Weight lifting help!

Posted by: Ender

Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 09:25 AM

Hey, I have recently joined my high school fitness/weight room.

However, I am worried as to whether there are any precautions I need to take so I can tone and build more muscle mass while at the same time not sacrificing speed or flexibility.

Comments?
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 09:50 AM

I am an avid weight trainer, as most of you probably know, but I can't help give you advice unless you tell me what kind of a body you're trying to achieve.

If you want to put on overall size and mass, work with low reps and heavy weight, about 6-8 reps.

If you want put to on decent size, with some good cuts, do medium reps and medium weight, about 10-12 reps.

If you want to have a very lean body, with tons of muscle definition, do higher reps with low weight, about 15-30 reps.
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 09:56 AM

Its a bit of a myth that becoming 'big' will slow you down.

Tyson has massive arms, but he's also got/ had, outrageous hand speed.

If you don't want to loose flexibility - carry on stretching!

Don't give way to vanity - at least not too much! By that I mean make your exercises functional, rather than just being able to shift tonnes.

Try and explode with the weight, rather than just pushing it out.

Don't get too carried away with benching, squating and curling, some guys I train with do. They can't deadlift a proportionate amount for instance.

Use free weights in preference to machines - you have to control the weight and use both sides of the body equally, rather than just grunting and shifting.

Remember your back and your legs.

Also, bodyweight exercises work! crunches, pressups, chinups - and vary them so you work different muscle groups. Spread your grip on the chinups, or change the grip. Pressups wide and narrow.

To get big: high weight low reps.

Endurance: low weight high reps.

Tone up - somewhere in the middle.

Be careful. I'm 19 - haven't grown upwards in a three years, I started lifting properly last year. - But if your still growing you don't want to be shifting a lot of weight.

I definitely more toned now than I was 18mths ago, but I'm also half a stone lighter because of my change in diet. It's definitely helped in throwing hard single and double shots.

UKFF will probably be more helpful. I hope some of thats of use to you.

Alec.
Posted by: Ender

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 09:59 AM

I am anturally well built for my size (I am 5'11 and about 160 pounds).

The reason I want to began weight training is mainly to even out the exercises I already do (as my left half of my body gets more during pushups than my right does, etc).

I am mainly looking to work my chest muscles, but not for huge bulk. Also, I want to strngthen my back to make my kicks better.
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 10:12 AM

Deadlifts for the back.

Benching with a relatively narrow grip for inner chest. Get on the Pec Dec if you can. Also using dumbells,bend over at the hips to about 45 degrees. Look up keep the back straight and lift them off the ground opening your chest up as you pull the weights up beside your chest. - Get someone to show you.

Also for the back - get into pressup position, and lift one limb off the ground. Keep your back straight and body in line. Put that limb down after about 20/30 seconds and lift another one off the ground, do all four limbs. Repeat until knackered. You need good back strength just to hold a good pressup position for a long time.

If you want to shove your hips into a good front kick, you need good lower back flexibility. Theres a post burried on here somewhere regarding 'wall walking', check that out.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 10-25-2003).]
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 10:18 AM

I would go with YS on this but to add a little more.

Weight training - done properly can increase both speed and flexibility.

For power go for low reps - 3 - 5, Mass 8 - 12 and 15 - 25 endurance.

If you perform exercises such as squats, straight leg dead lifts, lunges (front and side) you should see your flexibility sky rocket (There were some heats of the Britains strongest man where a guy got all 5 atlas stones up and his celebration at the end was to jump into a side split!)

Just think of it like this:

Most people think/say big muscles make you slow.

That is why all the sprinters in the world are really skinny and all the long distance runners are as big as body builders.....

And those skinny sprinters jumping over hurdles are really inflexible?

Being very strong is the only way to safely achieve a suspended split - go to www.stadion.com/column.html and do some reading!
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 10:30 AM

Use free weights in preference to machines - you have to control the weight and use both sides of the body equally, rather than just grunting and shifting.

I beg to differ. For a lot of excersises, I find machines to give me a much better workout and development than freeweights. I agree that you should do bench press and military with a dumbell or barbell, but when doing preacher curls, USE A MACHINE. This way you get a burn all the way through the motion, instead of the barbell/dumbell dropping on your shoulders, half way. This can't be prevented. I recommend using a preacher curl machine over freeweight preacher curl any day.

