One reason why dojos have become day-care centers.

Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/18/10 10:09 PM

I don't know if it's true, so I'm throwing this out.

Martial arts schools have become day-care centers because our schools have failed us. So parents have to go elsewhere to get the guidance that their children need.
Posted by: Cord

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 02:31 AM

Martial arts have become child friendly because.

a) Parents have been told that their children need to be engaged in 'contructive' persuits outside of school to prevent them becoming obese, sociopathic, or both.

b) Because the media preys on the public's fear of peadophile's, perverts and kidnappers, so more and more children are not allowed to entertain themselves outside of adult supervision.

c) Parents believe that MA training will somehow increase the safety of their kids in the face of the group mentioned in b)

d) Kids themselves are more MA aware, and want to train it themselves. When I was a child, we had Monkey Magic and later, The Karate Kid. That was it. Now MA feature in everything from Disney cartoons to secret agent Hamsters, whilst the internet means access to adult action movies is easier than pre 90's.

e) Martial arts classes are happy to market themselves on a combination of factors that speak to the fears and motivations within points a) to d) in order to maximise profits.
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 02:48 AM

But this then means schools have failed, because schools are supposed to teach the skills that MA schools are now claiming to teach.

Shouldn't schools be doing this?
Posted by: Shi Ronglang

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 05:18 AM

Not in my opinion. I think the role of schools is to teach knowledge, not values: that would be the parents' job (in my opinion, there again).

Appart maybe from a limited set on which pretty much everyone can agree, I think of schools teaching values (or attempting to do so) as a dangerous case of State-controlled mind-formatting.

But then again, our schools (well, don't know about "yours", but definitely our French ones over here) have failed us in so many ways already (starting with "teaching our kids how to read and write", for instance) that an extra line on their slate will hardly make a difference. grin
Posted by: Cord

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
But this then means schools have failed, because schools are supposed to teach the skills that MA schools are now claiming to teach.

Shouldn't schools be doing this?


eh? so you think that schools should be the source of all outside of school activities? That they should teach a curriculum of self defence? That they should pander to, and profit from parental fear fuelled by media?

I see no element of the points i made that could, or should, be addressed by the scholastic system.

School should teach kids how to read, write, do math, and give them a basic knowledge of the world that they will enter after they graduate. The social skills learned at school are nothing to do with the teachers, they are taught through navigating day to day life existing shoulder to shoulder with 2000 other children 5 days a week.
Posted by: Kathryn

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 08:34 AM

Many traditional-based American dojos do not teach children, especially if they deal with weaponry. I know of one that teaches kobudo to older teens, and I believe there is one iaido dojo out west that teaches children. In Japan it is rather common to teach children iaido, but they probably have the cultural background to understand it at an earlier age.

Kathryn
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 10:47 AM

MA schools teach social skills??? That never happened when I was training.

But I guess it all comes down to what people think schools should do. I mean, I was never on the school teams, so I've been wondering why the school varsity teams got funding from the government but not my master. That didn't seem fair.

Furthermore, there are after-school activities that children have to do, and maybe martial arts should be one of them. And, if some activities like football are paid for by the government, then so should martial arts.
Posted by: Cord

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 01:18 PM

Quote:
But I guess it all comes down to what people think schools should do. I mean, I was never on the school teams, so I've been wondering why the school varsity teams got funding from the government but not my master. That didn't seem fair.


Because the education system in general is funded by the government, and so the activities controlled by it are by extension government funded. Also, the coaches have academic and uniformly recognised qualifications, as well as having had full police checks prior to being employed by the schools.

A martial arts teacher needs none of these things to offer their services, and indeed, it was only 3 years ago that in the US, a TKD instructor was found guilty of grooming and sexually abusing his junior students. Ironic that parents would send their children into danger from a stranger, whilst attempting to help them ward off that very thing.

Quote:
Furthermore, there are after-school activities that children have to do, and maybe martial arts should be one of them. And, if some activities like football are paid for by the government, then so should martial arts.


Not going to happen. For one, the activity is not important- its not what builds the character. It is the commitment and dedication, the patience and drive to succeed, along with the friendships made along the way that do that - from football, to chess. So Martial arts offer no discernable advantage over existing activities on offer.

After all, you said yourself
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
MA schools teach social skills??? That never happened when I was training.


Nuff said.
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 03:04 PM

You know, the MA schools NEVER offered birthday parties, and, since I read military history, I have this image in my mind.

