How effective are joint locks in civilian defence?

Posted by: Prizewriter

How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/07/11 02:51 PM

This is a topic I had a conversation about while working through some Gracie Jiu Jitsu with a training partner. I've had various sorts of joint locks applied to me in Aikido, Judo, BJJ and even in a Wado Ryi Karate class.

I understand the application for someone like a police officer or someone working as security in a pub/bar using them to restrain or control someone.

Do joint locks translate well over in to civilian physical protection though? When compared with the following, how useful do you consider joint locks to be:

- Knocking an attacker down or knocking them out
- Hitting an attacker to stun or wind them so they have difficulty functioning
- (If on the ground) Choking an attacker
- (If on the ground) Pinning an attacker

I gave two variations on what a person can do on the ground (it goes without saying the goal should be to get up as soon as possible) because I know people will say you can use an arm lock to control someone on the ground and it may not be appropriate to choke them. For example, you need to control a drunken friend just as they are about to do something stupid. It may be more appropriate to pin on the ground until the cool down rather than choke them out!


Outside of combat sports and law enforcement/security, how useful to you consider joint locks to be?
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/07/11 08:48 PM

I'd argue they are not very reliable...just my own bias but I think if you are looking at what is reliable and what is not for physical defense, escape, evasion, and percussion should be the priority.

Sure you could try to set one up on the ground, surely though if you are training with self defense in mind, you do not want to spend any time at all on the ground if it's avoidable..thus the only place you would apply on on the ground is if it was just completely 'given' to you. Else, you'd want to grapple with the goal of getting up ASAP.

The same problem exists with pins and chokes also, any of these things are time dependent, and for the most part require the ground to work, which for civilian defense is relatively risky.

Joint destruction might be a different ballgame, but again they are going to be opportunity things, not the most likely things to use..and in the case of these you would certainly not use them against your drunk uncle.


Maybe it's useful here to think about social vs. asocial violence, as i'm guessing these techniques operate wildly differently in those two categories.

http://www.conflictcommunications.com/Socialviolence.htm
Posted by: Shusha

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/08/11 07:53 PM

The thing with joint locks, assuming success (!), with respect to self-defense, comes down to two questions:

How long can I hold him?

What's going to happen if he gets out?

The reason these are effective for law enforcement and bouncers is that back-up is immediately available and the answers are, "long enough" and "he's going to be in a world of trouble".

A woman isolated in a guy's apartment is going to have very different answers. A guy in conflict with a a nasty dude and 3 of his buddies is going to have very different answers. Its situational.
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/08/11 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
I'd argue they are not very reliable...just my own bias but I think if you are looking at what is reliable and what is not for physical defense, escape, evasion, and percussion should be the priority.

Sure you could try to set one up on the ground, surely though if you are training with self defense in mind, you do not want to spend any time at all on the ground if it's avoidable..thus the only place you would apply on on the ground is if it was just completely 'given' to you. Else, you'd want to grapple with the goal of getting up ASAP.

The same problem exists with pins and chokes also, any of these things are time dependent, and for the most part require the ground to work, which for civilian defense is relatively risky.

Joint destruction might be a different ballgame, but again they are going to be opportunity things, not the most likely things to use..and in the case of these you would certainly not use them against your drunk uncle.


Maybe it's useful here to think about social vs. asocial violence, as i'm guessing these techniques operate wildly differently in those two categories.

http://www.conflictcommunications.com/Socialviolence.htm


If you get behind someone and lock on a rear naked choke while stickign a knee in their legs and pulling them up on you the choke works great, a properly applied RNC will put someone out in 6 seconds. The guillotine properly applied works well too from standing. And joint locks are great if you hit first.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/08/11 11:38 PM

Yeah, they work great against one guy when you don't have to worry about anything else, and know the variables of your environment.

And 6 seconds? Yeah...I know they can happen that quickly, but setting them up that quickly usually is not the case. Time dependent techniques. Stuff that works great against a single, known opponent is not necessary the best stuff in other places!

In a one on one fight these techniques are not only good, as evidence by their success in combat sport they are fantastic..however outside of these, their relevance changes.

Whether or not something "works" has to do with what you actually want it to work for, IMO.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/09/11 02:00 PM

I think this boils down to the classic "what if" discussion. The nature of conflict in the civilian world is that it's completely unpredictable.

