non-mystical discussion of chi/qi

Chi (qi) comes up regularly in the forums, and as regularly is ascribed to woolly-minded mysticism.

OK, I prefer physical explanations for events and perceptions to mystical power ones. However, I don't know if the phenomena ascribed to chi/qi have been specifically addressed by kinesiologists. I would be extremely interested to hear about physiological analyses of things like the following --

If you look at two kicks which have good form as far as knee position, foot position, speed etc., one can still have more... presence. You can see this even in air kicks. Same with almost any move. What the heck is it that you notice? Ascribing it to chi doesn't explain it, just gives it a name.

Something similar can be seen with two public speakers. Even when you take account of small differences in mannerism and speech pattern, the kind of magnetism that some speakers have is amazing. And, they don't have it all the time. They know when they're "on", and so does their audience.

A psychologist named Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi describes a state of consciousness called flow, which is basically a state of focus and absorption. This may be related to what I'm talking about, but it's internal, and I'm not sure it would be visible to others in a kick!

So, who can talk about these very noticeable phenomena in a way that makes physical and psychological sense?

That mental state of "flow" may be the closest thing I can think of to what is commonly thought of as chi/ki. There have been studies that show that positive thinking and imagery can help create that mental state.

A lot of the other stuff attributed to chi/ki (no touch KO's, etc) seems like baloney to me.

Matt said
"A lot of the other stuff attributed to chi/ki (no touch KO's, etc) seems like baloney to me."
Yes, me too.

"That mental state of "flow" may be the closest thing I can think of to what is commonly thought of as chi/ki."

Yes, but how the internal state of flow translates to a more powerful kick or speech is still an interesting question. Does flow correlate with better timing? Reflect confidence? Ensure that all the little "sub-routines" in a movement are working well together as a unit? Saying it's due to "flow" is the same as saying it's "chi". New name, same question :-)

The "unbendable arm" is nothing more than physiology. When the hand is in a fist the abductor muscles are working allowing the arm to bend. When the hand is open and the fingers splayed the extensor muscles are working and it is stronger.

Duane

The best non-mystical explanation of internal strength I've ever heard was from Tim Cartmell.

He talked about an Olympic Weightlifting clean to explain his analogy. In the clean phase (where the bar is lifted from the ground to the shoulders in one fast movement) the nervous system fires off twitch fibres, the muscles engage and the weight is lifted (Figure A). This can be described as muscular strength

Figure A



Once the weight is lifted to the shoulders, the skeletal system supports the weight. In effect the weight is pushing down on the body but the body supports it through sound body mechanics and correct structure(Figure B). Although not shown in the picture below in Olympic Weightlifitng I've seen lifters support the bar without even having their hands on it. They are using proper posture along their spine and lower body to support the weight pushing down on them. This can be referred to as postural strength



A lot of people, even those involved with martial arts, sometimes think they are "balanced" or are using effective body mechanics when nothing could be further from the truth. My old Taijiquan teacher said he use to sit in deep strong Shotokan stances while doing Karate, but it wasn't until a Taiji teacher started shoving him about while he was in those postures he realized how poor his body mechanics were.

Postural strength is something that has to be worked on in the same way muscular strength has to be worked on. Something I had to do to help develop my postural strength was open up my vertebrae through a series of posture and stretching exercises. When people talk about Qi/chi/ki I don't think of it as an actual thing. For me they are often talking about postural strength (or the absence thereof).

Do people here feel that there is a difference between what I would call static postural balance and dynamic (moving) balance? I have seen people that were difficult to move in a posture, but not nearly as strong in movement, and vice versa.

Really interesting. So PW, would it be your assertion that a punch which showed "chi" was backed by more postural strength than one which did not? SOmetimes you can throw 10 punches, and one has superior snap and force (better "chi", a previous master of mine used to say). Has your posture subtly changed to allow this I wonder?

When you crack a whip, it snaps. If you were to just swing it, it would not have the same effect. As with a strike using ki, the more you relax, the better it works. Whatever is happening, whether you call it ki or not, there is a difference. So, if calling the method ki(or chi), what is the problem? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. If you've ever had your heart broken or lost a love, you felt pain, yet you cannot see love.

I've witnessed that too Matt. Certain people can hold a stance and seem stable, but when they move it all goes to blazes. The best people I've seen for moving balance, as you call it, are a couple of really good Taijiquan and BaguaZhang folks, and some really experienced grapplers. Their training methods teach good posture and whether by cultivation (practicing stretching and exercises to improve body mechanics and posture) or something inherent in the practice (the posture/body mechanics improve by simply doing the art), they can generate/absorb force through good use of posture/mechanics while moving.