Also, for triceps, there's no better excersise than using a lat tower for pushdowns. That way you iliminate the elbow joint pain received when doing French presses.

I recommend using a combination of both... Here is something what my workout schedule looks like.

Biceps-alternate dumbell curls preacher curl machine, barbell/EZ bar curls.
Triceps-pushdowns, dips, arm extensions.
Back-pullups, lat pulldown.
Legs-leg presses, leg extensions, and calf raises.
Chest-bench press, pec fly.
Shoulders- smith machine military press, dumbell overhead presses.
Posted by: training

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 11:15 AM

WOW, all you guys really summed it up pretty well. Any thing else I can help with, let me know?

This is me not too long ago. http://mostmuscular.com/oktxbb/2002SWUSA/numbers/59f.jpg
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 11:21 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by training:
WOW, all you guys really summed it up pretty well. Any thing else I can help with, let me know?

This is me not too long ago. http://mostmuscular.com/oktxbb/2002SWUSA/numbers/59f.jpg
[/QUOTE]

ROTFL!!!!
Posted by: Ender

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 01:48 PM

Lol, thanks, all of you.

However, I also consulted my Senpei, and he advised against my wieght training at all for a number of reasons.

1) I am 16 and am not finished growing.
2) By hardening my body with weights, I will lose or counteract my ability to relax when I need to (in a fight for instance) at this point.

He doesn't recommend weight training until Nidan (second degree black) when people are fully developed and can relax.
Posted by: Tkdstreetfighter88

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 06:18 PM

Yo student is 100% correct
Size does not sacrifice speed by all means it increases it.
Stretching is very important though.
Stretch heavily before you start pumping iron
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/25/03 06:50 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
Lol, thanks, all of you.

However, I also consulted my Senpei, and he advised against my wieght training at all for a number of reasons.

1) I am 16 and am not finished growing.
2) By hardening my body with weights, I will lose or counteract my ability to relax when I need to (in a fight for instance) at this point.

He doesn't recommend weight training until Nidan (second degree black) when people are fully developed and can relax.
[/QUOTE]

I agree completely with number 1. I'd add that theres no harm in trying the body weight exercises though (dips, squats, pressups, chinups, situps, leg raises). Its so much easier to work on technique if you're fit and strong.

Regarding number 2 I would have to say that sounds like nonsense to me. No disrespect Ender, but it doesn't hold with what I have been taught/read/learnt.

Alec.


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 10-25-2003).]
Posted by: Ender

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/26/03 06:54 AM

Be that as it may, I feel obliged to go with what my Senpei instructs. He has never led me wrong before, and all his advice given to me in the past has been worthwhile.

However, I intend to have a more indepth conversation with him about this on monday.

I will get back to you with the results.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/26/03 03:09 PM

Weight training does not prevent you from being able to relax. In fact when done properly it will do just the opposite. When you develop your muscles properly you will gain control of them and be able to contract and relax them at will. It is weak muscles that tighten up when you do not want them to.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/27/03 05:58 AM

I again with everybody else agree with point 1 (a point which I have made a few times before anyway - and actaully forgot you were young).

As for point 2, I would like to know where your sensei found this information, I would be interested to read it to see a different point of view. Could you ask him for references?

I would look at Matt Furey's stuff for body weight if you are interested in strenth and power just using your bodyweight (I mean most people doing weights can't perform 10 handstand pressups!)
Posted by: ChangLab

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/27/03 11:49 AM

I feel I must add a few things here
(regardless of weather you decide to "lift" or not Ender)
First I've found that FORM IS EVERYTHING
when it comes to weightlifting.
have someone show you how to lift properly
alot of people injure themselvs way to often
by lifting in "bad form" or using too much weight too early.
much like self defence weight lifting requires some instruction.
just going through the motions isn't enough or worse dangerous to your ligaments tendons and the muscles themselvs.
one small peice of advice is to use a 5 count when lifting
"one...two...three...(the weight should be at the top of the rep)hold it for a 1/2 count
and four... five and the weight should be at the low end of the rep
that will help you achieve "slow controlled movement" and maximise your workout.

good luck

Mark
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/27/03 03:38 PM

Training: If that is you...then great job. It takes a lot of work and dedication to look like that. I have been weight training for 3 years myself. Personal trainer...
Posted by: Ender

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/27/03 03:41 PM

I do believe he was kidding, Jag.