When you consider the high percentage of domestic violence I could see plenty of scenarios where striking would not be a first option.
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/09/11 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
Yeah, they work great against one guy when you don't have to worry about anything else, and know the variables of your environment.

And 6 seconds? Yeah...I know they can happen that quickly, but setting them up that quickly usually is not the case. Time dependent techniques. Stuff that works great against a single, known opponent is not necessary the best stuff in other places!

In a one on one fight these techniques are not only good, as evidence by their success in combat sport they are fantastic..however outside of these, their relevance changes.

Whether or not something "works" has to do with what you actually want it to work for, IMO.


Be realistic, NOTHING works WELL against multiple attackers. It'll be a bad day for you no matter what. Best thing to do is run or grab a weapon but you're screwed anyway if you try to fight it out. That said yes it depends on the situation, there's a lot of situatiosn where beating the holy hell out of people will just bring you more trouble. Subduing attackers has a place depending on the situation.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/09/11 08:18 PM

It is all situational

I would think LEOs should train better to do this
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/09/11 09:22 PM

I am being realistic..realistically your chances in any encounter that has already gotten physical are much better if you can "stun and run" than trying to tie up with someone and apply a lock or a choke.\

I'm not saying grappling isn't good or anything, i'm saying that in context skills like joint locks and chokes play a smaller part because the whole point is to get away and survive.

That said, knowing how to grapple can help you a ton in knowing how to escape.

Quote:
Subduing attackers has a place depending on the situation.


Sure it does, I don't think that was what he was asking about though, he was asking specifically about civilian defense...usually the goal there is get away, not subdue, capture, or submit someone.
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/09/11 09:53 PM

While you throw something to stun one guy, the others will be most likely jump in. You can't stun them all at once. My first thought is to get hold of a weapon, and/or run.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/09/11 10:43 PM

It IS all situational as Martial Man alluded to. No one response is good for every situation. Probably a good idea to be prepared for everything - including the ability to apply joint locks and chokes (especially chokes).

NOTHING is guaranteed to stop an opponent like a choke (short of a weapon). Practice your chokes.

-John
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/10/11 12:21 AM

There are numerous examples caught on video of people using strikes and evasive footwork to deal with "street" stuff. I have yet to see one of someone successfully defending themselves by applying an RNC...if anyone has a video or example like that, i'd be interested in seeing it.

I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it seems alot less likely tactic in this environment.

Of course no one response is good for every situation, but certain things are definitely more preferable, and likely to work in a given environment than other things.

Honestly this seems like a no brainer to me...Prizewriter didn't ask "should you train these techniques"..I'm guessing we would all answer yes to that. He asked how useful they were likely to be in a civilian defense context.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/10/11 12:31 AM

Quote:
While you throw something to stun one guy, the others will be most likely jump in. You can't stun them all at once


That is not exactly true. Crowd psychology is a very strange thing. I would be willing to bet that if you dispatched one guy quickly, the others might freeze, at least for a beat. I have experience with this personally. While you are hitting one person, the others need to process the situation and that time, be it ever so small, can be used to exploit the situation.

I had an "altercation" where I was severely outnumbered. The confident leader gave me an opening when he raised his arm to point and I delivered 3 middle knuckle punches to his floating rib. He dropped and I turned and hit the guy on my left square with a full power reverse punch dropping him, he didn't even try and block or duck. 2 guys, 4 punches maybe a second or two of time...the group was stunned by the quickness and ferocity of the attack. They weren't thinking, they are 5 of us left, they were thinking about what just happened...I used the same beat of time to get out of there before they jumped on me.

If you don't want to believe my story, then maybe one of the mods can find the video of the kid (young man) in a bar surround by what appeared to be some gang members. He took out 3 of them before they knew what hit them and was halfway out the door before they even began to pursue, much less jump him with their advantage.

The same can happen in reverse. Even good fighters can get jumped and beaten down before they have a chance to react because they are not processed to defend or fight back quite yet. That beat of time is the longest 1 second you can imagine if you are engaged and the opponent is not.

I am not advocating you can fight multiple people at once effectively. If they are coming and committed, you are probably done for. (envision a jailhouse beat down) But if they are a bunch drunk frat boys looking for a fight, they probably are not as committed at first. And while they are likely to pile on, any more committed response or seeing one of their own go down fast will likely take their wind for a beat.

