Why exactly do we need targets?

I tend to think in the abstract, which is why my friends say my head is in the clouds, so forgive my silly questions sometimes.

In all my years of training in TKD, I have always used a kicking target and/or kicking bag. I understand that a kicking bag is needed to increase hitting power, but I never understood why that's so. I mean, if you kick or punch with the same power, you should, in theory, have the same power as if you had a bag in front of you.

I know the theory is not correct, but can someone explain why?

Do you mean in regards to striking the air at full power should you not wish to invest in a heavy bag?

If so, the main issue is safety. When you hit a punchbag, you transmit the force/energy into it, and this then reduces the risk of the joints hyperextending and muscles pulling from triggering stretch reflex whilst still extending.

There is also to consider that unless your technique actually hits something, the finer things such as fist/wrist alignment, foot position, centre of gravity, are much more difficult to ingrain correctly - you dont want the first kick you ever throw in sparring/competition/whatever, to break your toe and see you falling backwards on your a$$

I think there is an issue of when to introduce target work, especially heavybag, as if beginners get obsessed with it, then footwork, technique, combinations etc tend to go out of the window for just belting the hell out of what is effectively a static, passive oponent. Thus their actual skill can be neglected in persuit of what feels 'satisfying' to do.

Focus mitts/kick paddles are a bit better, as they can be unpredictable, get you moving, and make you think about your relationship with another human when transmitting your strikes.

So, yes, for long term safety, and as a practical tool to condition the body to deal with forces of impact, and a tool for guaging power/technique improvement, I think targets are important and necessary.

Like any equipment, they can cause problems instead of fixing them if used incorrectly.

That sounds about right.

I'm thinking of getting back to TKD - I used to have good technique, but my power hitting wasn't that good. Maybe I should get a bag.

well, the idea is is that technique must precede power, and whilst you will have 'muscle memory' regarding technique, its probably a better plan to go back to class, let an instructor iron out all the bad habits and loss of technique a layoff always ingenders, and then , once back in the swing of things, you could discuss pad/bag work with your instructor as a method of increasing technique power

your mind needs feedback to develope accuracy and power.

same as driving around a corner in your car,everytime you drive around it, your mind learns something new and will automatically make adjustmnents the next time you drive around it.as the a result the cornner gets easier.speed and accuracy will automatically increase.your mind needs to feel the bumps and feel the the car`react.

hitting without a target would be the same asdriving in a simulator,just going through the motions without and feelings for feedback.

this can actually build a false sense of accomplishment,if you try to hit something real hard,you could break your hand due to your body not knowing how to adjust itself for impact.

this is why board breaking was such an important part of the traditional martial arts curriculum.

Cord, I agree with you - technique comes first, then speed and power.

Paul, I haven't been able to decide if board/brick breaking is a good training technique, because, like Bruce Lee, I think there's too much clutter in the martial arts, but you've given me something to think about.

I'd be interested in learning about that famous 3-inch punch.

that 3 inch punch brings together all of you,all your training,your life,understanding your ki energy and how to tap it.your entire life explodes in those 3 inches

point to ponder.

board breaking is a tool , understanding your own anatomy and how cetain muscles contract and relax just by turning your hand before impact.or slight hip rotation that works with your body structure these are thinjgs your mind learns through impact.

ki energy topic is a good one.ill start that thread later.something ive always a alot of interest in.not the no touch knockout garbage either.just understanding how to harness your own power and explode it through your extemities.

Not trying to double post but i typed this on aonther forum



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Re:Is brick and board breaking necessary? - 2010/01/28 11:14
Ok, rickster.

Lets take this another route;

Analogy

I for my work operate heavy equipment,mostly backhoe work.I grew up around this work and always watched the guys operate the backhoe,so i knew how to dig, how to dig safe, i learned all the tricks to moving the machine by using the bucket,how to dig grade etc,but until you actually sit in the chair and grab a lever and move it you dont realize all that is nessassary to operate this machine.

You watch the verterans swing the bucket all over the place all movements are fluent.

You get your chance to try it.
You barley touch one lever and bucket flies 20 ft to the right.

The realization now sets in,this is alot harder than it looks.So you start reading the diagrams,to see what lever moves what.2 levers move the bucket 10 different ways.

You begin breaking white boards,or begin to move the arm of the bucket outward

Add a board,lower the boom as the arm swings out with the other lever.

Add a board,curl the bucket as the boom reaches the ground

Add a board,dig backward

Add a board,hold grade as you dig backward using the other lever.

In time your mind and body have harmonized with the fluid that moves the bucket in all directions and without thought,the slightest movement of the machine is automatic to you.You have become one with the machine, so to speak

You have now conditioned yourself to break large stacks of wood,not because I overpowered the machine but because in repetition my mind conditioned my body to break the boards.With every hit your brain is like a computer that processes info and will relay corrections to your muscles.You mind will twist your hand a split second before the last time to achieve maximum muscle involvement or whatever,

With every movement of the lever you learn and become more proficient with your mechanics.

Before you know it your digging like the pros,all conditioned learning.

Before you know it your punch is ten times more powerful and accurate.

Just punching a heavy bag, wont tell your brain what to correct because nothing breaks or measures impact force.Something has to give way to measure.

Hand condtioning is a added bonus, but punching sand would be more useful.sand will grind into the skin and create more calous.

Many pro breakers punch sand to condition there hands for breaking.

There isnt too many techniques in martial arts that are useless.

Knowledge is power.Ignorance is blind.

Hmmmm. Legions of boxers, kickboxers and MMA folk will disagree with that.

I would say the important thing is what can you do to a skilled man trying to hit you back? Can you get power there?

A bag and pads are ok indicators but they dont act like people and the angles you can get on a person to cause damage to them that may not seem or look powerfull from and person watching and can be surprising.For example To knock out someone you have to rapidly make their head rotate. So 'clipping' the chin at the right angle might do more than a so called powerfull punch straight to their face.
Look at Anderson Silva knock someone out as he was going backwards almost. That was timing and angles and it didnt look amazingly powerfull. It would of looked and felt crap on a bag I bet.
Bags and pads are great aids yet not subsitutes for skilled opponents.

matt,

go read it again.read it slowly.there is alot of stuff in there that goes way beyond describing unsu.also no, im not saying shotokan people the hardest hitters im saying the heal stamp is the most powerful punch a human being can deliver. period.


cord,

the breaking im describing goes way beyond tricks.it also doesnt include a holder.or an audience.ill go deeper with this in the morning.

I did read it Paul. I didn't see anything in there besides unsubstanstiated opinion to back up your point. I would posit that ground and pound strikes are probably at least as powerful, maybe moreso since the opponent can't move back away.

Matxtx also made a good point that maximum power is not always relevant to stopping an opponent.

matt;

that post contains dynamics,physics,anatomy,high level training,examples,reasons for, reasons, why,reasons why not,body posturing,stances, muscles contractions,

Im not going to explain it any further,its all there.

as far as the guy laying on the ground who cant move.this really has nothing to do with your punching power.nor does the whether or not its needed.the guy laying on the ground is softer than the heal being stamped into the floor.this creates a shock wave effect.a way of putting your self on a tripod.

example would be.
shoot a shot gun normal.the gun kicks back into your shoulder,now put the gun up against the wall and fire it.without recoil the muzzle blast is tens times more powerful.

the point was the heal stamp being the most powerful way to hit.and it is.The thread is about why we target or hit something .My point was ,to build your punch foundation,stance focus,technique.

The heal stamp is a punch that was developed to destroy the organ behind the impact.not knock someone out,its a death punch.so mma, ground and pund techniques are not part of this scenerio,

Like i said, i talk real karate not mma.If mma used true tma techniques like the tzuki-waze techniques of shotokan,there would be no mma.they would have all been arrested for deadly assault.MMA is a show.a play or theatrical performance.as is kick boxing,or kumite.

cord;

my experience directly with shotokan is correspondence,my experince with goju is direct,but keep in mind, shotokan is really the sport version of goju.which is why i never understood why they developed the most deadly punch in ma.but they did.

I have worked with a few shotokan people over the years amd i judge the tradtional japanese kata division at tournaments.I have spent alot of years reading as well as training the japanese arts.

As far as aikido and any other striking art.
there completly seperate and can be trained together,mixing two soft styles or two hard styles is where your mind will get confused in a real life situation.

now if i trained aikido and judo ,this could be a PROBLEM.

I have a tkd shodan too.itf.

I am a tradtionalist at heart,my ryu is tradtional,but, im also a sportsman,

Example would be a cop.when he is working, his gun is for protection but after work he likes to take a different gun and go shoot skeet.

I like talking about tournaments too.naska in particular.I have two kids who compete on the naska circuit.

Hi Paul

You mentioned that you haven't studied boxing or kickboxing. I have studied boxing. I also took TKD for a time (just a year!).

The boxers I trained with, by and large, punched far harder than anyone in my TKD class. Now, it would be remiss of me in the extreme to say that boxers punch harder than TMA based on my experience. I have not studied all systems in the world that involve punching. I have not done or seen a study that compared all the punching styles and techniques in the world. So it would be impossible for me to say what system or technique in punching is best.

Now, you mentioned you studied traditional karate and TKD (amongest other things). You mentioned that Shotokan developed the most powerful punching technique.

I read a really good interview with a guy called Peter Consterdine, who is well known in UK martial arts. In it, he said that despite decades of karate training, his punching power only went to the next level when he started studying OTHER systems, namely Wing Chun and Xingyi.

Here is an interview with him, and a quote from the interview:

http://www.theshotokanway.com/peterconsterdineinterview.html

" The Chinese systems are simply more capable of developing impact through relaxed technique. Certainly, the more ‘internal’ systems generate their power through really good dynamics, relaxation and great whipping action. Japanese Karate is far too muscular and heavily set in place, hence the generally poor impact generated, particularly in punches. "

Here is a clip of him teaching some striking. This is a one of the best clips on punching instruction I have ever seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smzVwgnhq3E

What I am saying is that there is a lot of different opinion about punching out there, even within TMAs. I don't think any of us can say for sure that one method is the most powerful, especially if we haven't studied all the methods available.

the mechanics of the punch are the relevance,stopping the recoil,and creating shock through your body from heal stamping the floor.and returning energy back through the body to the target.

keep in mind,MR. Costerdine had already built the foundation of his punch using traditional karate methods.his mind had already conditioned his body to hit.which is like riding a bike.

so when he moved on to Chinese methods his body only harmonized with those techniques.in a sence, his mind without him realizing it created a fusion effect.

now would those same chinese relaxed techniques be that strong without the japanese muscle and recoil?

so in a sence of fusion maybe he came up with something but, individual punching power is owned by the japanese.

Im not saying he is wrong but ,what i am saying is his mind and body were already condtioned.as mentioned his punching went "the next level".

you cant just throw out your japanese mind set.

yea...I'd probably have to disagree with that. Can you point out to me where I can find factual info that would tell me that Japanese punching methods are more powerful than the Chinese?

paul -



None of which are in sufficient detail to support your position that the heel stamp is the "most powerful punch in martial arts". A study showing impulse power or something along those lines would be a more concrete support for your side. Boxers routinely raise their heels when striking to afford full body-weight transfer and hip torque. Boxers clearly have one-hit KO power. This link talks about some of the striking force findings when MMA guys were tested:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbth...true#Post378840

Note that the circular punches were far more powerful than the straight ones.



And as far as the "deadly assault" those punches would wreak in the UFC........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwKPMEiiobk

With my apologies to Fred Ettish, who I actually greatly respect for getting back in there after his inital showing, years later. Only using this to show a point.



Hmmmm.....so you're saying that the opponent's orientation and environment has nothing or even very little to do with punching power? I would find that astonishing in light of your stated training time.



Does this mean you have a problem (tkd+goju)? Just kidding.



No - he's saying "The Chinese systems are simply more capable of developing impact through relaxed technique".

Again, any actual proof for your conviction would be appreciated.

this isnt opinion. its simple mechanics


im not going to attempt to explain physics and dynamics

google it.study recoil study impact from recoiled source and non recoiled source,

this should be called the devils advocate forum,.


boxers use the heal stamp more than you think.all the short knockouts where people say he didnt even hit him, how did he knock him out?.look where his foot was.planted on the ground

tkd goju think ,whatever.

my explantion of a guy laying on the ground or not ,is in direct realtion to 26 years.maybe it takes that long.

I am starting to believe it's not that you won't, but rather that you can't. I have offered concrete examples of my opinion. All of which you have ignored.



I don't need to google it, thanks. My first style was all about jargon and concepts. But weren't you the one making fun of others googling info? So it's OK if you call for it, but not when anyone else does.

I see.



I assume you have some examples?

Hey, Paul,

Clear this up for me, please. I am figuring that you are saying: the heel stomp, with the strength/power of the leg behind it, is happening at the exact same time as the punch with the strength/power of the arm, shoulders and back behind it. They add together becoming stronger than either individually. Am I close?

How we got from targets to power, I am not sure but since we are here, lets discuss.

We are discussing a few of the mechanics that relate to power creation, be it punch or bullet or a pool cue, the physics are finite and definable.

Paul is not incorrect in his concept, but it's really a very long way to state base, and is more related to transfer of power, then generation of power.

To boil it down there are really 2 main concepts to deal with, how one generates power and how one then transfers that power to the target.

Of course there are many parts to each and the 2 overlap, but to the point the "heel Stamp" it is only one part of many moving pieces to consider. I could list a few dozen without to much effort, but in the end it comes to understanding the how and the why.

For generation, it's F=MxA, No matter how you combine torque, soft, hard, strength, size, linear, circular etc...it all comes down to that.

For transfer, it's a few items. Force is inversely proportional to the area of contact, time of contact (here is where you waves come in) and it's related to off-setting recoil forces (Paul's example of a shotgun against a wall vs a shoulder).

So a few thoughts on the most powerful punch, first the most powerful punch is the one you can actually land, and in MA in general the role of power is a bit overrated. (See Ali-Forman)

Second, in the MA's I have studied, most usually focus in on one or 2 ideas of how to create power, give them special names like "marriage of gravity" and then they try and apply these across the bored. My opinion is there are many ways to create and transfer power, and anyone trying to do so, needs to understand the "why" so they can adapt the "how" that works best for them.

Third, it's more important to develop the best punch, the most powerful while fun, is usually impractical in application, not always but usually.

I don't disagree out of hand that MMA fighters don't strike as powerfully as they could, and that if done correctly a punch can kill, but I do know that MMA fighters base their training on what they can do in a practical setting, not what can be done in a theoretical setting.

So to come back around to Paul's point since he seems to have set himself up as the resident punching bag lately. To state the heel stamp is the most powerful punch one can throw, is not an accurate statement, if only because there is not Data to support it. The physics you describe certainly make me think in isolation it could be, but we would need to see testing and for a number of reasons, that would be difficult to show anything definitive. All you could really prove is that it is a factor in power transfer, but not the direct cause.

Kimo -



Yes, I agree. This is why I have a problem with Paul stating that one element will create t3h u1t1m4t3 punch. It doesn't work that way. If someone fails to use the heel stamp, but instead makes good use of launching, hip torque, gravity, shoulder extension, proper joint synergy, etc, they may be able to hit as hard or harder than someone that relies on the heel stamp.

To say nothing of targeting, opponent orientation/momentum and environment.

i remember when i questioned it too.:)

as far as being resident punching bag.

Hienas just make the most noise.

the lion sleeps peacefully.

whats funny is none of you have learned the heal stamp and yet you all stick your nose up at it.you guys dont even know why we hit targets ,why board breaking is important.or much of anything about traditional ma..you keep comparing mma to tma which is a joke.

I don't think TMA is a joke at all. I know from working with some that do TMA - including some on this forum - that it isn't a joke. Nobody wants to get hit by JohnL, LOL.

I have been shown the heel stamp, and don't agree that it is as important as you think. I have also done board and concrete breaking, and don't agree that stuff is important either.

Rawr.

Couple of problems Paul, you speak in absolutes, as if somehow you know something everyone else doesn't. Claiming to the best of anything weakens your credibility especially when you offer nothing in the way a proof. All you have said, is if you use this technique you will have a punch more powerful than any other. Based on what? Your personal experience? Then your statement should read that the Heel stamp is the one technique that increases power more then any other I have experienced.

What if you hit with an open hand instead of two knuckles? You have just changed something completely unrelated to the heel stamp, but have significantly changed the power transfer of your punch.

No one is thumbing their nose at your technique, they are thumbing their nose at your claim of being the most powerful. The absolute nature of your comment smacks of Kiai Master types, and on a forum where anyone can claim anything without physically having to back it up, those kinds of comments don't go over well.

Second, the comparing TMA to MMA. TMA is no joke to me, been around it for many years. But MMA seems to be a joke to you, and that is not a good path to go down.

I share the belief that MMA guys could learn a lot from TMA but many chose not too. But TMA can learn a lot from MMA as well, but many choose not too.

The comparisons are no joke, if fact IMO the ones on either side who dismiss the other out of hand, are the ones who lose out the most.

So the technique you cite as being the hardest punch in Martial arts, exists in shotokan, but not in its parent art, Goju.
Your training is predominantly aikido, though you have some informal cross-training in Goju.
Your exposure to Shotokan is in correspondance only.

So you are offering as fact, a technique that you have never even trained, merely discussed and read about.

Surely this cannot be?

The fact is this is the worst forum ive ever seen for word play games.if a person says something but, it isnt said in exact context whether its understandable or not its attacked.

Kimo have you read my post in Okinawan lineage thread?or the post in this thread where i broke down the heal stamp ,or the shotokan thread where i broke down unshu?

I write things a certain way and hide the meanings in plain site for the the people i want to see them.like the bunkai to a kata.if you are an advanced tma student, nidan or above,the post will make sence to you,
not the context but the meaning of the post, and who is writing them and why he is writing them a certain way.

since i got here, i have been treated with disrespect,my first post was about masagatsu agatsu,cord has been hammnering me since he read it.trying to prove to all his forum bodies im a fake.he just did it again on t his last post here.it has been constant,"HA SEE HE IS LYING HE SAID THIS INSTEAD OF THAT"
type of b.s.

anyone who can read my post will will understand there not talking to a rookie.you cant write that without many years of top notch training.like 20 plus.

any student who is worth there weight in salt will respect those posts just for the way there written.the fact there not, is my way of proving these kids are pretenders.or wantabes who chase off any genuine martial artist who can expose there lack of experience.