LoL.
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/30/03 01:43 PM

ohh...sorry. I am used to seeing built bodies. Heading to Atlanta for this years GNC Show of Strength next weekend. I can't wait.
Posted by: Raven

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/30/03 05:07 PM

WOW........i never knew the world of weight trainers was so contradicting from one another, I'm reading some other stuff on other sites and some say steroids are good other say its bad( from what i've heard, i think they're bad...but i don't know much about them to give a definite opinion) wow...just wow
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/30/03 07:05 PM

Steroids aren't as bad as they are made out to be. People injest caffeine, alcohol, nicotine all the time with there known detrimental effects. All depends on how you value yourself and how wise you are with what you have. Used wisely, steroids can be a big help or give you the extra edge that you have been trying to attain. Are they addictive? . . .they can be, but so can anything if you let it. Depends on what you do with the roids. I know many guys that use steroids...I don't mean abuse them. The media always portrays abuse. A cycle every now and then might not be the healthiest thing to do, but eating twinkies aren't either. However, when used correctly steroids can be a helping hand to the weightlifter. Just like a little wine does the body good. Of course...they are illegal. They offer legal anabolic steroids that accomplish the same thing just on a much weaker/smaller scale. You get what you pay for most of the time. You just need to excercise good judgement.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/31/03 05:30 AM

There is no need for steriods in training.

The only place I see for them is the body building world where hypertrophy is the name of the game.

For other sports its unfair advantage.

Check out some of the natural bodybuilding mags and see what you can do without them.

As well as everyone at the olymics (well most!)
Posted by: charles mckey

Re: Weight lifting help! - 10/31/03 05:49 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UKfightfreak:
I would look at Matt Furey's stuff for body weight if you are interested in strenth and power just using your bodyweight (I mean most people doing weights can't perform 10 handstand pressups!)[/QUOTE]

Scrapper's site is great too - some terrific workouts, and nice explanations of the exercises. http://www.trainforstrength.com/workouts.shtml
Posted by: training

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/06/03 12:46 PM

LoL, thanks JAG. that is me. Have you tried competing before?
Posted by: Fenris

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/06/03 04:02 PM

Well, I kind of feel I need to jump in, even though Ender may ultimately choose to follow his Sempai's instruction.

As far as I know there are no scientific studies that prove the harmfullness of weight training to younger age groups, rather to contrary. There are, however, several myths, "stunted growth" foremost among them.

To develop strength, stay in 1-5 rep,2-3 set range. This will develop fast twitch muscles and add strength without bulk. For bulk, just increase number of sets.
Developing strength will, in itself, add to your speed and power, but to take maximal advantage of it, you might want to add some explosive and plyometric exercises later, when you have developed sufficient base strength.
For endurance, I recommend using bodyweight exercises and saving iron for strength. Stretching after workouts reduces soreness, speeds recovery, and improves your results.

I scorn machines for numerous reasons. Foremost among them, machines don't train your stabilizing muscles which reduces their effectiveness for functional strength training. I favor free weights and compound exercises. Compound exercises force you to use many muscle groups at once and develop functional strength. Curls, for example, are an isolation exercise for bodybuilding, not for sports training.
DEADLIFT, squat, presses, weighted chins, power cleans and snatches are very functional
exercises. For punching power, an exercise called full contact twist is my personal favorite.

I started systematic weight training little over a year ago and I've seen a great carryover to my MA practice. Speed, power, balance, body control and tolerance of punishment have all improved. Excess tension has not been problem. Only drawback of rational strength training is probably temptation to power your way through and neglect technique, but this can be controlled through awareness.

The best site I know regarding strength training, especially concerning MA, is www.dragondoor.com. Their forums are a treasurehouse of information, articles and products are excellent. By the way, there is a user named Ender on their forum.
Relative?

Well, it seems my rant stretched a bit, and probably won't help much without some basic knowledge of weight training. It
comes from seeing too many people performing 30- rep curls to get toned. Cheers.

