self defense

Posted by: Big Bear

self defense - 07/27/03 04:12 PM

If you were faced with a hostile situation that you know will turn violent (no amount of talking will calm the other person down), what would be the first move on your part?

Would it be a kick to the groin or knee? Finger jab to eyes? Or a light finger jab to the throat.

Any opinion on the matter would be most welcome. And have you ever used it before?

Regards

Big Bear
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: self defense - 07/27/03 04:40 PM

It depends on the situation. If I knew it was going to be violent and leaving was possible, I would leave.
If I could not leave and truly believed I was about to be attacked, and was in immediate danger, I would favour a pre emptive strike (or several strikes if neccesary) to the head.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 07-27-2003).]
Posted by: Sweeney

Re: self defense - 07/27/03 06:14 PM

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Posted by: MrVigerous

Re: self defense - 07/27/03 06:48 PM

I imagine you will get the traditional
"flowery" responses to this question ie:

"i'd kick him in the knee followed by a spearhand strike to the throat and then throw him though a plate glass window."

Er...what a load of bull. A very hard punch (or three) on the jaw is still by far the single most effective percentage strike there is when the aim of the game is to win and win quickly. Everything else is for posers with a death wish and theorists. I'm sure someone will shortly seek to educate me to the contrary but the fact remains that in REALITY when i've connected the confrontation has ended there and then. That to me is pretty good evidence that this is as near to the definitive technique as there is. That and the fact that a multitude of skilled fighters worldwide share this opinion.

Regds

Mr V

[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 07-27-2003).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: self defense - 07/27/03 07:03 PM

How do I know it will turn violent? because he dropped into a boxing stance, slapped me with a glove and announced "pistols at dawn"?
How is he standing? How far away?
Posted by: Ender

Re: self defense - 07/27/03 09:41 PM

Why pick? do all 3!

As for which one first? Depends on what position my body is in when attacked, how large the attacker is, what part of his body is exposed the most, etc.

Mr. Vigerous...A simple punch to the jaw is the simplest (and therefore theoreticialy the most effective) course off action BUT, this is only true if you have practiced punching to the jaw (which most can do instintively). HOWEVER, IF, you, like me, practice maiming techniques to a large extent (as well as punches or all kind, I take a great interest in western boxing), you will be just as suited to jab out an eye or kick out a knee.

It all depends on what you are most comfortable with. As I have stated before I train the most devastating techniques the most i.e. eye, throat, knee, etc.

Why? Because when I fight, I fight to maim.
Posted by: judderman

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 02:14 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
Why pick? do all 3!

As for which one first? Depends on what position my body is in when attacked, how large the attacker is, what part of his body is exposed the most, etc.

Mr. Vigerous...A simple punch to the jaw is the simplest (and therefore theoreticialy the most effective) course off action BUT, this is only true if you have practiced punching to the jaw (which most can do instintively). HOWEVER, IF, you, like me, practice maiming techniques to a large extent (as well as punches or all kind, I take a great interest in western boxing), you will be just as suited to jab out an eye or kick out a knee.

It all depends on what you are most comfortable with. As I have stated before I train the most devastating techniques the most i.e. eye, throat, knee, etc.

Why? Because when I fight, I fight to maim.
[/QUOTE]

Yes Ender.

But remember, whilst he is having his "maimed" parts seen to by a doctor, you will be having yours seen to by the pathologist.

Trust me I learnt the hard way that these so called "maiming" techniques, leave a great deal to be desired.

At the end of the day, if you have the strength to maim someone and potentially kill them by striking the throat, then why not play it safe and go for the KO by hitting the jaw?

Budo.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 05:29 AM

Boxing blast or straight blast right down the pike.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 07-28-2003).]
Posted by: Big Bear

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 05:56 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nekogami13:
How do I know it will turn violent? because he dropped into a boxing stance, slapped me with a glove and announced "pistols at dawn"?
How is he standing? How far away?
[/QUOTE]

How do you know it will turn violent? Cos i said it would!! Ha ha ha. only messing. I agree that i probably should have described the situation more.

I mean when you feel threatened, when you feel that no amount of talking will solve the issue, when the other person just started to pick on you as he wanted to let off steam and thought you'd be an easy target. We've all saw it in the movies (i know film fights and street fights are two seperate situations but please humour me at this stage), the big guy picks on the little guy for no reason. Before i continue i must say that although it is extremely unlikely that this situation will occur to me (due to my size) it is still a possibility so i must think about it.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 08:04 AM

You can throw out any technique, but how do you know it will be effective? How do you know they won't block it?
I would try and wait for his first move and then go from there. Wait to see where they leave themselves open. Movement creates openings for you to attack.
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 08:50 AM

Headbutt em. Right in the nose, and realy hard.
Posted by: Ender

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 09:01 AM

You make a good point, Mr. Vigerous, but... I have used both sets of techniques in my own street encounters, and one thing I have learned is that, when somone is out to seriously hurt or kill you, you better drop them in the first couple of hits without even the slightest chance of them getting up.