As is said, the lion rest peacefully.the hienas circle around him, hootin and hollerin but are no threat and he knows it.

the shotokan punch is not something you see and then go do it btw.takes a couple years.not everything is for sale on the shelf at walmart.there is probably about 100 miniature components to that punch.some other waza,like learning your punch foundation at white belt.the part where we discussed, your mind conditioning your body form feedback,every muscle in your body is used as is perfect timing of the stamp in relation to the physics of your body.then there is some ki energy issuse which take another few years to understand,all assuming your going to place that can teach this stuff( good luck).

so unforunatly,at this time i have to concur there isnt any high level martial artist here. and i say that because im sure most of them have been run off by this brat pack of novice practioners who dont know jack about real martial arts.


If im wrong about any of this, yesterday i broke dwon the bunkai to the unshu kata in the Rules of bunkai thread.
why dont you experts go tear that aprt.

lets see who is real and who isnt.heres your chance cord, make me look like an idiot.

this is about kata bunkai, not anything in particular, i used unshu because it was what the thread was about .ill accept any kata from any style

cord ;to play your games again.

no the heal stamp was not part of the gojuryu,does that mean something?

so just because i never trained in shotokan.this means i could have never learned the heal stamp.

Alfred Vacheron invented the steering wheel, but, every car has one.
Shotokan created the punch,ok?

If other styles didnt steal techniques there would be no mma.:)

You have got to the worst rebuttal debater ive ever met.you take absolutly worthless info and use it as your evidence,.you remind me of the lawyer on "my cousin vinny" who was hired by stan,the one who studdered all the time.

I really hope your not a lawyer.if you are, you beterr stick to personal injury.and hope like hell you never have to go to court.


Disclaimer, this was not a personal attack . it was a rebuttal to a personal attack.just a bit more direct.

sonner or later your gonna have to stop trying to prove im not who i say i am and show who you are.

im still waiting to here some of that ninja stuff.actually i should be quiet, if you can blow a dart like you blow smoke i might be in trouble.can you do a video of you like doing a backflip off a wall?please.you say i cant hit a nerve in the neck but you guys can like throw a star from 50 meters and hit one.that isnt fair.i just watched the beverly hills ninja last night and i thought of you.:)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZQ_wjVkNak

my favorite was the guy who said he is in the special forces but the army rangers are not a special force unit.

to quote vinny.

"im done with this guy"

You need to learn the difference between attack and a search for clarification. If clarification betrays you, then I suppose one finds the attack by one's self.



So, are we on to a personal attack yet, or is this still re. your buttal?

As you are an authority on all Japanese ryu, you will know all about the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan, and their right to teach the 3 ryu that are widely believed to comprise the only remaining recognised ninpo knowledge/techniques. You will also know that the Bujinkan comprises a further 6 ryu that cover things as diverse as herbal medicine and meteorology.
The open hand and bladed weapon techniques of budo-taijutsu share many aiki principles in common with Aikido, with Takamatsu having been a peer of Ueshiba's, and both having a lineage that incorporates Daito ryu.

But of course you already know all this, what with you being a scholar of Japanese arts. Just suprising that one as eminent as you, with such high martial ideals and perception, would get so rattled, so unpleasant, so easily.

If you see us as your inferiors, then help us. If you are 'a college professor' and I/we are talking 'highschool' then teach us.

Or do you break open a fortune cookie in your class, read it out, and when the 5 of the thousands of special force troops who can tolerate you ask a question, do you merely hurl abuse and storm off to explain to your mirror how awesome you are and how dumb the rest of the world is?

You are not a teacher. You are a parody.

ive tried to offer info to you cord, like i said before your head is too hard.

so now we play games.

your immaturity shows with every post, you say something infantile every time.

like you saying i said im a expert on all japanese martial arts.never said that but , you just have to show your diaper every chance you get.

its like you have a license to fly ignorance and your going to fly it into every post you see.

also with all that high level info you just shared.most of which is easily found in wiki. btw.you should ahve no problem adding or doing what you do best, tearing apart my bunkai post.

im waiting

Sorry, was it just me who is asking questions on this thread? oh no, that's right, everyone else on here is inexperienced, inferior and challenged as well.
Passing info clearly to a bunch of goofs like us is probably difficult - is that why you dont bother trying to?

I have an idea, next time there is an FA get together (these do happen from time to time - you know, real people, training together, sharing ideas), why not put your name in the hat? Seeing as how you yourself have admitted that you were taught by non-verbal communication, it is unfair to expect you to be able to articulate your ideas in text. You could teach this to those in attendance, or maybe you could try and do that via video footage now!?
Just trying to help



shhh - I thought the lion was silent?



You said elsewhere that you felt qualified to talk about any and all martial arts, and that is what you wanted to do on the site. You also put in the info about judging at a Japanese arts comp, so one must presume a wide level of expertise for such to be true.



Oh, we both already know you are a big fan of wiki dont we mate - 'Rangers are...' and all that

You see, the difference is that my words are not wiki quotes, they are my own. Further differences can be found in that I got the knowledge from a Bujinkan school in which I trained, along with a real scholar of martial arts on here, Laff, who was very kind to correspond with me and answer my questions with knowledge, not empty insult. As I stated directly to you previously, I did not persue Bujinkan training, as I was not physicaly suited to the level of gymnastic ability and ukemi that was required, and that hampered my abilities. People on this forum were very helpfull then as well, as they offered advice on sound gymnastic training process, but sadly, it was to no avail.



And you can keep waiting. Bunkai is specific to karate kata. I already told you, I dont post in the areas I do not feel qualified to do so.

I can tear apart your bunkum however, which I have been doing for weeks now


None of which has anything to do with the validity of object breaking in practical application of striking to a mobile, yielding, human body.
You were going to 'go deep' on this, before you decided to lash out at everyone, and deflect the thread into an advert for a technique you have never studied in any depth outside of a page.

Please continue when you feel ready.

Paul -

OK, let's try to be direct here. You said that the heel stamp is the most powerful punch in martial arts. I disagreed and asked for evidence. I offered that boxers and other strikers use a raised heel and still KO people - with gloves on, even. You said that TMA punching would be deadly assault in competition, and I offered video that proved otherwise, not to mention other things like the Sabaki Challenge or 100-man kumite, where death should occur every match, I guess. You said that boxers use the heel stamp often. I asked for examples. I offered a myriad of other factors involved in striking power, to demonstrate the unlikeliness that any single factor could be the sole determiner of ultimate power.

So, let's get direct. Please answer clearly and specifically:

* Do you have any substantial evidence of the heel stamp to show it is the most powerful punch in martial arts?

* Do you consider the KO's/broken bones that have occured in boxing, MMA etc, to be fundamentally different from the effect the heel stamp would have? If so, how?

* Do you have examples of boxers using the heel-stamp for KO?

* Can you clarify how the heel stamp is more important/effective than any of the other factors in striking power that I mentioned earlier, singularly, or in total?

I await your response. Thank you.

Folks -

I attempted to split the thread to separate the heel-stamp stuff from the original topic, but it only moved a few of the posts. Here are the moved posts:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=424930#Post424930

Apologies for tech-klutzing.

From what I have read of your posts, you deal with the How, but never the why. You say this is the technique, and here is how you do it. But you never quantify why is works using the laws of physics and bio-mechanics.

Your, "I hide things is plain sight" concept is cute, but utterly worthless in an exchange of ideas that a forum is supposed to be. To go on a state their are no high level Martial Artists here, is first of all quite a high level insult, factually incorrect, and most certainly not something a confident high level MA practitioner would likely ever say.

Personally I hold suspect people who use as a basis for their argument the need to "read me their resume" or refer to the years of experience they have in the arts. Neither holds any water and only those who need the validation of those things ever use them or refer to them.

My Shudo-Kan instructor used to say, "The proof of the Pudding, is in the eating" if you ever have a question, take it to the mat.

I have no way to judge your martial abilities, as I have never seen you in action, but you would wise not to judge mine, or the others who contribute to the sight. Many of us are not the fools you like to think we are, and many of us have no problem exchanging ideas and taking to the mat. (that is not meant to be a threat, it's a reference to the fact that members of this site actually meet and workout from time to time).

As for me, I have been knocking around the arts since the late 70's, and I while I have not seen it all, I have seen a lot, enough to know that there are 2 kinds of Martial Artists out there, those who can hang, and those who cannot.

So I say to you Paul, drop the pretense of speaking in code, I am not here to learn your training methods or read your Okinawan Lineage, I am hear to see or hear what results you are able to achieve due to that training and lineage.

In other words, show me the pudding.

i did explain that kimo.the basis of the recoil alone coupled with your shotokan experience alone should answer your questions,
im not sure what more you want. im not going to do scientific formulas for you.

this is basic physics,shotokan just figured out how to apply it there curriclum first.being a high dan you should understand that.

okinawan styles of shorin ryu, used the teisho -uchi way before that. which is the palm heel strike.

the punch was shotokan.

btw, matt is moving post all over the place so i may be reposting,

kururunfa is a goju kata not kurunfa,these names have meaning so leaving half of it off makes a difference.also i never kururunfa said was a shotokan kata.its a goju kata and one of the 8 brought back from china.
essence of the praying mantis

kimo you wrote;3.

There is no kata called Kurunfa in Shotokan. This is an Okinawan name for a kata found in styles from that island, and also in Japanese Goju-ryu, or so I understand. I also understand that there's a kata in Shotokan and other Japanese styles that is similar to, or based on, Kurunfa, though I don't know which one.


You mean to tell me a sandan in shotokan, dont know the shotokan kata?

i smell b.s.

But if shotokan comes from Goju, and Goju from a cross cultural polination with China, can you cite where or when this completely out of historical context, unique to shotokan, introduction of new biomechnics occurred?

I have seen much use of foot stamp to help convey power to a strike in internal arts, such as certain schools of Tai Chi, and whilst the semantics between east and western description vary, and even belief in how certain principles work, ther is usually a uniform basis of principle behind them.

I dont think anyone is disputing the biomechanics of wich you have spoken, it is this absolutism behind your sweeping statements that raise eyebrows.

Look at it this way. A boxer has one weapon available - the punch. pugilism has evolved over the years to a point where pretty much every avenue has been tried in the persuit of functional power and efficacy improvement.

Now boxers such as Chris Eubank had a karate background, and I can see commonalities between Mayweather's defensive footwork and good hard contact point karate. I can also see comparison between Tyson's 'square on' wide stance and massive hip torque, and top exponents in Kyokushin competition.
We have also all had to acknowledge that Machida has maintained more stylistic traits inherent to his Shotokan in his MMA.

With all that being said, and with all the millions, hell, billions of dollars in pro striking fight sports, along with all the kinesiologists, university sports science departments and biomechanical experts who have researched the concept of putting knuckle to face, nobody, apart from you, has come up with the definitive 'best' way to punch.

Sometimes you just have to alter your opinion to fit the facts, not try and manipulate fact to fit your opinion.



Brilliant. This from the guy who cannot even spell the techniques in his art of 26 years.

If you want slack, cut slack. If you smell BS, be judged by your own standards.

Kimo has offered more actual explanation on here than you, who have just recommended we google. That's going about as deep as the puddle in my back yard.

Because Matt moved the thread, I'll give you some slack here, but I am a Shudo-Kan guy, not a Shotokan Guy, there is a difference.



Well that is too bad, and they wern't for me, they were for you to help you make you point. This gets back to the "why" I was mentioning. You can make claims about power all day, maybe they are true, maybe they are not. Either way there is a mathmatical equation that explains everything, and if you are a high ranking Dan, making claims about power you should know the math (or at least have reference to it) to support what you are saying.

Back in my early days, my instructor had a Physicist from the University come and measure, and then explain our techniques, and how we generated power etc, it was a great day because he was not concerned with tradition, simply the math. With that knowledge I can walk into any school or gym and judge a technique, or even point out strength and weaknesses.

Again, I am not knocking your technique, I am just asking you to show us the math that supports your claim. If you don't know it, you should learn it.

i'd have to agree with what is said. Its not your explanation in describing your heel stamp, but your absolute claims that you have made like the heel stamping being the most powerful punch and that even the punching power in Japanese arts are greater than that of Chinese arts. Is there some kind of study that was done for you to come to this conclusion? I've seen a study in comparing different martial arts was in National Geographic's Fight Science and the Western Boxer actually recorded the highest punch in that study. Another was recording the power behind a punch from an MMA fighter, and Bas Rutten's punches are powerful enough to rupture organs.

I mean if you're talking karate, then they owe many of their striking techniques to the CMA's that heavily influenced them. You're comparing a karate punch to punches that you don't have experience in (Chinese arts).

and these shows are great fun - remember the 'Deadliest Warrior' one? Great entertainment, but these tests of power can never be against a real living, reacting human body, only ever an inert substance that an approximation of human flesh. That is why Rutten's punches have the potential to rupture organs, yet have never done so - they are hitting something that has its own biomechanical mechanisms that help cope with the impact forces it experiences.

Which brings us back full circle to the fact that board breaking tells us, and helps us little with developing the skills required to punch a live, mobile and responsive human oponent.

To start with kimo,
i apologize ,with all the post moving i got you and magon mixed up. Magon is the person who claims to be a sandan in shotokan but,dont know his own kata.

This punch was developed to be the most powerful punch by producing a return shock through the body from the floor.This is basic physics.You site the right cross,this punch is delivered using body weight,the heel lifts on any reach punch,once again taking away the shock from the floor.
The upper cut is a form of heel stamp because the heel stays on the floor creating shock by eliminating recoil.

The heel stamp is a short punch, no reaching,I dont know the scientific data on this.I do understand physics.and dynamics.
if you guys dont realize that hitting from energy delivered from the floor is more powerful than just swinging a body part,you need to go back to school.
I think i learned recoil in 8th grade.

In very simple terms, if energy cant push back it pushes forward.by stomping the heel into the ground your hitting with this generated force.your adding a punch to the power.instead of just punching with your body weight.

Once again, i love when you guys put words in my mouth by the way.where did i say japanese arts are better than chinese? where did i say japanese arts are more powerful?
all i fricken said was that shotokan owns the most powerful punch.and they do.due to physics and dynamics,not because there any different or better .they just figured this out first.

very simple. force delivered without recoil is much stronger than force delivered from a source that recoils.

do this;
punch a solid object any way you want.
now punch it again with your drive foot against the wall.
see which one makes your teeth rattle.
this doesnt even include the the concept of the heel stamp, this is just taking the recoil out of the punch.

This is like telling someone a car can go faster with round tires instead of square ones.you guys are asking for scientific proof though.

COMMON SENCE.

this is an absolute.and quiet honestly a very simplistic one.

i do understand the chinese arts.i am a huge fan of the chinese arts.blackbelt theater is why im sitting here having this enlightening conversation with you boys.

i like wushu and kenpo.tai-chi is a variation of my ryu.

im not a karate guy.im an aikido guy.
I am chevys guy too but, I can drive a ford or dodge just as well.

you will be hard pressed waiting to hear me critisize another tma.as a whole.

i might point out weaknesses. but I will also point out the weaknesses of my ryu in the same sentence.

I do not consider mma in the same sentence with tma.so to hear me argue for or against in comparison wont happen.they are not the same and other than they share a name.one of which shouldnt be using.

for any martial art to be martial,it must be or or used to be trained for war or death.hence the name martial, from mars the god of war.

mma has never been trained for war or death, its a sport.it should have remained ultimate fighting,.

You boys keep hacking away but your not gaining much ground.

the members here who i get a kick out of. .3rd degree shotokan guy who dont know his own kata.A special farces guy who dont know the rangers a special forces outfitand the great white ninja who cant tumble.

kimo we just met.iaibear and i have a common interest,and i like the australian guy ,cant remember his name.

these gentlemen have talked the talk and you can tell there genuine practioners,the rest of you post smashers or prove it guys are kinda funny.

i put that post up on bunkai for the genuine.those who can read it. can read it.those who cant well.......remember that clapton song?

thats the real proof in the pudding.

not alot of people who can describe stuff like that without knowing it and knowing it well.

as a matter of fact, my posts are ripped apart in a frenzy, but that one still sits all by itself.untouched.

the lion lays back down for another nap.zzzzzzzzzz

the hienas huddle for another attack.

From earlier:



Hi Paul

I think this is the quote that maybe confused a few people. It could be read that you are saying Japanese arts "own" punching power. In other words, Japanese arts have the most powerful punching methods. So in the context of this conversation, some people may have thought you meant Japanese arts are "better" than other arts (including Chinese systems) when it comes to punching.

However, the first statement I quoted from you seems to clarify your position in that you believe Shotokan to have the most powerful punching method, that is all. Hopefully I got that right!? Please feel free to correct me.

I have another question, but as this thread is getting quite big, I'll send it via PM.

You do realise that the majority of formalised martial arts were codified after periods of war, to keep the soldiers of the time busy in times of peace.

Karate did not exist until after the unification of Japan.

The chinese arts developed as a way of preventing the Chinese monks from slipping into laziness and 'unholy' practice.



Tai Chi did not evolve from Aikido, Goju, TKD, or Shotokan (written only) . Its origins stretch back to the 6th century Taoist philosophies of China, so if they share principles, fair enough, but to merely say Aikido is a variation of Tai Chi is a gross oversimplification.



Then you should be able to extrapolate the data yourself. You are a 'professor' , not a 'highchool student' remember?



In this thread. In your posts. For a zen warrior, you sure do make a good ditch digger.



Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread, and, as an off topic assertion, is, very reasonably, being questioned. Especially the 'discovered it first' part. There is also that 'unique to shotokan/I never trained shotokan' issue you have not cleared up.



Is there anything you don't think you understand?



You have already stated that Goju was a product of Japanese, and Chinese influence. You also have no problem blending your Aiki and goju into a cohesive unit. It would appear you like MMA more than you think.



and we are back to Monty Python's Black Knight.



Interesting. So people who post honestly, without ego, garner your contempt.
If you are looking to the internet as a tool for self aggrandizement, you really are barking up the wrong wooden man



Right, because there are no texts available on bunkai/practical kata application possibilties right?

I dont do kata, and a bunkai breakdown has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the questions you have been unable to satisfy on THIS thread.

If I ask you the time of day, and you didnt know, would you launch into a bunkai speech in the hope of placating me, or just admit you didnt know?