Quote:
The American Armored Division - helped achieve Allied breakout at Normandy in WWII, fought Saddam Hussein's Imperial Guards at the First Gulf War, fought two other Iraqi Armored Divisions in the Second. Now, at a special discount, the soldiers will be available for birthday parties for toddlers and induct them into the Little Lieutenants Program.


You can see how absurd this is. But this is what's happening to MA schools. I don't know if they're filling a market gap that may be better filled by schools, but I don't see why parents would trust trained fighters to teach social skills to children. Where's the link???
Posted by: Ames

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 03:29 PM

Well, I think Cord nailed it with his break down of the reasons parents send their kids to the dojo.

What I would like to add is that, as a parent, I don't see it as a bad thing when a dojo teaches these 'kinder m.a.' programs. The economy really sucks right now pretty much everywhere, and if teaching kids allows an instructor to keep his school running so that he can teach his art to adults, well more power to her/him.

I guess I don't really understand what the problem is here. When my sisters were kids, they took gymnastics. The program was obviously different than the one for adults. Some of the instructors taught both adults and kids. I don't think that any of them felt that the adults were getting subpar training in gymnastics due to kids being at the gym for a few hours a day and the instructors teaching both.

What I'm saying is that martial artists need to lighten up. I think the issues with kids in m.a. is that when you see them leaving the dojo it, to an extant, infantilizes YOUR training (you don't want to be doing something that kids do, you want something hardcore). A good academy can have really great kids program and a really good adults program too.

That all being said, I don't like any place where the training or selling point is one of fear and increasing paranoia...whether that's for kids or adults.
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 03:36 PM

Well, I can understand that a dojo would do anything for money - I'm like that too, quite honestly. But I don't understand why parents would think that trained fighters are also proficient in early childhood education. Why would parents think that???

That's what I don't understand.
Posted by: Cord

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 03:42 PM

TKDfan, your posts are swaying wildly from issue to issue, and you seem very confused as to the distinction between 'schools' as defined by being places of compulsory general education for 3 to 17 year olds, Martial arts classes, as defined by being an environment devoted to the persuit of martial arts, and the Military as defined by being Army, Navy or the Airforce entrusted with the security of their designated country.

The American Armoured Division are probably being made available for children's parties and/or school visits as part of an ongoing domestic PR campaign in a time of war, so as to keep the hearts and minds of the nation from making the huge mistake of coming to dislike the soldiers along with the war they are ordered to fight. Nobody wants another post-vietnam situation, and its important that these brave people are seen for who they are, not what they have been asked to do.

Also, as has always been the case, children idolise those in dangerous jobs, and romanticise their lives, so it would be a really cool thing for a military unit to come to their party. I mean come on, you're 10 years old, you run out for recess, and there for you to talk to are a bunch of dudes in camo and flak jackets, with their rifles and a tank for you to have a look at. How cool is that!!?? cool

Please try and focus your points a little more, as you make it a confusing discussion confused
Posted by: Shi Ronglang

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
But I don't understand why parents would think that trained fighters are also proficient in early childhood education. Why would parents think that???

That's what I don't understand.

Why? First because they've been made to, and second because it used to be the case, if a very long time ago.

In traditional societies, those two roles were indeed combined: a master-at-arms would also be a teacher of life, the rationale being (quite rightly IMHO) that teaching just anyone how to fight without any consideration for what they may use it for would be like handing out loaded guns to any random bypasser.

The association between those two roles is long-gone in most schools, but not in Holywood. An awful lot of people (and parents are people) therefore still imagine a normal martial arts instructor to be a Mr.Miyagi-like figure that's going to turn their kid into a) an awsome fighting machine and b) a wonderful human being.
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 05:04 PM

Cord, that image with the military was just something that popped into my mind. smile

Anyway, back to the main topic.

Quote:
In traditional societies, those two roles were indeed combined: a master-at-arms would also be a teacher of life, the rationale being (quite rightly IMHO) that teaching just anyone how to fight without any consideration for what they may use it for would be like handing out loaded guns to any random bypasser.


Shi Ronglang, that's an interesting point, and I'm wondering if you can point me to any historical references. I'm asking because I have read quite a bit of world history, and I love it to bits, so maybe you can give me some reading material. smile

But, even if that's so, and your point does make sense, the fact is that we are now in a post-industrial society, and a good proportion of us are university educated, or at least literate. This is a far cry from those traditional societies, and so most of us would know that glorified kickboxers are NOT qualified childhood educators.