[This message has been edited by Fenris (edited 11-06-2003).]
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/07/03 05:25 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fenris:
Well, I kind of feel I need to jump in, even though Ender may ultimately choose to follow his Sempai's instruction.

As far as I know there are no scientific studies that prove the harmfullness of weight training to younger age groups, rather to contrary. There are, however, several myths, "stunted growth" foremost among them.

[This message has been edited by Fenris (edited 11-06-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

I have never read any research on "stunted growth" and agree with you on that point - but I have read much research on detrimental effects of weight training to the development of bones. Most of the detrimental effects won't surface until much later with joint problems etc.

I will try and get together some references for you if you wish.
Posted by: Fenris

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/07/03 05:41 AM

Sure UKfightfreak, that would be good.

General consensus among those who train younger people with weights seems to be: "avoid maximal weights" This is probably in part because at younger age development comes with less effort, and thus there is no need for such. However, I don't know that much about this subject- I can't really post specific age limits, or optimal training methods for each age bracket.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/07/03 05:51 AM

Hi,

Just for speed (as I am on my lunch break at work) there is a good book on the subject that I havn't read - but heard good things.

Its at http://www.stadion.com/children.html

I don't think weights are a complete no, no. But you can get such good workouts with bodyweight exercises it probably not worth risking it.

I forgot to mention, I completely agree with you on machines!!!
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/07/03 12:33 PM

I scorn machines for numerous reasons. Foremost among them, machines don't train your stabilizing muscles which reduces their effectiveness for functional strength training. I favor free weights and compound exercises.

I disagree about both of your statements. First off, machines definately should be added to your workout regime. Reasons machines work better are because they isolate the muscles, i.e. it's a lot harder to cheat. When doing a barbell curl, you can put your whole body into it. When using the Cybex curl machine however, your arms are locked into position, and you simply grab the handles and bring them toward you. You can't cheat on this, because that's not in the motion of the machine. For triceps, you should use the Cybex arm extension over French presses. French presses really kill your elbow joints.

I also disagree to some extent with only using compound movements. While they will let you build, you should work just about every muscle so you don't become musclebound, with huge shoulders and chest, but pencil sized arms. Biceps and triceps must be added to your workout!
Posted by: immrtldragon

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/07/03 12:58 PM

Ninja, you can't cheat doing preacher curls with free weights. Also, I believe machines are a good place to start, but proper technique with free weights is what I have always liked better. You don't cheat if you concentrate on form. If you find yourself cheating, lessen the weight. I also train full body, working biceps/triceps so that I will be well proportioned. Compound exercises are the best if you are short on time, but I wouldn't neglect any body part in specific training. Just my opinions and there are facts to argue either case, however.
Posted by: CanuckMA

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/07/03 05:08 PM

You shouldn't do heavy weight training when you are young. It outs an undue amount of stress on the tendons at the insertion point to the bone. The growth plates are located in the extremities of the bones and are a very sensitive part of the bone.

Ender, with all due respect to your Senpei, a lot of them do not know fitness. I have seen too many of them start classes with deep stretching exercises without proper warmup (running, jumping jacks).
Posted by: Fenris

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/09/03 10:34 AM

I disagree about both of your statements. First off, machines definately should be added to your workout regime. Reasons machines work better are because they isolate the muscles, i.e. it's a lot harder to cheat. When doing a barbell curl, you can put your whole body into it. When using the Cybex curl machine however, your arms are locked into position, and you simply grab the handles and bring them toward you. You can't cheat on this, because that's not in the motion of the machine. For triceps, you should use the Cybex arm extension over French presses. French presses really kill your elbow joints.

I also disagree to some extent with only using compound movements. While they will let you build, you should work just about every muscle so you don't become musclebound, with huge shoulders and chest, but pencil sized arms. Biceps and triceps must be added to your workout!

Oh well, perhaps I didn't state my opinions clearly enough.

I don't believe in isolation exercises whether they are done with machines or weights. I believe muscles should be taught to work together. And how can anyone cheat with, for example, deadlift or pullup? I dot't do french presses.

Also, I don't use weights to build up. And
presses and pullups certainly work my arms, along with the rest of upper body.

