MT/MMA knee strike.

Posted by: MAGon

MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/01/13 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: "MAGon"
Having only Karate as a background for striking, I learned to do knee strikes in the manner taught by this art. At least in the styles I've been exposed to, there are only two knee strike techniques, front and roundhouse. Variations are limited only by the Karate-ka's imagination, but they're all arguably variations of these.
Now, I wont get into the front knee strike, as by and large all striking arts that include it in their arsenal roughly do it the same way. The roundhouse knee strike, though, is a different story.
As I was taught to do it, the Karate roundhouse knee strike is performed almost exactly as 66% of a roundhouse kick, the missing 33% being the extension of the lower leg to strike with the foot. I.e.: The strike is chambered by bringing the leg up more or less into the "dog peeing" ( wink ) position. The strike comes from simultaneously pivoting the body inboard, using hip rotation, while bringing in the knee to the body's centerline by using the muscles of the thigh and abdomen. So some large, strong muscles are utilized to power the strike. Among favored targets are the sides of the opponent's body.
So all of the above was to get to this point: I've been intrigued for some time by a knee strike I've seen used in matches by Muay Thai and MMA fighters. Not ever having set foot in an MT or MMA gym, I can only go by what I've seen as to how it's meant to be executed. But it seems that the proper form is to bring the knee up close to the opponent's body, similar to chambering the leg for a front kick. More or less at the apex of the movement, the knee is brought to the strike by pivoting the body inwards and using the adductor muscles of the thighs to bring the knee to the centerline of the body, striking the sides of the opponent'. What's different about this technique compared to the Karate roundhouse knee strike is that the knee and thigh are held vertically while hitting, instead of being brought in more/less horizontally or obliquely. It seems to me that this MT/MMA technique is powered in the main by comparatively smaller, weaker muscles and that its power suffers in consequence (see the attached vid.).



So here's where I'd like to get y'all's opinion: Is there an advantage so solid to striking an opponent's sides a la MT/MMA that it compensates for the substantially less powerful resulting blow, as compared to the Karate roundhouse knee? Thoughts?
Posted by: cxt

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/02/13 12:17 PM


Maybe its a matter of function......maybe.

Perhaps the MMA style knee strike--as described above-is more in the manner of "softening up" the guy. Most of the MMA/MT are in seriously hard condition and single knee is unlikely to work. But hit them with it a lot and the effects are compounded.

Maybe its a target of opportunity--you hit what's available?

Maybe its a question of timing? I've seen guys run right into a jab and cause themselves more damage than the jab alone.

Good question!

Sorry I don't have better thoughts right now. Still pretty early here. smile
Posted by: MAGon

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/02/13 02:52 PM

Hi, cxt.
Yes to all you wrote. But what I'm noticing is that you get the same from the Karate knee strike, but with more power. There's a slight advantage for the MT/MMA technique in a body to body clinch. But even that's negated by being able to manhandle the opponent to where you want him, then using a roundhouse knee.
So I'm still left wondering why sacrifice the power?
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/03/13 05:30 AM

For me Knee strike is a finishing technique.

Coming from both Muay Thai and Ashihara, the knee is indeed one of the most used in our arsonary of weapons.

a well trained knee and well placed knee has been tested as power ratio being similar to be hit by a car traveling a 40 mile per hour.

anywhere in kata, a raised leg is either a knee strike or a shin block or both
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/03/13 08:21 AM

Possibly it might be to do with speed; it might be quicker to throw a series of knees MT/MMA style than to throw a series of knees Karate style. As you say, you can't count on a single knee doing the trick, so perhaps it might be more with the idea of a cumulative effect?? I don't know for sure. Do you have a video example of karate knee?
Posted by: MAGon

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/03/13 08:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Coming from both Muay Thai and Ashihara, the knee is indeed one of the most used in our arsonary of weapons.


Hi, Ken.
I knew about Ashihara, not about MT. So you're a good source to address my question to: Why does MT sacrifice the power of the Karate roundhouse knee strike in favor of the weaker technique shown on the vid.?
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/04/13 06:00 AM

That Technique which is more of a "Side bump" knee strike is quite an effective technique if done properly, I've bruised/cracked ribs with this technique in competition before, you aim for the floating ribs.

I think it looks weak due to the instructor not wanting to hurt his partner but it does really hurt if done properly at full speed and power.

when training in Muay thai many Camps don't train full contact all the time to prevent injury to its fighters etc.

Its only in preparation for a fight does the fighter get a "feel" of full contact to prepare them so its not a shock to get hit hard and prevent "freeze"
Posted by: MAGon

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/04/13 01:52 PM

Yeah, but my point being that you can get the same from the Karate roundhouse knee strike, with (worst case) the same power or much more, seeing as the Karate technique is powered by bigger, stronger muscles. So why do it as seen in the vid.?
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/08/13 06:35 AM

Originally Posted By: MAGon
Yeah, but my point being that you can get the same from the Karate roundhouse knee strike, with (worst case) the same power or much more, seeing as the Karate technique is powered by bigger, stronger muscles. So why do it as seen in the vid.?


Karate as we know it today is not as it was in Okinawa or the likes. It has become a melting pot of Techniques from various influxes of different martial arts from different countries. Originally there were no kicks higher than the waist in Okinawa Te.

Now I agree to a point that the round knee is a good technique but this is for the ring and a round knee in this instance puts you off balance and more prone to a foot sweep that are commonly used in the ring with Muay Thai matches etc
Posted by: MAGon

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/08/13 11:42 AM

OK. But then the same drawback is there for the MT knee strike. If you get caught with the leg up, or it's trapped, you can get swept. So again I have to wonder why, if all else is more or less equal, why do without the added power of the roundhouse knee strike of Karate?
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 07/24/13 04:24 PM

Because the MT version is faster and less likely to get you tripped up or put off balance. Yes any time you lift your leg you make that a possibility but some techniques do it more than others. In an mma fight or Thai boxing match you have time to wear them down. It's not all about power and hitting the right spot at the right time is more important than raw power.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: MT/MMA knee strike. - 08/02/13 06:01 PM

Hey, Stormdragon!

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Because the MT version is faster and less likely to get you tripped up or put off balance.


How do you figger? The MT version's execution describes a right angle. I.e.: First it comes up, then it traverses to the centerline. The front knee strike moves up and in simultaneously in an oblique line. The roundhouse moves up and in in a curved, rising, simultaneous movement. These last two are faster than the two-step trajectory of the MT technique.
As to getting tripped or off balanced, in the MT knee strike the leg hangs more or less at right angle to the thigh. There's a gap between the thigh and the leg. In the front and roundhouse versions, the leg is brought in tight against the thigh. The gap and the added slowness of the MT version makes for greater ease of it being scoop-blocked, the fighter then being unbalanced and swept/leg-reaped.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
In an mma fight or Thai boxing match you have time to wear them down. It's not all about power and hitting the right spot at the right time is more important than raw power.


OK, but in any fight (particularly in the street) you ideally want the opponent down and out as quickly as possible. And the more power you can get into effective techniques, the more probably you'll succeed. So why not opt for the stronger, faster effective strikes?
BTW, I've been using the term "Karate knee strikes" just as a convenient way to differentiate the front knee strike as well as the roundhouse variant. In fact, it's a misnomer as they're not exclusive to Karate. Both the front and roundhouse are pretty much universal to all hand-and-foot fighting arts, including MT/MMA. So it needs to be borne in mind that this makes it pretty evident that MT/MMA doesn't consider the front and roundhouse versions ineffective. So why go bother with this third, weaker variant?