And, yet, as I write this, the trend is that those educated hockey moms (karate moms?) are sending their children to martial arts classes for instruction. And I don't understand why they think that.
Posted by: Cord

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 05:27 PM

I dont know what you would define as 'traditional society' in an anthropological sense, but I think its worth considering that in the far east, martial arts have developed along side, and as part of, religious teaching.

Buddhism and gung fu, Shinto and koryu arts, the Indian arts like kalipatraya and yogic teachings.

The idea of the arts having a place in the bonding of spirit, mind and body have long been milked by the arts themselves, along with wuxia movies, manga, western culture's perception of the cliches these traditions project.

Despite this, I am not sure that many parents actually send their kids into the local YMCA b-ball court to do karate with Sensei Jones (who works in the bank during the day), seriously thinking that their child will learn anything more than how to do something other than sitting on a couch playing video games all night wink
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 05:33 PM

Quote:
I dont know what you would define as 'traditional society' in an anthropological sense, but I think its worth considering that in the far east, martial arts have developed along side, and as part of, religious teaching.

Buddhism and gung fu, Shinto and koryu arts, the Indian arts like kalipatraya and yogic teachings.


I know that, but I'm not so sure that military leaders were actually the ones to teach social values. I think that scholars and priests were relied upon to do that, especially since they could write and warriors could not.


Quote:
The idea of the arts having a place in the bonding of spirit, mind and body have long been milked by the arts themselves, along with wuxia movies, manga, western culture's perception of the cliches these traditions project.


Maybe it's part of the romanticism, which is why the Klingons in Star Trek have such an appeal.


Quote:
Despite this, I am not sure that many parents actually send their kids into the local YMCA b-ball court to do karate with Sensei Jones (who works in the bank during the day), seriously thinking that their child will learn anything more than how to do something other than sitting on a couch playing video games all night


I don't know either, but that's how the schools market themselves, so their customers must be attracted by that.
Posted by: Shi Ronglang

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 06:05 PM

...which shows they have, to some degree, given up on that themselves. frown

Reminds me of a funny anecdote...
One day in the small country village where I grew up, my father's junior-school teacher (this was in the fourties I believe, my father's 76), who just happened to be looking through the window, notices a kid down in the street who fails to take his hat off in front of an old lady. He quickly climbs down the stairs, exits in the street, slaps the kid and gives him a damn good lecture about manners.
The kid goes and complains to his father, the said father walks up the street to pay the teacher a visit... The father (himself an ex-pupil of that very same teacher, like pretty much everyone in the village) got twice the beating his son had, for failing to teach him good manners. grin

That's what was expected of a teacher (any teacher, were it of piano, football, judo or anything else) in those times. Nowadays, of course, the guy would wind up with two lawsuits on his arms - and so would a MA instructor. Still, some parents keep believeing a sensei will magically achieve the same kind of result without the unpleasant tools... whistle
Posted by: Ames

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 09:18 PM

Quote:
I know that, but I'm not so sure that military leaders were actually the ones to teach social values.


Historically, many combat arts teachers were not military leaders--they were usually people who were very good a skill set and could teach it. Yagyu springs to mind here, as does Liberi (s.p) in the western tradition.

At the same time, in some cultures military learders actually did teach cultural values...Sun Tzu comes to mind, as do Yagyu Moninori, and Minimoto Mushashi.

Quote:
I think that scholars and priests were relied upon to do that, especially since they could write and warriors could not.


Actually in many cultures being a part of the warrior class included several non-martial arts, such as the writing of caligraphy, poetry, music etc. The warrior class were expected to understand the culture they were meant to defend. This is not only true of Easten cultures, but some Western ones as well, images of Achilles playing his lute are found on many ancient Greek vases, a scene from Homer's Iliad, springs to mind. If you read the Flowers of Battle, it's pretty clear that Liberi had a descent understanding of the theology and symbolism of his time. If he did indeed pen this work, then it is self-evident he could read and distill fairly complex knowledge.

Staying focused on the West and moving closer to our time, remember that in the Vicotorian period many combat disciplines were considered "gentlemanly arts", this would include things like English boxing, la boxe francaise ('savate'), la canne, fencing, wrestling, judo, jujutsu etc.

It seems to be only recently that martial arts and martial artists are considered uneducated thugs looking for a fight.

Quote:
Maybe it's part of the romanticism, which is why the Klingons in Star Trek have such an appeal.


