic, that does not mean you are not part of a religion in my eyes. Bushido has Pete Delane very firmly at its head, very much like a god since they don't support theism, but are more akin to an eastern zen approach. In that sense he assumes the role of Buddha. It's quite easy to see, a state which all his followers aspire towards (but PD makes a point of saying "you'll never be as good as me")

It appears I am probably wasting my time here but to the likes of MIDNIGHTCRAWLER,ADONAI AND S I have to point out that as a student of B.A.M.A I have never been so happy with my martial arts.I am following a style that teaches in a frame of mind of BUSHIDO....look up the definition,try to remember its roots in fuedal Japan and if you can,get past the "chilled out western approach" that all seem to have adopted to these ancient styles which worked because they were immeresed in traditional values,the core being HONOUR and living a Way of the warrior to become the way;this meant discipline which many in todays society dislike.In my Grandfathers day England had more of a polite social structure even in the face of defiance people had decency which in todays modern world is slipping as are the standards of teaching of MANY MARTIAL ARTS WHICH I HAVE TRAINED IN FIRST HAND TO EXPERINCE THE RUBBISH TEACHING.Dont get me wrong I'm sure the teachers in the past who taught me these other MA's were competent at their style but they most definitely lacked the qaulity and core essence of the warrior spirit,which reflected in the level of their teaching skills.No I'm not an anti-smoker(midnightcrawler) but how contradictory and ridiculous is it to train hard with intent and focus then go and ruin that atmosphere and go against the grain of simple physical exercise by having a fag,get real people,if you want a style to maintain any kind of level of discilpline and excellent focus you must keep the feel alive(do you stop halfway between making love to have a cup of tea or watch a spot of telly?????? I didn't think so!!!!!)As for this analogy I merely represent a moment in our lives where we are engrossed towards a dedicated feel.
Hey guys & girls back in the day of the Samurai people were extremely strict,if you know your history then you will understand just how severe these roots are (Seppuku,caste system,dying for one's master etc etc etc........)
The B.A.M.A are in my opinion a school dedicated to teaching as close to Bushido as one can in modern society,taking on board of course the understanding that suicide etc are not applicable parts of the old way.
I have never felt threatened or intimidated yet I have felt a great sense of becoming a part of school that deals with MA in a mature and dying attitude,the school stands almost alone in its approach as the whole of this thread has proven to me,you all seem to want a MA on your terms and when the going gets too tough or serious then you want to back off and moan,if this is the case then fall back into the easy way,go to the schools that allow a degradation of the spiritual way of the warrior but do not become insular in your argument for this thread has bounced around a ( not everyone ) small group of individuals who seem to have nothing better to do but gossip;the more wood you put on the pile the less the wood at the bottom of the pile can be seen (not the greatest koan but I think you might
understand what I'm saying).
I hope no-one feels offended by this post but you have to admit that the remarks made since the original questions have become a bit of a conspiricay theory pointing a finger at that which is frowned upon with people gleefully grasping at that next juicy piece of gossip,if you want to read trash read the tabloids but please remember that one persons universe is a microcosm of the truth ( and yes I know you can turn that around on me but hey who cares? ).
P.S in reference to all bad experiences from past members of the school I must point to you that the school has never forced me to do anything against my will nor has it given me cause to be paranoid I can only say that throughout my life I have learnt that not everything that comes my way is to my liking and so I choose then to move on and enjoy the rest of my time on this earth for I am but a microcosm of this universe........

Hey, Whats in a Name. You don't make a bad case. However, you have missed out a few things which are somewhat important.

1) This is not the era of the Samuri, we have moved on both as a society and in terms of technology. Our mores and norms are no longer the same. Would you want to go back to the days before Penicilin? Millions of people died of the clap & the pox for want of an effective treatment. So why do you all seem to want to turn the clock bacwards?

2) If you have yet to think of it. The 'Busido Art' you so assiduously adhere to was actually made redundant by the Colt 45, Peacmaker Pistol. Ie Man or Woman with sword faces man or woman with pistol; (or unarmed ) the one with the sword dies. Simple really.

3) What you do at B.A.M.A. is I take it not'your living' if this is correct, then it is part of your social life. So socialise. You are quite correct I do not stop for a fag halfway through lovemaking, but, the three best things in life are; a drink before & a cigarette after.

4) I have brought this up previously but like many questioners on this thread, I am as yet waiting for and answer. If the 'training' is so good, why not prove your school to be superior to all others by entering an open tournament? I realise from what has been said that this is forbidden by the B.A.M.A. but why is this so? The only logical reason has to be that those who run the school are scared that they will be beaten, and so the tuition offered by B.A.M.A. will be seen to be not as superiour as is claimed. What is required for those of us not in your school is PROOF, Concrete evidence.

So humour us doubters and give us some proof.

As I said, You don't make a bad case. Not a good one, but not bad. C- Must try harder.

YOU MUST COME WITH ME TO ALDERAAN, YOUNG LUKE, IF YOU ARE TO LEARN THE WAYS OF THE JEDI.
Kel

I'm not trying to 'bitch' about the BAMA. I just want to relate my experences with others who feel as i do. Many people have felt wronged by them and want to talk about their experiences and offer guidance. Many people do feel something is wrong there and want to let others who feel the same know. I was glad when I found out others felt the same as I did because it confirmed what i was feeling for a while.

If you enjoy the BAMA then that's good. Stick with it and learn, just remeber to keep an open mind about it and if you feel something is wrong then look in to it. Don't just accept things at face value. D not let these posts discourage you, my Sensei was wondeful an if you feel like you are learning alot and are enjoying it keep going. I just didn't feel that some of things that were done were right (in my opinion). You may feel differently which is fine.

S

P.s Midnightcrawler, i didnt leave at the seminar because I was getting a lift with other people (i cant drive yet) and I was also confused and didn't really know what to make of it at the time. perhaps it was cowardly of me and i should have done but i didn't really know what to make of it at the time; i didnt want to over react. Hopefully, if something like this happens again, i will have the courage to do so.

Well it seems people are listening to my comments and I would like to reply;
1. I most certainly would not wish to turn the clock back as the modern world has so many positive resoursces as it's finger tips(including this forum),and we are encouraged to embrace the positive in modren life and make the most of all that is good for mankind.

2.Bushido is an old art/way of life and new weaponary will literaly "blow us all" away.The reason for following the old path is not to compete fist with gun on the battlefield as this is highly foolish,instead(I believe and have been encouraged to believe through Bushido) that to follow this way of life I can learn much more than violence,I can learn peace and with a little skill I may be able to protect myself from day to day violence not just by being a MA but also by learning a way of harmony,(ie.control own self emotion so as not to lash out verbally/physically and get into bother).I believe an old Samurai adage is that it was considered dishonourable to "waste" your life in a bar duel when it would be better suited to your master;translate this to modern day thought and our school encourages you to value your life for your own self(as you are your own master).

3.I do socialise and love life and not everything I do is 100% zenish as I am only human and not a drone that some people seem to believe this school creates,(does this mean I'm brainwashed to say I'm not brainwashed or have I yet to brainwashed? JOKE, ha ha ha...

4.Well as for competition I can quite simply tell you that to compete for an ornament that only suffers to boost the ego is an utterly worthless pursuit,it is merely self gratification on the basic animal scale;me um smash,me um win..
Fair enough people like to compete but competition itself feeds the ego and well as self worth yes but at what cost to the self?It creates a means to an end,that end being victory over another human being which promotes a surge of temporary violent attitude or if not violent then still not humble as I have heard the boasts of certain
individuals involved in competitions.This may all sound like liberal drivel but my point is again-Bushido;this is a zenish way of life and not a tool to feed negative self imaging,the whole MA competitions is schoolyard stuff.
We do have Kumite sessions and these help the individual to grow but agrression or competitive attitudes that will lead to an urge only to win not to understand self control,are not encouraged.However please note that teaching a student the strength of mind and spirit to survive(ie.street defence) are encouraged for what use is a MA withiut some teeth?

5. Proof or concrete evidence has yet to be applied to a million different beliefs,systems,ideas etc in this world,and I cannot yet transform my thoughts/emotions via E.S.P so you will not understand my mind as perhaps I would like (only for clarification not domination): please note am often wording diplomatically because it seems people are picking up on the slightest nuance ( X-FILES ANYONE !!!! ) so my only answer is come to a B.A.M.A lesson and make your own mind up for your experirnce is your truth as mine is my truth.

HAVE TO GO NOW MY LIGHTSABRE NEEDS REPAIRING BEFORE MY NEXT LESSON (JOKE)......

hey, "whatsinaname"

you say that competing is just "boosting the ego", "unzenish" (what does this mean!!!) and self gratification on the basic animal scale.

but arent you doing that here on this forum?

Have you ever studied Zen with a teacher outside of the BAMA?

Hey, Whats in a name. You seem to be getting there.

But, (appologies for bad grammar) the way, is not a 'way of life' it's what you do in the dojo in your spare time. You, or anyone else cannot live that 'way of life'in modern society. Why? Because it is unrealistic in modern society, you have to go to work, unless you are very rich (won the Lotto recently?) and as such you 'like many other people', do not have the time and possibly finance available to throw at this. Of course you might be single in which case I could well be wrong, however, if you are married, how many wives or partners would be willing to tolerate the not insubstancial time and money consumed for you to go off playing Samuri and not being with them? Mine certainly wouldn't and neither would anyone I know.

Another thing occures to me. When you bring up the subject of honour. This is something your parents should have taught you whilst you were still an infant or at least a young child, honour being the knowledge between right and wrong and electing to do the right thing, or taking a 'decent stance through life, (not a difficult choice) and by going to an outside organisation after your formative years, you are by implication being highly critical of your own parents. Is that what you really want to be percieved as?