As I've stated, people in my area (and it gets more violent outside my area), if you fight back, you better WIN or your ass is getting stabbed or shot.

These guys know how to take a hit, they have honed their technqiues through constant street struggles. A jaw punch just pisses people off in my area, it doesn't often end a fight.

Now, move that punch up from the jaw to the temple, and maybe I'll consider it. Also, to quote Bruce Lee "you have a foot of body for every inch of jaw" to shoot for. I would much rather shatter their floating ribs than punch them in the jaw (though I may use a jaw punch as a set up for that, but never do I rely on it to KO somone).
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 09:59 AM

Whether you want to believe it or not ender, a good jaw hit works better than it sounds.

Anyway, the headbutt is a realy underlooked upon attack. The situation you describe would be a perfect oponening for it because 1)the aggresor will be expecting the typical swing to the head and 2)you can execute it much quicker than a head punch. Once you crack the suckers nose, he's all yours for the next few seconds. Throw him on the ground after about 2 good stomach punches, which should be pretty easy, because he will most likely grab his nose in shock. Once on the ground, just kick him in the stomach. He'll be outa breath for atleast a minute, which should give you the time to walk away. Just make sure you don't walk away with your back turned toward him.
Posted by: piccolo

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 10:42 AM

How would you get close enough to get in a good headbutt? Just wondering.
Posted by: Big Bear

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 12:29 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ninja-raiden:
Whether you want to believe it or not ender, a good jaw hit works better than it sounds.

Anyway, the headbutt is a realy underlooked upon attack. The situation you describe would be a perfect oponening for it because 1)the aggresor will be expecting the typical swing to the head and 2)you can execute it much quicker than a head punch. Once you crack the suckers nose, he's all yours for the next few seconds. Throw him on the ground after about 2 good stomach punches, which should be pretty easy, because he will most likely grab his nose in shock. Once on the ground, just kick him in the stomach. He'll be outa breath for atleast a minute, which should give you the time to walk away. Just make sure you don't walk away with your back turned toward him.
[/QUOTE]

Ninja i hope this doesn't offend but rather than risking a head but that in my opinion means you to sacrafice speed for power, why not try to break their nose with a punch or a palm heel? It may not have the same power but its so much faster than a head butt that could be telegraphed.

Again no disrespect is meant.

Regards

Big Bear
Posted by: jamiew

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 12:32 PM

I would maybe strike with a head strike with the intention of distracting them, maybe by hitting the nose and making the eyes water, or I'd hit the shins and then run for it!
but thats just me!

Jamie
Posted by: MrVigerous

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 12:49 PM

Ender

Sorry but:

QUOTE:
" you better drop them in the first couple of hits without even the slightest chance of them getting up."

Correct me if im wrong but causing knockout or semi conscious daze followed by a further technique that incapacitates or causes complete knockout gives you exactly what you are suggesting. Basic physiology here folks, the brain is the control center; cause it to "short circuit" and major motor function ceases. I don't think im going out on a limb here or breaking new self defence ground to insist that a shot to the jaw is the best percentage shot to achieve this.

QUOTE:
" These guys know how to take a hit, they have honed their technqiues through constant street struggles. A jaw punch just pisses people off in my area, it doesn't often end a fight."

Sorry to say this but if you are finding this to be the case then you simply don't punch hard enough or accurately enough. You are talking about tossers on the street not pro heavyweight boxers who spend hours conditioning their neck muscles. Absolutely ANYONE can be knocked out if you generate sufficient force and target it correctly.

QUOTE:
"I would much rather shatter their floating ribs than punch them in the jaw (though I may use a jaw punch as a set up for that, but never do I rely on it to KO somone)."

Ok so maybe you cant RELY on the KO, but why in God's name just tap them on the jaw and then put all your effort into cracking a rib. Cracking a rib or two hurts certainly, but you usualy feel it when the adrenalin has warn off and often after you have kicked the stuffing out of someone who wasted their first vital shot tapping you on the jaw....

I'm basing my comments on proven real life experiences where the head shot NOT the body shot or the eye flick or the throat jab is consistently the deciding factor. Go and work on the door for a few nights and see how much of this nice MA theory works.