The hardest part about a street fight, is committing to fight. We always talk about avoidance and getting away, and those are the primary goals of course. But you also have to be ready to cross the line between impending danger and combat. And be able to do it in a fully committed way. You have to steal the advantage, especially in a outnumbered or weapon drawn situation. We used to call it big fish, little fish. Your attackers are assuming the big fish role, but you need to become a bigger fish. We also used to say "attack the weapon" meaning if someone pulls a knife on you, your best and likely only chance to win is to attack the attacker. They assume the bigger fish status because they have a weapon. Attacking basically screws with their psychology, changes the situation in an unsuspected way and give you a slight advantage.

If you wait to see if they are serious (and that is a judgement call) you are betting that they have no intention of harming you if you comply. I believe if someone pulls a weapon, you have to assume they will use it, and you need to exploit any advantage you can, and fast. The more you wait, the lower your chances for success.

OK stepping down of my soap box, but hoping that triggers some interesting responses. (in the spirit of not hijacking a thread maybe the mods want to move my post). But it's been quiet here as of late.

Back to OP...as John said, it's situational. And combat outside the gym/dojo should never happen, but we all know that it does and comes in all shapes and sizes. Like I think he was implying, chokes are probably the most useful because they are not governed by pain, or compliance. No matter what you have in your system the brain shuts off without Oxygen. Joint manipulation is very effective in many situations as well, but it's risky. Are you willing to injure someone if they don't cry uncle? Will they attack again if you release them? Choking is like the big brother of knocking someone out, they are incapacitated but likely will suffer no real damage assuming you don't suffocate them.


Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/10/11 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
While you throw something to stun one guy, the others will be most likely jump in. You can't stun them all at once


That is not exactly true. Crowd psychology is a very strange thing. I would be willing to bet that if you dispatched one guy quickly, the others might freeze, at least for a beat. I have experience with this personally. While you are hitting one person, the others need to process the situation and that time, be it ever so small, can be used to exploit the situation.

I had an "altercation" where I was severely outnumbered. The confident leader gave me an opening when he raised his arm to point and I delivered 3 middle knuckle punches to his floating rib. He dropped and I turned and hit the guy on my left square with a full power reverse punch dropping him, he didn't even try and block or duck. 2 guys, 4 punches maybe a second or two of time...the group was stunned by the quickness and ferocity of the attack. They weren't thinking, they are 5 of us left, they were thinking about what just happened...I used the same beat of time to get out of there before they jumped on me.

If you don't want to believe my story, then maybe one of the mods can find the video of the kid (young man) in a bar surround by what appeared to be some gang members. He took out 3 of them before they knew what hit them and was halfway out the door before they even began to pursue, much less jump him with their advantage.

The same can happen in reverse. Even good fighters can get jumped and beaten down before they have a chance to react because they are not processed to defend or fight back quite yet. That beat of time is the longest 1 second you can imagine if you are engaged and the opponent is not.

I am not advocating you can fight multiple people at once effectively. If they are coming and committed, you are probably done for. (envision a jailhouse beat down) But if they are a bunch drunk frat boys looking for a fight, they probably are not as committed at first. And while they are likely to pile on, any more committed response or seeing one of their own go down fast will likely take their wind for a beat.

The hardest part about a street fight, is committing to fight. We always talk about avoidance and getting away, and those are the primary goals of course. But you also have to be ready to cross the line between impending danger and combat. And be able to do it in a fully committed way. You have to steal the advantage, especially in a outnumbered or weapon drawn situation. We used to call it big fish, little fish. Your attackers are assuming the big fish role, but you need to become a bigger fish. We also used to say "attack the weapon" meaning if someone pulls a knife on you, your best and likely only chance to win is to attack the attacker. They assume the bigger fish status because they have a weapon. Attacking basically screws with their psychology, changes the situation in an unsuspected way and give you a slight advantage.

If you wait to see if they are serious (and that is a judgement call) you are betting that they have no intention of harming you if you comply. I believe if someone pulls a weapon, you have to assume they will use it, and you need to exploit any advantage you can, and fast. The more you wait, the lower your chances for success.

OK stepping down of my soap box, but hoping that triggers some interesting responses. (in the spirit of not hijacking a thread maybe the mods want to move my post). But it's been quiet here as of late.