There goes another kitten. Such a pointless waste. WHY DAMN YOU WHY!!!!???

here comes cord with his 12 year old rebuttals

professor of science?i said i understand physics.i can drive a race car too but i cant build one.my earlier comment was that you were talking high school to a professor.now if you want to say i consider myself a martial arts professor,maybe you have something to question,but a science professor,ummm nope didnt say that.your 12 year old butt poor rebuttin a44 did.again

japanese karate was developed during the japanese/china wars not after.

saying i like many styles doesnt mean im blending them.so mma thing you said rediculous again.and pointless. like most of your educated questions

saying i consider myself a zen warrior.12 year old childish rebuttal again

tai chi is a variation of aikido being a soft style bright boy.no where did i say it evolved from anything and where did i blend goju and aikido?. your on a roll

i said martial arts must have been trained for war or death. not just war. nice work.

the chinese arts were developed to keep the munks from getting lazy? rflmao. this is classic cord here. this is worse than the special farces guy.do you read this stuff before you hit submit?

is there anything i dont understand? hmm better question.is there anything you do understand?

i have answered the questions on this thread. you just dont understand the answers.franlly thats your problem not mine.i even dumbed it down for you and gave some homework. to prove it to yourself.give it try after you get home from tumbling class tonight.

If you think you can find that bunkai description or kata description anywhere on the internet besides where i typed.find it and ill swim to the uk and kiss your tatooed butt.

you just shortened the life of your keyboard for no reason..

you said absolutly nothing,

back to sleep.ahhhhhhh zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

prizewritter;

im not double posting, your responce is deserving of its own post and i would be embarrased to put it with the unplugged cord.

yes, all i was saying is the heel stamp punch is the most powerful punch in fighting .this is due to the mechanics not the origin and thats all i said.this has nothing to do with japanese, chinese,korean,or greece,it just happened in japan.

the hienas took it from there.:)

Truest thing you have said on this site since you joined.

www.iclipart.com/search.php?keys=164240&id=198

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarZW0DdS-U&feature=related

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrThclm01v8

clydesdales.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfMvCbAIFas

white ninja,donkey
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQElwOxhPAw

From the other thread.
Continuing: So I misspelled the name of the kata. Yeah, and this is crucial how? And as to you answering the issues I brought up, instead of concentrating on correcting my spelling...??
I'm making a formal "B.S. call" on you, dude. Put up, or shut up.

P.S.: Since you're interested in spelling, it's "ridiculous", not "rediculous", as you wrote above.

Not much I can add to the topic other than what has already been said regarding developing technique and power.

About smashing boards though, as incredible as some of the feats can be, it is pure posturing and nothing else. Placed in proper context though, it serves a very valuable purpose. In the olden days of Japan and Okinawa, so the stories go, there was a lot of rivalry between dojos, with rival groups often chalenging each other. Breaking boards was one way of avoiding violence, and should violence occur, a way to intimidate rivals. Apparently this was quite common place even into the 60s when Japan was still getting over the war and on its way to becoming the rich and non-violent country it is these days. I don't reckon you'd get many groups going round to the rival dojo to chalenge them to a fight these days...the board breaking is still useful as it helps establish rank in dojos in a country obsessed with hierarchy.

when you learn your kata Mr Sandan let me know ok?

the point was you said there was a shotokan kata like kururunfa but you dont know what it is.as a sandan (3rd dan) you probably should know that.

I know kururunfa and unshu and im not a goju or shotokan student.

my bullshido call stands.

i didnt claim to be a shotokan sandan ,you did, so i have nothing to put up.you on the other hand have a small problem.:)

if you want to learn unshu , you can always go read my post on the bunkai clip

oh I didnt mean these studeies were the most accurate, just merely some recorded data to be put on the map, since everyone was asking of some type of proof or why/how paul are making these claims.

according to Bas though, he ruptured Jason Delucia's liver in their Pancrase match. And he has broken a number of livers/organs in his career..well according to him. I don't know if the fighters were actually taken to the hospital and such for that.

Paul

what does Black Belt Theater have to do with understanding the CMAs? I'm hoping your understanding goes beyond the 36 Chambers and 5 Fingers of Death...


I like a lot of things too, but you won't find me saying things like Praying Mantis has the most powerful punch ever.

I hadn't seen this before, but I'll take it from here.
It wasn't Kimo that wrote what you quoted, it was me. So you sure screwed that up.
But you went on to screw up even worse. You seem to like Wikipedia a lot, so refer to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotokan
There's a list of the Shotokan kata in it. Do you see Kururunfa on it?
I don't claim to know all the kata from other styles (Hence my misspelling it as Kurunfa. You got that part right), but I know Shotokan, and you sure don't!
Of course you smell B.S. You're covered in it.
Troll alert!!!

P.S.: It's called "Unsu" in Shotokan, not "Unshu". At least you admitted you don't know Shotokan or Goju-ryu. Now why don't you go all the way and admit you don't know martial arts beyond having read a few articles.
Before you were paul40, did you use the handle "Razwell"?

and so it goes.

Paul posts in self admitted riddles (at best)
Questions are asked
The answers are evasive/irrelavent/off topic
This leads to more questions
Paul switches to personal insult and borderline unbalanced diatribe instead of seeking to resolve the issues through proper dialogue.

An aikidoka who cannot spell his techniques.

An expert in physical street defence who has never tried and tested his tried and tested techniques.

A military CQC trainer who is entrusted with only 5 of the military's finest, and resorts to an uncredited wiki quote to describe the forces he teaches.

An authority on karate who doesn't train karate. But does. But doesn't.

A scholar of the martial arts, able to comment with authority on all, who doesnt see any TMA in MMA, and thinks that Tai Chi is an off-shoot of Aikido.

Delusional? On face value, certainly.

Contradictory? Undoubtedly

Socialy retarded? Unquestionably.

Illiterate? Evidently

A troll? Possibly

An MAist with an agenda to use the site in the capacity of a troll? Only slightly more likely

Kimo and MattJ: Didn't we have a SERIOUS three way discussion on this subject a year or two ago, in regards to some AKK videos?
Now THAT was worthwhile.

I shall ignore most of this thread to muse on the original question.

I think the importance of having something to hit lies in stability, or rooting. Punching/kicking air ingrains correct muscle memory for the technique, but if there's no stability in what's attaching you to the floor then a hard punch will send you flying backwards rather than the thing you're hitting. The role of the target lies in training your body to dissipate the force returning through your attacking limb.

Those I've met from assorted schools have trained to deliver power by either hitting stuff (say, boxing) or with resisting partners and rooting (CMA), the latter more often in the form of throws/locks and so forth. The boxers can generally punch harder, but that's not a great surprise as they spend a higher proportion of their time training to punch hard.

Guys

Someone with this number of posts over the limited time he's been registered reeks of Troll.

As for the subject matter, that the "Heel Stamp" is the most powerful technique and comes from Shotokan. I've been practicing Shotokan for some 30 year now and I've NEVER heard of it.

As for the Kata's he quotes, none of them are Shotokan.

Sounds like we've got a guy who's read a few books and thinks he's god's gift to MA's.

I'll refrain from my most obvious response!!!

Just as a mental exercise, I tried to puzzle out just what this guy is talking about. The light bulb went off a minute ago. What he's alluding to is stamping down with the front foot at the moment of impact, when striking with the hands. His referring to it as the most powerful hand strike as well as his poor description of it had obfuscated it to me before. I thought he was talking about some variant of the palm heel strike.
A couple of things about this:

1. Some Shotokan instructors believe in it and teach it, some don't.

2. There is definitely at least some additional power generated by stamping down. But some in Shotokan believe that it would be disastrous to have the front foot swept as one is landing the foot with that much downward power committed to it. To their minds, the additional power generated doesn't justify the risk. That's why some instructors don't believe in it and don't teach it.

3. Those that do, teach stamping with the whole foot, the outward edge of the sole making the initial contact with the ground, not the heel. Stamping down barefoot with the heel on a hard surface is counterproductive, since it will son be hurt and bruised, as was made painfully obvious to me when I was first exposed to Hangetsu, and before Sensei caught up with what I was doing.

4. I'm not going to get into which of the various Karate styles was first to get into stamping the front foot. It doesn't matter, because WAY before Karate came along, Kenjutsu practioners were doing it in order to add more power to their cuts.



Yeah, well, don't tell him that. He doesn't want to hear it.



That wouldn't be "You're an idiot!", would it?

Yes, we did:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbth...true#Post366152

Paul, please don't forget:

Yes we did!

So, the heel stamp. Like I said many posts ago,it's just a long winded way to say base.

In order to throw the hardest punch, you must maximize the Mass, the Acceleration and minimize the recoil. The heel stamp would aide in this in two ways, first energy seeks the path of least resistance, so by having a firmer base you force the energy out a different direction, hopefully your target if everything else is properly aligned.

Second, it's possible to create some back up mass, by using the dynamic force of a stamp, you increase your available mass, increasing your force. (imagine a downward elbow where you rise up and slam down on you feet as you make contact).

Basic stuff really, but the heel stamp is nothing more than one piece of a large puzzle. In practice, you will almost never have every element of a strike available and in place, at least not if you are hitting a resisting opponent. You also don't need perfection in a strike for a KO, we see that all the time in striking sports.

I can't speak to the Kata, not a Shotokan guy, but as for the heel stamp, Paul is making way too much of it. There is nothing wrong with the concept in terms of the physics, it's just far from a complete picture of what it takes to deliver maximum power.

Just thought it might help to have some visual examples. I came across an interesting discussion in another forum regarding Xing Yi and the "stomping" as a part of "internal" power generation:



Couldn't even begin to explain the reckoning behind it though.

Had a look but I can't find any Karate examples? Maybe someone else could. A picture paints a thousand words etc...

its a damn good thing i clarified that i made a mistake and apologized to kimo then huh?

if you take your happy butt back and read the post,i said kururunfa was a goju kata not a shotokan kata.i then said unshu or unsu,there are two different spelling btw.is a shotokan kata and i explained it in the bunkai thread.

you said there was a shotokan kata that was like kururunfa but didnt know what it was,.ummm this would clasify you saying you dont know your kata.bright boy

your right about the troll thing but it appears to be a reflection off your screen.

as far as who knows kata and who dont ;can you or razwell explain it like this?

my view is that the kata are like, a beautiful book,
in a bookcase, looking pretty.. yet merely scrap paper
until opened, read, and understood..
everything in the book, is there for the purpose of leaving
the book and entering and becoming part of, a person..
the person then, becomes the kata..
just as the sensei performs the kata, for the students,
so they will learn it.. as a sort of dance form without meaning,
or as the resource, within which the meanings are waiting
to be discovered and included in that development..

i believe that learning one kata such as a goju kata from
the 8 brought back from fujian china, including bunkai
and their potential meanings, would add to any other
kata practiced.. the kata start with defensive waza..
they might be breaking away from a grab to the wrist
or throat or shoulder etc, but generally include
the principles of and mechanics of, converting his
grab of you to your control of him..
you see students 'eyes open' when they learn
even fairly simple applications of bunkai..

esp when its like, say, get them to grab each others wrists
and 'what would you do now?!' which will usually be
fruitless struggling which merely helps his gripping
then, you show a simple response involving his and your
c of g and momentum and manipulation of them plus
basic leverage [the grasped wrist/forearm becomes a lever
which is used against the non levering grasping fist] [etc]
and suchlike, which contacts that part of a person which
doesnt like being grabbed and doesnt have any ready
effective responses to being grabbed..


WHOS YOUR DADDY TROLL?

hey john,

unsu isnt a shotokan kata?thats news to me.and you have never heard of the heel stamp?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZKsYV22ryM

what was that responce you refrained from?

All this snow must really be going to my head, because I could swear the Ban Hammer is talking to me.

Hello Paul40. Just want to let you know we like to keep it civil around here. No more insults, y'hear?

ban me for what? saying the heel stamp is the most powerful punch.

saying unsu is a shotokan kata?

saying kurunnfa is a goju kata

explaining goju kata

explaining shtokan kata.

starting a thread about okinawan lineage

discussing my self defence teaching

questioning a guy guy who told me the rangers are not special forces unit.

questioning a guy whop says he is sandan in shotokan who doesnt know his kata

questioning a guy who claims 30 years shotokan experience but never heard of the unsu kata which i displayed above.


now all these statements were made to me in an attempt to prove im a troll.but yet i lay down post witgh more martial arts content than any other 10 people.

if you want to ban me,do your thing.but i generate more activity than 2o people.

like me or love me .people log in to see whats going to be said next.

tell cord to stop attacking new members and your forum will grow as big as all karate or martial planet.or maybe the forum i moderate on bullshido.

he keeps driving away genuine martial artist with his childish misinterpretations.and lack of knowledge.


this is the most action this forum has seen in years.according to the stuff you attempt to sell here.activity is what you need .

no edit for typing errors.candy for the hienas

No need to throw a conniption. Post all the opinions you want, dude. That's what this site is for.

I just said no more insults.

Paul -

What is your screen-name on Bullshido?

why?

mr zombie;

ill try to behave,:)

matt;

i wont tell you my name but, ill show you some of my work.
this guy was one of my favorites.this thing ran for 39 pages. i was not a mod at the time,only one of the interrogators.

you figure out which one is me

www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58876&page=7

You said you were a moderator on Bullshido. I wanted to see.

Which one is you?

<< Why? >> did you get asked.

Because that might be one of the places you hide the hints you have mentioned.

Paul -

Why don't you want to say who you are on Bullshido?

NOTHING you've written answers the specific questions that I and others have asked of you. Just more of you dancing the side-step.
I didn't need convincing, but by now it can't be any clearer: You're a B.S. artist and a troll. I'm done wasting my time with you. Specially since there are many in these forums who can be debated with, but who know what they're talking about.

Again, it would appear that your posts are at best inaccurate and at worst just incorrect.

I checked your earlier posts to make sure I hadn't made a mistake and I hadn't. You mentioned Unshu before, which is not a Shotokan kata, nor just a different spelling of Unsu. It is a different kata, I believe from Shito-Ryu, not Shotokan. The movements and embusen of the 2 kata are completely different.

As for the response I refrained from, "Clearly you are an idiot!"

There it is......this just made my whole night, LOL.

you know I can settle this here and now.

drop you daks, I have a tape measure

hey Perry mason,

maybe you need a thicker pair of glasses or atleast some more karate training.

if you could read this post,not only did i mention that unshu kata being okinawan,i also explained the difference between okinawan version being real karate with damaging waza and the unsu sport version of shotokan.where the strikes in the shotokan version would damage the practioner more than the opponent.

smile for camera john.you just got smoked.

Are we having fun yet?unsu ['unshu'] is a shito-ryu kata, another kata changed by funakoshi for japanese consumption..
dont know the kata myself.. for shotokan check out nakayama or his top
student kanazawa..
the bunkai shown at tournaments is only one oyoshimasu and may not be what you would think of as the 'main' or best'
appplication.. still, showing the mind a real use, will, result in a different and better appreciation for the waza and for
'everything' related to training the kata and karate itself.. bear in mind tho that what is demonstrated for tournaments
by shotokan will not be the most realistic meaning.. eg the first strike in unshu after the ko uke is aippon nukite 'one finger
penetrating hand' shown in the kata striking about lower rib level.. someone who has really trained real karate for decades
including serious conditioning may be able to use one finger to the ribs for some effect, but a student today trying to strike
fast [as shown] to hard body targets will most likely damage their finger..
to me a realistic meaning would be the ko uke followed by pulling back that hand - to show controlling him and his momentum
coming toward your throat by pulling pack with his movement, thus drawing him forward and slightly off balance which,
will cause him to raise his head, now at lower level, for the following nukite to his eye orbit or exposed carotid artery..
real karate is not for playing games.. these waza are not for casual use.. thus funakoshi etc changed the meanings

another meaning you might like to and go thru , might be response to being grabbed by the wrist
response being to bend the wrist strongly as you raise it [with his arm] with good tension, then immediately draw the captured
hand down and in [escaping between his thumb and index finger], which is also shown in the shito ryu original kata with its
obvious pulling back after the ko type opening uke.. dont quote me but it is probably 'keito' or 'chicken head wrist'..
[in goju 'kakato' or shortened to 'ko' uke woiuld probably be used in that example]
goju kata 'shisochin' starts with a more or less similar waza and movement, with the nekoashi position in unshu 'hidden'
within the step to sanchin dachi, and with the same 'shuto' hand form [with subtle differences] for the double uke
followed by pull back and strike with nukite, also, shown to about ribs level.. [in my shodan grading i was the first asked to
show that bunkai and its oyoshimasu, with daisensei standing and a grading panel at the table and all the shodan canditates
and sundry sensei skulling about watching, including my sensei..
well, i thought [rude word] this, must not let sensei down here, i'll show the real meaning..
so [he attacks with a good solid strike to about throat level, theres another clue, i step aside a little, off his center,
parrying his strike and maintaining contact, letting go a good fast nukite right into his carotid artery between oesophagus
and muscle etc.. showing, of course, full control.. silence..


you may want to use a steriod cream for your booty.its smokin.

ahhhhhhhh zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Iaibear,
nothing coded sir,all in pain site.

only the young pups need to sniff each others rear ends.the old boys can just tell.

they can also recognize a pretender right away.they just dont move right.

Mr Zombie,

you asked for peace,im willing to do that but, the name calling like idiot and troll need to stop as well.
I have yet to directly call anyone a name on here.


matt;
figure it out.you havent been very nice to me,so im not offering you anymore than what i did.

im sorry if i missed anuyone,just apply what i said to john and matt to yourself and it will probably suffice.

peace out homies

This...

...immediately followed by this...

...amused me.

one last note, im putting this on its own post so it dont get overlooked.

Keep in mind, i never said i was a karate expert,i said i have some goju experience and some shotokan knowledge.all i said was the heel stamp is the most powerful punch.

so i would like one of you rocket scientist to show how or why you feel im being a troll.now if i claimed to be a karate expert and then said some erronious stuff or didnt know my kata then i would be a troll.

Im an aikido guy.never claimed to be a karate guy.

nor have i claimed to be a special forces soldier,

nor have i claimed to be a guru or anything else for that matter.
just a guy who gave his opinion.

you experts initiated the entire confrontation.and your not fairing very well so your resorting to calling names.

very mature."your an idiot paul" "yeh and and and and a troll"

i smell candy.

that whole dak dropping thing,

remember,john,magon,and jason, this is a put or shutup challenge,

dont claim to be porn stars if you cant put a dent in your underwear ok?

doesnt seem like they were opinions, more like you were making statements like they were facts.

"heel stamp is the most powerful punch"

I'm still wondering how you came to this conclusion?

And then some! I have to admit that you demonstrably surpassed Cord... By having the most posts in the last 30 days!
But as to content, though...