Regds
Mr V



[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 07-28-2003).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 01:42 PM

I mean when you feel threatened, when you feel that no amount of talking will solve the issue, when the other person just started to pick on you as he wanted to let off steam and thought you'd be an easy target.
Ok, so the enraged postal worker is coming at you with a special delivery-head butt or elbow to jaw or temple.
Head butt is a very fast,powerful attack if done correctly.
Use either to set up more attacks.Never rely on just one.
Posted by: Ender

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 01:47 PM

Mr.V, I udnerstand and respect that you have alot of experience, and I greatly value your opinion (honestly I do).

BUT, the kind of people I am talking about are drug dealers, etc, and are usually high or drunk (and thereofre will not feel pain).

Don't get me wrong, I don't underestimate the jaw punch, I am simply just more comfortable training maiming techniques, JUST IN CASE I get a guy who has a jaw made of solid wood (and there ARE boxers in my area, who DO work out alot, and are absolutely HUGE).

I understand the point your trying to make, and I agree with it to a point. HOWEVER, if the jaw punch doesn't affect them (whcih I have seen with my own two eyes many times), they might just get pissed off, pulla knife, and stick you, and that's the way the streets work near me.

I just prefer not to F*ck around. Why waste the time on a technique that MIGHT work (if thrown correctly)over a technique that WILL work (if thrown correctly).
Posted by: judderman

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 02:07 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
BUT, the kind of people I am talking about are drug dealers, etc, and are usually high or drunk (and thereofre will not feel pain).[/QUOTE]

Ender, it is a matter of physiology, not narcotic influence. If you disrupt the normal workings of the nervous system, it doesn't matter who they are.

I still find it dificult to see how a throat strike will stop someone, without killing them.

Unless this is what you want to do.

Budo.
Posted by: MrVigerous

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 07:07 PM

Ender

You clearly know the likely opponents in your area and their capabilities better than I do. You must of course train and operate in the manner that you believe best serves your self protection. I agree that in certain circumstances maiming and indeed killing strikes may be both rerquired and justified. My only concern is the very high level of difficulty required to stop and opponent cold with some of these techniques as compared to the much more mundane punch
on the jaw. If I ever come up against a person who looks at me and grins after ive just bounced my best right hook off of their jaw, I shall certainly consider retiring from the MAs - if indeed I survive the subsequent arse kicking [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: self defense - 07/28/03 10:15 PM

Because of the vigerous weight training and boxing I do, I understand the power behind a jaw punch. I would not use it if in a situation where someone is throwing strikes, but it'd be perfect for the situation described.

"Ninja i hope this doesn't offend but rather than risking a head but that in my opinion means you to sacrafice speed for power, why not try to break their nose with a punch or a palm heel? It may not have the same power but its so much faster than a head butt that could be telegraphed."

Because if performed well, a good headbutt would not only do the job, but also have the element of surprise that a punch or palm heel to the nose wouldn't have.

Of course though, I would use common sense before self defense. Depending on the attacker's size and energy level, I would try to just submission him with some basic hapkido defenses.
Posted by: kempo_jujitsu

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 04:58 AM

kyusho jutsu
there are two very useful pressure points on the jaw on both sides so thats four.(there are more actually but...)
a light strike at the correct angle on any one of them will make the opponent dizzy at the least, in many cases they will fall unconcious especially since you will be hitting them pretty hard.
what you do from there is up to you...so i would agree a punch to the jaw can do wonders, there are many many other targets on every part of the body, but i would agree "head shots" are the easiest, quickest, and require the least amount of thought on your part in a stressful situation, its a common target, and a natural response.
head shots usually work better too, be it the jaw, temple, or eyes...doesnt matter just hit em.
if you DO have time to see it coming and think about the technique...then i might do something else..but if its somewhat sudden(which it probably will be) a good ol fashioned knuckle sandwich work about every time.
now you will all say what if you dont hit that pressure point....well if you miss that point you still crack them in the jaw...but if you just go for the jaw in general youll never hit the pointat the correct angle. (thats why we PRACTICE)

but in general, i would say it dont matter much...JUST HIT EM!!!!! im all about pre-emptive strikes, if you can tell someone is gonna attack you..why wait...just knock the crap out of em and go home safe.
Posted by: kempo_jujitsu

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 05:04 AM

....and if you get the ko with the pressure points....the opponent will be no worse for the wear...he will wake up in about 20 minutes, nauseated and with a terrible headache...but not injured, and certainly not dead. (hope he doesnt crack his skull on the way down though lol)
so no worries of getting arrested for brutality or murder [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Ender

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 07:41 AM

Mr. V, Kempo_Jujutsu...