Something which seems to have escaped the attention of those current B.A.M.A. members who have posted on this thread is that B.A.M.A. is a 'commercial organisation' IE, it is there to make profit. You and other members have the absolute right of any other consumer, in any other arena, to question, question and question again until you get the answers which are your RIGHT to expect to be forthcoming and accurate in the N'th degree. It would seem that this is being denied you. Why?

The instance where the young girl of 14 years of age was thrown out for 'lack of discipline' was an appalling demonstration of supreme arrogance against a CUSTOMER, as was the other instance of keeping 'CUSTOMERS' hanging around cold, damp, tired and hungry. The question is. 'What is a customer'? Answer, a customer is the whole purpose of the business enterprise. Did I hear you ask why? OK, try this. A CUSTOMER puts FOOD ON YOUR PLATE, CLOTHES ON YOUR BACK, A ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD and A CAR ON YOUR DRIVE. Therefore, the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT. This is the first principle of business. In addition, a happy customer might tell ten people about their experience of the service provider, a disgruntled customer will tell one hundred, and that was in the days prior to the internet.

Mr Delane may be a highly skilled MA, but, this and the abilities of his school have as yet to be proven in open contest. Yes I am aware of what you said about ego. You might have also talked about Id, superego and any number of other perceptual / motivational theories. I am more than happy to discuss them with you if you wish. Would you like to look at the works of Elton Mayo, Frederick Hertzburg, McGregors veiws on theory X / theory Y, or the work of Professor Mary Parker Follet and the Hawthorn experiments?

However the FACT remains none of any of the B.A.M.A.'s taught abilities has yet to be proved in open competition. Any service provider or manufacturer in business has to prove their product or service to the satisfaction of that industry type's governing body. Ie it has to conform to at 'least a minimum standard'. Has this been done in respect of any of the recognised governing bodies of MA in the UK. Answer, NO. What has happened is that B.A.M.A. has set up their own governing body, this is highly suspect. Either B.A.M.A. are frightened of the prospect of being examined by the governing bodies and being found to be lacking, or, consider themselves to be so superior to other forms of MA, that the governing bodies would not understand B.A.M.A.'s form type. (The latter being very arrogant).

These are my observations, but, you have to admit, this seems more like a religious sect than a MA school, and like all religeoious sect's the end objective is not the benefit of the congregation or school members, but the financial wellbeing of the proprietor. Fanciful and obscure sects are dangerous not only to the people who participate in them, but also to society in general. You have only to look at the instances of Jim Jones and the Waco situations Stateside to observe that.

If I were to be in your shoes What's in a Name, I would be very wary, and, very careful if you intend to continue in this unproven Coven. Some advice. LEAVE, DO IT NOW, before you are damaged beyond repair.

Best wishes.

Midnightcrawler.

about competitions: if for nothing else, competing improves your skill as the practitioner of any sport (or if you consider MA an art) in a way that just doing exercises and games do not. as in, doing katas and sparring are probably excellent, but competing makes you try much harder. people, while in competition, are generally more aggressive (not that it's a bad thing at all, just the truth), and through it often they improve a lot. for example, for tennis (a sport that I'm much more familiar with than MA), during practices I push myself, sure. but only to about 75%, sometimes only about 50% (*a bit embarassed* well, that's the truth...). during competitions I push myself 125%. sometimes I hit balls that I was sure I wouldn't be able to reach, succeed in shots that I had thought was impossible. then I can go about in my later days trying to get good enough all the time to come to expect doing that kind off stuff, even if I'm only going about 50%. if you don't compete, you don't really know how good you can be. at least, that's my viewpoint on that matter. mind you, it's not that not competing is wrong. it's just that if I didn't compete at least once in a while, I feel that I was missing out on something.

as for the rest of this thread (string?), some interesting things. a lot of hostility though... something I've observed: most people who defend BAMA cite their good MA teaching as support, whilst people who do not defend BAMA cite their dishonesty as support. so for those who defend BAMA (you know who you are... and so do we, come to think of it =P ), can anybody address their (apparent) dishonesty? for those who do not support BAMA (same goes for you), can you seriously slough off their (apparent) excellent MA teaching so easily? also, for a MA school/teaching/practice to be good, does it have to be honest? does it have to teach excellently? because I personally prefer to deal with honest organizations/establishments in my lifetime (therefore my aversion to politics as a career choice). but then on the other hand, even if the organization/establishment is completely honest, but the stuff they do/teach isn't worth anything, then it's a waste of my time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the people who are defending BAMA and the people who are not are not are actually talking about completely different things altogether, therefore any argument between the two (I'm sensing some hostility, anybody else?) will probably be moot.

as for those who are actively bashing BAMA, I agree with you in principle that the facts seem to support your side of the argument, but some of the things that people have been saying have simply been unsubstantiated and rather strong-emotioned. for example, this guy... the head of BAMA (name slipped for a moment, and this forum doesn't let you see previous posts in the same window as you're replying and I'm too lazy to go open a whole other window to check the name out) may be getting a great deal of money off people, which he shouldn't be getting, and while many (ex-BAMA) people may feel extremely angry at that, which I understand, there is no need to call him names, nor is it fair. there seems to be a great deal of hostility against BAMA on this site, and though they may not be honest or whatever, that's no excuse to badmouth them? I agree with those supporting BAMA on this thread that it's hard to speak out, for risk of getting guillotined. ow.

anyway, hope this post will generate some more hostility...! c'mon... I need some new laughs :P

Mona

PS and no, you can't get much personal info on me from my profile, 'cuz it's the internet, and who knows? *paranoid* but if you want my e-mail, I can give it to you.

I've been following this thread with great interest like a lot of people.I only got onto to it because it had UK in the title!I think the members of B.A.M.A have no real cause to feel aggrieved at what they feel is fellow martial artists poking their noses in! These days public interest in the martial arts, thanks to films and television, is high. Sadly their knowledge is not. To the general public anything done by Chinese is Kung Fu, anything standup will be karate and anything with throws or on the floor is judo therefore what one group of martial artists does is reflected on all of us. Look at the public perception of police officers, lawyers, estate agents and dentists to name a few! The media is quick to pick up a story on a bad experience with a group but they have no interest in all the good experiences people have, they aren't 'commercial'. If a group of martial artists appear to be disreputable or ripping people off we certainly have the right to question!
I've read a lot of threads on most of the Fighting Arts forums and have gained a lot of good advice, a fair few laughs and found a lot of fellow feeling.I think the vast majority of the people who post here are people who love their art/sport and are keen to share their styles and experiences honestly and without ripping people off, I think that gives them the right to question the members of the B.A.M.A. There are plenty of honest arguments too on the forums so I don't think anyone need be afraid to disagree.I've never had the pleasure of meeting Bossman but know of him. I have read and enjoyed his writing and if he has concerns I think we all should.I'm lucky I have found a very good club and instructor (£3 per hour + £15 a year insurance!) but when I started out doing martial arts I was ripped off by my first association, I would have welcomed advice on choosing a club then.If, as clubs and associations we want to expand whether for profit or not we do have to be able to offer honest training and value for money.If B.A.M.A are able to do this why won't they answer honest questions? Sadly if they are not, we are all liable to be tarred with the same brush.

whats in a name Do you think its right to respect someone who has lied to you ?

Also you talk about Honour, is Lying honourable ? it undermines everything you have said.

I am guessing you are still not a black belt... your views will change as you learn more about the Bullsh!t

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midnightcrawler:
The way, is not a 'way of life' it's what you do in the dojo in your spare time. You, or anyone else cannot live that 'way of life'in modern society. Why? Because it is unrealistic in modern society,
[/QUOTE]

You are SO WRONG!! Going to work does not mean you cannot follow 'The way'.

Every second of the day you have choices - we all have to earn money. But you can choose to do a good job, to not get involved in office politics, to help those around you. To find the joy in a job - even a shite one!

[QUOTE]
When you bring up the subject of honour. This is something your parents should have taught you whilst you were still an infant or at least a young child, honour being the knowledge between right and wrong and electing to do the right thing, or taking a 'decent stance through life, (not a difficult choice) and by going to an outside organisation after your formative years, you are by implication being highly critical of your own parents.
[/QUOTE]

Highly critical of your own parents?!! What's wrong with that? Are your parents perfect? I have a friend who used to lock his son in a room each night to do his homework... What did that teach him??

You cannot choose your parents.

Parents DO NOT teach their children honour - honour is not choosing between right and wrong.

'doing the right thing' is life is NOT easy - how can you say such a thing??

[QUOTE]
If I were to be in your shoes What's in a Name, I would be very wary, and, very careful if you intend to continue in this unproven Coven. Some advice. LEAVE, DO IT NOW, before you are damaged beyond repair.
[/QUOTE]

Ridiculous. Damaged beyong repair!!? You are not basing your 'advice' on experience but on hearsay...

You and I live in very different worlds.

I am living life... I am not a customer of God.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhiteMask:
I am living life... I am not a customer of God.[/QUOTE]

What a provocative post. I recognise everything you have said. All the concepts are regurgitated from Bushido instructors and PD. Which is of course not a bad thing, if it was from an inspired/enlightened source. Which is, of course, down to opinion.

I recognise the critisism of parents. I heard the phrase "our parents are not perfect. But Bushido is the perfect family." Basically it is very variable how parents bring their kids up. And perhaps the members of Bushido are overrepresented by people with bad upbringing, if this kind of attitiude prevails. But i know that a family can only flourish in a nurturing, loving, protective environment. I certainly didn't feel that is what Bushido was about. And at times i felt it was contrary to it.