I'd say it certainly plays a part in it, hope. If your body mechanics slightly alter with each punch (when the hand returns from punching), it is entirely possiible your skeletal system has altered slightly from when you first punched, even if it is subtlely. Shifts in body mechanics in between punches may certainly have an impact (pardon the pun!) on the force the punch generates.



I understand what you are saying, but I have to say "relaxation" isn't any use without proper posture and sound body mechanics. Indeed I've seen what little good posture people have in MA class go to blazes because their instructor tells them to "relax", so the slump their shoulders and try to strike something again. Proper relaxation is important, but being taught how to relax (and yes it is possible) the body in order to adjust posture, breathing and improve the function of the body is critical.

Found the clip from Tim Cartmell. Better if I let the master do the talking! For those who don't know, Tim spent a lot of his life in China/Taiwan learning Neijia arts. He returned to the USA and later earnt his black belt in BJJ. He has produced some great material on martial arts, particularly Chinese "internal" arts.

In the below clip he talks about Sun Taijiquan, and highlights the importance of structure and demonstrates some postural testing. Note the absence of describing what is happening as "Qi". Other teachers may describe what they are seeing as "Qi". In fact thinking back, whenever I've heard someone talk about "chi" or "ki" (usually in Aikido) it usually translated as "I don't have any idea why this works or the physics behind it, so I'm calling it Chi/ki so I'll appear knowledgeable by answering your question without answering it."

In other words, a lot of people use the term Qi/Chi/Ki as a coverall to hide their ignorance of physical sciences. My experience, anyway.

I agree generally, but it's not as if vague mention of "structure" or posture means that much more than saying 'qi'. Either someone can do something and can explain it in a way to teach it or not.



Most of us couldn't describe the exact physics of techniques we can do, we have some helpful visualization tools and analogies, but they don't describe physical reality any more than the term 'qi' does.

Want an example?

"Use your hips"..this is not a physical description of anything real, it's safe to say if you are moving at all you are using your hips somehow, yet this is a very common way of geting someone to do a technique better. The only difference is that unlike the ki/qi thing, it doesn't appeal to people suckered by mysticism, but "use your ki" and "use your hips" are both grossly inaccurate, and not descriptions of physical reality.

Not to say I enjoy 'ki' talk, I usually shy away from martial artists who use that sort of language, I just don't think it's accurate to pretend other descriptions are somehow really accurate just because they use terminology more familiar to westerners.

That's a great point Zach. Certainly I'd hold my hands up and say I'm not even close to being an expert on the physics of the human body.

That said, I find when people talk about posture I understand that they are referring to the shape of the body. And I have seen/experienced the difference posture can make in martial arts.


Terms like posture and structure don't nearly convey the complexities of what's going on in the human body when it moves, but for me it at leasts highlights things I should be more aware of and things I might want to study more to learn about. I mean I've had detailed explanations given to me about body mechanics and how they work and I come away thinking " I must read up on human anatomy and how the body works".

When I've heard talk about chi/ki it tends to point towards a more vague, mystical, non-scientific route of enquiry that isn't very helpful in my expereince.

Whatever my limitations in scientific parlance I'd still attempt to use language of that nature as for me it points in a direction that might help eventual discovery of what's going on.

I think that sometimes people use 'ki words' for the same reason, to describe something that you can't really fully map out with language.

I have learned stuff in Karate from people who actually used the term "Tanden"..while I've heard some westerners translate and use this term as "center of gravity", it actually is the same as the Chinese word Dan Tian..which is definitely a word which is linked traditionally to the concept of Ki. Nonetheless, the people using the term weren't using it in a mystical fashion, it was just a way to give you a descriptor of where to move from, they weren't telling you you could defy gravity or shoot Chi balls with it.

Depending on the culture and background of the people involved, language like that doesn't always mean someone is a mystical, Chi-ball throwing nut. I feel like many times people with no exposure to good training where these words might get used assume that anyone who ever uses them is crazy or a fraud, IMO that is not correct, and again many of the people I see making the complaints have grossly inaccurate pictures of physics themselves, I can't count the number of inane Karate articles i've seen on "power generation" that are just as much fantasy as Ki, just using western terms.

So yeah, sometimes that kind of language indicates BS and fraud, other times it's simply the language someone was trained with, and there is no intent to be particularly mystical.

Whether it's worth using the term, or more appropriate to use modern terms is another question..I lean towards modern anatomical terms myself.



It's not really that a given person is limited in scientific terms..it's really more about the fact that literal physical descriptions of martial movement would be ridiculously complex if you tried to actually describe them fully in terms of kinesiology, physics, physiology. So really the question is just what language can get people do do them right, and understand them intuitively. UNless of course you are just interested academically.