You both make very solid points. I have been swayed.

Gotta get me a heavier bag though!
Posted by: MAGon

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 09:48 AM

Mr. V, IMHO, you are right on! Given the scenario in the thread, I'd generally react, no, more correctly, TRY to react (The "Fog of War", the "Fog of War"!!!) as you recommend. My only qualifier would be that, if at all possible, my first blow would be to the nose, followed by as many as I could get off to the jaw. I like the disorienting effect the shock of the blow combined with the sharp pain and blurred vision brought on by tearing has. But if this isn't possible... THE JAW!!!
Sorry, Ender, but I believe Mr. V is also right in that substituting a rib shot for one to the jaw is a poor trade. I have several times been on both ends (Striker and strikee) of broken ribs. As Mr. V said, it was only AFTER the encounter, when the adrenaline wore off, that the effect on the ribs was felt.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 09:58 AM

I have to agree on the rib thing too.
I once had two broken ribs and a cracked sternum in a competition (not deliberatte, I went in the same time as my opponent). I knew I had been hit, but won that fight and two more.
I didn't realise anything was broken until several days later.

On the other hand, I have been knocked out by one hit to the jaw on two occasions. Nothing was broken or even dislocated, but it did stop me!
Sharon
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 10:03 AM

It was posted above to "never rely on one technique". This is a great statement!
I would try and set the attacker up so I could provide an opening where I could get off an efficient attack. Where the opening is presented is where I would aim my strike, hopefully getting a KO from this strike. If the attacker is not KO'd but is stunned from the blow, this is where you move in a THROW! Toss that b@st@rd on his head. Throws can be very disruptive to an attackers intention.
Posted by: Big Bear

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 04:46 PM

Great replies folks. Cheers and keep them coming!!!

Big Bear
Posted by: madhag

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 05:12 PM

here's my formulated response to the given scenario:
1) take a deep breath to subside my nervousness
2) start singing the national anthem
3) forget a strike to the jaw or headbutt- reach out with my two hands, grab his ears, pull his head down fast with my knee coming up to meet his face. Smash. repeat.
4) klingon death grip
5) finish my singing
6) repeat from step 1 and rinse

Disclaimer: In reality, training hard and practice are within my control at this point. The above instructions may be modified or deleted at my discretion, at any time, in accordance to actual scenario. No animals were injured or killed.

[This message has been edited by madhag (edited 07-30-2003).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 06:40 PM

Judderman,
I was surprised to read that you think a strike to the throat would be insufficient to stop an attacker unless it was hard enough to kill him.

A few years ago, I was hit semi contact in the throat in a sparring accident. It certainly stopped me! My throat started to swell immediately and it panicked me in a way no punch on the nose or any strangle has ever done.
What does everyone else think?
Sharon
Posted by: ninja-raiden

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 06:53 PM

I work a lot on self control, but I wouldn't use a throat strike unless I was absolutely positive it were life or death.

I just wouldn't wanna take the risk of killing someone.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: self defense - 07/30/03 09:00 PM

I keep seeing posts about throat strikes. I don't know about you guys, but I don't put a lot of emphasis on those or other "deadly" strikes. That isn't so much because I don't think that they work, but because I wouldn't allow myself to think that they would work against an experienced fighter. Speaking for myself, I know to keep my chin down when trading. The average person with a WEEK of boxing would know that same thing.

I just have to train for the smarter, well trained fighter. Against those guys, throat shots (and the other "deadly" strikes) just aren't going to work.

-John
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: self defense - 07/31/03 02:52 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ninja-raiden:
Because of the vigerous weight training and boxing I do, I understand the power behind a jaw punch. I would not use it if in a situation where someone is throwing strikes, but it'd be perfect for the situation described.

"Ninja i hope this doesn't offend but rather than risking a head but that in my opinion means you to sacrafice speed for power, why not try to break their nose with a punch or a palm heel? It may not have the same power but its so much faster than a head butt that could be telegraphed."

Because if performed well, a good headbutt would not only do the job, but also have the element of surprise that a punch or palm heel to the nose wouldn't have.

Of course though, I would use common sense before self defense. Depending on the attacker's size and energy level, I would try to just submission him with some basic hapkido defenses.
[/QUOTE]

Use the jaw as a lever to send an blow to the nerve centers in the brain that'll take him out. Another technique that is very effective is a backhand slap to the temple. If you don't knock him out, you'll make him dizzy, but be careful it can also kill him if you use too much force.