I would say there is for many people, an aspect of romanticism, and, in some cases it is Orientilism which leads them to study. But this is too simple a view, I feel. Shi describes the need for commaraderie and this indeed may have a lot to do with it, especially in these times where people rarely even look at one another as they pass on the street. To this I would add the need of many to work out aspects of their 'mythic mind', to go through the 'hero's journey' in some way shape or form. In other words to add a narrative to their lives diffirent from the mainstream consumerist narrative that the Western world currently propagates. There are likely many more reasons.

Quote:
I don't know either, but that's how the schools market themselves, so their customers must be attracted by that.


One thing does not always equal the other. Marketing may say one thing, people may go with that product for another. For example, sometimes people read the back of the book, and that is why they purchase it. Other times a friend suggests it.

(from you previous posts)
Quote:
Well, I can understand that a dojo would do anything for money - I'm like that too, quite honestly.


Just to clarify, this really wasn't what I said at all. I simply noted that there is an economic incentive having a kids martial arts program. This, to me, doesn't always equate to doing "anything for money". Nor does it preclude other factors that may go into the choice to teach kids.



Quote:
But, even if that's so, and your point does make sense, the fact is that we are now in a post-industrial society, and a good proportion of us are university educated, or at least literate. This is a far cry from those traditional societies, and so most of us would know that glorified kickboxers are NOT qualified childhood educators.


Perhaps, for the sake of clarifying your argument, it would be helpful if you defined for us what you mean by "childhood educators". From there we can maybe properly understand why a kickboxer can not be one.
Posted by: TaekwonDoFan

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/19/10 10:40 PM

Excellent reply, Ames. smile

But I'm not sure that warriors were that educated, but I guess it all depends on the time and region you're talking about. I'd like to see any historical studies on this, one way or the other.


Quote:
Perhaps, for the sake of clarifying your argument, it would be helpful if you defined for us what you mean by "childhood educators". From there we can maybe properly understand why a kickboxer can not be one.


A childhood educator would be like a school teacher, trained in child psychology, pedagogy, and physical education.
Posted by: cxt

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/20/10 12:00 PM

TKD

We could have a long drawn out discussion on economics, demographics and business models......but at the end of the day the short answer is "money."

I don't think "the schools" have failed us in regard to what MA training is supposed to do.

I do think many schools have failed to do what they are suppposed to do in terms of education.
Posted by: Cord

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/20/10 12:05 PM

When it comes to human interaction , children are self taught, and have been studying long before they can speak, or start school. All parents have to do is steer them with broad strokes that enforce concepts of right from wrong, and good manners. The rest takes care of itself. Any school, be it official place of education, or extra-curricular hobby such as MA merely have to maintain values constant with those endorsed and promoted by the parents.

If parents are unable, or unwilling to play their part, then by the time school or hobby teachers get hold of the child, it is too late, as early patterns of behaviour and moral logic have been established.

This means that in the rare few instances where a parent looks to outside figures to 'teach' their child a set of values, it is already way too late, and the exposure to undermining factors in the home makes it a dead horse not worth flogging.

Children's primary educators should always be their parents, who teach by example.
Posted by: Kathryn

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/20/10 01:25 PM

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Excellent reply, Ames. smile

But I'm not sure that warriors were that educated, but I guess it all depends on the time and region you're talking about. I'd like to see any historical studies on this, one way or the other.


Quote:
Perhaps, for the sake of clarifying your argument, it would be helpful if you defined for us what you mean by "childhood educators". From there we can maybe properly understand why a kickboxer can not be one.


A childhood educator would be like a school teacher, trained in child psychology, pedagogy, and physical education.


I think this has become conflated because modern society lacks a certain context that existed in the last century. Most, if not all, traditional martial arts in asia developed in an environment where there was an established warrior class and also the need for villagers to protect their village. It took many centuries for anything resembling a police force to develop -- most home and village defense was carried out by the villagers themselves.

In feudal Japan, at least, boy children were given a wooden sword at the age of five, and often girls were given a small defensive knife to wear under their kimono. This was to accustom each to the idea of having to defend themselves. The boys were gradually introduced into the idea of fighting and by 13 were able to join their elders in a battle. The girls would have been introduced to the naginata, and whatever other training they had time or inclination for.

(Seems to me I've typed this out in this forum before? Sorry for the repeat, if so.)

Kathryn
Posted by: hope

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/21/10 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Cord

If parents are unable, or unwilling to play their part, then by the time school or hobby teachers get hold of the child, it is too late, as early patterns of behaviour and moral logic have been established.