Oh, by the way, according to Mel Siff, running, jumping, throwing and the like can stress musculoskeletal system worse than heavy lifting. He advocates lifting for kids.
Caught this in a magazine article this weekend.
Posted by: Ender

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/09/03 10:50 AM

Actually My Senpei is VERY well versed in fitness (yes, I know this for a fact, as I have done my own research). He has given me loads of great advice before.
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/09/03 08:31 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by training:
LoL, thanks JAG. that is me. Have you tried competing before?[/QUOTE]

No. I haven't competed yet. I am a hardgainer...so it will take some time. I am into powerlifting somewhat. I just got back from the GNC show of strength all of 10 minutes ago. Great expo weekend. Met Lou Ferrigno, Dexter Jackson, Strongest man in the world, you name it.
Posted by: UKfightfreak

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/10/03 05:37 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ninja-raiden:
Reasons machines work better are because they isolate the muscles, i.e. it's a lot harder to cheat. When doing a barbell curl, you can put your whole body into it. When using the Cybex curl machine however, your arms are "locked" into position, and you simply grab the handles and bring them toward you. You can't cheat on this, because that's not in the motion of the machine. For triceps, you should use the Cybex arm extension over French presses. French presses really kill your elbow joints.

I also disagree to some extent with only using compound movements. While they will let you build, you should work just about every muscle so you don't become musclebound, with huge shoulders and chest, but pencil sized arms. Biceps and triceps must be added to your workout!
[/QUOTE]

I don't know where you get your information from, but using isolated movements should be left to the bodybuilders for several reasons I can't be bothered to explain.

Using compound exercises will build all your muscles, that is why they are compound.

E.g.
Bench press (free weights) use chest, triceps, shoulders + stabalising muscles

Squat = just about everything!
Deadlift = As squat!

If you push with your arms it works your triceps.

If you pull with your arms it works your biceps.

You do not therefore need isolated arm exercises as they are worked in just about every other movement!!!

As for muscle bound - I would really like to know where you get your information from!!

It certainly not from any text worthwhile reading!!!!
Posted by: mrhubbs

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/10/03 04:00 PM

I gotta go with UK on this compound movement thing.

I will not be so bold as to say there is NO place for isolation movements. (I sometimes use them to preexhaust big muscle groups.) Still, the big compound movements are best for overall size and strength and a concentration on these simply does not lead to an imbalanced physique. It is nearly impossible to develop a big bench without slapping some meat on those triceps and you just can't do heavy weighted chins or bent over rows witbout hitting your biceps. Ever look at the arms of powerlifters? Minimum time spent on direct arm work...and massive arms.

Having said that, my workouts do usually include a SINGLE exercise for each of these small muscle groups. What can I say...I'm vain. When life gets crazy, however, and time is hard to come by, the direct arm exercises are the first to go. I don't feel an ounce of guilt about it...nor do my arms shrink.

A more serious offense than neglecting arm exercises, and perhaps more common, is to give more attention to one side of a pair of opposing muscle groups. Excessive benchpressing without working the mid traps and rhomboids for example lead to that cromagnan round shouldered look. Many people have a tendency to focus on the "beach" or "mirror" muscles. As I understand it, this kind of imbalance can lead to injuries.

Also, I've been seeing some blanket statements about machines versus freeweights, but certainly everyone can acknowledge that both have their place. I do prefer freeweights and while you certainly can cheat with these, the idea is to be a student of good form and to not let your ego force you to lift more than you can handle in said manner. I do like a good shoulder press machine, however. I find barbell militaries to be awkward and I have trouble positioning heavy dumbells into place for shoulder presses. Hence my love of a good machine for this. Just one example of a time when I appreciate Hammer Strength and Cybex. (Just don't take the power rack out of the gym to fit in an inner/outer thigh machine.)

By the way, I'm still recommending Brawn by Stuart McRobert and his website www.hardgainer.com for those interested in realistic bodybuilding for the average individual.

Good lifting and training, folks.

David
Posted by: mrhubbs

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/10/03 04:09 PM

Oh, and while I'm here.