First rule of the internet: Don't feed the trolls!

that is a fact.i think i attempted to explain that too.eliminating recoil stuff.

i said i was an aikido practioner too ,thats a fact,i said i was a self defence teacher another fact.

i explained kata .this was interpretation.

i explained why i think pepper spray is good, thats opinion

so in the context of that , i would have to say i gave my opinion.maybe i should label all of my thoughts individually.i have given many opinions ,many facts, many interpretations.

thats called a conversation or interview.

if i am being held to every statement i make as a fact that would be called a trial.or an inquiry.

the fact i clearly stated im not a karate expert at the beginning and several times since would show that i dont consider myself a karate expert therefore my statements would mostly be opinion or interpretation.

i did however make one statement on the karate issue,that being the heel stamp being the most powerful punch.this would be considered a fact.the rest has been pretty much opinion.

well there was that whole kata name issue to.but those were facts as well.unshu, unsu.

check your box

So how does everyone's training tend to break down practicing technique and hitting pads and bags?

Our class time tends to focus on technique mostly through kihon and kata, then we have half an hour at the end of class with which to hit the bag, or break up into pairs and do pad work as we like. I would like to have a bit more pad work during class time though.

Remember people...the only way to defeat a troll is don't feed it!

In our savate classes, rather than use focus pads, we just use our gloves - savate gloves have padding in the palm, as some of the redirections and parries are open handed, almost 'cuffing' the oponents leg to unbalance and create openings.

This padding also means that in technique training, you can have fluid and dynamic pad work drills, like hard sparring, but targetting the gloves of your partner, wherever they are placed.

We only use the heavy bag in stand alone conditioning sessions, the skill training sessions are always kept mobile and partner/oponent oriented.

you could always attempt to prove im a troll too.

which 10 of you seem to be failing miserably at.

btw, im posting more than cord because everyone is talking to me not him.

what kata do you do gibb? please explain the bunkai to me, your oyo of the kata ad the numbered segments to each integral part.also the two man variation and possibly the sport application as opposed to the non sport.

what kind of bag do you hit and why? what is the significance of contacting the bag in relation to the waza in your kata?how do you engrain your punching technique into your kata?

take me to your dojo.

prove im a troll.or prove yourself to be one.

stop shootin your mouth off gibb and throw down.

What are your thoughts on Gerrit Badenhorst Paul?

I think this is one of the problems with Shotokan...the length of time it takes to get to this stage is a bit too long. I'm lucky in my class in that I'm the only lower ranked student, so I get to do a fair bit of pair drilling that I wouldn't do otherwise, appart from the bog standard kumite drills. I think the fundamentals of shotokan are good, but sometimes the training can be a bit too slow and a bit too repetative if the sylabus is followed to the letter. Too much technique and not enough application. I do think I have a good teacher though who strikes a better balance.

Edit: Just like to add as well...I don't mean application in the kata bunkai sense, as I don't see that as being all that useful for lower ranks like myself, I mean application in a sparring sense...blocking, moving in, retreating etc. more practical stuff as I see it.

I think the balance between practicing technique for its own reward and application is a struggle that many arts and individual teachers must make right for themselves.

The idea of Kata, as they exist, being directly relevant to application against an unscripted oponent is probably one of the most divisive argumemts in Martial arts, and a fine example of disagreement about where the balance should lie.

In our savate classes, we are always drilling combo's and variations of strikes that tend to lend and lead to one another, and boxers, having assessed tape footage of an oponent, will drill certain combinations, or specific ranges that they believe will 'crack the safe' of the oponents attributes/style.

Is this any different to the principles behind kata?

I dont think that technique and application should be taught in vacuum's however. If supervised and used properly (as you would hope to take as read in any MA class), application can be a great tool for self learning, and self realisation. Nothing tells you your footwork is off better than being caught off balance with a punch, or up-ending yourself with a kick gone wrong.
Application is really when you get to 'feel' if you are doing things right, as opposed to being told you are doing things right in a more abstract setting.

Man, you ain't kidding.

if you dont know the bunkai to your kata,you dont understand the kata.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa31yCvqBp8

never heard of him

Fortunately, as you are not an expert, or practitioner of Karate, your opinion on this can be taken for what it's worth.

Any 'deeper' info on the benefit of board breaking as promised, and as relevant to the thread?

Any response to the invite to the next get together?

Any chance of a bio, or a link to your school, or even your claimed name on bullshido, so as to give some context to your posts? How about the association you judge competitions for?

For an aikidoka, you sure do talk a lot about karate, is that because you can spell the terminology correctly?

Cord,
I like the idea of using the padded gloves for "focus pad" type drills. But, if you guys are blocking kicks regularly with open hands, do you find that you have alot of broken/jammed fingers as a result? We generally use/teach a closed fist when blocking all kicks, most particularly during a downward block, to avoid such finger injuries...especially with beginners and sparring.

edit - I thought about it. you might not ever have that issue if you're not ever sparring/practicing w/o the gloves. So, this may be only a philosophical question.

The heel stamp cannot be the most powerful punch, if it's only one part of a punch technique. You cannot get around that, and therefore it is not a fact.

If the heel stamp you refer to is a punch, the please describe the entire technique used to achieve this most powerful status.

The nice thing about my training now, is it's all about conditioning and hitting stuff. These days I know more about technique than my body can do anymore so I am learning to adapt to my ability, which is actually interesting as it is frustrating.

Generally, we start off with some cardio, then drills. All the drills are pretty much bag/mitts type work with some attention to technique, combos etc.

The we spar. That is it.

If I were running the class, I would spend more time on finite technique training (the neck up stuff) if only because when I look around I see a lot of small but correctable mistakes.

But I am not the instructor, I am just there to bang...and there is nothing I enjoy more, then knocking the bejesus out of stuff!

To the thread though, I think technique work off bag, is very important, especially when you are starting out. I think the bag is where you go to flesh out the technique, blend the motion with some feedback, which then leads to fighting and bringing it all together.

Even if you are a long time MA, non bag basics are a great way to stay grounded in the basics and to make sure you aren't drifting from good form. It's a way to practice it perfect, so when you get to the bag or to a fight, your fundamentals keep your form as close to correct as you can in an alive setting.

At the moment in my training I dont beleive technique is the most important thing. Timing,intent and oppurtunity are more important. Having fundamentals down is important but during a situation the fundamentals will be messy and scrappy and not perfect. Fundamentals are almost imperfect in a classical martial arts veiw,and give the ability to hit in imperfect situations. For example going backwards,having just covered a heavy shot, after stepping off..maybe after messily escaping a clinch.etc etc Violence is imperfect and messy.

A heel stomp could be powerful against a 4 year old standing there but nothing against another skilled athlete who moves and responds aggresivily. The most powerfull punch then is the one you get the timing to do, the one you use at the right oppurtunity and the one you realy mean to do damage with no matter what. It could be any technique but it will come out of the fundamental movement best suited for that very second.

The gloves in question are essentialy identicle to queensbury boxing gloves, just with this extra articulation that allows cuffing, or patting down of strikes.
It is a more advanced response to a strike, but it is remarkably effective for 'deadening' the power in the strike you are recieving, and/or throwing an oponent off balance, as you can actually add to the power - eg. you recieve a roundkick, and instead of absorbing it on your arms in guard, you move your target out of range, whilst helping the kick to travel beyond its intention with an open hand cuff. Now your oponent's back is exposed, and in Savate, that's miller time

Not easy, and with bare hands/different gloves, definately a world of splinted ouch. Happens in savate despite the gloves too, but if you have the reactions to use this element of the style, it sure does help you make your own openings.

Matrix-

I agree fighting is messy, but that is even more reason to work on technique, you don't want to start sloppy, even if in the end you may end up that way.

That's not to say technique is the most important thing at any given phase of training. Just something that even the most experienced fighters should incorporate on some level.

That said, I am totally away from it at this point, but that is because I am really at a stage where I just want to enjoy myself and break a nice sweat. I am sure in the future I will revisit some basics...I might even do a a Kata or two:::trembles at the thought:::

Hear, hear.

what kind of of an administrator intentionally continues to flame a fire that zombie would like to see distinguished?


further more i did explain board breaking in alot of detail.remember i used the example of learning how to operate heavy equipment.

the heel stamp is a punch that follows a block from an advancing attack.block ,then heel stamp counter punch to the body ONLY to a vital area.so its not only for people cords size.

as far`as me talking karate instead of aikido.i tried talking aikido that went way over your head,but anyitme you want to challenge that background ,go read wiki and let her rip

So the heel stamp is a reverse punch in a front stance?

as for the ONLY to a vital area, that's nice to hope for, but in practice punches land where they land. Aiming ain't hitting.

In Olympic style TKd we train our kicks in four stages.

Stage one: Air kicking; this allows the practitioner to learn the mechanics of the kick. No need to worry about an obstacle or target. They can focus on balance.

Stage two: Bag work; Once the student has the mechanics down, they can now start working on power and intention. Once students master air kicking they feel they've mastered the kick. Until the realization of a target comes into play. Technique becomes more important now because if your toes are curled back enough, or your kicking with the wrong part of the instead. You will feel a correction. Also the psychology of actually kicking a solid object changes. Once you begin kicking a bag you grow more confident in your kicks.

Stage three: Focus mitts; this portion helps with footwork and balance has you have to judge the spatial relationship between you and your target and adjust your mechanics accordingly.

Stage four: Hogu/body shield drills; These are done wearing chest protections and kicking drills done with an actual opponent. This is where you begine to put everything together: technique, balance, distance, focus and footwork. This is the final stage before free sparring. The purpose here unlike target kicking is to attack a live opponent, kicking actual target areas, and adjusting to actual combat.

This is why we use air drills, heavy bag drills, focus mitts and one on one full contact drills. All these targets are useful steps in our approach to combat.

And this is just how we train our kicks alone. But you can see how it relates to boxing.

Tek9, you're correct. In fact, I knew an ITF senior black belts who didn't get their technique down properly, and they only focused on power. I suspect he never had the talent for properly kicking even a high side kick, but there you go.

Technique first, then speed and power.

That was it? Breaking boards is a tool for ingraining correct strike technique in your CNS? Thats your in depth response. Wow. Cheers for that.

As many extreme/advanced board breaks are done from above to below, with a verticle punch or a shuto/forearm strike, and this movement is never used directly in stand up striking, how would this ingrain positive NMC and improved power in a normal fighting strike?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIUmfXXe0v4

Dont worry, I know you are not sure, as you are not a striker/fighter, just thought I would give you something to think about.



So its a short straight to the bread basket. Nobody ever did that before shotokan, thats for sure



You're the wiki fan, remember? So just so I know, your Aikido talk is going to consist of bad analogy, functional illiteracy, and 'using the jedi'?
Terrific.

It is interesting however, that your big slabs of text on bunkai do not have such trouble with spelling, and are devoid of your 'idiotsyncracies'
Copy and paste is a joy isnt it? But from what source? Hmmm..........

Oh, any response to the invite to the next get together? Any chance of a Bio, or your Bullshido credentials? Seems strange that, with kids to raise, ditches to dig, comps to judge, the Nations finest to make lethal, and women to dish out irritants to (fitting) , that you would find time to moderate a site and be a second site's most prolific poster.

my god cord,your getting worse every post now.

you seriously dont understand anything.i have never seen anyone misunderstand anything this much in my life.

lets see;
board breaking is only straight down? excellent rebuttal

unable to grasp concept of how your mind learns throught repative motion and feeback.somehow found a way to take that to the playground.

this is a classic.
the heel stamp is a short punch to the break basket,nobody else ever thought of that before shotokan.
you just dont get it do you? you seem to only be able to comprehend the last word you read before you respond.can you show me where i said, the heel stamp is just some short range punch to the tummy?

like i said jr, if you can find what i typed in those post in wiki or better yet,find out how i was able to find something that matched what we were talking about to a tee.ill dive in and start swimming.

put up or shutup cord. prove i cut and pasted that,

maybe i hung that pinata just out of your reach because i know you will keep swinging at it.if i would have known your limitations i would have just laid it on the ground.

your really not any fun to argue with.evrything you throw at me gets gift rapped and thrown back in your lap.

unless you can muster some intelligence in your rebuttals,please stop wasting my time dude.

zombie, asked for this to settle down, but as usual you cant let it go and you continue your childish flaming.everytme you get up ,you just get knocked back down again.

give up dude,you will never get on top.

im not revealing my name on bullshido.im not going to have a guy like you show and and start shootting your mouth off to me there.actually i should ,they would have a hayday with you.ninjaboy.

where is the next get together?and when?where was the last one? who attended? why are you inviting me? are you act
ing like master jules and challenging me to fight if i go to the club he bounces at?


and finally cord,the time i spend doing this is quit minimal.i seldom edit my post,i dont even know how to do quotes. one thing i noticed on these forums full of pretenders.the more professional the post are the more full of sh4t the member is.i seen a post where you did like 5 quotes and put them inside of each other.i hardly use punctuation.

you remind me of the 5 ft man who drives a monster truck.
i dont need to compensate for my lack of .........whatever your short with. comic books, video games at 35,tatoos,body building.but then you come here and try to impress the masses with a vocabulary,professional post layout,whit an candor,and rebuttal abilty.

donkey in a tuxedo.screaming for attention.

you dont impress me.any admin. man who wont stop flaming a fire after the owner asked for it to settle down isnt much.


challenge my aikido experience anyway you want.im waiting.

kimo.

the heel stamp is a reverse punch from a forward stance,the punch comes from the short side though,the back foot is the drive foot.there isnt any body weight distribution from to back,the punch energy begins at the floor.this is not a body weight punch.the drive of the hip is the only weight distribution.and thats more of a joint snap than a weight drive.

at 1:32 of this video is an example of the heel stamp punch,this is application.the stance is deeper than what would be trained in the kata

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKXrATefSQ

This from the guy who thinks I am the administrator and ZombieZero is the owner.




That would be an awful response, so I am delighted its not what I said.



ooh lovely, you want to talk CNS physiology? Muscular proprioception? My world baby. Go on, go deep



Er, right there in your last post. If you dont mean it, dont say it.



You just spammed bunkai in response to specific questions. You were as specific as a nail bomb.



I dont need to. Your continued unscripted illiteracy betrays you.



Or maybe you are just a dolt.



You are clearly not getting the same PM's as I am, even from members who I have no great affinity with.



How do you even hear them when 'the lion sleeps' so much?



Er, no, ZZ asked you to settle down. Big difference.



The chasm between how you see things and how things are is huge.



You think I would 'stalk' you on another forum!!?? You are taking this way more seriously than me cupcake.



Why? Already answered:


The only threat or risk in your attendance is living up to your words.



Right, because real MAists are all knuckle dragging illiterate fighters right?



Yes, because referring to de-escalatory psychology as 'doing the jedi' is by far a more mature outlook



Damn me and my physical conditioning, my linguistic knowledge, familiarity with use of computers, my honesty and my ability to argue logicaly!!!
I feel so inferior to you now. Good job Aslan



Where once you were amusing, your lack of variety is now creating nothing but apathy. As always, an A for effort re. trolling, but your content marks are slipping terribly. Make me bored and the game ends.




[/quote]

zz asked me to settle down.so its ok for you to stand behind him and throw cheap shots.my little brother used to do that.
childish.

you are listed as a mod and you refernced zz as the top dog
i never used the word owner and if i did i dont remember,

the board breaking issue.you did use the breaking issue as being vertical and non practical for your crap rebuttal.
so choke on it

your the phsiology expert. lets here your rebuttal of why my explanation is bogus, bubble biter.

i said the heel stamp was a body punch to vital organs,you flew your little ignorance jet into that and referenced the bread basket ,with your childish rebuttal


no jr, you cant put up or you would,you dont strike me as a person who wont use all your weapons.unfortunalty all you have is an empty squirt gun.

as far as your pm,s are those from the guys who showed up shot there mouths off, got whooped and disappeared?like the special farces guy or the guy who studied shotokan for 30 years and never heard of unsu?

im not grandstanding here cord, thats your game.im gong right at you ,not putting on a play.which as an actor is all your capable of.

how do i hear anything because lions sleep too much?awesome.very professional.kid stuff again


you never specified anything about your little get together.where when who was there?

What's the japanese name of this heal stamp by the way? I'll ask my teacher about it.

i dont know gib.im not a shotokan expert ,this is the problem with learning from correspondence,sometimes it just gets explained in english when your an american.and not a an actual student,

when i hear something from a guy who has 7 actually earned stripes on his belt.i tend to just listen to what he is saying,i seldom act childishly and ask him to prove it.

Perhaps you'd be so good as to search through your correspondance and find the name? I'd really love to get a demo of the most powerful punch eva from my teacher.

that'd sure be awesome to see

heel stamp bottom line is not THE most powerful punch in creation

get your facts straight


i think you were the first one to mention hyenas and lions...

Then you are a dismal student. Scepticism is a major part of useful learning.

Which means you are using torque to generate additional acceleration. Body weight is still in play, but by definition you are not using any dynamic force (moving) to increase the mass, which by definition would mean this cannot be the most powerful punch you could throw.

That does not mean it's not a good or useful technique, or powerful in it's own right, especially if other factors are executed well, but by leaving things on the table that could increase your mass, and/or acceleration, you cannot conclude this to be the MOST powerful punch.

I could name a few ways to increase the power, without much effort. If the striker launched forward, if the victim was moving forward, locking in, breath, more coil in the arm, have a big pot of soup...

Also, the deference to stripes on a belt has been an achillies heal for TMA for a very long time. The reason we ask for proof is too many people have wrapped a belt around their waste that have never actually fought. They have simply regurgitated what they were taught by their instructor, or their instructors instructor and no one in the system dares to challenge the great master.

Another achillies heal is the in many TMA's, they become very good and fighting each other within the system. That's great until someone comes along who doesn't care about your system.

I say this in your response where you mention "when see a man with 7 earned stripes" if they are earned, that's great. But nobody's word should be taken as law, without something to support it. Maybe the great master shouldn't be asked to prove himself over and over, but there should be a student who can step up to the task.

Proof of the Pudding is in the eating, nothing childish about demanding teachers be able to prove what they are claiming.

Well Paul, I wasn't gonna respond to you but since you have called me out by name I thought I would.

There have been a few gatherings. The big one is in New Jersey. I was at the last one and gawd I hope you make it to the next one, if we have it this year. I think you will be in for a rude awakening.

Note: will stop feeding the trolls now!

Paul -



This is humorous to me on several fronts - Bullshido members had a habit of targeting this and other forums for trolling attacks, so the thought that one of their mods is afraid of us is ZOMGLMFAO. I actually give Phrost credit, as he has made a lot of positive changes in tone and tech, to that forum. They didn't even used to have any trad art forums, and the mere mention of any TMA or RBSD was cause for instant harassment there.



http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbth...true#Post355626

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381994&page=3

Paul -

I believe now is the time for you to put up or shut up.