Back to OP...as John said, it's situational. And combat outside the gym/dojo should never happen, but we all know that it does and comes in all shapes and sizes. Like I think he was implying, chokes are probably the most useful because they are not governed by pain, or compliance. No matter what you have in your system the brain shuts off without Oxygen. Joint manipulation is very effective in many situations as well, but it's risky. Are you willing to injure someone if they don't cry uncle? Will they attack again if you release them? Choking is like the big brother of knocking someone out, they are incapacitated but likely will suffer no real damage assuming you don't suffocate them.




I don't doubt your story, but it does happen plenty often where they all attack, I've seen it happen that way ocne in my life and several times on video. And if that happens, you're in serious trouble, best thing to do is find a a weapon and use it wildly till you are in a good place to run. I'm not actually saying choking is better then striking in a multiple attacker situation (though it could possibly work to use chokes), I'm just saying that neither gives you really GOOD odds if they do attack like that, it's like dealing with a knife, it's a bad situation no matter what you use. Chances are I wouldn't use any chokes if for some reason I was in such a situation, I'd throw a kick and maybe one or two punches and run if I absolutely HAD to fight with my bare hands only (and I will do anythign to avoid having to fight in a situation like that unarmed anyway), but if it was, say, 2 dudes I think a standing RNC could work well and be a useful barrier to the second guy till the first one is out (which again only takes six seconds once it's locked and if you have a good arm drag you can get there in a hurry). Of course I definitely agree with taking action decisively before they expect it and realize what's happening, whatever your course of action is, suprise, speed, and violence of action is what carries you through a fight before anything else.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/10/11 10:25 PM

The first thing to do, is not be there in the FIRST place
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/10/11 11:20 PM

If this was facebook I owuld like the hell out of that martialman.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/11/11 12:17 AM

Quote:
The first thing to do, is not be there in the FIRST place


"The best way to avoid punch, no be there"

Mr. Miyagi
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/11/11 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
The first thing to do, is not be there in the FIRST place


"The best way to avoid punch, no be there"

Mr. Miyagi


No. Not the "dodge" a punch.

You have to be in the place where such a situation has the largest percentage to unfold

For example, you would least likely get punched at a 11yr old birthday party

vs.

At a pub during the World Championship event of two opposing fans.

Simply, from my decades of observations and experiences, many fights could have been avoidable.

Hence, not be there
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/12/11 12:59 AM

Quote:
No. Not the "dodge" a punch.


Oh you question the wisdom of Miyagi??

He was not saying to dodge the punch, he was saying to not be there as in, not in a fight at all.
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/12/11 07:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Kimo2007
Quote:
No. Not the "dodge" a punch.


Oh you question the wisdom of Miyagi??

He was not saying to dodge the punch, he was saying to not be there as in, not in a fight at all.


I was saying this long before KK
Posted by: duanew

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/13/11 12:43 PM

To quote my karate instructor "Use tuite when you are better, bigger or stronger than your opponent." It works even better if you have two or three on your side. The problem-I can tell when I'm bigger, I can guess when I am stronger but there is only one way to tell if I am better.
As a cop I have used tuite numerous times on single subjects who were bigger and stronger.My job was to take them down, control and cuff. As a civilian why am I holding them? Waiting for the police to arrive? ok Waiting for them to say uncle and give up? ok-if they play by the rules...I wouldn't bet on it.
For those who advocate choking...better check your local laws some juristictions consider it deadly force not what you want to do if you want to stay out of jail-unless they were trying to kill you.

Duane
Posted by: 47MartialMan

Re: How effective are joint locks in civilian defence? - 07/13/11 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: duanew
To quote my karate instructor "Use tuite when you are better, bigger or stronger than your opponent." It works even better if you have two or three on your side. The problem-I can tell when I'm bigger, I can guess when I am stronger but there is only one way to tell if I am better.
As a cop I have used tuite numerous times on single subjects who were bigger and stronger.My job was to take them down, control and cuff. As a civilian why am I holding them? Waiting for the police to arrive? ok Waiting for them to say uncle and give up? ok-if they play by the rules...I wouldn't bet on it.
For those who advocate choking...better check your local laws some juristictions consider it deadly force not what you want to do if you want to stay out of jail-unless they were trying to kill you.

Duane


EXACTLY

I had to go to court as a witness of a bar fight

The guy choking someone got the worse judgement then all of the others whom exchanged strikes (with others) combined!!!!