This means that in the rare few instances where a parent looks to outside figures to 'teach' their child a set of values, it is already way too late, and the exposure to undermining factors in the home makes it a dead horse not worth flogging.


I disagree that if parents are inadequate it is too late to shape a kid, and that parents are the only possible source of early formative influences, although of course they're important. There's enormous evidence of peer influence on children's behavior from ages as young as 14 months. Same mechanism -- modelling. By the time a kid is adolescent, peer influence is probably more important than parental influence is.

I totally agree that parents can have a huge formative effect, but so can all other social contacts in a kid's life. The level of physical activity in obese kids, for example, is strongly influenced by peers. It is NOT too late by the time a parent looks to outside figures, although of course it would be great if the parents could model everything needed. However, maybe the outside figures the parent should be looking for are ones the same age as the kid -- when a parent observes an MA class, do the other kids show self-control, respect for each other and instructor, etc.? If yes, it's a place that'll influence the kid positively, and that atmosphere can be created by good instructors who know how to develop leaders among kids.
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/27/10 07:41 PM


Quote:
The American Armored Division - helped achieve Allied breakout at Normandy in WWII, fought Saddam Hussein's Imperial Guards at the First Gulf War, fought two other Iraqi Armored Divisions in the Second. Now, at a special discount, the soldiers will be available for birthday parties for toddlers and induct them into the Little Lieutenants Program.


What does the 1st Armored Division have to do with this conversation and what the hell is the little LT's program? Available at birthday parties? What?!?!?!

In any case, MA's are not fudned by the government because those are not school sports. Should the government fund EVERY activity possibly available to children? Judo is part of the school curriculum in Japan because it's their national sport. If kids started playing American football over there should their government fund clubs?
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 10/29/10 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I don't know if it's true, so I'm throwing this out.
Martial arts schools have become day-care centers because our schools have failed us. So parents have to go elsewhere to get the guidance that their children need.

There was a time that many MAs schools simply did not teach children. Why? Well often the schools taught SD & that was simply an adult attraction. Movies like Karate Kid & Ninja Turtles open the door wider for kids. Insurance safety regulations, softening of teaching & concentration on making money led to the quest for drawing in a wider customer base & retaining them. This in turn led to mcdojos, which in turn produced less tough, less challenged, less knowledgeable students who eventually paid for watered down BBs. These BBs opened schools of their own, watered down TMAs even more. MMAs rose to fill in the gap for SD, catered to those that sought SD or more of a challenge, sports wise or otherwise, as many TMAs became much too soft.
Smart business owners, who may have lacked MA toughness & coresponding skill for tough & talented BBs, saw the money to be made by having these fun centers that catered to children. When they looked to expand further, they thought of family programs, ie "the family that kicks together sticks together"! Then they thought of get in shape for mom's programs etc. None of this teaching what martial artists would say is a MA.
While academic schools have failed & slipped across the board, doctors, mental health professionals & educators have suggested & even made referrals to MA schools so junior can help pay attention more, as ADD & ADHD is out of control. They also reccommend MAs to help with discipline & manners.
So there seems to me to be many reasons why dojos have become kiddie day care/baby sitting centers that make sure kids run around a bit in Martial FUN or Take My Dough doing Kiddie Karate Play, etc. So savy business owners give mommies what they want! Everyone is happy = school owner makes money, mommie gets babysitting services coupled with teaching Junior to say Yes Sir! & Thank You Ma Am!, while Junior gets new belts, eventually becoming a BB level who can SHOUT YES SIR!
Posted by: Christie

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 11/11/10 04:14 PM

I don't see anything particularly bad with teaching martial arts to younger children. Kinder programs, Little Ninja programs, or whatever each school calls them keep kids off the computer, out of the house, and actively engaged in something - awesome.

One thing I do take issue with is the coddling that goes on these days however, and I don't mean just in the dojo.

I was disappointed in my martial arts school when one girl who was likely around the age of 8 was passed from yellow belt to orange belt despite the fact that she gave up half way through the test, blatantly turned around and said "no" to the instructor when asked to do something, and when she couldn't break the board on the 18th try and was given a chance to practice the kick with someone and come back and do it again she just refused and sat down. Passing her along to the next belt does what exactly? Way to go instructors for teaching her whining and giving up still gets you ahead in life and way to go parents for enforcing this lesson.
Posted by: Chung Hu