Why is there also this attitude that the way of Bushido is perfect? Surely it was a system which was designed for the feudal times - probably a lot of it was about social control. And caste systems (not good)... you can find good in anything. But don't assume that just because you've found some good in Bushido, that it is the alternative to the corrupt world around us. I agree that secular society has huge pitfalls and morality is going down the spout. But Bushido isn't the antidote. It's just another system of control.

Pete Delane was asked if Bushido is so good then what about the atrocities that went on in WWII? I'm sure this has been debated many times, but his reply was "The winds of the east chill only the minds of the west". Make of that what you will.

If you were being truly zennish(?) you would wake up and see BAMA for what it is. That doesn't mean you have to leave and slate the organisation. I was continuing for over a year as a "non-fanatic" because i no longer bought into the philosophy drivel. It very much teaches people to think in a certain way, and reproduce opinions, this message board testifys to that. Does it really teach you to be open minded? I used it to learn martial arts. And they were happy to take my money. But i had enough of submitting to Pete Delane's ideals. He is bitter about many things, and i'm sure that's because of his past.

This forum left a bitter taste in my mouth, and i left because i was open to the fact it was corrupt. If you're so dedicated and fanatical, having blind faith in the BAMA (which i definately used to have) then it certainly clouds your judgement.

Don't quite understand what you mean by not a "customer of God". Are you a customer of Pete Delane instead? That is an interesting alternative...

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-27-2005).]

Well said Adonai.

I have never met the man in question, but, a lot of people on this thread have, and have expressed their opinions here. He seems like an oldish guy with an out of date haircut, living in the past, with an arrogant (certainly not humble) attitude, who surrounds himself with sycophants and treats his CUSTOMERS in a manner which is likely to engender the dowfall of his organisation.

Perhaps this type of school appeals initially to those of low inteligence, poor social standing and as been already said, the disenfranchised of society. However, once the truth is uncovered they also want no part.

How can any reputable business enterprise be formed in an hour in back street pub, in a (and I quote my friend who knows the area well) part of the town in question which is not particularly salubrious. I cleaned that up for the benefit of the over sensitive members of B.A.M.A. What was actually said was; 6 miles up the rectum of the world.

All the best.

The posts by midnightcrawler are now beginning to upset me. He, or she, seems full of anger and aggression and is turning the thread into nothing more than a forum for name calling. I find his posts most childish. The language used is Troll-like in its application. Surely, if you are unable to contribute in an adult manner you shouldn’t post. This forum is visited by a wide range of users, some are children. Maybe you should remember that the next time you post. We all have a responsibility to ensure this forum is a tool for healthy discussion.

Midnightcrawler has graduated from verbally abusing PD to now abusing the members of BAMA referring to them as of low intelligence and poor social standing.

The language and aggression demonstrated by midnightcrawler is totally unnecessary and purely spiteful. Surely, this is not what this forum should be promoting.

Dale

[This message has been edited by DaleWinton (edited 01-27-2005).]

although i do not quite agree with MC's use of vernacular, i do agree with where he is going with it.

i think that dale winton is doing nothing more then defending PD and BAMA from what he deems unworthy commnents. i find it amusing to read DW's post reference this forum and what it is for and who reads it....especially since he pretty much has done nothing to support this forum (1 post?). i am sure he's been lurking around, but, he has made no other posts here and therefore i feel his comments reference what this forum is for, its readership and etc are unwarranted.
Kel

O.k it seems that there is a lot to understand or be understood and I doubt that we all will agree for our paths are many and diverse,however there are some questions put to me that I feel compeled to answer.

1. Liquidthoughtz: I am not trying to compete here I only wish to help others understand a single sane man's point of view,it may differ from the majority of people on this forum but I feel many have not represented the heart of B.A.M.A and I only wish to be diplomatic not competitive.
I know many question that which seems secular but perhaps everything in the world of martial arts doesn't have to follow the same line,does that really make it wrong are are we afraid to venture into that which does not follow the masses approved stamp and who is to say any man is right or wrong,are we all above credibility,do you all judge life in so narrow a view that if it isn't agreed within popular opinion then it must be wrong?

2. Midnightcrawler: I am not rich,nor do I run off to play samurai.As for a way of life my time in B.A.M.A has certainly changed my view on life,not that I believe we are all living a lie and must adhere to the way but that I know step back and think more and will believe in myself more,I have moved on to live a life that is to follow the way,as much as possible in a modern way mixed with the old way,you see everything is changing including the way,it moves with the times or it break or become stagnant,it is not a case of living as a samurai or pretending to be Japanese,I am an Englishman who follows a way of life that appreciates beauty and the sanctity of life in this modern world.
My parents were brilliant;my father taught me about respect and a sense of facing the truth even when I didn't want to,he taught me honour and decency and I am still proud of the unwavering strength he shows to this very day;my mother taught me great compassion and love,to be respectful of the fairer sex (ladies),she nurtured my feelings and gave me the freedom to express my innermost fears and joys of life;on the whole they gave me a balanced upbringing(so to all those who thought I was unhinged I'm sorry to have to disappoint you but I didn't need Bushido to offer me security I wanted Bushido to show me further ways in which to find balance and to feed my artistic flair).
You speak of customer care and I tell you I have no complaints,I got exactly what I wanted:a MA that had grit and dermination yet also had passion and a system of excellent teaching and above all had the balls to teach it's students about love not macho "punch,kick were 'ard as nails" crap.
(do not misconstrue this as meaning that I needed somewhere to teach me love,I just desired to find others that believed in the true way of Bushido).
You want proof to validate the school yet you fail to understand that these competitions offer only fame and glory,to compete in the local "bashing" competition is entirely irrelevant to how good your school is,it merely proves the childish attitudes that many schools have to MA,the only you proof you seek is a concept of what you believe the school to represent,that being it,s combat skills alone;to compete is to throw away that which we believe in "the way"-DO;not JUTSU "artform or skill"if you cannot understand this idea then I am wasting my time.
Religous sect is a hysterical reaction to the stories told in this thread,never have I felt manipulated or under control from the words of my school,I do not hold all that is said as gospel and we are encouraged to be free of thought and mind and we are not engineered on a hardcore belief system,trust me on this I am certainly not going to allow anyone to "mind-set" me.

Brainwaher:I you read earlier on this page (9) you will see that I am indeed a Sensei (blackbelt) and I still don't have ant problems with the school in any of the previously mentioned posts (page 1 - 9).

As for lies and truths there is no-one here who can give me truth on past history that would make me feel that I am concerned.I have checked the sites pertaining to certain trains of thought in the forum and I still do not adhere to the worried mass who bay and bark like angry wolves.There are many who fail to understand the way I feel and it seems I could be repeating myself for a long time:in the words of my Sensei I shall "let go of the need to defend" for in the need to defend I am merely wasting all our energy on this unagreeable point,so unless someone can offer me any of kind of understanding on anything I have said I will fade into the distance.....do not judge all that you hear on this site from those that would condemn B.A.M.A for it is in this judgement that you become that which you have condemned......

Kell,

Your logic makes no sense. How on earth can you extrapolate my criticism of Midnightcrawler’s language to defending PD or BAMA? What a strange conclusion to derive. But then I note you mentioned posting on this thread some time ago. Having read that post (on page 5) I see you have a habit of jumping to wild conclusions. From that post it’s clear you hold contempt for anyone trying to engage in a discussion about BAMA that happens to differ in point of view.

Regarding your comments about the forum, I’m sorry to have to tell you, but it’s a free access forum! I’m sorry hunterkell, but I have just as much right to post here as you do. You see, it’s for EVERYBODY.

It’s a shame my comments about the use of language by Midnightcrawler have been grossly misinterpreted by hunterkell.

This is all going a little off topic, before you turn this into a flame war..... this thread was originally a good debate and gave useful information, It would be a shame to have the thread locked or deleted by the mods after petty arguements.

DW, i find the fact that u jumped to the conclusion that i feel like u do not have a right to post at this forum a typical literary tool to make ur rather weak position appear stroger then it really is.

i said ur comments re MC were unwarranted.
YOU were the one that stated MC should not be posting, because YOU did not like what he posted.

DW, are u affiliated with PD or BAMA? you see, every so often some of BAMA's members will arrive make one post or two (hint, hint) and then off they go....never to be seen or heard from again.

i just find it suspicious that having never made a post u jump over MC reference his post content, which happens to be anti BAMA...having never made any other posts reference objectionable content or foul language (and there are plenty that warrant comment other then MC's post), u portray urself making those comments in a "good for all vein"....u can gainsay all u want to about what i am implying, but, if i (and others), don't see u posting regularly on the BB, then i submit that u r another BAMA student rushing to the aid of PD and BAMA...

i respect whatsinaname because he admits who he is and what his affiliation is...he is not hiding behind anything.

if u feel the need (and im sure u will), DW, u can have the last reply and we will end this as u have ur opinion and i have mine.
Kel

The abuse ends here.

Keep on topic or be deleted.

JohnL

The abuse ends here.

Keep on topic or be deleted.

JohnL

Whats in a name.

Hello I'm back again. A question (what another?) Did anyone out there actually understand what the hell W.I.A.N. was on about? I'm reasonably well educated (MBA) but that last post by W.I.A.N. may as well have been written in cyrillic, and no I do not speak Russian. Apart from the man's obvious devotion to his parents, his last couple of posts have made no sense at all.