You see we have a get together and I am sure you would be welcomed to attend. :-)

There are chances to even share your art with the group. I can't see it being a problem for you to share shotokan, Aikido, Goju for us.

Quite honestly, this flame war is worse than the TaeKwonDo wars. Why don't you all just agree to disagree and be done with that.

Why do the TKD guys get to have all the fun!

If you can equate hatred with fun, then yes, we have fun. Same with the Aikido grand senseis during their wars, and, undoubtedly, same with the many grand senseis when their founding grandmaster died and they went their seperate ways, filled with acrimony and bitterness.

Fun? Sure it's fun. That's why I avoided the politics. Quite frankly, despite my WTF 1 dan, that's why I have decided not to go for my 2nd dan at the Kukkiwon.

Yawn

I am officialy bored of Paul40. Type what you like Obi Wan, its all toss anyway, and will be seen as such without me pointing it out.

The real lion sleeps, and means it

MODERATORS!

Is it time to close this thread???

Nope. No reason to. Hopefully the next posts will be overflowing with on topic discussion.

The one thing that is common to all inanimate target training is that it can, if done incorrectly, lead to bad habits regarding defence. Time and again you will see people slugging a bag, or lining up a break with no thought whatsoever to guard or head position. Again, this is where focus pad training can be superior, as the holder of the pads can 'return fire' should they see such bad habits/loss of form appearing.

I agree. I work on the bag, but there's nothing like a holder of a pad who can give you feedback, of all kinds.

TKD and most other martial arts should be teamwork. First, the kicker/hitter will practice, and his partner will help him, and then they switch places. In this way, a school spirit will develop.

I agree. Another reason I like those gloves you mentioned cord. With the padding in the palm. You can both strike at the palm while the other strikes back, etc.

Well I for one am not done, Paul has put forth his idea of the powerful punch, which I think using math and not personal attacks demonstrated his assertion is incorrect.

So far he has responded to my posts in an appropriate way, so I'd like to hear his response to my latest.

As for the other posts, maybe we can choose to say nothing if a flame is all that comes to mind, and let the thread die it's natural death.

what do you think about arts that do partnered drills and do not rely on pads, like in many CMA's and also Kali sinawalis and flow drills?

I think that is a great point. IMHO, the "dynamic stability" one can learn from target pad work like what Cord is referring to is superior to that which comes from more isolated stance practice, and other non-resistance training modes.

Well, having done panantukan in Doce Pares eskrima, I think that these things address different elements of skill, being sensitivity, maintaining control of the centre line, and reaction times. In this way, I find their emphasis largely different to target work, but no less valid. Not sure how long a class would last with hard contact bare knuckle panatukan, makes my nose hurt just thinking about it

As for the stick work (sinawali, the heavens etc) I think it is a good way of learning the angles of strikes and defence, but in sparring of any intensity with stick work, it really does just come down to who can overpower the other with speed and ferocity. The chance of a clean disarm comes along all to seldom, so finess tends to take a back seat. The angles learned in the drills do help make the most of your strikes though.

As for CMA/Internal arts, I used to have a very closed mind, especially regarding power generation, but through various discussions and explanations given by Gavin, and Bossman way way back, I have come to see things like Push hands in tai chi as a form of functional core training, with a big chunk of specificity thrown in. So while some use pilates, or medicine ball work, or swiss ball work, and uneven load lifts, 'internal' practitioners address the same performance enhancing musculoskeletal systems in their own way, and use their own terminology to explain what they are harnessing/improving.
In both eastern and western methods, the focus of their training is sound, so who's to argue

Technique definitly has to be worked and fundamental movement yet not to the point where all any one has is great technique.
If they dont have the timing to apply it or the intent to use it or use the oppurtunitys then what technique they do have is useless. Its like having a great,fast ,smooth moving car with no wheels. It just sits in the garage and eveyone looks at it. Like hitting a bag with just great technique.

Cord,
I agree with you on the bad form used most of the time when breaking board or whatever. But, I also do see reasonable use from breaking, just in moderation.

I would think the best analory would be doing max weight bench presses or something like that. It's better to do a more of them with a controllable weight. But, sometimes it's good to just see where you stand, what your max potential power is. I think you can use breaking for that. That's not to say you should use bad form when doing it, just like you wouldn't want to use bad lifting form. But stil usefull confidence builder, etc.

That's fair enough J, and its not so much 'bad' form I was referring to, more that the strikes often used in the most extreme feats of breaking are performed in such a way, and at such an angle, as to not relate to any strike you would ever use in the art.

So in that sense, I equate it more to every onece in a while doing a max clean and jerk and from there using the findings to bolster confidence in your bench, when they are 2 completely different things, with inherently different biomechanics and muscles used.

I see no problem with breaking as a persuit in and of itself, but if you are going to spend time increasing your performance in a verticle dropping smash of concrete blocks, whilst your next oponent spends this time on sparring and conditioning, I just think he will step on to the mat the better prepared fighter.

I would prefer my confidence to come from that, but as was discussed earlier, its a personal balance and preference. Indeed, it is the lack of absolutes and 'bests' in the martial community that make them 'arts' and not a sciences.

i sit here and read these post,its hard to believe the teaching of martial arts is declining so rapidly.Instead of listening and learning, this group of younger students for4m todays generation dont listen to anybody.You guys are always smarter than the guy talking to you.You always find your selves in a position to question everything,instraed of respectfully and humbly learning.

somebody said its almost expected to question your senei,god forbid this would have been true.I couldnt imagine asking my sensei,a man of 50 plus years of training to prove something to me.or question what he was telling me.

Another problem with this generaqtion is they see martial arts as some buffet table.a sampler plate that you can sample a little of each and then become some expert on the style.

i get a kick out these guys who tell you, they took this and that and then act like they could use it effectively.

Ive spent 26 tears studying with one guy.this guy also happnes to be a high rank in two styles.I will promise you i have had more exposure to karate jusat from being around him then you boys who went to the buffet table.

Then i run into the college students or grads, these are the smartest people alive because they went to college.they know more than every one about everything.

this is one of the most poorly trained group of forum ninjas ive ever seen.i dont see any deep years in anyone here.just samplers, and mostly low ranks.beginners

90 percent of the tradtionally taught specific waza of the tma cannot be found on wiki.there are no scientific formulas,that make up there waza,its all common sence and YEARS NOT WEEKS of training.

not everything is available to you know it alls like you think it is.you judge a book by its cover.The true grandmasters didnt lay on anything on the table for people to just come and take.it must be learned and it must be learned systematically not bits and pieces harvested by thr know it alls who think there capable of just taking what they feel is important and leaving the rest as useless info.

The reality is your missing everything that is important by only taking what your not willing to work for.why do i have to train a certain stance when i can get the same training without it? or kata is worthless and a waste of time.it has nothing to do with real life situations.

these are all the things that make tma,s what they are and the core reaon why todays generation doenst feel there useful.they are simply not willing to put in the time to learn the important stuff.

its not microwavable therefore its a waste of there valuable time.

What gets me is this generation of fight kings,have never been able to develope anything as complex as a tma.only harvested techniques from the tma without the curriculm.as if there smarter than the great grandmasters.who has this all this wasted garbage.

Instead of taking there techniques why not create your own?or develope a style that will become something people pay to learn 100 years from now?this isnt happening because there isnt anyon e capable of it . or there would be.

the last curricul based style develpoed was tkd.this is the prime example of the weakening of the arts.


If a 60 year old man with 50 years training from the old world of giants.tells me a certain punch is the most powerful punch then i was just told what the most powerful punch was.
I didnt question it and i wouldnt question it.he showed me why and he didnt use a calculator to prove it.we didnt use calculators, we used chest protectors.not everything is in a book with scientific calculations.it was judged by how long it took you to catch your breath after impact.

power wasnt measured by how far you flew.
when hit with true power, only the area of impact moves.the hardest real punch wont even move the opponent.until he falls down from the damage.not the impact.

there is a world out there you boys dont and will never understand.simply because you dont think its exists. this is the secret of tma.they put it on a cliff for a reason and theres only one way to get to it.

there are also some parts in china especially the shaolin kung fu families who have never taught there art to anyone.the only outsiders ever taught were hand picked by the grand master after a process of elimination.

they start with 100 students,.from those 100, 10 are selected to be students sent to a lesser place of training.2 of them after observing for some time will be sent back to the grandmaster,.he will then observe these two for as much time as needed to pick the one he wants.this one will live with the grandmaster.he does everything for the grandmaster.almost as a slave.the other is sent away for good.

they pick this one person for many reasons, he must be humble. number one.which means he dont sit and question the grandmaster,he also has to be trusted to never teach there art outside of the family.they dont ever want there art beinbg taught on the street to a bunch of experts who will mess it all up.

this is a true story told to me by my acupunturist.who is one not quiet a grandmaster yet.but getting close.he left the family to become a doctor.but still trains with the family when he gets back to china.

Dr sam chin shaumburg il.for all you prove it boys.

I have yet to here one person talk there art on this forum with any real engrained knowledge.just buffet table talk.doubters who dont have a clue what there talking about.

i put those kata posts up searching for one person who could read them,not one person was able to.

i then put up a post about why breaking was important. not one person was able to read that.you boys alway revert back to your buffet table training.i hit pads because its better garbage.

one guy pulled his calculator out and proved why the heel stamp isnt the strongest punch.lol.stand in front of a guy who can do it, and when you get the color back in your face ill ask you again.this is how i learned it.

cord; i bore you ?

paaaaaaaalease.

you have nothing to offer.just buffet table and google ninja info.

no edit for corrections

Funny, you told me you learned it from correspondance, which is why you don't know the name of it in Japanese.....

I know I'm feeding the troll...but he's such a feeble troll he's almost cute! I vote to keep him so we have someone to play with.

oh theres a vote now?


cor·re·spon·dence (kôr-spndns, kr-)
n.
1. The act, fact, or state of agreeing or conforming.
2. Similarity or analogy.
3.
a. Communication by the exchange of letters.
b. The letters written or received.


i think this would be the exact definition of not training it but having someone tell me about it and then knock the wind out of me with it.

i also think this could be an example of why i dont know the name.wouldnt you gib? nice rebuttal,did you and cord go to the same school?

next

btw gib,

that isnt diaper rash your feeling.:)

So he wrote some letters to you about it and then came round and punched you? What an odd person you are!

He is isn't he?

He side steps and talks in circle it is hard to even read. He watched to many black belt/kung fu theatre shows as a kid. Or wait, he is a kid and still watching them.

He is soo blinded by his own ego he doesn't know the true knowledge and experience on this site. I know some since I got a chance to meet and train with them.

I believe that one should always question and seek the truth. That is their relative truth. Just because someone started training at 10 and done so into his 60's doesn't make him/her the know all be all. They aren’t perfect. They could have in fact been doing it wrong for 60 years, who knows.

Back in my karate days I would have never questioned my sensei directly but in a way with respect. But I was young and really never questioned anything. It wasn't until this boy became a man that I learned to question and seeks the truth.

Paul is funny, to take to heart the word of one person. My sensei is great in his art but I sure wasn't going to take to heart his advice on power lifting. I would seek out the most qualified person for that certain skill set.

I know I am feeding the "troll" but he is funny.
Btw Paul. I think I figured out who you are on bullshido. You were greeted as warmly there as here...

Ya know, I would think if one is hit with the more powerful punch that tha person wouldn't be around to talk about it. hmmm...Funny how Paul i here today. lol

and ther he goes copying from the web again. Which he does so well.

jason., that was maybe the weakest post ive ever seen.

yeh i put the exact definition of a word on here. does this create something for you. i see you totally avoided anything of substance and displayed some more of your special farces techniques>

i can see why you dont like definitions posted.its like a fat girl wearing a tight dress for you.reveals all the stuff your trying to cover up.

smack.

jason
didnt you mean to say , back in your karate sampling days?you didnt take karate for any amount of time and if you did it wasnt very well taught.

btw ,did you figure out the rangers were one of the elite special forces units yet?

whats my name on bullshido? dont just make a baseless comment without some substance.im still there. actually i have a screen up right now.working over another google ninja. like yourself

I love it when trolls try to act all tough...it's adorable!

Why should I tell you who u are when you won't even admit it...

Well, feel free to visit my old school anytime and tell my old sensei it wasn't well taught.

http://westenddojo.tripod.com/index.html

I am sure they would be more than happy to let you try a class.

Wait, you want substance in a post and yet to supply the same amount in yours? NOTHING!

And the ranger, SF was answered. I do believe I said Rangers and SF do totally different missions.

oh and you were invited to the next forum get together but yet you avoided haven't you?

so that would be a sort of target training? Because there is contact, even though you might not be striking as hard as you could be.


though Push hands would be a partnered drill, I wouldnt consider it to fall into target practice. Thats all about developing sensitivity.

I was referring maybe to more "hard" types of CMA (though I'm sure softer ones aren't excluded completely) that practice 2 man sets that involve more contact (kind of like a sinawali). For example



though there could be more than just target practice in these drills. The 1st clip I could definitely see more reaction time needed than the 2nd. But we're talking about targets.

people also thought that the earth was flat and the center of the universe because they didnt question



yea cuz none of us here train in TMA...

LMAO. Good spot!

jason you didnt answer anythin g, you said the rangers were not special forces.now you say they do different missions than the special forces,,this is the same as saying there not special forces.duh.and your still wrong.they are one of the elite special forces units.which means whatever mission they do is a special forces mission.duh.

excalibur.i have not responded disrespectfully to you yet.,although you are teeing off at will but,

the world being flat in relation to not disrespecting your sensei by questioning his teaching. really? thats almost cord like.


ummm the edit thing,
i went back and added something, i didnt correct anything.
WOW.good point you made there. SOLID.


is cord the rebuttal director here? i see a pattern

jason i would love to talk to your instructor. invite him here.maybe he can read my bunkai post.i would love to here his take on you too.

Paul -



What do you mean by "curricul based" style? Why do you consider this a "weakening of the arts"?

curriculum based matt.i said i didnt edit for errors.

curriculum would be like technique drills that will be added to kata ,then that kata added to the next kata,etc.



btw , this is hilarious, the only guy with any real true in depth martial arts experience on the forum is on notice.


i told you to ban me if you feel im a troll.my life wont change if i can log onto this site.if you can pull 16 pages without me on one topic have at it.

actually if you know it alls would stop trying to desperatly to prove im a troll i could probably generate some real martial artist instead of a bunch of novice forum ninjas.

the weakening was all explained in the first post,it was what the entire post was about,taking out all of the stuff that seems unimportant because it takes too long to learn.only harvesting what seems most valuable.

this is whats killing the tma,s no one is willing to take the time to learn whats not immedialty apparent.not willing to work for aomething that cant see.

So, would you consider something like American kenpo or Jeet Kune Do to not be curriculum based?

To be clear, you can be a green beret (special forces) and not be ranger. Again, when I was assigned to 7th group at Ft Bragg there were countless SF guys that weren't ranger qualified. Rangers get probably more dirty than SF guys. Meaning they are geared and ready to go where as the SF guys specialized in the language of the area they cover. Like 7th is south america and 3rd group is Middle east, I believe. Again, the ranger aren't specialized that like.

Oh, you won't get to ill thoughts from my sensei. And you are the one claiming the instructions was poor or whatever, so you should be the one to travel and seek him out. You talk lots of chit but area afraid to back it.

Ok, I will bite.

Are you saying that "curriculum" based is the fact that the style is making up their own kata? by adding on to an existing one?

oh and where do you train. I have no problem visiting to learn your "secret" ninja self defense, stamp heel, thrust move!

no jason i wouldnt consider jkd or american kenpo in the same sentance with tma.jkd was mr lees, sport fighting style he created.not a tma nor was is considered to be by him.
american kenpo? enough said.

your still way off on your special farces garbage.rangers are a special force unit and one of the elite, case closed.

yes tma,s have developed kata that is an incorporation of there drilled waza.that is in a sence layered and structured as the center piece of there style.the text book.in whcih chapter one must flow into chapter 2 and so on,you cant go read chapter 6 and learn the technique without the integral parts of the previous chapters.

First, I didn't ask about JKD and Kenpo, that was Matt.

Second, if you haven't served in a ranger unit, SF unit you can't have an opinion. So you are right, definitely case closed.

Third, you didn't really answer my question. I asked if you meant that the Kata's were made up on a whim? Or the existing kata's were modified? It is no doubt that the technique must be learned before learning the kata. Man, everyone is right, you never truly answer anybody's questions.

JKD is a sport fighting style? This is news to many JKD folk, as one of their main techniques is the leading finger jab to the eye! Remind me again what sport allows that? BTW, I never said JKD was a TMA - I was addressing your "curricul based" statement.




Yes, an art that combined Japanese elements with Chinese elements. This does not fit your curriculum definition? How so?



American kenpo has kata that are directly related to the SD techniques used in the system, so..........

Actually, math can be used to describe any physical action in the universe. If you can't do the math, you don't know the technique. On this, there can be no debate.

As the guy who "whipped out the calculator" I must say I agree with others who say, you do not answer direct question. The only viable way to say you have described the most powerful punch, is you are tapping into something mystic that can't be understood by modern science.

Good luck with that punch.

Paul, this idea that you don't challenge the ideas of a high ranking master is somewhere between foolish, and dangerous. Challenging is not disrespect, no one is saying to behave in a disrespectful manner. But the idea that these masters have some secret knowledge is right out of comic book.

100 goes to 10 goes to 2 then 1,and they are a slave to the master...really? You buy this?

As a final note, 16 pages of crap is still crap. You are entertaining, but not in good way, in a fat girl in spandex kind of way.

I've been polite up to now, but instead of responding to me properly, you dismissed me with you "some guy whipped out a calculator"...as if measuring actual data was a fools game.

-Kimo

yea you havent been disrespectful to me personally but you're attitude in general hasn't exactly been awesome.

the main point is that you have to question. Thats how people learn and discover things. Otherwise a person will never know the world outside of their box. Its like many of the TMAist that get owned by Royce Gracie in the early UFC because they don't question their training methods(and before you defend TMAs, I practice Kung fu and have been since I started martial arts). There is no absolute answer unless it is a proven law. And in the world of martial arts, everything is flawed. There is no perfect.