I can relate to the sensei who is anti-weights. My instructor and I were changing for class one day when he grabbed my bicep and chastised me for too much time in the gym. He asked me to squeeze his bicep to see how "squishy" it was. Again, his comment was that his was a relaxed muscle while mine was merely an enlarged (slightly [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ) one. I was a little grossed out by just how squishy he was, but to his credit, he could hit like a truck. To my credit, however, we clinched one day during sparring and I nearly lifted him over my head.

I think you can lift, be strong, and still be relaxed. Just train that way.
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/10/03 09:24 PM

I am amazed at the ignorant ideas/thoughts people have about weight training. But I guess ridiculous notions exist in all sports and interests.

Free weight training is the best way to go. You want to stregthen all muscles - stabilizers along with the targeted body part. Machines eliminate the use of stabilizer muscles. While machines have advantages - targeting certain heads/parts of a muscle and to aid in muscle rehabilitation - by and large they can handicap the body builder. A person can flat bench 200lbs on a machine but struggle with 30lb dumbells on a flat bench.

As for squishy muscles? BS. I have seen 250lb pro body builders with legs as hard as rocks go into splits at bodybuilding shows. If you don't work at flexibility and over all conditioning - you will lose it. But you can be big and strong and dense! And stay flexible
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 09:11 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrhubbs:
I gotta go with UK on this compound movement thing.

I will not be so bold as to say there is NO place for isolation movements. (I sometimes use them to preexhaust big muscle groups.) Still, the big compound movements are best for overall size and strength and a concentration on these simply does not lead to an imbalanced physique. It is nearly impossible to develop a big bench without slapping some meat on those triceps and you just can't do heavy weighted chins or bent over rows witbout hitting your biceps. Ever look at the arms of powerlifters? Minimum time spent on direct arm work...and massive arms.

Having said that, my workouts do usually include a SINGLE exercise for each of these small muscle groups. What can I say...I'm vain. When life gets crazy, however, and time is hard to come by, the direct arm exercises are the first to go. I don't feel an ounce of guilt about it...nor do my arms shrink.

A more serious offense than neglecting arm exercises, and perhaps more common, is to give more attention to one side of a pair of opposing muscle groups. Excessive benchpressing without working the mid traps and rhomboids for example lead to that cromagnan round shouldered look. Many people have a tendency to focus on the "beach" or "mirror" muscles. As I understand it, this kind of imbalance can lead to injuries.

Also, I've been seeing some blanket statements about machines versus freeweights, but certainly everyone can acknowledge that both have their place. I do prefer freeweights and while you certainly can cheat with these, the idea is to be a student of good form and to not let your ego force you to lift more than you can handle in said manner. I do like a good shoulder press machine, however. I find barbell militaries to be awkward and I have trouble positioning heavy dumbells into place for shoulder presses. Hence my love of a good machine for this. Just one example of a time when I appreciate Hammer Strength and Cybex. (Just don't take the power rack out of the gym to fit in an inner/outer thigh machine.)

By the way, I'm still recommending Brawn by Stuart McRobert and his website www.hardgainer.com for those interested in realistic bodybuilding for the average individual.

Good lifting and training, folks.

David
[/QUOTE]


Well, I'm glad SOMEBODY agrees with me that isolation movements have their place. All I was saying before was that isolations should not be neglected. Sure I do tons of compound movements; bench, squat, military, etc., but I also do isolation movements just to add a little extra.

And I also agree about doing military presses with a smith machine. I too find it hard to balance a barbell(forget about dumbells!), when bringing it down for the next rep, and unless you're bringing the bar down to your chest area, you're simply doing a tricep workout.

I say do compound excersises, they're great! Just, if you have the time, do isolation movements as well.
Posted by: mrhubbs

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 12:07 PM

Jag,

I think you miss my points.

1. I think freeweights ARE best. Your comment about stabilizing muscles (and lets not forget balance) are completely accurate and to go one better, my own homegym is set up to accomodate a powerlifting style workout. There are no machines. I don't even do lat pulldowns anymore in favor of weighted chin ups and pull ups.

I simply refuse to say "machines, BAD!" They have a place in the gym. It might not be a big one, but they have their place.