Is it me? Have I missed something? What is this mystical "The Way"? Does he mean being a decent human being? If so then most everybody I have the privilage of knowing has "The Way" so it is not something unique to B.A.M.A. and how in the name of all things sensible can he be 'taught' to love? You either do, or, you do not. It isn't something which can be taught, it is an emotional feeling which your subconcious mind evokes from external stimuli, such as a pretty girls appearance. (Or handsome Guy). Sorry girls.

Yet more evidence if any is needed that the organisation under discussion, appears to mess with peoples mental states and thought processes. I have to conclude from all this, that, they are damn dangerous people, and should be investigated in depth by the appropriate bodies.

So there we have it. A business unit constituted in an hour in a pub in the less than reputable back streets of Gloucester, on the back of allegations of someone making a pass at another guy's wife, which teaches no known conventional form of MA, but a mish mash of bits of others, and then proports to be able to 'teach' love.

God help us.

Hi Midnightcrawler,sorry if my last two posts have not been very clear,I do not wish to misrepresent my school so I must try to clarify a couple of points.
On the subject of love;this all depends on your view here but I am trying to be understanding of everybodies view so humour me by trying to understand mine,
1. The school of MA I train with has never proported to "teach love",these are my own words and my own ideas not B.A.M.A's so please let everybody understand that.
Also on love,it is my belief that a person can be taught the concept of love,usually by your parent/gaurdian or in questions throughtout life ( never feel you have learnt all there is to know on any subject,no-body is omnipotent )we all feel emotions automatically but a guiding hand can steer us toward appreciating the beauty of the loving emotions and in that sense can be seen as "teaching".

I appreciate that "harping on" about the way can be a little tedious so I'll try not to bore you too much on that one however I am only trying to point out that the school of Bushido ( in my opinion not their words ) deals with much more than just throwing a punch or delivering a kick..there is much more that goes on within the human spirit/mind than robotic programing of a particular style.I feel slighty offended that a man of your intelligence and wisdom can quite off-handedly discredit my words as "being a mess of a mental state" when in all fairness I have dared to offer a case which has delved deeper than just discussing the "quality of teaching" that many have mentioned and I have not just mysteriously vanished nor have been "closed off" to discussing this topic.I feel that perhaps you are being slighty rude in such off hand remarks for surely you might be able to accept that I may well have learnt to live a better way of life through following the B.A.M.A
You see it's easy to read all the thread on B.A.M.A and then decide to pick up on the negative points made without making comment on the positive,as I've said before many people are "out for blood" on the subject of B.A.M.A and with only this source of information as their guide ( the forum ) then they make the easier choice,that being to agree with pratically every negative that they have read so that by the time I come along I am already judged.So am I to be drowned or burnt because quite clearly this forum has become as insular a coven of cultish feverism as you would all believe the school to be ( which B.A.M.A is not I'd like to add ).
There are many disgruntled students who have helped to feed the fire of injustice but truly how can you,a man of intelligence automatically decide that their stories point to the whole truth,I have been brought up to have an open mind and I try more than ever in my life (yes also since B.A.M.A)to be open minded.Can everyone be so bigoted that they will simply discredit my words as madness,is this really the only possible thought available about B.A.M.A,can no-one appreciate that I may not be brainwashed and that I truly enjoy the depth of teaching and zenish applications within my school,must I continuley defend my own core.
I can see your point of view and how if I where in your situation I would be wary of what I did not understand and also at that which did not fall into my belief system of what I percieved to be the "correct" formula of a MA,and taking into account that there have been other organisations that feed on people's insecurities etc... I am wary of many other schools out there for I have trained in Shotokan,Wada-ryu,Wing-chun,Ju-jutsu,Tae-kwon-do,Myu Thai,Tai-chi,Shaolin gung fu and Judo,(throughout my life from childhood onwards....)and I have had many bad experiences of poor training,physcho attitudes amongst students,macho boasting,being asked to do crazy kicks that a novice should not do (running jumping spinning kicks;twisted my my ankle but was laughed at by instructor and told to continue),lacklustre approach to lessons,confusing sparring sessions that had a feeling of chaos as the whole class "mingled" about trying not to collide as we sought space to combat and not truly learning much but how dis-organised these schools were.Their teaching methods were a pile of rubbish and the only thing they taught me was how not to do MA,so I hope you will appreciate that my experiences outside of B.A.M.A have done little to make me feel that any school you can vouch for will inspire confidence in me.
It's all down to perspective and I can't express enough that my my mind is my mind,that I am enjoying this school above all the other styles I have trained in,please try to be a little more broad in your thoughts for all it proves to me is that(as throughout time)mankind will simply "shoot first and ask questions later".Do not label me as you do not even know me and quite possibly you (or others on this site) could be the guy who I had a friendly chat with the other day,or tommorow and ironically all this "banter" will amount to nothing more than waste and the only reason I sit here wasting my time is (against my better judgement) to try and satisfy my desire to bridge the gap that this forum has gulfed on the subject of B.A.M.A
Try not to be too harsh for the world is bitter enough,littered with man's self importance and self righteousness on all he deem's under his thrall......

P.S. hope you understand this essay of mine it rants a bit I know but I am passionate about my school.....

P.P.S. whatever you do try not to refer to me in your reply (if you do reply)as a sichopant of the school for that would be a typically boring reply and tediously obvious decision to make in the light of the whole "this guy's been brainwashed",be original if you can,I really think you can come up with more than the "he's a mental etc etc etc etc......." and do not think that I wish animosity between us I merely wish for peace (do not turn that into a wacko quote).

.......Now where did I put that straight jacket..............

so now that this horse has been beaten into several rats, can it please be locked and deleted?

I thought that MA was supposed to teach not only self-defence, but also self-confidence, honour, integrity and respect (the very things that many previous posters talked about MA supposedly teaching). what happened to those (apparently) 'old-fashioned' values? does nobody else see the irony of this thread? it was started from the concern of a friend over a group that may have doubtful morals, and a good deal of posters bash this group (being BAMA and PD, for those of you who don't know) for that. and now people start going at each other... what happened to valuing morals?

earlier I thought that there was a lot of aggression here... I meant it as aggression towards BAMA, etc. but now... these last couple of posts in my opinion have totally outweighed the benefit of the earlier discussion about a valuable topic that have potentially helped a lot of people.

if there are sesame seeds to quibble over, please do it somewhere else (or better yet, don't do it at all); some people are here to learn about BAMA and PD and possibly stop being scammed, I don't think most people follow this thread for the entertainment of reading how well certain posters can insult each other.

Mona


administrators, moderators, please don't tell me that this is the type of attitude you want on this forum. please don't tell me that this kind of stuff is going on in the other threads as well...

Mona.

This is in fact an attempt to get to the truth about this organisation and it's background and teaching meathods, that this particular discussion is taking place. If as many persons suspect B.A.M.A. are using mind bending techniques to obtain and maintain their student numbers, then I think you would agree, that this issue is far too important to just bury.

You have obviously looked at this thread in some depth. Could you do something for me please? Take another look and see if you can find any evidence of a straightforward explanation as to why there are so many anti's posted here? We are attempting ( not just myself and W.I.A.N.) to debate the pro's and cons of the issue, in an attempt to arrive at the truth, or at least something near to it. The reason for this is that there would seem to have been so many lie's, half truths and strange mind bending happenings going on in B.A.M.A. over the years it is proving difficult and exasperating to get there.

I personally know a few ex-members of this setup, and they are too scared to say anything; (yes thats right 'scared') either derogatory or supportive of the organisation, when questioned about it, they just stay silent, but have a strange look come over themselves, could be panic (you know what I mean). Now why do you think that should be? Why should any person or in this instance persons who have left an organisation be scared of speaking out? Have they been threatend or got at? I do not know, but I'm damned sure I'm going to find out.

Yes, it reaches that level of importance. At least to me.

Best regards.

MC.

I thought I posted a reply yesterday morning (GMT) which does not appear to have popped up in the system yet, however, I will attempt to post a shorter (much sorter) piece.

Can anyone - high grade - in BAMA tell us about PD's 'throne'

I await with interest

Hi All,
Just my experience.

As the training got more demanding, physically, socially and mentally, it was clear that things were being suggested to us that led students/instructors to open our minds but at the same time to restrict our social lives.

To start seperating from our society. What started as a sub-culture, quickly turned into a secular system of devotees and fanatics that followed the "modern zen" of BAMA.

PD did indeed build a throne and install a gong, both on a raised platform. Banging the gong when he wanted us to stop. He was the "shogun" and we his "daimyo".

When i left I was told never to make contact with those friends that I left behind in BAMA. I was liked by my peers when I was there, as soon as I left I heard from a very trusted source, that they all started to "slag me off". What wise and open minded people!

For those of you who have had a bad experience with the BAMA.

The people at the top of the martial arts community in the UK are aware of its goings on. A lot of them new about it before I met them. The behaviour there is starting to be recognised as unacceptable, which is why the grades and standards of their students of "zen" and martial arts are not recognised outside of there school.

whats in a name?

You are just preaching P.D Words throughout your posts.

I can see you are all ZENNED UP..

I to have been in your position of " Im a spiritual master and live by PD's way, I love everything and everyone" Its quite easy to convince yourself that you are THE WAY. especially with the techniques employed by PD and the Gang. Much of the philosophy You have learnt has come from other material PD has learnt himself. I have heard him tell at least 3 stories I have heard elsewhere. If you have a look around you will find there are many spiritual speakers that offer the same information as PD, and this information you don’t have to pay X amount of money to attain. My suggestion to you is to have a look for more spiritual information from other sources and recognize that PD's way is not the only way ... nor is it original.

I would agree that he is an accomplished martial artist.

Now I ask you this.

DO YOU THINK ITS RIGHT THAT HE HAS LIED ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE SCHOOL ?