ROTFLMAO!!! Oh yes, the richness of the irony is ABSOLUTELY hilarious! And the richest part of it all is that you're not even aware of the irony in your statement!

wow, like fishing for blue gills ,i hit the hot spot.wheres cord im disappointed.

there is no scientific way to measure all the integral movements in martial arts punch.impact can be measured in different ways. like i said the most powerful impact isnt always the hit that makes you move the most.the hardest hit only moves the small area impacted, while the rest of body stays stationry.

like a bullet from a gun.the impact is delivered at 2500 ft per second (incredible force) but ,its delivered so fast and in such a small area.only the area hit will is moved or severly damaged.of course this is before the bullet fragments.

so you cant measure force for face value as you boys with your calculators are trying to do when it comes to damaging something.

i have been saying all along that the heel stamp is the powerful punch in MARTIAL ARTS.and it is.ive also said i dont consider mma a martial art or boxing .but even if i did there punches would be inferior to the impacting force and damage of the heel stamp.

megan, didnt you forget or didnt know your kata ?

excalibur, if i havent been disrepectful to you.does that give you the right to disrespect me?are we not grown men?you have been tearing into me unrelentlessly.you even appeared genuine in pm so i answer4d you with a genuine amswer.i hit send ,came back here and read some of your attempeted discrediting b.s. you just posted.
so you can go scratch your a44 on a post.

same for you kimo.


the 100 to 2 to 1 thing was and is dead on.i said almost slave like as he does all the masters house work.like danielson.i know this is true and if you dont believe take two rubs on that post

I dont see it as the same, as with these drills, it is more to do with learning your relationship with the weapon, not your relationship with your target. I know that is subjective, but its how I felt when doing it. My focus was on the flow and movement of the stick(s), as was my partners, and this allowed the twain to meet in the middle, It was never a case of aiming the stick at anything in particular.



I do not see any meaningful contact in this clip, it is a pre-chorographed 'dance', and if a block or redirection had failed, there was no risk of the strike reaching a meaningful conclusion. In that sense, there was no target. Compare this with a 6 punch pad combo if you dont get you pad up in time for a right cross - ouch-Doh!!



I cant talk specificaly about what is being done here, but it seems more like a drill to use the core and 'grounding' to help absorb and deal with force, rather than the emphasis being on the strike itself. This would make it a polarity in regards to target work.

Paul, thanks so much for your detailed answers to my questions. *rolls eyes*



Perhaps someone can remind me what these are:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbth...true#Post378840

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247555#Post247555



Oh, I see. You parse your answer when the facts become inconvenient for you. Got it.

Paul, a few more question for you to not answer.

You said here in the SD thread:



But I'm confused. How can you refer to Bruce Lee as 'the great' when Lee's Tao of JKD is the very antithesis of non-questioning, purist dogma, as your posts seem to promote as the true way?

How does someone with such a low opinion of sport MA justify encouraging his daughters to train specifically in 'sport karate', as well as learning from their teacher, and judging at sporting MA competitions? Seems to be a waste of time to one who would consider sporting stuff 'not in the same sentance' as real TMA, right?

If one is not to ever question what an instructor has taught, then a) why even attempt to discuss it on line or anywhere else, as discussion is negated by the outlook. and b) why criticize those on here who believe what they have been taught by their instructors? Surely you should be delighted by our lack of acceptance of your thoughts in favor of our own teacher's and our own experiences.

Thanks again for your studied consideration.

Wow...you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Damage and Force are 2 different measurements...but why waste time with that wacky science stuff, even if it's the blueprint for the physical universe.



There are all kinds of cult leaders looking for unsuspecting souls.

you guys are idiots ..

when did i say anything about sport karate being bad, i said its not the same as tma.same thing for jkd.

no kimo you have no abilty to grasp a concept.are you saying a bullet does not hit a target as hard as a punch?or are you not able to differentiate?

Paul40, if you have anything else you need to say, say it now, because you're going on flood control for a little while.

Well, I can't tell what exactly you guys have been arguing about here, but I will try to piece it together and add my two cents.

To me, training with something like focus pads is more for accuracy, speed, movement, and when done with enough response from the pad holder a small amount of "resistance". You cannot get any real feedback into your own body to drill down and correct the flaws in your structure from hitting pads, IMO. I like training with focus pads but I don't think it has huge bearing on "power" personally.

Training which is just about hitting stuff hard is a whole different ballgame, stuff like makiwara and even a partner with a phonebook is meant to reinforce (with proper instruction of course) habits of efficiency in posture and alignment.

I know little ol' potbelly guys that can hit really friggin' hard from years of this kind of training.

I know this board is full of skeptics about this kind of training (you guys think heavy bag does the same thing...I disagree strongly a heavy bag is great, but a whole different animal)..I consider myself generally skeptical to claims of "great punching power" from one method or another, but I can say after actually feeling the force that people can generate from training on static objects like makiwara, hitting targets in this way is very important.

That is not to say most people doing this kind of training are necessarily getting that effect, it has to be done correctly, and I think many people go into this kind of training (including heavy bag) with the mistaken idea that it's about "toughening knuckles" etc....that is just a small side effect, the main point of hitting any target is reducing the energy going back into you, and increasing the energy going into your target.

If you go into target training and just mindlessly blast with no effort to figure out where you are hitting less than you should, then there's no purpose...however if you really pay attention to that over time you can see real improvement.

In addition, learning proper "power" and alignment etc. will translate into faster movements with no tells, expenditure of less energy with more effect on your part etc....so it's related to everything else in a well rounded training program.

You got it exactly, IMHO.

Well, there is no measure of hard, that is a description. It is quite clear the bullet or punch don't matter, they are just delivery mechanism's. What matters is mass, acceleration, area of contact,angle of incidence...etc etc etc.

There is no concept to grasp, physics is finite and definable. Until you can agree to that, there is not much to discuss.

who said I'm trying to discredit? I'm ASKING questions and am trying to politely disagree with you. I havent called you any names or anything, so why start?

you don't think to question your master thats has training for 50 years. And maybe I wouldnt question HIM directly, but I'd definitely pose a question to myself or outside sources. My master can tell me something, but doesnt mean his word is absolute. If he is right I'd come to that conclusion myself from experimenting.

you say the heel stamp is the most powerful, but HOW did you come to that conclusion? describing body mechanics isn't answering the question because I can describe body mechanics for punches in the art I practice and say that it is the most powerful too.

From what I'm understanding your main experiences deal with Aikido and some Karate. I mean did you go around and test the heel stamp against other disciplines?

I don't have a dog in this race, but this is a completely different issue than "testing" against other disciplines, 99.9% of sane people don't spar at anywhere near 100% power, plus things operate differently through gear. i'm skeptical you would know if it was more powerful or not purely by sparring someone, minus the things you can judge through normal contact sparring.

This is what bugs me about FA.com, you guys get into this mentality where you think that if someone can go and spar someone with something, it is automatically validated, and if you don't see something in most people's sparring, it must not exist, very shortsighted it seems to me. Sparring is a tool, not a reflection of some Platonic ultimate reality of pure fighting.

You can draw certain conclusions from testing things in sparring (such as larger general conclusions about how you react, and what is realistic technique, what isn't etc.).

However there are other factors at play that are hard to simulate in the vast majority of folks sparring methods. You have to put on a critical thinking hat when you evaluate stuff like this, not just say "well I did it sparring my friend in the dojo, it must work that way in real life".

I would accept sparring could test someone's power if they were truly going full bore fighting in armor or otherwise, but most people don't do that. Even this site and it's most vocal proponents of "resistance" admit that even they mostly do moderate contact, techncial sparring.....so how would going and fighting a wing chun guy prove or disprove anything about what strike is more powerful? Your idea of how to validate doesn't seem any more reasonable than his.

Far as the strike itself, I have no idea what a "heel stamp" is, and I have been a Karateka for a fair while, does it go by other names?

I don't think there is any most powerful strike, there are alot of different methods of putting your force into things, western boxing uses different mechanics and movement to create force from most asian arts, but both work.

Also a swinging strike like furi-uchi can be just as powerful as a straight punch or cross, and can a hook, uppcut, uraken, whatever.. sound body mechanics is what makes stuff powerful, there's no silver bullet strike.

That has to be the most egotistical, presumptious, and meglomaniacal statement I've ever read. Who exaclty do you think you are? The level of in depth MA experience on these forums is incredible. They've earned their respect here; not by demanding it, but by humbly providing countless members with straight forward answers and knowledgeable advice in their areas of expertise. They're fothcoming in their motives and there are plenty of healthy discussions that are entered into with respect for others' opinions and even admitting at times that they've mabye had a faulty premise if that's the case. But all is done in search of better collective knowledge within the MA and FA forum communities.


You've made comment after comment about your deep river of knowledge and experience in the martial arts and nowhere in all that training you never learned humility? You offer only "Kung Fu" style riddles and misdirection to avoid giving a straight forward answer like, "Yes." or "No." or "I live in NYC NY, etc. Then, whenever you're questioned about one of your beliefs or statements you can only respond that we're so thick we wouldn't be able to extract the answer from your riddle so you're not going to clarify. When the question is repeated, you turn to insults like this.

How about a little humilty, bro? Those shaolin monks woulda had you for a slave with that attitude. Remember? They only chose someone who was humble, etc?

It's a discussion, not a pulpit for you to preach from. Free thinkers with free minds. If you don't want your ideas questioned, don't post on a public forum. Start a blog with no place to comment. Then you won't have to deal with us hard headed, idiot, know it alls who can't be worthy of your vast knowledge or have any real training, because we can't find the holy grail in your deflecting riddles.


But I guess by this statement:
only applies to us unenlightened peasants and not Paul The Great? You've known one guy for 26 years and he knocked the wind out of you? Great. May I humbly suggest, that you open your mind enough to understand that someone other than yourself might have viable opinions and knowledge...even if it doesn't match yours? That's progress. Put down the ego and the, "I can't talk to you becuase you might question my opinion" attitude.

Can I speak from experience this doesn't work. People still find ways to disagree with you and question you... via email, via facebook and even people from your own school.... it should be illegal! Free thinkers... who wants them?

i didnt come here looking for a fight,i tried to ask cord peacfully to stop tearing my post apart.he continued.
everybody else felt compelled to pile on.

most of you guys didnt get involved until this thing was out of control

the guy on the bottom isnt always the victim.

ever heard anyone say, sooner or later your big mouth is going to get you in trouble?

my first post was about masagatsu agatsu, not exactly a flame war post

cord lays in the weeds and looks for something to attack.

he met his match

Just out of interest, if you weren't looking for a fight why on Earth persist in insulting everyone on the forum? If you are genuinely of the opinion that there is no one here of suitable understanding to communicate with you then I can't see any reason to persist posting here other than to carry on fighting... also using provocative taunts like you have is also an indicator of 'spoiling for a rumble' wouldn't you say? And another impartial observation you've more than made up for being victimized by attacking and insulting everyone else... you can't have it both ways and you've more than stooped to whatever perception of 'lower intelligence' you think the rest of the forum pocesses. It's very hard to be magnanimous when you're acting like a prat too... people who throw stones and all that.

Now the only other reason I can think of you sticking around is because you are actually genuinely here for a good flame war and are secretly enjoying this keyboard masturbation... if that's the case you really do get my respect. You are playing the role of wounded soldier troll superbly....

Posted on 02/02/10


This is why I am bored of you. So. Very. Predictable.

*someone wake me up if he comes up with something interesting please*

i think paul is the the greatest person on this planet. lol

And this is what bugs me about you, Zach. You keep making strawman assumptions about "us" here. Nobody claims that sparring is the only place techniques can exist. Rather that sparring is the most realistic way to test them. I don't think I have said otherwise.



Yes, exactly.



Well, many techniques (submissions, for instance) you can do exactly that. Others, you can't.



Sure, and I am one of them. But you do have people that spar or compete to KO, which is a good test of power and power transfer.



Good points, and I mentioned something simlar earlier.

Corwin, thanks for the encouragement. And props for correct use of their/there/they're and your/you're. Impressive!

Thanks Matt, I thought that would catch somebody's eye. It needed to be addressed.

On another note, this is just a response to something you said in that first link you posted regarding fight science and the GNP punches being aided by gravity. I's a little more than that as well, and maybe someone already said this in that thread. But, the fact is that you'd get similar results if the target was pushed up against a sturdy wall. It just forces the target to take 100% of the force from the attack plus the force coming back from the wall/ground, whichever the case may be. When standing unsupported, the body can move with the punch and dissipate a good deal of the energy. If you're on the ground or against the wall, you can't.

I apologize in advance if this was already discussed and for the fact that it's a bit off topic. But only by one generation.

I was actually just saying testing in a general sense, whether it be by sparring or measuring force and impact or what not. But there needs to be some comparison to determine if something was absolutely the most powerful.

I actually don't judge anything in a sparring match except for the individual's ability and skill. Just because Chuck Liddel can KO somebody with a certain type of punch doesnt mean that everyone else can. Its a skill thats unique to him. To be martial arts are all equal, just whether or not people are able to train those techniques in a proper fashion to apply them.

Ah ok, I get what you were saying then, sorry for misreading.

Still wondering what the heel stamp is, is it somewhere previous in the thread?

from the 9th reply post on the thread:



Mentioned again in his next post as a 'death punch', along with a nice little sport/mma fighting bash, and explanation that if it was used in any such full contact environment, it would lead to deaths and destroyed organs. Developed in a vacuum by shotokan masters, whom he has 'corresponded' with, but not worked with directly.

Oh jeez, not a thread to take seriously I guess then lol.

That is a judgement call we all have to make personaly, but certain contributions need to be taken with more than a pinch of salt

you just want it all handed to you instead of figuring it out for yourself.

as much as i havent offered, your rebuttals have been equally weak.

when the heel is stamped to the floor,like any impact a recoil is produced.without anywhere for the recoil to go the energy will return back to the source.this energy will travel through the body.the practioner harmonizes with this energy and channels it through ther body to the arm.as it travels down the arm the arm will begin to move in a striking motion.the body is now using its own force and the recoiled energy form the impact on the ground.the arm begins to twist and right at impact the wrist turns over and down to create torsion.The foot is still on the floor,creating a solid foundation for the impact as well as stopping any recoil.the recoil from the impact will return back to the heel but as it did the first time, will return back through the body when it hits the floor.this is what creates the shock.

raising the heel off the ground does not allow any of this. and you will only have your body weight and strength in your punch.

the foundation and travel of energy is what creates the power not the body.

another way to understand this would be to jump as high as you can and land on the ball of your feet.the impact is cushioned by the movement of the joints in the feet.

now jump up and land on on your heels.your entire body will vibrate at impact because the energy will return back through the body,

anything without a solid foundation will absorb shock.the shotokan practioner who figured this out took it further and figured out how to not only eliminate the absorbtion but also use the unabsorbed energy, not only once but, twice in the same punch.

this is the basis of the punch ,there is also a lot of body me3chanics involved with hip rotation,understanding which muscles will conduct the energy through the body and when etc.

What do you mean you havent offered? You have been 'going deep' 'diving in' and 'going big' for weeks now havent you?

What sort of professor purposefully refuses to impart information?

Is it just my responses that have been weak, or everyone's?

If just mine, then why lay the attitude on all?

If all, why do you even want to correspond with us?

and how can a response to your self admitted lack of input be anything other than unsatisfying, seeing as how it is a response to a purposefully empty post?

And I have deleted your PM unread as promised. I have no intention of humouring a string of personal attacks and insults any longer.

Have a nice day.

Just had a memory moment. Back in the day I used to attend a lot of Pro Wrestling performances. They were deep into heel stamps.

A series of hard right jabs, almost to the jaw with a resounding coordinated STAMP STAMP STAMP

And here I thought that was all to make the audience believe it made the punch harder (or mask the fact that the punch never connected.

OH DAYUM!!! YOU WENT THERE!!!

This is exactly what I have been thinking about through all of this

Paul-



This is a forum - text based medium. "Handing it out" is pretty much what this place is all about. To scold people for thinking otherwise is to be obtuse to the point of irony.



I don't think anyone is really disputing this, at least I am not.



This is where you are losing me. I have mentioned many other factors that go into creating power in strikes. You could have good foundation and lose all the power by poor joint alignment, lack of hip torque or shoulder engagement, etc. One can be compensated for, or diluted by, the other.



Haha, don't try that at home, kids! That will hurt.



Right, like I mentioned before. So what happens if one of these other factors is incomplete, or even emphasized to a greater degree? This is why your analysis seems lacking to many on here. A good strike is not dependant on just one element.

Definitely do not try this at home. It's a utterly ridiculous example of body mechanics. If you jump up and land on your heels the vibration you feel in your body will be transmitted through bones and joints rattling as the energy passes through them. Energy generated for striking is supposed to rattle around in your opponents structure not yours.

Here is a slightly more sane method for generating power using the feet:

http://themartialarchive.com/View-Video/Boxing/651/Using-weight-in-punches.html

What are you suggesting dear fellow? That there are systems of martial arts that adopt superficial methods to simply fool people who don't know better into thinking they are generating dynamite power??? YEAH RIGHT! If that were true, wouldn't people be doing crazy stuff like screaming as they punched someone to make it seem more threatening or powerful? The very idea!!!


Hey, wait a second....

[quote]the foundation and travel of energy is what creates the power not the body.
/quote]

That would be to say without foundation you cannot have power, that is utterly false. Take any jumping technique, completely without foundation...still have force.

In football, players leave their feet to tackle, no foundation, still have force.

To say the body is not involved in power generation is flat wrong...without the body, there would be no mass, ergo no force.

The heel stamp (witch is nothing more then another word for base) increases power, in the sense that the energy rebounds off the ground and out the punch. Remember when discussed that energy seeks the path of least resistance?

Paul, you call our replies to you weak, yet all you have to offer is a snide remark about science/math and then re-explaining a minor element in power generation that is so commonly known and accepted most people don't chose to give it as a name for an entire technique.

You seem to think you know something no one else does. News flash, you don't. In fact it's quite clear to me you know very little about putting power in a technique and even less about physics.

these responces are the worst ive ever seen.

i see why you all get along so well,,none of you have a clue what your talking about

Feel free to explain in detail where either Kimo or I am wrong.

my responce was more directed at iaibear and prizewriter for there ever so brilliant association of the heel stamp to all star wrestling.

if you cant make sense or understand it , you might as well make a joke, huh?

Hang on a minute, not 5 days ago, iaibear was one of the only 'real' martial artists on here in your eyes. Now, heaven forbid, he uses a little levity/irreverance and he is a clueless non MAist!!!???

You know what? you are a shihan aikidorka.



No, if you make no sense, and present in a rude, ignorant, arrogant manner, that is the very antithesis of any and all tenets prized in MA globally, you make a joke of yourself.