2. I ALSO think the squishy muscles thing is B.S. My instructor (actually my instructor's instructor) buys into this notion and is terribly "soft." I do not believe in this. He hits hard because he has good technique. I believe you can have strong muscles AND good technique. The last sentence of that post was meant to indicate that. I will never stop lifting and continue to train in the martial arts.

I think if you review my posts you will see that I am not harboring any "crazy" notions about weight training. In fact, before I became a school teacher I was a multiply certified personal trainer and a member of the National Strengthening and Conditioning Association. I simply take a more moderate view on the role of machines, particularly when they make my lifting a little more productive. (I used the shoulder press as an example of an exercise that I do with a machine simply because, when I am in my best shape, I can lift much more than I can get into position on my own.)

I believe we see eye to eye on this, in general.

David
Posted by: mrhubbs

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 12:18 PM

Jag,

I was reviewing this thread and I noticed that you used the term "hardgainer" to describe yourself. I wonder if you are familiar with Stuart McRobert who I thought coined the term hardgainer (probably not). As I have mentioned before to UKFightfreak, I think you would really enjoy his work...a big focus on simple, compound movements with freeweights, and lots of recovery time. (He is not necessarily an advocate of HIT training, but he's not one of those big volume guys, either.) I have found his suggestions on progression to be most helpful and his work has guided me through many a plateau.

Good luck,

David
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 03:13 PM

Hubbs, I would love to see a picture of your home gym.
Posted by: mrhubbs

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 03:35 PM

Ninja-Raiden,

I don't have the ability to post a picture of it, but it consists of the following:

a TuffStuff power rack with a high/low pulley and a 200 lb weight stack. The rack also has dip handles, a chinning bar, and multiple bar catches. (I'm very pleased with my power rack as it is pretty much commercial quality.)

various bar attachments (lat pulldown and tricep pushdown bar, ankle cuff, tricep rope, seated row triangular bar, aboriginals for hanging leg raises)

about 400 lbs. of Olympic weight

dumbells (Powerblocks) from 5-85 lbs. in 2/12 lbs. increments

a flat/incline/decline bench from Bodysolid

Several Olympic bars including a standard bar, a curl bar, and a trap/deadlift bar

a calf raise stand

weighted chin and dip belt

a physio ball (you know those blow up yoga thingy's)

This is all set up in my garage. Half the room is dedicated to weight training and the other to martial arts/boxing. The martial arts area consists of:

a banana (thai) bag

a double end bag

mirrored wall

various training and protective equipment (jump rope, ripcords, etc.)

As a high school teacher, I am often too busy to get to the gym as often as I'd like and since moving to the sticks (Carmel, NY) there are really no good dojos in my area. This little retreat of mine has helped keep me a little more sane. I love it. Speaking of busy, I'm off to correct papers. Grades are due on Thursday!

David

P.S. Any suggestions about helpful additions to a homegym would be greatly appreciated! Christmas is right around the corner after all!
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 04:48 PM

David, I agree that we both agree in general :-) I workout & train at least 5 days out of a week. I incorporate a machine excercise into every muscle group I work out every day. I am not at all against machines. It is just that because machines are more "comfortable" and have have an easier motion people tend to stay in the machine section. Having been a member a long time at a local gym it is funny to watch people come and go. Most beginners start out in the machines. A few months later they start to feel good about themselves. So they make their way over to the free weights and the befuddled look they get when they struggle with 25lb dumb bells for shoulder and or chest presses is funny to me. Needless to say, most of them either quit or go back to the machines.
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 04:51 PM

Thanks for the info.

Hardgainer - ecto-morph build, naturally lean build with narrow muscles

And for the record...

Endo-morph - naturally thick build with short, blocky muscles - tends to gaing weight very easily

Mesomorph - the best of both worlds. Muscular build with easy muscles gains and medium body fat.
Posted by: Jag

Re: Weight lifting help! - 11/11/03 04:55 PM

Mr. Hubbs - thanks for the advice. I enjoy the strength gains from low volume powerlifting movements. I make gains in strength regularly, it is just my size that is a slow progression. I have a very fast metabolism and I have trouble making myself eat enough food each day to account for any major weight gain. I am on a special diet as well due for health reasons. I don't have anything to complain about...it is just there there is never big enough.

5'11 - 170lbs.