DO YOU THINK ITS RIGHT THAT A BOOK OF A4 PAPER IS WORTH £60

DO YOU THINK HIS 2 HR ZEN LECTURES ARE WORTH £60 ?

I have been in BAMA for around 6 years and have trusted what I have learnt. That trust is now being broken.

Just remember “whats in a name?” I to have been Zenned up and continue to be so I know where you are coming from.

At the moment you are kidding yourself mentally.

Take it EZ

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midnightcrawler:
I personally know a few ex-members of this setup, and they are too scared to say anything; (yes thats right 'scared') either derogatory or supportive of the organisation, when questioned about it, they just stay silent, but have a strange look come over themselves, could be panic (you know what I mean). Now why do you think that should be? Why should any person or in this instance persons who have left an organisation be scared of speaking out? Have they been threatend or got at? I do not know, but I'm damned sure I'm going to find out.
[/QUOTE]

That's absolute rubbish. If you leave then why should you be scared to post. Why would BAMA bother to threaten you? The BAMA have quite enough members - it's not desperate for more. If you look you won't find many adverts or posters. It's all low key - precisely because they don't care about gaining ever increasing members... (Unlike other styles).

This is turning into a ridiculous paranoid witch hunt.

I write: "I enjoyed my time with BAMA."
You write: "You're scared to tell the truth."

I write: "No, I 'm not, I learnt a lot."
You write: "You were financially ripped off"

I write: "No I wasn't. I was taught to love life"
You write: "You were brain washed."

*sigh*

ok

lets keep this forum on track.

White Mask;
You have your own opinions on how you felt about training in the BAMA.
That is not what is being asked of you!

Tell us the truth about BAMA, not your opinions. You seem to be avoiding questions, but "picking" up on other points.
Please just answer some of the questions.

Are you still training there?
Do you remember a throne and gong?
There are some other questions to be answered from other people, you are here in a position to answer them.

Other people involved in this discussion;
Keep it clean. You might feel hurt and cheated, but don't get personal and attack the way people look.
If everyone who posts here is honest and reads with understanding and empathy, we can get to the bottom of all of this.

I hope this thread stays clean because its too interesting to be locked down.

Midnightcrawler, i think you should calm down and be less critical, especially since you have not been a member of BAMA yourself. There are plenty of posters here who can give that side of the story, ex-BAMAers, but as for the rest of interested readers you're in a better position to be objective, rather than all out critical! However, i now understand from your last post why you have been quite passionate about the whole thing; having friends who are 'scared'. This is precisely what bothers me the most about BAMA. And i know from what i've heard that these fears may not be unfounded.

I think it may be useful to find out what happened to others who have broken away from BAMA and tried to retain a bit of the money making machine by setting up their own schools(Which is actually exactly what PD did.) ? eg Budo Academy. I have heard stories and i hope they are chinese whispers, but if they're not.... well then we really should be worried. I wouldn't bother posting them because they're not 1st or even 2nd hand stories. And it always is best to hear from those closer to the situation.

What's in a name: your username is actually quite telling. whereas it is honourable that you have stayed on the discussion and stood for what you have believed in, you share all the attributes of other BAMA posters: Not disclosing any information that could reveal your identity to BAMA. Why is this? I am exactly the same i must confess, even though i have left. But i feel it is because i don't know enough about what goes on in the upper echalons of the Delane Academy, and if i believe what i've heard then it's best to remain anonymous. But why this shroud of secrecy from you, since you are fully supporting Bushido and have nothing to fear? I apologise if i am completely wrong in this assumption, and am sure you will answer accordingly.

I agree it has become a bit intense on this thread. I think that only reflects the strong effect BAMA has had on ex students. When i left, i realised the strong hold the school had on me, and began to objectively look at the ridiculous influence it had on my attitudes. Unquestioned faith to BAMA and all the instructors, serious critical outlooks on any other martial art style of school of thought, a dislike for religion. All these attitudes were propogated by the BAMA system. On current students, like WIAN, i see all the cliches of Bushido, and can understand his posts completely. The reason i think Midnightcrawler didn't understand them is because he hasn't listened to the Bushido Zen philosophy for years on end, and been caught up in that way of thinking. Since leaving i have not compromised my mind to the rest of the world, but discovered how to be truly human, and feel greatly fulfilled for it. Current BAMAers will have the tendancy to think that i dropped out coz i couldn't hack it and are 'back in the matrix'. This is not so.
(NB - midnight crawler was asking about THE WAY - its basically a path in life that will lead to fulfillment, but which is implied not available elsewhere. I knew a buddhist whose beliefs were belittled)

The Zen philosophy is not as advanced as students think. I found it very basic as i already had a very enriched moral, religious and philosophical backround, and thought about things a lot already. The attitude that there's all these hidden secrets actually undermines what zen should really be about in my opinion.

So perhaps if we conclude that Bushido is not the only way (all the critisisms WIAN mentioned about other MA schools i have blantantly come across in Bushido on many occasions), but honourable in its intentions and methods, then we should all chill (BAMA students lose that arrogance which i freely admit BAMA once breeded in me).

But if we have suspicions that the teaching style of BAMA is dangerous and dishonest, then we should definately persist and try and get to the bottom of it.

I just find current students aren't really that useful in discovering this 'truth' because they gloss over any hugely apparent inadequacies in the school. especially the lies. There is no need for lies; Bruce Lee set up his own system and never made up lies about it, becoming hugely successful in his own right (but of course PD is better than him)

I value current students opinions, but would be especialy interested to know how they feel about discoveries made into it's origins, and how they justify them. Also i'd be very interested to hear more about Bushido's official word on it all.

Best wishes to all and i hope whatever you do, you are happy, liberated, and open to the true power behind life.

Just wrapping up the topic of parents, here's a short dialogue between Pete Delane and his father, Mr. McDougal:

MMcD: "Son, i have something to tell you. I went to the doctors about this tremor i've got. He's diagnosed me with Parkinson's Disease. That's why my hand has been shaking. What am i gonna do?"

PD: "Don't waste it, PUT YA DCIK IN IT!!!!

(That's Zen that is!)"

I hope that didn't offend anyone but i'm just quoting one of the wise master's storys. And besides, if that is an example of Zen, which is what he claims, then i'm sure it will be welcome on these message boards as an affiliate way of thinking to martial arts.

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 01-28-2005).]

I can resist no longer - here's my two-penneth!
As an ex-member of BAMA, I have to say that the comments made by Adonai:
" I am exactly the same i must confess, even though i have left. But i feel it is because i don't know enough about what goes on in the upper echalons of the Delane Academy, and if i believe what i've heard then it's best to remain anonymous." are absolutely spot-on. I realised pretty early on that BAMA wasn't for me. The training was excellent, and my sensei was, I believe, a great exponent of MA's and a great teacher - but the atmosphere in the school, the pressure to attend every function and every seminar, the endless hand-over-fist payments for these - it all started alarm bells ringing in my head. Then out came "Drayu's Ladder", a proclaimed way for 'any student' to learn secret material, providing they are willing to fork out hundreds of pounds.
The 'Modern Zen' stuff never washed with me - I freely admit that I'm far too sceptical and cynical to buy into that kind of thing from anybody, let alone a bunch of people who I don't fully trust.
Anyway, the pressure I felt I was under to attend and to pay and to 'belong' eventually got too much to bear, and I left.
I could go on about BAMA and how I feel about it for hours, but I'd only be repeating what's been posted here numerous times already. In summary:
The lessons were good, as was my sensei. But no matter how good he was, my niggling doubts about the hidden (not very well-hidden) agenda of the school as a whole - namely making money for PD - meant that I had to get out. You will all note that, like Adonai, I remain anonymous. My reasons for doing so are the same as Adonai's.

Stay happy.

For my part, I do not intend to delete or lock this thread.

I would request therefore that people keep on topic and refrain from psyco-analyzing each other. Please make your posts clear and to the point.

Remember, the original post was to find out what this group is doing and why did their training costs appear so high.

Nothing that has been said over this past period that has informed me that the style taught has the historical background it has put forward as having.

I believe the costs associated with the group to be overpriced and people are being scammed.

I still find it wierd that Pete Delane and the others are known as Shugosan, etc.

Interestingly enough I find it perfectly reasonable that a karate group may have been formed in an hour in a pub. Groups are quite often formed on that basis, after all, it's just a few guys getting together to discuss doing a common interest and why not have a drink.

I still have received no replies to the e-mails I sent to all the BAMA instructors, nor as far as I am aware have any of them posted on this thread after the initial comments by James Seaward.

JohnL

Just realised why my lengthy posting didn't get through - wrong password.

One specific point to raise - again whitemask, you talk about not needing students/to advertise.

Why is it then that I see BAMA posters in paper shops lampposts and more interestingly every greasy spoon/banjo wagon in Glos.

My appologies to Banjo's all over, who's occupation is an honourable one dating back nearly 1000 years with links to Cunfusiuos and Tutenkhamun. Those who have studied the Zen and way of the sloppy egg sarnie will indeed be expert at self defence.

Old Zen saying 'when bright sun of egg no longer shining, the yolk is on you'

Hello Kohigh,welcome to your first lesson in the school of Bushido.My name is Pete Delane,i founded this school 25yrs ago,as I and the school i initially studied and taught in 'outgrew' each other. I had an idea that to teach Karate in an atmosphere similar to that of feudal Japan would be more interesting than lining up in a cold school hall.I was fortunate enough that some of my students liked and respected me enough to share my vision- Bushido Academy was born.
Over the years my idea expanded to cover other Japanese arts such as sword and aikido, some of these teachings you will experience if you wish as you progress through the school.I believe we offer value for money, our instruction is always 1 on 1 so you get lots of nurturing and encouragement,and still works out cheaper than most personal training in gyms.If you, like me develop an interest in complimentary areas such as Zen philosophy and the history and ideals of feudal Japan, you may like to read Thomas Cleary's translation of the code of Bushido, and your Sensei will be happy to recommend a well respected Zen class in your area with whom you get a discounted session upon presenting your BAMA membership card. Good luck and enjoy your training.