Then there are still the nagging questions. You have been trained by one person, and one person alone. He retired 'before google was thought of' indicating the mid 90's. So, of your 26 years total training, at least 12 years of that have been under your own supervision, seeking no outside feedback on your progress whatsoever. Kind of goes against your obsession with reliance on an instructor doesnt it?

There is also a discrepancy between where you say you live (Rockford Il), and the registered location of the email you used to register to the site.

Then there is the fact that, despite being a judge at Japanese art competions, there is no one by the given name of Paul listed as teaching Aikido in Rockford Il by any of the aikido associations in America that I could find, so who's competitions do you judge- your own!?

You are an insular man with your own insular reality, and no confidence to even fill in your profile, let alone step up and be counted for who and what you are.

You will neither put up, nor shut up, because one you can't, and the other you just dont want to.

Troll. Pure and simple.

cord,

I do live in rockford il.not much to gain by lying about that.

yes i have been training in aikido for 26 years.my instructor went back to japan when i was 22.1992

does this mean when a student leaves his teacher and opens his own school , he stops progressing?this is why i am at second dan instead of 5th where i would be if i continued chasing belts.

I am a recognized nidan in japan. I tested in california at the Aikido center of Los Angelas.My certs are signed by the Kensho Furuya.not with us anymore btw.

i traveled to Californai because i was trained in a very small school.Part of our tests includes a 5 man randori which we did not have 5 blackbelts available.My instructor being Japanese would only take us to this school for our test.

I did not take another class from any other sensei after 1992 but, he is only a phone cvall away when i have questions.

i do not need to be graded because i dont test anymore.i am second dan and will remain until i die.without regret.

my rudeness is your work . deal with it.

yes i did have high respect for iaibear until his comment about the heel stamp being a all star wrestling move.i was actually disappointed he jumped ship on someone he clearly recognized as being a genuine aikido practitioner of many years.

you i expect garbage from ,him i did not.

my knowledge of traditinal japanese kate has nothing to do with aikido.not even sure why you would mention that in the same sentence other than your lack of experience.aikido has nothing to do with karate.

if you think my name is paul ,your even more foolish than i thought.i dont post my personal info on the internet ,thats your gig. and quiet frankly not very smart.

i do not have a listed school in rockford . i think i mentioned many times i only do private lessons.as a natter of fact i said specifically i dont teach aikdio because it takes too long to be effective.so that comment was equally worthless.

i have been putting up since i registered here.

last time i checked we have all been fighting about my comments on martial arts , not yours.i still dont have a clue what you have even done in martial arts.
this is why you attack the way you do because your a pretender trying to cover your lack of experience.you have offered no martial arts experience of your own.just picking my stuff apart.

lets here your training curriculum.thats right you dont have one.no belts, no katas, nothing.just post bashing.

if you feel my aikido knowledge is weak.

great place to prove im a troll. i believe i threw this challenge down weeks ago. along with my kata posts.

still waiting troll busters.

Now that I get what you are talking about, here's my two cents:

Rooting your power through the back heel does make for a damn hard straight punch, it's the standard way of doing things in some Karate, and a number of Chinese arts, I know some Xingyi practitioners use this kind of mechanic.

I don't know that it is necessarily harder or better than anything else though, and the thing is that it is very art-dependent, it is useful to arts that use a certain posture and movement, maybe less so to others.

For example if you use posture and footwork are more similar to western boxing, it will be almost useless to you as your back heel will always be off the ground, and the power comes more from core rotation and sometimes a leaning, your center of gravity will never be such that this mechanic is likely to be any use to you.

I have felt boxing-style overhands that rivaled the same kind of power i've felt through the heel rooting punches, so I don't think it's superior, it just works better for the arts it is a part of.

One last thing: YOu don't need to stamp your foot to do it, and if anything I think this sounds like an unnecessary exaggeration (*cough* Shotokan stances ;))of the movement, if can be done simply by rooting the rear foot at the moment of impact...none of this is any big secret, and it's something you can learn in a variety of Asian arts.

I don't beleive it creates any kind of super punch power, but it does a great job of maximizing impact, i've met many small, average (in terms of muscle etc) old dudes who can hit well above their weight from using this method.

Hi Paul

Relax! Just a bit of fun. I only added my remark as to be honest, this thread doesn;t seem to be going anywhere quickly. That said, its pretty much the only discussion on here!

prize`i can talk smack with the best of them but , in the context of this battle royal or should i say attemptes mauling.

a simple smiley face would be appreciated if were playing.

when you got 10 people taking pokes at you.the next hand you feel on your shoulder gets met with an elbow without looking to see who your hitting.

until this settles down,

Hi Paul

I did use a smilie (see very end of my post)! I thought a wink was sufficent. I 'll use a full Cheshire Cat grin to avoid any ambiguity next time!

i have seen some 50 caliber words being shot out of 22 caliber barrels to day.

do you guys say imbiguity when you talk to your friends?

i think gavin threw some heavy lead earlier,

a pellet gun will work if you know how to aim.

Paul, you are full of carp.



You knew it was a joke, but then you try and defend yourself later by saying you didn't know it was a joke.

How about some consistency?

joel;

what in the hell are you talking about?


i said if you cant make sence you might as well make a joke.

i think this would be considered saying i knew it was a joke,

im raising one eyebrow thinking.......... umm ok.
are you typing in your sleep?

the comment i made saying there ever so brilliant association is called sarcasm.

btw i dont like fish.

Yes, exactly. That was my point.

But then later you say this



Which I took as you saying that you weren't sure they were joking and it would be best to put a smiley face on a post so you could better tell if it were a joke.

Or did I read that post incorrectly? If so could you please clarify for me? I will gladly offer my sincerest apology if I have done you wrong. I do not wish to insult those who are not deserving of it.

Your showing of an utter lack of basic knowledge in grammar, spelling, and punctuation makes it sometimes hard to understand what you are trying to say.

So why all the leaping up and down on the SD thread insisting on my rank if it means nothing to you? Also, as there is only a 4 year age gap, I really dont think you can play the 'Jnr' card to any effect either.



Fine, but this hardly seems a breadth of experience necessary to assert that a particular karate punch is THE most powerful in the world. If you havent even got 5 experienced aikidoka to play with, and have trained no other arts, including karate, then you are stating belief based on 2nd opinion as fact. It is not reasonable to expect others to accept that blindly.



What, your rudeness to everyone? .....

Posted on 3rd Feb in the locked SD thread


Followed by me opening a thread to get honest feeback on my conduct from my peers. I really dont feel these to be acts of aggression/rudeness. It was you who instigated the PM discourse, and it was you who repeatedly called for my return to this thread when I did my best to keep out of it: etc.



Seriously, dude, are you of such a polarised view that to have respect for someone they have to agree with everything you say/believe? That is a completely unrealistic way to live. There is not one person in life who thinks exactly as another. You have to understand the difference between disagreement and disrespect.



Precisely. Yet you are pains to point out you are not a karateka, have never trained shotokan, and are an aikidoka. How do you expect people to react when you talk with absolute authority on an art you do not train? Be reasonable man.



I responded to a direct request for information made by you. Don't be sore that I turned out to be who i said I was, and not the kid you so desperately wanted me to be so this would all go away.
As for you, a 1st name and a bio on your profile would not have told anthything, other than the fact you were not ashamed of your conduct on here. Same as giving your forum name for Bullshido. If you felt your deportment on here was correct, you would have had no qualms in sharing.



Again, so you have trained Aikido only, with one aikido teacher, who you have not seen in 18 years. That means your direct learning of your art stands at 8 years. So if you dont teach aikido, what the hell do you teach, and on what grounds do you teach it!!?? You have been throwing a lot of accusations around about people not being 'real' this and 'true' that, and it turns out you did aikido for 8 years and decided you knew everything about every art in the world!!?? How does that work?



This is the closest to a clear and coherent post you have made since joining.



Well you should, I have given you a full bio.



I have picked on things I disagree with based on my experience. There in lies the difference.



Yep. Thats all I do on here. Ask anyone, that Cord eh? never helped a living soul on this site.

You make so many sweeping statements about things and people you dont have real knowledge of, that you destroy any credibility you are so desperate to build.



you have in black and white above that I give you benefit of the doubt.



You dont understand the nature of trolling. It has nothing to do with if you are an MAist or not, it is all about how you conduct yourself on a site. Wild claims and insults designed to ingender argument, sustained personal attack (charming PM's by the way- enough to have you banned if I wanted to), and off topic posting that ruins thread content.

That is trolling, be you a 2nd dan, or Dan the kid from next door.

This is your chance to drop all this, take a breath, and decide if you are willing to accept that to discuss your ideas is to accept they may not be agreed with, or maybe worse, if you come up with something people agree with, you will be of the same mind as a bunch of idiot kid pretend clueless wannabe martial artists.

You know you do not function like this in the real world, it would be impossible, so just chill out and start again.

Sound fair?





[/quote]

Can we talk about something more interesting? Like Korean beef kalbi? It's better than kimchi, by the way.

one last note and then im done if you [ALL] are.

my training was 8 years.my experience now spans 26 years.

A doctor doesnt become a doctor until he leaves college.
the more he practices the more he understands.you can only learn so much in the class room.Things dont become clear until you start poking around.the more you poke the more you learn.

New doctors dont have any real experience yet, only theory.they need to run several tests to see whats wrong with a patient.

In time you can see whats wrong with a person just by watching them walk in your office.

Your professors are only memories at that time.

This really goes back to the stuff i said about learning hydraulics on a piece of equipment.Your boss can only tell you so much, you need to go lock yourself in the cab and work it out.

An eagle will never soar if he never leaves the nest.

damn that was good.
\
did i write that?


remember "kung fu?" "when you can snatch the pebble from my hand it will be time for you to go"

Whoa whoa whoa, reign it in buddy. No jokes round here, unless you have a smilie. It's the only way to know if you are joking, apparently.

Fair enough, but remember, doctors have to have endless refresher training to remain current and effective,as well as having to maintain an open mind that can embrace new theory and information in order to give the best treatment they can.

They also have to have the humility to know when it is better to referr a patient to a specialist in a specific medical field.

this is why i really enjoy working with other martial artist of different backgrounds.The learning never ends.I actually pick up more from them as i teach because my eyes are wide open to adding to what i already know.

too many martial artist and people in general feel there way is the only way,We are always students in life,even as we teach, we become our own students.

when im talking to people im working with,i actually hear what im saying and listening.we have knowledge in our minds that we dont realize and until something stimulates those thoughts,they just sit in a deep freeze.

I learned so much when i was 14-22 that i didnt realize unitl i was 35. its like i have been unpacking for 18 years and i still have a hundred boxes to go.As little things come up in life and in ma and you just seem to have the answer for it.

I sit back sometimes and remember the nights i sat there on the mat with this guy who was talking in very broken english about stuff i had no clue about.I left those nights dumbfounded what he just said but, 20 years later something happens and it all comes clear.Like never ending deja vues and flash backs.

these are the times like i said when i call him if i have a question.he programmed me for just about everything but until i encounter the situation, the program sleeps.

with every lesson learned the rubber bands wind tighter.

listen to yourself as your convey your thoughts.You will be suprised at what you know.

This the deep respect i have for the old traditional teachers.they plant alot of info to be harvested when your ready for it.hence the kata. hidden bunkai that reveals itself after you reach a certain understanding of the kata.

This is why i said most of the advanced waza is on a cliff.you need to climb to get to it.

This is also why i never question them.if they say it, then i see it as a treasure that lies ahead for me.

My instructor did not walk up to me and tell me the heel stamp is the most powerful punch.he demonstated it as a learning tool or a correction, i dont remember.he didnt say hey guys wanta learn the most powerful punch.it wasnt like that at all.

he had me hold the bag.he then did a normal heal raise body generated power punch.knocked me back a few steps and winded me a bit.

He then grabbed a different bag, this one he hung around my neck,it was also alot thicker than the first one.he told me to advance him with a haito strike,keep in mind there is no compliance,full speed.he blocked my arm and hit me in the chest with force so incredible i threw up.10 inches of padding.there is no doubt if i wasnt protected i would have been seriously injured or killed.no loud yells from him either ,just a short diaphram induced kiai that sounded like hite,

he then explained the punch in detail.he explained it as the most deadly punch in the world and why it was designed.to kill your opponent on the battle field.

i have searched for years to be hit like that again.nobody has ever come close.including some big rangers,

so i didnt learn it as a karate student and i cant do it very good, i did feel it and havent felt anything like it again.

again, nothing wrong with that at all IMO, its your experience, and your truth. I hope you see how a change in the nature of how you convey these things completely changes the nature of discourse on here.

The nature of the punch you describe seems very much in keeping with the biomechanics of some CMA, and certain Tai Chi principles in particular, this is why a claim that it originated in Shotokan will raise eyebrows, as the principles at work in the technique are attributed to older arts. If shotokan adopted such methods, adapted such methods, and popularised such methods, then you would agree that this is different to having originated, or being the sole custodian of them.

Also, as someone who admits you 'are not very good' at this punch yourself, you have to acknowledge the shifting sands of 'most' and 'best' statements in MA's. After all, if your instructor had not been very good at it, and you subsequently had met and trained with a world class queensbury boxer, you would be offering a different truth regarding the most powerful punch possible

The most powerful technique is always the one you can perform best as an individual, and this will vary from person to person.

Well im not sure who developed what,wasnt there, the guys who were are mostly dead.so its all second hand info at best,

all these great arts ,all these great developers.The grand master of old.dont have anything on dillman.he figured it all out.

as a matter of fact, i just ordered a no touch knockout.hopefully be here fedex tues.

Then ill be the baddest.so you better watch out cord, i might be able to chi you from here.

Alright, then to be less specific, the principles at play exist in arts that are older than shotokan, and therefore, it is logical to deduce that shotokan is not the originator of these principles, nor the application of them, whick is what you asserted and what caused some issues on this thread.



Remember when you requested clear use of smiley's ? same would be appreciated

i would have to say the fact i was using dillmans no touch knockout , that would get a free ride without the smileys but, if you need one here



I did say im my request for smiles in the context of the battle.

the context of this was humor,with dillman

also the entire post was related to dillman. the beginning where i said i dont know who did what , was the lead in,the part where i said i was going to chi you was the lead out

Missed the opening reference, all else, I was delighted to find is a joke

Well, no, in a certain sense it is worth taking seriously. This from another thread:





Note that this thread has up to this point reached 22 pages. A whole bunch of folks that I hadn't seen anything from in a while have jumped in and contributed. I have to recognize that our new "worthy" troll paul40, notwithstanding his obvious faults, HAS positively contributed to the forum like no one else in a while. He's had the effect of galvanizing us.
Earlier in the thread I mentioned a past three way discussion Matt, Kimo and I had regarding power generation when striking. It was informative, fact- filled and civil... And it petered out after a couple of pages. Because facts are facts and fundamentally there was no conflict between us, just looking at different sides of the same coin. Get a bunch of people together who are grounded in reality and know what they're talking about on a given subject, and controversy tends to be short lived, because after a while splitting hairs gets boring. Throw a paul40 into the mix, who thinks he's God's gift to the "ignorant" despite his poor grounding, and he irks people into overdrive in defense of reality.
So, despite having justifiably excoriated him earlier, I STILL tip my hat to master paul. Inadvertantly, he's done us a good turn.
My hat's also off to Cord, Zombie Zero and MattJ for their patient wisdom. They could've banned him and no one would've complained (Bar paul40). But they did the smart thing, let him rant so long as it stayed just short of outrageousness, and let us have at 'im. I gotta say that personally jousting with paul got old fairly soon for me, but I've enjoyed lurking and reading the back and forth. It's the most exciting thing that's happened in these forums for some time!
Matter of fact, perhaps we could prevail on Mr. Caile and have paul40 named as the forums' official spel cheker!

wow, you really put alot of time into that magon.excellent content, well thought out.

we all decided to grow up and act age today.well most of us anyway.

that spelling thing, boy that was funny.2 weeks ago.

the fact you actually thought that post out is encouraging,maybe a sign of something to come?

keep up the good work and maybe someday you can actually have some of your own thoughts worth posting.

your friendly troll;
paul40

p.s. did those blisters on your butt heal?

did you learn any of those`katas you were blowing your horn about?

Paul40, whilst i am more than happy to just start afresh, you have slung a lot of mud around, and sent an awful lot of heated PM's to a lot of people on here, so if they feel disinclined to let bygones be bygones, you can either try an apology, or you can let it ride, knowing that your future participation will prove your change of heart.

I dont see jumping right back in with the taunting and posturing to be a valid or productive path.

wait a second,cord.

did you just read magons post?

im willing to stop all this i said but im not going to sit here and let someone call mne a troll.

and its b.s of you to not say something to magon for keeping this going

play fair

OK, Cord, I had noticed you'd managed to tame him to a point almost of civility. So I plead guilty to having provoked him anew.
While I have no intention of apologizing, because the shoe fits, I'll take the blame for this latest and refrain in future. After all, it's only once in a while that I'm in the mood to roll in the mud with the pigs.

As soon as you respond in kind, you lose the right to call foul. This is why i never sanctioned you during our spat, as I would have had to sanction myself. Magon is under no obligation to just switch of the sense that he has been slighted by you, and as i said in the post that led to our detente, your posts on here, irrespective of your MA background, have had all the traits of trolling.

Magon actually paid you a sort of compliment, because I was telling the truth when I said we have had many with a combative nature similar to yours on here over the years, and whilst they, and you, could be obstinate to the extreme, they always brought forth a lot of discussion, for good or ill.

You yourself said 'I have made this place the busiest it has been in years' in a previous post, so where is the harm in acknowledging your roll as instigator and devils advocate on here?

I'd be happy to see you cut out the pointless personal attacks, and let the good times roll.

I couldn't agree more with Magon.

I was into it with Paul too but alas it does get old. So, unless he name dropped me I just read the post and I actually enjoyed most of them. If I let a day or two go by I would logon to find an additional 3-4 pages. Which I didni't mind reading. I got some good info out of punching.

Also, I can't remember who said it but I would have loved to have a phsyics dude come in and explain it by the math and put formatlity aside for the moment. Maybe we can have ae professor at the next east coast get together. :-)

Hey! When I first joined this set of forums, there was a debate if I were a troll or not. Could be the jury is still out. Have not heard lately.

Karate, (and especially Shotokan, a much newer style that differs considerably from it's parent art of Shorin Ryu) to be quite is not a battlefield art. Battlefield arts are generally those that involves weapons primarily...

Killing someone on a battlefield would likely not be done with fists, Karate is first and foremost a civilian defense art.

I know exactly the kind of power you are talking about, but I do not believe it would necessarily kill someone if landed correctly, it would definitely end a fight though, and that's what it's intended to do.