Personally if "Ki" is being used that way it doesn't really bother if it's no more or less accurate than other terminology. Where the problem exists is people claiming this "Ki" is something removed from physical movement, or that it somehow can make up for or defy physics. It may seem cheesy, but personally I make a distinction between someone who just uses the term, however imperfect, and someone who claims that what they are doing functions outside the normal bounds of physical reality.

This is probably the most enlightening discussion of qi that I've heard up to now.

Zach said "So really the question is just what language can get people do do them right, and understand them intuitively."

This sounds very sensible to me (that's what I want to do), and posture actually has some potential in this direction (unlike qi, it has a specific physical definition -- the position of body parts with respect to each other -- and parameters). If postural fixes (back position, height of stance, etc etc) make a lot of difference, the specific factors can be isolated, taught, felt and understood; maybe they need more attention than is generally paid to them when teaching new moves.

It might also be interesting for the academic kinesiologists to have a look, even if it is ridiculously complicated. If they have a better outline of process, this would lead to the ability to predict and utilize new ways of helping people to do things right and understand them intuitively.

Well said, Zach.

“Dr. Bjorn Nordenstrom has proven that ion currents flow through the body in preferential ion conductance pathways (PICPs) that are very similar to the Chinese Qi channels. These so called pathways make up a vascular-interstitial closed circuit (VICC) where energy flows in the mineral infused fluids in the vessels, connective tissue and extracellular (interstitial) spaces. This work is consistent with Albert Szent-Gyorgyi who found that an interactive conductance system of internal water and protein crystal lattice form an "energy transmission continua."

In recent studies by the National Academy of Science a stimulus from an acupuncture point on one meridian created an effect in the area of the brain associated with sight confirming the ancient Chinese medical theory of eyes and sight. A group at the University of California and several universities in Korea found that this signal to the brain gets there faster than through the usual neurological circuitry suggesting that a wave is created through the internal matrix (perhaps Nordenstrom's PICP) to deliver the stimulus to the brain. “

The Acupuncture Meridians perhaps? For more, see his blog at: http://integral96.wordpress.com/feed/

'Piezoelectric Effect Basics

A piezoelectric substance is one that produces an electric charge when a mechanical stress is applied (the substance is squeezed or stretched). Conversely, a mechanical deformation (the substance shrinks or expands) is produced when an electric field is applied.'

From: http://www.aurelienr.com/electronique/piezo/piezo.pdf

An area that has Qi flowing into it, by one trained in internal Iron Shirt; can have the area strengthened by this force running through it. This is a piezoelectric effect.

A similar analogy, is trying to bend a fire hose while water is running through it; you cannot.

‘We must look at what modern Western science has discovered about bioelectromagnetic energy. Many bioelectricity-related reports have been published, and frequently the results are closely related to what is experienced in Chinese Qigong training and medical science.

For example, during the electrophysiological research of the 1960's, several investigators discovered that bones are piezoelectric; that is, when they are stressed, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy in the form of electric current. This might explain one of the practices of Marrow Washing Qigong in which the stress on the bones and muscles is increased in certain ways to increase the Qi circulation.

It is understood now that the human body is constructed of many different electrically conductive materials, and that it forms a living electromagnetic field and circuit. Electromagnetic energy is continuously being generated in the human body through the biochemical reaction in food and air assimilation, and circulated by the electromotive forces (EMF) generated within the body.’

Above from, A Modern Definition of Chi, by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, August 2nd, 2011

There are many multiple crystalline structures in the body, one of the more prominent being the bones. Other important crystal structure is found in the lymphatic system in the body and certain glands in the brain. When a crystal is subjected to electric current, it vibrates and produces RF (radio frequency) and in some circumstances, electromagnetic fields. This effect is called the piezoelectric effect.

In qigong, you activate the mitochondria of each cell, thereby guiding their electric current. Electric currents are affected by increases and decreases in current by outside magnetic influences on them, and all magnetic fields no matter how strong can be influenced by the smallest oscillating magnetic field. Qigong flowing energy turns on these mitochondria, adding to the influence of the natural magnetic field of the earth. When you are able to channel it through your bones to produce electricity, you feed your mitochondria with energy that can be turned from electrical to chemical state, such that you can use Qi to feed your body and sustain you without food.

Internal strikes originate a vibration that is guided into the opponent. This will penetrate rather than be concentrated on the surface target area, and is what is meant by striking your opponent with the ground.

More on this at: Kou Yu Chang & Iron Shirt

Qi Gong healing master Angela Yan's exceptional work with patient speaking of their results; and demonstrations:
http://www.youtube.com/kungfuusabuff.../1/d7Fqsl7VWqI .