Now if the intro tape was the above there would not be a need for this thread :-)

John L.

Thanks for your forbearance. Much appreciated. I also take on board your comments about your finding B.A.M.A. being founded in a pub in an hour as not being unusual.
If this was a club I would agree with you but, it is not a club, it is a business taking profitable payment from it's customers. I would have therefore, not unreasonably have expected it to have been founded in a far more professional manner. After all, this was an offshoot of an already successful business owned by John Alexander.

In getting to the truth of what you have highlighted, (and I agree with what you have
said) I feel it is necessary to be a little circuitous in our approach. For instance if an individual is seeking moral guidance it would appear sensible to go to an expert in
that subject. Such as a Pastor, Priest, Mullah, Ayatolla or Rabbi all religious leaders of their specific faiths. Not to go to a MA school leader. It makes no sense to do otherwise.

On a similar vein. Why have those who have left B.A.M.A. invariably been bad mouthed by the organisation; particularly when they have been highly regarded whilst they have been members? This has all the appearance of being 'Corporate Policy', and in my experience of the business world, this comes from the very top of an organisation. 'Policy' being set by those in overall charge of the organisation. Perhaps
they see it as being treacherous or treasonable, both of course overreactions, but nonetheless orchestrated. Why? Also, why would B.A.M.A. seek to 'ban' all contact
with current members? One can only leave it to the good sense of the reader to speculate an answer, but, this also seems highly suspicious in the intent to isolate one
from the other.

To train an animal is not that difficult, and humans are only another animal species.
Pavlov trained dogs to respond in a number of different ways in response to differing
stimuli. I therefore ask the question, are B.A.M.A. using the same type of classical
and operant conditioning followed with reinforcement in the mindsets of their
customers? For more information, any motivational theorists publication will do.

In respect of the above paragraph, I would like to ask the following questions.

What is the socio-economic make up of B.A.M.A's customers? What proportion of
A, B, C1 - C2, D & E groups are represented? Those which exhibit independent thought processes are (if what I have gathered is correct) unlikely to be welcome in B.A.M.A. A's B's & C1's are those in high positions either in public office or in private
enterprise and those in higher or middle management and higher supervisory roles
who are climbing the management ladder. Whilst those in the C2, D & E categories
are more likely (not a certainty, but likely), to be easily led, as that is what they tend to do in their working lives; follow others. It is apparent from these official classifications that those falling into the latter categories will by virtue of their employment status be least able to afford the financial costs involved in membership of the B.A.M.A. business.

Or to quote John L "I believe the costs associated with the group to be overpriced and people are being scammed". Thank you John.

So if you follow my argument, it would be interesting to obtain information on the
socio-economic profile of membership of B.A.M.A. Both in terms of the 'higher echelons' and the 'ordinary customer base'. Does anybody have some ideas how we can get hold of this information? Freedom of information act perhaps? Any volunteers?

_____________________________________________

Sciggsy, dear heart.

You have to be awarded first prize for the most humorous post today, and you would
seem to know more about this lot than anyone else alive. Do you agree with that which I have written above? If not, what can I do to improve it? Help would be appreciated, as I am approaching this from a purely business stance.

_____________________________________________

Whitemask.

Adonai wrote.

Pete Delane was asked if Bushido is so good then what about the atrocities that went
on in WWII? I'm sure this has been debated many times, but his reply was "The winds
of the east chill only the minds of the west". Make of that what you will.

You alluded to the subject of honour. Were you aware that during World War two, one of the Japanese forces little tricks was to skin allied prisoners of war (Americans,
AnZacs and us Brits) ALIVE. Why did they do this, in direct contravention of the
Geneva Convention? In order to make lampshades that is why, they made lampshades
from the parchment of human beings skin. What a brave and honourable act on the
part of the descendants of the Samurai !! Hope it makes you very proud to be to be
associated with an organisation which identifies so closely with them. Honour, my
foot. Savages certainly.

Enjoy your evening.

Whoa there nellie! I dont think that there is a country in the world who has not commited terrible acts in a war.Crusaders, conquistadores and any number of other warriors have failed the Daz doorstep challenge when held up to the light of history :-) This thread is about a current MA organisation. How the japanese government hijacked and twisted the premise of Bushido during WWII is not really an issue for such glib sweeping statements.Such inflamatory rhetoric is disrespectful to Japanese today who were not even born at the time of which you speak,some of whom undoubtedly are members of this site.

Yes I expect you are right, but, consult your local branch of the Burmha Star Association. There are still people alive today who suffer nightmares from what they suffered, and whittnessed.

why is speaking the truth about what the japanese govt did to pow's considered inflamatory rhetoric?

i don't think anyone here blames any oriental person on this site for such atrocities. further, the japanese people themselves were victim's of bushido propaganda. after wwII, the japanese vehemently rejected the bushido culture and what it stood for.
i think that is simply an unfortunate part of the history of japan, even as was stated, do all countries/peoples have an unfortunate period that is regrettable.

i think it could be used as an indicator of what can/has been done using bushido rhetoric to shape minds. it goes back to giving people a sense of specialness that they might be lacking, or, if that is too strong of a word, then simple comraderie.

Kel

Dont misunderstand me, i am not condoning atrocities, My Father and Grandfather were in WW1 and 2, I merely felt that to go off on this tangent would cloud the real issue of the thread, such events inspire strong opinion and rightly so, however their discussion is unlikely to reveal anything further about BAMA. If Mr Delanes fortune cookie sayings infer an ambivalance to such tragic and momentous events then that is yet another length added to the rope that may well hang his school, yet having noted this distasteful fact, to persue it will muddy the waters we are trying to peer into.

Thank you hunterkell.

You seem to understand the stance I am taking. By the way, what is your opinion of my 'business analysis' of the current situation regarding B.A.M.A. and its social-economic profile?

All the other 'asides' were ment only to amplify the historic basis for 'what I percieve' as being an entirly selfish attitude on the part of Bushido UK, and it's members. Ie, I'm right everybody else is wrong, I love everything and everybody, just as long as everybody agrees with me. No time for those who have practised other forms of MA, or religion, or beliefs as everthing else is rubbish. I belive that my demonstration has been proved correct.

However, the really important part was embodied in the socio-economic part of my text. Strange how until now others have forgotten to consider that element.

Best regards.

MC.

Hi everyone its interesting to see such a stir in the water.
Liquidthoughtz: answer to an earlier question (wednesday?)I have not learnt zen under another teacher only from a small variety of literature and conversations with a buddhist friend (altough I'm not religous).
did not answer earlier because wasn't too sure of your motives but feel more trusting of you now.
Question:what was being suggested that led to you feeling you had to restrict your social life?
I feel it's a shame that you were isolated since you left and that others "slagged" you off,perhaps they valued their standing in Bushido more than their integrity.I can guarantee that I value my integrity more,even though I am a member of B.A.M.A I feel that I have moulded their teaching to my own belief system wherein I will stand up for what is morally correct;I'll use the word kidi but on my terms not a preconcept.

Brainwasher: I may have been waffling a little about the way etc.(apologies to all who've had enough of it) but there is much that I have said that is my interpretation of lets say,"modern zen",or you could call it common sense and I just take the bits that are applicable to my life and moral base.What I'm trying to say is that I don't buy all the zen,I here others who reiterate zen comments much more readily than myself but I like to put the zen in more of a layman's term(so subsequently often just listen to peoples conversations and muse on what I feel is "for me").
I have always been led to believe that the zen (pod tapes)is merely an adaptation of zen which Master Chusan had learnt and had put it into his own format to suit a modern way of life(as everything is always changing not to adapt is to become defunct in the new ways etc.)so I always felt the zen had it's source back in time.
I agree that my school is not the only way by far,there are many avenues,I just tread this one,also I am aware that it is not 100% original to fuedal times Bushido as again I have been led to believe that it has had to adapt to a more modern way of existence.

I personally don't agree with lies as it goes against my kidi(I do like the term as it encompasses the overall concept so forgive me for using it but there are positives to this zen aB.A.M.A) and I am not sure why(if indeed)the lies were made.Does this trouble me? Well yes it does but I am a law unto myself so am not(nor have been)ready to sell my being into the heart of the school,but don't get me wrong I still support the school because it has evoked in me my sense of honour,you see if I were to stand alone that would be fine as long as I retained my sense of honour NOT any other man's.As for the possible deception,well let's just say that it does not trouble me for I am aware that it could exist and I will always look after my own.

The £60 price tag on the book is a little steep I must admit but I think that it cost this much to POSSIBLY deter those students who weren't as loyal and therefore would/may have mistreated the book (you see it wasn;t intended to be available to the general public because it was an internal book that pertained to the school and it's teachings only -well that is only my opinion and I am quite a private person so I can respect a man's wishes on that).

The zen lectures that you discuss are value for money in my eyes but not everyone here agrees with that,it is a matter of personal opinion.

Adonai:Why don't I disclose my identity when I am so supportive of the school,well there are 2 reasons for this;

1.I value my personal privacy and do not wish any hardcore followers (remember the school cannot be held responsible for those who feel that taking what they might have misconcieved as being loyalty unto themselves and then in some way ostracizing me on a personal vendetta or just plain "falling out" with me) to be cranky with me nor do I wish to have to justify my actions to anyone because I know my intent is truly honourable towards B.A.M.A (and I think some people might not understand my reasoning on entering this forum).