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 11/13/10 07:53 AM

The only problem I see is IF the MA school IS being used as a day-care. Day-cares will try to keep your kid enteratined but if any problem occurs they just call the parents to come pick them up. In MA schools we, as adults, are taught honor and respect for others but the kids are not. That is the real problem, a school won't teach the children any of the disipline for fear their parents will get upset and not pay anymore. When that happens the adult students get exposed to unruly children who think they can act however they want. I understand kids will be kids but inmature horseplay shouldn't happen in the training hall. It can be a real problem if no discipline is taught yet they teach kids how to use the staff and nunchucku. The TKD school I used to belong to did this...it was very irritating. frown

Quote:
I was disappointed in my martial arts school when one girl who was likely around the age of 8 was passed from yellow belt to orange belt despite the fact that she gave up half way through the test, blatantly turned around and said "no" to the instructor when asked to do something, and when she couldn't break the board on the 18th try and was given a chance to practice the kick with someone and come back and do it again she just refused and sat down. Passing her along to the next belt does what exactly? Way to go instructors for teaching her whining and giving up still gets you ahead in life and way to go parents for enforcing this lesson.


Christie unfortunatly this kind of thing happens with the adults to is some schools, I know it did in my TKD school. I was on the so called "judges panel" even though I knew none of the kids and half the adults. It didn't matter what I wrote down on my score card everyone passed to the next level. They call it "graduation" not "testing". It is a sad thing.
Posted by: Christie

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 11/15/10 01:28 PM

Quote:
Christie unfortunatly this kind of thing happens with the adults to is some schools, I know it did in my TKD school. I was on the so called "judges panel" even though I knew none of the kids and half the adults. It didn't matter what I wrote down on my score card everyone passed to the next level. They call it "graduation" not "testing". It is a sad thing.


It really is a sad thing, and it unfortunately isn't just a martial arts problem. It's a problem everywhere - schools, the workplace, sports, etc. Teachers cannot hold students back anymore without the parent's explicit permission. Promotions and pay raises are more often schedule based than merit based. I took a hiatus from martial arts of about 3 years and only recently started doing it again (recommenced back in September). Within three weeks I was invited to "test" for 5th gup. At the end of the test, I was the only student that asked the judge who had my score card to comment on what I could improve on. This was in October. I've been invited to "test" for 4th gup in December - I'm not doing it.
Posted by: E.V.

Re: One reason why dojos have become day-care centers. - 11/15/10 03:46 PM

I agree with a lot that has been said but I think over all it will always remain a case by case type issue. There will always be some instances where thats the case and it's a sad sight and there will always be instances where it's the complete opposite.

Over all I don't believe most schools are simply day care centers, most schools DO tend to teach younger students watered down versions, or simply the basic forms and techniques of the martial art or just basic respect yes sir yes ma'am but it's not a bad thing. Personally a lot of adults training beside children will say "I wish I started that young" because they know their technique, respect, skill, and understanding of martial arts would be more sculpted if they had.

I think what was previously trying to be expressed is good moral fiber can be learned through nemorous ways and is not only entitled to in-school experience from one person teaching. People that have the most effect on our lives are not limited to those with advanced training and degrees. It doesn't mean someone without them is more or less right to influence them then someone with a degree, it means they are just different. My parents only graduated high school does that mean they are less qualified to be parents then someone that went to college and studied psychology? < Point is both ways can work and both ways can fail, who ever the parent trust their child with is an individual decision not right or wrong.

A child participating in any activity with peers that requires, discipline, commitment, and respect for others will instill positive moral fiber this includes many sports or activities in addition to martial arts. Maybe it's wrong of some parents to go around blindly believing every instructor will be Mr. Miyagi but they arent always wrong to think putting their child in an environment thats suppose to be disciplinary, and strengthening will give their kid positive attributes.

Maybe some parents do consider it an alternative to day care not expecting anything more from it then a baby sitter, if they do that makes their motifs wrong. If a school endorses the -leave your kid here then pick them up and I will have taught them nothing- attitude then that makes the school wrong. But really has nothing to do with the public school system. I say the public school system has failed when my 4th grader and all his friends have never missed a day of school and dont have mental problems but still have not learned anything past 2nd grade math.

But like I said this issue will probably always remain a case by case topic and people will have different experiences. With my experience they teach both kids and adults and have 3 separate ranking systems based on age. When I started I started at adult ranks but there where still 8 year olds that could beat me up in my beginning ranks. Martial arts taught to children may be watered down until they are old enough for full force, but it doesn't disregard the fact that they are still being taught the building blocks of a martial art that is deadly, and they will be more effective at applying it then someone starting right away at adult ranks.