I explain a method where you can feel Qi for yourself, using a method called ‘Prayer Hands Qigong’ on Qigong Masters Radio:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/qigongmasters/2011/05/03/interview-with-greg-hayes

This involves a number of symmetric moves with your hands held with their palms facing each other; and fingertips pointed up.

I explained this impromptu, and blind; and the host Lama Tantrapa felt it. I am not sure how many of the average 40,000 listeners also felt it.

When I demonstrate ‘Prayer Hands Qigong’ to people in person; all feel some effects.

Past shows can be downloaded for free. It includes the world-class experts, such as Yang Jwing-Ming, Bruce Kumar Frantzis, as well as Al Dacascos, Mantak Chia, Erle Montaigue, and other well-known Qigong masters.

One can also feel non-touching effects when holding magnets that are charged with the same pole. Although this is not Qi; it gives one a similar feel.

I studied with the world famous healer, the late Mildred Jackson N.D, author of the Handbook of Alternatives to Chemical Medicines, who was known internationally for her cures of the incurable using laying on of the hands, herbs, and/or diet.

More at: What is Qi?

I will post more on this, but I have rambled enough for a bite size chunk here.

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"Chi (qi) comes up regularly in the forums, and as regularly is ascribed to woolly-minded mysticism.

OK, I prefer physical explanations for events and perceptions to mystical power ones. However, I don't know if the phenomena ascribed to chi/qi have been specifically addressed by kinesiologists. I would be extremely interested to hear about physiological analyses of things like the following --"

Qi has been described as a life force;
1)when you are low in Qi(Chi,Ki,Prajna, you are weaker more
tired and prone to getting sick;
2)when you are high in Qi, you are more energetic, resilient
and need less sleep;
3)no Qi means your dead.

Is this movement?

Regarding,
" think that sometimes people use 'ki words' for the same reason, to describe something that you can't really fully map out with language."

This might well be the case for some people; I will not attempt to speak for them.

When I use any of, the words Qi/Chi/Ki, I am using the terms that are part of its development, practice, and most effective users; Chinese Traditional Martial Arts, and Chinese Traditional Internal Medicine.

Why would you use Spanish to describe a French food preparation?

Although there is some merit in approximating the term through translation, much of the essence is lost.

An analogy in mathematics, is using the area of progressive rectangular steps underneath a curved line to measure the area.
You will get close, and the more steps you use, the more accurate, but you will never be exact!

You need differential calculus, and slope theory to get the concept.

Could you describe Chess strategy in the terms of Checkers? Maybe a little, but you would miss out on a lot.

Regarding:
"It might also be interesting for the academic kinesiologists to have a look, even if it is ridiculously complicated. If they have a better outline of process, this would lead to the ability to predict and utilize new ways of helping people to do things right and understand them intuitively."

An area that I found helpful, were the wave action studies of water that were done by physicists using kinematic wave theory.

One of the models used was an open faced tank of water,
with a clear window on one of the sides of the tank,
and a wave propagation machine would create a wave traveling the length of the water vat.

Some of the Qigong I use is based on and solely upon;
Shaolin Buddhist meditation about the concepts/essences of water except that of wetness.

Consider that out bodies are over 80% water.

An Internal Martial concept of energy transferring is having one leg full, and the other empty; such as in:
Cat stance,
T-Stance or
San Ti.

Usually the rear leg is the one that is the fullest.

I am full of what? (hah, hah)

Water.

Is this the same as weight; not quite.

Consider a tub of water:
lean the tub and yes more weight does go to one end BUT;
there is a flow of kinetic energy affecting the potential energy of the force traveling toward the end of the tub FACTORED into the calculation.

Without Qi theory, it would be measuring a hardball thrown, and a screwball of equal size and weight, that had a core of water.

The would look the same.

Excellent de-mystification.

Much of how I was trained, and how I train others, does not require any words.

When one goes through the same shared-lived-experience as the sifu, when they are learning Qigong; they can feel within themselves and compare, adjusting accordingly.

Although I am not reponding to this directly, I think you will see that it is related.

Internal punching, sending yor Qi root into the ground; is another word for having a low center of gravity.

Sea men, commercial fisherman, and sailors use something called 'sea legs' whil on top of the water in a boat.

When they are on land, and hit you, the use their weight and grounding.

This sinking of Qi, is analagous to a keel and a sail boats rigging.

This is detailed at my Free Online Masters Course

This is also regarding: "
This sounds very sensible to me (that's what I want to do), and posture actually has some potential in this direction (unlike qi, it has a specific physical definition -- the position of body parts with respect to each other -- and parameters). If postural fixes (back position, height of stance, etc etc) make a lot of difference, the specific factors can be isolated, taught, felt and understood; maybe they need more attention than is generally paid to them when teaching new moves."