2.The school,as you know,takes a strong stance on the belief of trust and honour so I believe,depending on what I say certain instructors or higher might think that I have misrepresented the school(even though my intentions are honourable) and might think that I have done harm to discredit the school as there will always be criticism at methods that seem "in depth" and "passionate";for instance,I tried to reveal positive feelings earlier on in some of my posts but they were twisted to sound negative(not looking for argument here)yet these thoughts of mine were innocent and I felt a "fresh" approach was needed in this forum (not too sure if I was right to come
but I'm intrigued).

As for cliches of "bushido" as you put it, again I felt that I was using my own terminology but yes I have adapted it to involve some of my zenish teaching so I appreciate the noticeable areas that seem like cliches.I also was a bit angered at some of the thread and perhaps pushed my feelings too hard,all I wanted to do was portray that which sits in my heart about my belief system of honour and the way -That is to say my way(I still do very un-zenish things and enjoy aspects of my life that I possibly would not discuss within a zen lecture as I am aware of the pro's and con's of existence enough to know that "zen" for me is on my terms and that's that).

I do not believe that you "dropped out" as you put it,nor do I believe you couldn't hack it,everyone is free in my eyes to make their own choice and certainly should not be ridiculed for it,nor do I believe that you are back in the matrix for I know that to be free of "the martrix" one only need be free in their own mind and that can even be done in a prison cell (not talking from experience here).

I do not believe the zen to be ultra advanced I just believe it to be zen.As for hidden secrets I never was holding my breath,I just take life and my MA moment by
moment.

I hope I am not being perceived as arrogant as that is not my intention,I guess I have felt a little lonely on this site,fighting on my own against many adversaries which in turn has created a short temper but I'm more chilled now.

As for glossing over lies I refer to the point above,I appreciate the many stories that people have come forward with and realise it is fine to express these concerns.The alleged lies that have been commented on are interesting and in all this thread I am torn between the history that I know and the summarised history that CORD gave on page 10 of the thread (somewhere in the middle of these two points my head is floating in indecisiveness).
How do I justify these alleged lies,well I can only say at a guess that someone would have wanted to create a fresher approach to MA so they allegedly created these stories.
If that's the way it happened I think the overall idea is certainly noble but perhaps to cloud it is not.Maybe a truth is more believable if it is belived to be true.

Midnightcrawler: I never joined Bushido to seek moral guidance but I feel it is a welcome change to most approaches in life from various social gatherings.

I would not bad mouth those that leave Bushido,this is very indicative of certain individuals small mindedness and I don't feel that it represents the attitude of my experience in B.A.M.A nor have I been prompted to behave in such a manner.This may be down to some individuals who have taken it upon themselves to behave in that way perhaps feeling they have a right to be a bit self important,again only an opinion offered here representing the human condition when engaged in tightknit and hardcore group(perhaps feel let down etc by other individuals) but I do not feel this represents the overall of B.A.M.A after all people will always be quite simply just people.
As for the contact ban I have no idea as I've never heard of such an account.

Socio-economic make up:well I can only speak for myself as I do not wish to reveal others lives against there wish or without their consent.I think your asking me for my background of employment(bear with me as art and english were my only specialist subjects),well I am self employed,running a buisness but not "raking" it in.

I have no particular understanding of motivational theories but personally feel that all of my lessons have been a good example of a passionate and exciting teaching system that encourages self thought within the style (creativity of combat techniques) as well as a standard of teaching correct body mechanics and unwavering dedication to focus and intent upon the styles which I have been taught (all of them within the school),little is left to chance and all that we do is devised around theories in application of techniques and drive.The teaching methods are both absorbing and uplifting leaving me often with a feeling of desiring to continue to train,mainly in my belief because they are so fulfilling to my creative desires.

As for Bushido in the past being a form of control over masses I believe that many countries exerted their own forms of propoganda and still do,however my take on Bushido is simply trying to appreciate the finer qualities it has to offer,again taking what I desire to fulfill my goals in life and become a more "balanced" man.

Sorry one and all for such a huge post but I am certainly intrigued.......

You are intrigued? Good God we all are. Can you not be more concise in your replies?

Is verbose prose a statement of Bushido Corporate Strategy?

This must be another and entirly new and revolutionary Bushido technique of MA/Karate/Akido Te/Fist of the Bamboo Spear/Budo Te/Ken Kai Ryu (taught incorectly according to the weapons thread and substaciated here in an earlier post). What is this revolutionary strategy, 'boar the buggers to death'?

No wonder you are self employed, by the time you had finished making a statement in an employed situation the damn place would be closed for the night.

Sorry to flame, but if you look at what you have written, you must realise where I am coming from.

Enjoy your weekend.

[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-28-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midnightcrawler:

'what I percieve' as being an entirly selfish attitude on the part of Bushido UK, and it's members. Ie, I'm right everybody else is wrong, I love everything and everybody, just as long as everybody agrees with me. No time for those who have practised other forms of MA, or religion, or beliefs as everthing else is rubbish. I belive that my demonstration has been proved correct.

Just read this post and felt compelled to reply.For the record,however I may have been portrayed or seemed to have been anti-other MA's my comments were not intended to be bigoted or one sided.I have time for all people in all walks of live even if they have conflicting views.I do not wish anyone to think that I represent a closed off approach to this disscussion nor do I wish to appear as though I love everyone and everybody as long as they agree with me.To think that would be highly stupid of me and I will let it be known that all my previous comments are an intention to help anybody understand that there is a better side to B.A.M.A but in my defence to any derogatory comments made I was merely trying to validate that "bad stories" can come from all directions and not just within B.A.M.A.
I wish it it to be known this is not a personal attack against comments made by Midnightcrawler (the qoute above)but instead is an attempt to clear my own name and allow my validity as an honest and competent member of this forum.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midnightcrawler:

'what I percieve' as being an entirly selfish attitude on the part of Bushido UK, and it's members. Ie, I'm right everybody else is wrong, I love everything and everybody, just as long as everybody agrees with me. No time for those who have practised other forms of MA, or religion, or beliefs as everthing else is rubbish. I belive that my demonstration has been proved correct.

Just read this post and felt compelled to reply.For the record however I may have been portrayed or seemed to have been anti-other MA's my comments were not intended to be bigoted or one sided.I have time for all people in all walks of live even if they have conflicting views.I do not wish anyone to think that I represent a closed off approach to this disscussion nor do I wish to appear as though I love everyone and everybody as long as they agree with me.To think that would be highly stupid of me and I will let it be known that all my previous comments are an intention to help anybody understand that there is a better side to B.A.M.A but in my defence to any derogatory comments made I was merely trying to validate that "bad stories" can come from all directions and not just within B.A.M.A.
I wish it it to be known this is not a personal attack against comments made by Midnightcrawler (the qoute above)but instead is an attempt to clear my own name and allow my validity as an honest and competent member of this forum.

Facts.

I was threatened by PD and others a lot whilst in the school. I saw others intimidated and pushed out. A lot of the threatening is done by the possibility that you could be thrown back into the "matrix". The high grades that you put your trust into and respect "project intent" towards you a lot.

I was picked on and beaten during lessons more than others, my character was ripped apart by those i respected, not in private, but infront of an audience.

Pete has an american martial arts magazine cover with a photo on the front saying "worlds most dangerous man".
I bought some old magazines from a car boot sale around a year ago. One of the magazines had an advert in. It was for a "mock" magazine, you could pay to put your photo on the front! It was exactly the same.

Pete never said that it was a joke cover, but thats the point of suggestive influence eh?

Use that as a metaphor.





[This message has been edited by liquidthoughtz (edited 01-31-2005).]

Hey there WIAN, I have absolutely no doubt that you as an individual are as honest as the day is long and you are most competent at your job.

The problem we are all having here is the B.A.M.A. training and costing, and probably the morality which impinges upon the former two.

Quote from liquidthoughtz:

"The people at the top of the martial arts community in the UK are aware of its goings on. A lot of them new about it before I met them. The behaviour there is starting to be
recognised as unacceptable, which is why the grades and standards of their students of
"zen" and martial arts are not recognised outside of there school".

Now, are you going to try and tell us that those right at the very top of the UK MA community "do not understand us, and what we are trying to do"? If you do, then it's a one word reply;- BALLONEY. It would appear that Bushido (UK) is regarded as being universally untrustworthy.

If as I suspect, the socio-economic profile of membership of B.A.M.A. comprises those who are easily led and easily influenced, Eg C2's D's & E's, then it would be a case of "birds of a feather flock together", and they really are being to quote JohnL;I believe the costs associated with the group to be overpriced and people are being scammed. Put another way, they are being ripped off, and having their mind set messed with.

Brainwashing on a large scale is relatively easy if you can assemble a susceptible group of people; even easier, where is only one susceptible individual at a time. When they then get together each individual reinforces the original sugestion or sugestions one to another, in the belief that the sugestion is their own original belief.

So think about it WIAN, it is your life, and if it is "better now", ask yourself what sort of state was it in before, and why? Also, how come all those who have left are aware they are being slagged off? Many of whom, are now wary or frightened to speak out, as evidenced on this thread.

Best wishes. Have happy weekend.

No sooner do I turn my back - there are a million (exageration - for enlightened students) more postings.
Midnightcrawler
Interesting slant on conditioning - not sure that opperant/respondent conditoning would apply here but you may want to consider modelling theory (Bandura etc)As for socio economic theory - again I find interesting but do not know the group well enough to comment. My own current art (Ki Aikido) has an 'accross the board' socio-economic representation.

whats in a name?
So sorry, as this may come accross as a personal attack but I have to question some of the things you have said because they are not congruent... you appear to talk the talk but walk the walk, I'm not sure? (if you feel this is personal, you have my e'mail address - appreciate that you are a 'private person)
“I am aware that it is not 100% original to fuedal times Bushido as again I have been led to believe that it has had to adapt to a more modern way of existence"
Not 100% original?!!!! It was made up after 1979, with no - no links whatsoever to Japan Bushido etc.
"I am not sure why(if indeed)the lies were made.Does this trouble me? Well yes it does but I am a law unto myself so am not(nor have been)ready to sell my being into the heart of the school,but don't get me wrong I still support the school because it has evoked in me my sense of honour"
"As for the possible deception,well let's just say that it does not trouble me for I am aware that it could exist and I will always look after my own."
If you have a sense of honour - how can you accept a system built on lies? If you have honour do you have integrity?? You adopt a stance of F U jack I'm allright!! Do you not feel any sense of responsibility to others who do not have your stoicism??
"Maybe a truth is more believable if it is belived to be true."
Call me stupid (not a request - and many have) but the truth is the truth whether it is believed or not - unless of course you do not beleive that to be true?!!

Regarding the 'type' of people who embody the majority of BAMA. During my time at the school I went to the christmas meal for london and Cambridge Dojo's, through chatting to everyone there (36 students), i can tell you that there are a number of students that are also in to amateur dramatics, 2 of those present were Medical doctors, also, because the lessons are booked like personal training and available during the day, the school will attract shift workers and those who do not have their evenings free- i know that was a big factor for me.

Interestingly enough, whilst the lessons are 1 on 1 or v.small groups, the Grading i went to was a huge culture shock, 250 students, all of us lined up doing drills, being barked at in a military fashion by the black belts. I was taken to the side and admonished by a 1st Dan for walking to close to a senior member of the school! Try respecting everyones personal space in a sports hall overcrowded with people doing kata- not easy. The attitude of the black belts supervising the activities was once the shock wore off, quite funny, I felt like i was training on Han's island, just waiting for Bolo to kick my ass :-)

I'd like to comment on a few points.

Firstly, the 'bad-mouthing' of people who leave BAMA. During my time there, I witnessed 2 occasions where higher graded members had left, and 2 or more of the black belts were 'discussing' it in the dojo office, clearly unaware of how well their voices were travelling into the entrance hall area. Let's just say that their comments weren't exactly complimentary. This surprised me at the time, as I was still quite a new member, and this didn't fit in at all with one particular entry in the BAMA 'Code Of Conduct' as found in the membership book, about criticising others.

Secondly, the socio-economic spread of the members at my dojo was actually quite diverse. I myself am a reasonably successful and well-off IT analyst for a large company. In my time at BAMA, I met students, admin workers, financiers, accountants and other IT professionals - across a broad age range. So in my experience at least, the assumption that BAMA exploits the less well-off is not correct.

Lastly, I have to agree with Cord's comments above regarding the gradings. A big change from the culture of the lessons. Whether this is how other schools operate, I cannot comment. It always seemed a bit seedy and felt cheap to me.

So that is where I come to my end in this forum (sorry if long post but I am off so bear with me).
Liquidthuoghtz: quite correct I do not represent B.A.M.A I represent me and my concept of B.A.M.A I affiliate myself with this school for all that it can give me and all that I can "assimilate" into my own collective.I am my own way and for now enjoy learning from this school what I can to suit my world.Perhaps one day I will branch off and open my own school or not,(The school of honour).

Skiggsy: I realise that the school is not 100% Bushido,I merely believe that it has chosen to follow that path whether it has roots there or not and the MA's are all rooted from some eastern art even if taught to Master Chusan via western sources,(as for the name change I'm not really bothered it's the man in front of me I'm interested in not his name or why he changed it,I'll trust my gut on this it rarely fails me).

On honour and the B.A.M.A I take my honour from face value of each individual I meet witihn B.A.M.A if I think they lack honour then it is the individual not the school/system,even if it is the head of the school as the school is only as worthy as it's students,that's me and those I affiliate myself with who I deem to be honourable-The Way is not the head but just a path each man follows and I follow mine independently but with honour.(my words,my belief,my way as you follow yours).If some men/women are not honourable then they face their own judge even if they are high up and that is their own problem which they must deal with as they see fit but they will not cross my line and others in my path will feel my sense of honour and judge it as they see fit.

Sense of sympathy is indeed within me and I am always just and fair in all moments of my life so always will stand up for those around me in the school who need my support or if they seem to falter,I will offer them the hand of humane kindness and understanding and will not tolerate injustice so should I choose to have any students of my own they will have a humble and fair mentor in me not the system.

Midnightcrawler: last but not least,I have enjoyed the challenges our conversations have offered me.They have given me a chance to appreciate who I am and what I stand for within Bushido.I don't wish to share any more thoughts as I have found the conclusion to my brief affair in this forum and I thank you for your questions,I hope I have helped you and others to understand a little more of the people within B.A.M.A for I believe I stand correct when I say that there are others who stand with my gentle approach to Bushido/zen and all are not lost in the way of this school.

" In one moment the symphony of our vision
will sing for eternity and whisper
beauty in your dreams,
for this is the gift of love,
the language of life. "

DOMO.

my word.


[This message has been edited by liquidthoughtz (edited 01-31-2005).]

I'm glad i left, i couldnt handle the RSI involved in defending the organisation :-)

I get the impression that WIAN's been got at, or threatened. Someone has identified them by the way they express themselves perhaps.

What do you think?

I dont think so. I dont think that he has been threatened.


The "zen" of BAMA could be the cause.
I dont think that the teachers are responsible enough themselves to be playing with other peoples minds.

If you want to learn "zen" learn from a gifted monk or a priest.

At the BAMA they teach you to judge other people more than accept other people. With their 7 animals system and their "selective zen" ways.

Its funny how it all goes quiet when the facts are presented and all the right questions asked.




[This message has been edited by liquidthoughtz (edited 01-31-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by liquidthoughtz:
I dont think so. I dont think that he has been threatened.

Quite correct I have not been threatened, only I've had enough of being treated like a silly child by all you who attempt to politely point out my misdirection.You are all very "tied up" in YOUR CLOSE KINT GROUP which I am obviously not a member of because I do not subscribe to your views,how open minded are you????????????not very because I am judged before I appear simply because I support B.A.M.A


They say that he is definately disturbed.
I was like this too at one point.

This is a very sweeping statement and typical of the microscope of scrutiny I have been placed under,have you no decency that you might deal with me on face value instead of analyzing each key I tap.You do not know me nor will truly understand me by flicking through your textbooks and finding me under pharagraph 2. a metaphor for your friend to label me further,thankyou for the knife you stab into my honest demeanour.


The "zen" of BAMA is the cause.
The teachers arent responsible enough themselves to be playing with peoples minds.

Forget about your crusade for 1 second and realise that my take on their zen is with a pinch of salt to make it work for me ie. on a common sense level not by "going deep man" and losing my entire sense of reality in the mystical world of zen,I've read books on zen and some suggest a much harder line to approaching zen with constant meditation and focusing on reducing your daily thoughts to only absorbing exact moment experience so as not to miss out on the "great cosmos",this is typical of how you all are so narrow minded and judge me on the miniscual info I have divulged (apologies to those who do not judge).

At the BAMA they teach you to judge other people more than accept other people.
I have covered this in previous posts.

JUDGE you say and judge me you all have,take a hard look in your monitor or better still ask yourself if you have found me to make blatant remarks of judgement against your views....I have only ever merely tried to explain my views and used my TRUE LIFE experiences to give a diplomatic opinion yet you all hide behind your opinion of what you PERCIEVE me to have become because surely I must of as I am a member of the "dreaded cult",how silly you are in this box of labels.


Its ironic because "WIAN" has come here to defend the BAMA, but in doing so has displayed himself as a prime example of the "life-changing" ways of the BAMA.

I do defend B.A.M.A and my life has not "changed" so dramatically,I still lose my temper,I still forget to be selfless,I still make mistakes and do things that I am typically aware of that may be going against the grain of their zen ideals.I still attempt to be the human I ever was since a little boy struggling to understand the injustice of humanity and here I am being proved yet again that man will not attempt to understand once he has set his mind to it,this forum group is mind-set and nothing will change that,I feel it is a great sadness that you will all twist this so cruelly against me,you all remind me of the danger of human civilty as you smile and crush me in one post,LEAVE ME OUT OF YOUR SILLY GAME FOR IN ALL YOUR COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN TO BE KIND OR UNDERSTANDING.

P.S I do not care if it is a long and boring post,do you seriously think I want to adhere to your rules for in this you are as manipulative and undermining as you would CLAIM B.A.M.A TO BE.
Goodbye and good riddance,
P.P.S have fun in tearing me apart,there isn't much left for you to eat but gristle and dignity.......
is it not a sad state that we come to this for all your intentions have succeded in attacking and ostricizing me from YOUR group.Should I of pretended to be "damaged goods" from B.A.M.A then I think you all would have opened your arms and readily accepted me into your fold,this last thought is what truly makes me sick.....so foolish in your way,your face of humanity is corrupt and dangerous and you wonder why B.A.M.A supporters don't stay around for long...as you all JUDGE,JUDGE,JUDGE...and I already know you will further condemn me for all that I have now said,how sad,how sad.
please do not instantly delete this moderaters as I feel that action will only point moreso to the onesidedness of this disscussion.Thank you.