I gotta say, it does strike me as odd a non-karateka being all adamant about this.

No offense, but I have learned from some really awesome Karateka, some of whom definitely have their "traditional" stripes... and I would still laugh if one of them ever told me anything they taught was "the most deadly punch in the world"...making a statement like that to me screams of being in an insular, and somewhat fantasy- prone environment.

that physics dude would have to be a highly skilled shtokan martial arts practioner to detail the physics of the punch.too many moving parts.

there is also an attack that must take place for this punch to deliver its maximum power.like i said i was told to advance and punch.so the attackers forward motion is also used.
now you can say, have a person advance any striker then measure the force.

the only way to do that would be an impact meter on the pad.

there is no scientific formula to figure this out.

I have been by some big boys, driven off my feet,knocked backwards,got speared in football several times.

The day i got hit with the heel stamp, i didnt move. i felt my chest cave in and i dropped straight down.very rapid impact.

not powerful in a sence of moving me but, powerful in a sence of instant trauma.it was more like getting shot than punched.my entire body vibrated.

now this came from a guy who was 65 years old and about 135 pounds.

You can tell people you seen a ghost but ,until they see it too, they think your nuts.I seen the ghost and felt it.

zach,
yes shotokan is the sport version of the okinawan arts.which i went into detail about in the unsu post.

but they still developed this punch as an organ destroyer.like i said i threw up when i got hit with it and i had a ten inch pad on me.that same punch to my chest or liver etc unpadded could have easily been fatal.

being a non practioner has nothing to do with me talking about this punch.These techniques were being practiced in the same room i was learning aikido in.

Keep in mind Funakoshi was okinwan trained as a serious practioner.so the fact of his art being a sport really has little do with his ability.maybe you could say he was thinking okinawan when he developed this punch.

a little history on Funakoshi,s Shotokan

shoto+kan = funakoshi penname or 'nickname' being
'pine+sea(or waves)'+'hall (as in training hall etc'
'pine with sea (or wave)' may be interpreted as
sea of pines, or waving pines, or waving pines, or 'wind in the pine trees'..

the idea to a person in context would be
say; 'shoto's school' ie, funakoshi's school or dojo..
like say "reds gym" or "ricks school" the idea is of
the hall/dojo itself rather than name of the ryu
which with growth over time came to indicate ryu..

funakoshi was of course okinawan..
taught shuri-te and naha-te by renowned sensei
from which he created his 'shotokan' ryu, its no surprise that anyone so taught would have good
waza[!] bear in mind this as pre-sport days
when 'jiukumite' - free+braided+hand[or person]
translating to something like unrestricted wrestling
or 'use any waza partnerwork' and included as its name suggests and is historically accurate, full on
contesting of skills including within a bamboo basket
large enough for two men who sought to choke out
their partners.. imagine that for an idea of what
real karate training trained for..

as for punching, only one form of serious striking
in okinawa-te [later altered to read 'empty'-te]
[and from my point of view] check out naha-te
now known as 'gojuryu' strikeing training, esp, eg,
higaonna morio head of IOGKF striking makiwara[!]
youtube has various egs of this type of training,
and anyone, interested in striking would benefit
from the higaonna dvd 'power training'[dragon-tsunami] and anyone interested in training for
real karate or even superior whole-body fitness
or even, students of karate derivatives, must and would enjoy and learn from this eg of real karate..

bear in mind that makiwara is demonstrated using basic
waza incl punching.. after, you have mastered basic
front on strikes and kicks to makiwara, you will
then incorporate movements, around makiwara, as you might do in whatever 'sparring' type sessions
your training uses..

i have the series, which is meant for goju students
but which would no doubt be highly interesting to
any, martial artist, however you define ma..

bear in mind too that when students began to expand
on one form of partnerwork in the pre war period
[jiu or 'free' kumite] it was meant for those
who were expert in use of the waza, with good
control, and not meant as a game for beginners[!]

todays sport karate with stand-up only, for points,
heavily restricted and watered down, was not,
the goal or intention of original proponents..
it was, and is or can be another form of partnerwork
with few restrictions to allow experts or those with
good control and ability to practice in a more
realistic less structured way..
if you look at goju kakie or 'push hands training'
as it has been trained all along in goju you will see
that takedowns sweeps joint locking and chokes etc
are still part of the related jiukumite..

I'm a Shotokan judansha. You'd think that I'd be pleased with the notion that my system invented the strongest hand strike of them all. But intellectual honesty is what it is. So I agree with you 100%. Only someone who has zero grounding of the art in general and the system in particular, has an insular and defective view of his "knowledge" and the MAs, and is a manga aficionado would hold forth an opinion like that with any type of seriousness. But hey, like the written page, this medium holds whatever gets written on it.

Paul, I am a shodan in Goju, I trained Shorin for along time as well. I don't need to be told about the locks and sweeps and all that. I know all the history stuff too. Also the sport stuff yeah, I know all that I have some time in Karate. None of that proves the deadliness claim or any of that.

The claims of deadliness and organ destroying are still unverifiable, as is the quesitonable (and similarly unverifiable claim) of "hardest punch in the world".

I have felt the exact same kind of power you are talking about, I just think the context surrounding what you are talking about isn't realistic. I think about the guys I know who can generate this kind of power, I don't imagine any of them saying anything like "this is the hardest punch in the world", but rather saying something like "well, it's sure hard enough to do the trick, isn't it"

Secondly, and I will be frank here, I don't think you have any place lecturing people about Karate punches not being a Karateka yourself.

Even being exposed to to a Karateka of high skill like what you describe, the nuances and context of what is going would be lost (again being frank here) on someone who does not train in Karate.

Gotta tell ya, irritating as hell to be lectured on basic Karate history by someone who isn't a Karateka..

It would be like me telling someone about the most effective nikkyo ever, I may have an opinion on it, but as a non-aikidoka...rightfully people would likely take my opinion with a large measure of salt.

well zach, i guess what i consider talking and what you consider being lectured differ...my explantion of shotokan history was in general. if i was lecturing you ,you would have opened that post in your pm box.

not everyone here is a karate practioner.

i would also say the content of my post will show i have enough experience to talk about it.as i have put up several post now regarding karate.

the premise of this punch conversation has run 24 pages now with no resolve.

i move to close the case as unresolved and move on to something more productive,

While I have to say your posts today have been far better in terms of tone, I do have to take issue with this being unresolved.

You have chosen not to accept clearly proven facts of physics which debunk you claims. Not accepting facts doesn't mean the issue is unresolved. That would be like denying gravity. It's true regardless if you believe it or not.

edited to fix quotes

Your lack of respect for science I would guess comes from lack of experience with it.

We can build a remote control car, shoot it to Mars, land it and drive it around, take samples, analyze those samples then transmit the information back to earth.

I think we can break down the physics of a Shotokan punch.

Your example of you having to advance into the strike to achieve it's maximum power, betrays your lack of understanding of the math principles involved and how easily there are defined by the laws of motion.

Because I am besides myself why you cannot grasp this, I am going to assume that maybe you are thinking about it in a different way. Maybe you think through physics we can learn and then repeat the skill? That is totally different. I can measure Mike Tyson's uppercut all day long, doesn't mean I can repeat it. That takes years of training, and know how to train.

What I can tell is what he did, I can measure it, and compare it to other punches and techniques.



When we shoot the lander to Mars, we deal with Earth's gravitation. The vacuum of Space. Mar's Gravitation and we still have to land the craft at just the exact force so it's not destroyed on impact. We haven't even discussed how do we hit the target and not send the damn thing off into the galaxy?

And you think there is no scientific formula to a punch?




You do understand, power that knocks you back, and power of a bullet are all the same right? The only thing that changes are the numbers involved. ie a bullet has very little mass compared to a truck, but the acceleration is much higher in a bullet. The area of contact is quite small in a bullet compared with a truck.

It's all a formula, that's it. No ghost, no magic.

The guy could hit hard, because he was well trained in the technique to maximize the transfer of power to you. He used technique to do it, that technique exploits the simple laws of physics.

Now, what if I told you if someone that was 270 pounds, using the same technique, with the same level of ability would hit 2x as hard...would you believe me?

edited to fix quotes

Including yourself in that group. I have 3 years of Shukokai as my formative introduction to MA, from 11 to 14 years of age. I was even fortunate enough to attend a seminar with Sensei Kimura on one of his visits to the UK. He was a great guy, very approachable, and did some fantastic demonstrations involving grounding and what he called focusing the hara. At the time, it seemed like magic, but looking back it was a display of specific biomechanics. Be sure that he displayed the exact sort of effects that you have cited, but never once did he present anything in terms of 'hardest' or 'best'. He just let the techniques speak for themselves.

I also returned to karate for one year as an adult, but did not agree with various trappings regarding the school.

With 4 years specific, dedicated karate training, I dont feel I am qualified to talk with authority on karate. So how does an aikidoka who shared a room with a karate class even begin to feel justified in doing so?

In my current school, while savate is being taught in 2/3rds of the hall, a small number are training canne de combat in the other 3rd. I have seen it, and it is even thought to be a complimentary art to savate due to a cultural bond and certain elements of footwork, but I dont know jack about it, because I have never trained it.

If you can kid yourself re. your karate credentials, then fair enough, but do not expect others to share your confidence. I am not sure that 8 years is enough time to gain an in depth knowledge of aiki principles, let alone get karate nailed by proxy.

i dont know , read the karate post i put up.i may not be qualified in some eyes but, the post are dead nuts accurate.

how long does it take to learn aikido?im curious

Paul, while I am not calling you a fraud, I would expect you to at least give some credit to your post on Funakoshi and Shotokan. Especially when you copy it word-for-word from somebody on another forum.

http://www.martialartstalk.net/forums/other/43483-shotokan.html

Shisoshin made this post on September 9, 2009 in this thread where Paul is tkddad (there are two on that forum, Paul is the one with 831 posts)

For one getting on others about their wiki-knowledge, you sure know how to copy-and-paste.

Just saying.

Wow, that's really, really sad.

My word.

Pretty sure that bunkai is not set in stone. Bunkai training, as I understand it, is the personal study of experienced karateka who look for their own applications and uses for their kata. Like when people read poetry, it can have different meaning for different people.
No absolutes.



You should be.



Not only that Joel, check the rest of the thread!!! Paul40 has taken all the things the legitemate tkddad on that thread said, and used them as his own on here. A veritable internet Walter Mitty. tsk tsk

Great work Joel, like Sherlock Holmes with a ponytail



I think you are going to have to old chap. Your credibility level just dropped from benefit of the doubt out of charity to irreperable minus figures.

Come to think of it, why keep you around, as if we want to read what you are going to say, we can just follow that link?

yes you figured me out, i am not the karate expert i said im not.

you also proved that i have a friend who is a high level karate practioner who trained with the higaonna family.which i mentioned a few times.

any info any of us give is from another source,unless we developed it.i said the info i had wont be found in any books but, is almost straight from the hroses mouth.

I also have emails from shi,that he sent to my daughter helping her with her katas.

As far as my aikdo experience, you should go back and read my post from there.I probaby put up about 100 of them.those guys asked genuine questions that get genuine answers.
there is actually some martial artsit there.

what are you going to do next? prove the earth is round

I said over and over again, my karate post stand on there own merit,i also said a bunch of times i am not a karate expert, i also said a bunch of times i had and instrucotr and a good freind who were hight ranking karate prationers.

my post challenged your knowledge, not mine.

This is how i can tell if any of you experts know anything when it comes to talking karate.after being around people like that my entire life.

remember my statement,im not a karate practioner but i know enough to know the difference.cord said "whats that supposed to mean"
now you know

my instructor.72 years.experience between goju,aikdio,and kendo

shi, 30 plus years.goju and shotokan

me, 26 years aikido.

thats 128 years combined knowledge of 6 of the most respected japanese martial arts styles.

joel. thx for the help, these guys are hard to convince of anything, but you helped me out a ton.

all this did was prove my credibilty.

Lol. You're a genuinely crazy guy

I take it that when you eventually move on from here, move to your next forum, under yet another name, you will copy and paste all the good info and material we have given you on here as your own to.

Delusional to the Nth degree.

When you were a youngster, and your best friend lost his cherry, did you mark your bed post too? or was his experience unique to him, with no vicarious qualatative value to you?

Did you read a romance novel and decide you knew all there was to know about love?

Did you study footage of Walter Payton and put yourself in the hall of fame?

You have nothing to offer on Karate. You have 8 years formal training in Aikido (if you havent assumed that part of your persona from some bloke on another forum as well), and a handful of fortune cookies and quotes from 'Kung-Fu'.

Well done though, the one thing you genuinely are, is a very good troll. No wonder, what with the effort you put into it.

Tragic, yet somehow impressive.

why dont you go register at that site and ask shishoshin if he knows anything about me?

actually heres a email from him to my me and my daughter,championships at naska events

here is the email
tip for becky - from the moment she approaches the mat, for kata demonstration/testing
she must be aware of her thumb placement.. three joints, all must be in correct
alignment depending on the waza.. the thumb has an extensive neural network
controlling it, ie, a large actual brain mass, which must be 'switched on' as part of
her kata and her own mind control development.. seems a minor thing.
if you dont know.. the thumb position and energy directed thru it[them] changes
with changing waza.. it isnt, just a matter of bending them, or not bending them..
this requires understanding of the waza, and use of the mind to know and use
correct alignments etc.. even a kata with all closed fist forms [ie, kihon kata]
will demonstrate poor form [and inactive brain area] if you place a coin
between the thumbs and fists when they perform the kata..

in a class situation esp of novices [but not always, novices] you will hear
'tinkle, tinkle, tinkle' as the coins fall to the dojo floor...
thus even a passive coin can 'tell you' about your waza..

for easy regular practice, hold a soft solid rubber ball using the various hand forms
while practicing, and performing parts of kata in training, or when watching tv
or walking or sitting on the toilet.. the thumb form will change when using an open
hand form which looks more or less the same to the untrained eye, going from
one phase of an uke waza to the next [from intercept to grasp] also when the kata
[such as tensho, an excellent kata when performed correctly] where the same
hand form can be either uke or uchi.. you will know, and the trained observer
will know, from slight changes in thumb form...

thats one brief hint, using thumb form, which carries a principle which suffuses
all of, the karate waza, thru all of, the real kata..
there is more to real karate than meets the eye..
and training your thumb [and mind control/training] doesnt, end..

well, there goes another satellite i suppose..
but the thought crossed my mind, so there it is
along with 'how its going'..

best wishes to you and becky
in your ma and in your lives..


so open your big mouth cord and stuff that foot as far you can down your throat.

Busted!!!

Does this link look familiar? (copy and paste links)
http://www.martialedge.net/forum/martial-arts-talk/go-pai-sho-'kata'-analysis./#21741


I'll paste the juicy parts.



You are in fact firecat on that forum, are you not? Firecat's profile reads as so:
Instructor Info-
My Qualifications: second dan aikido
My Background: 26 years
Date Started Teaching: 01-01-91

School Info-
Post Code / ZIP: 61101 (Rockford Il)
Contact No: 8155884598 (I haven't tried the phone #, anybody up for it?)

http://www.martialedge.net/member/firecat/


There was also this post where another user laid you out for everyone to see as quote mining and falsely changing quotes from other sources that you would not link to.
http://www.martialedge.net/forum/martial-arts-talk/go-pai-sho-'kata'-analysis./12/24/#21766



My dear friend, Cord, I know you would like to be original, but you are not the first to equate our newest friend here to the powerful Black Knight. This one made me laugh really hard.
http://www.martialedge.net/forum/martial-arts-talk/go-pai-sho-'kata'-analysis./12/48/#21804

Holy chit! I spit out my water on the busting of cherry and him marking his own bed post...Too funny!

I have noticed the copy/past since he started. One can see the change in format when he types of puts in something from somewhere else.

To me, 8 years formal training does not equal 26 years...If that is true, I could say the same thing. I stopped training Koei Kan karate in mid 90's when I was about 23/24. I made it up to shodan. Per your logic I have 19 years of experience/training. WOO-HOO.

When I mention my karate experience I only say I have about 6-7 years formal training/experience. I occasionally practice my katas and maybe once a year head home to my old dojo for instruction.

I can't remember who said it but good point about how you can speak of karate if you are an aikidoka. Especially talking bunkai and kata when you never trained in karate?

so very sad

My god!! Paul/tkddad/firecat40 has had the exact same conversations on the exact same topics on multiple fora.

And never, ever, EVER finds anyone that will see the sense in what he is saying.

As for those PM's, wow, compelling evidence. Who did you copy and paste those from and who were they actualy for?

Understand the following, very clearly.

You have now been completely undone. The jig is up as far as this site is concerned. There is nobody here that will engage in any form of constructive discussion with you.
All that remains is to allow those you have talked sh1t to to enjoy their pound of flesh, and then you are gone.

How delicious is the irony that a thread on targets should end with you being a valid one.

The hyenas see it was not a lion after all, but bambi with flatulence, and they circle ever closer for the meal.

wow here i am saying i have no karate experience on the same forum.you should read the entire thread before you go mining post there joel

Re:Small Karate Tournaments. 1 Month, 2 Weeks ago
kinda sounds like that aikido stuff i heard about..stopping force without injury,.also kinda sounds like the difference someone said about running the 100 meter dash and rerunning it with a bear`chasing you.and dealing with the threat being the bear`instead of trying to outrun it...ya boy sounds like i just need to tone down my analogies..as soon as we get off this little island of whos who..i would be more than happy to take this as deep as you want to go..im still arguing a ma i have no training in other than correspondance..and holding my own...:)

elton john sang "im still standing" like alcatraz said.

i like journey,s "open my eyes to a new kind of way"

btw most of this was sarcastic.except the part where i said i have no karate experience.

the part you post mined about me being a 6th dan in goju was sarcasm .go read it again.

as far usiing the same post on different forums.
dobbersky put up identical post here and on martial edge, he even used the same responce to the next person who commented and brought it here.so

you can find this identical thread and its comments by koku tora on martial edge


I ask this question as I speak with many Martial artists around the world and when they say "We do Weapons in our school" and I ask "What for?" the only answer I get is "its Fun...” or "It gives us something else to do in our syllabus..."


I respond isn't the karate you've learnt/taught good enough as if you have to resort to weapons then you're not confident in your own abilities.

I spoke to one "Shotokan Blackbelt" who advised that they have a Bo and a Jo near the door just in case someone comes at them with a baseball bat etc. I advised that great, what about "Tai Sabaki".

I don't see the need to train in weapons as I'm not allowed to carry them in the street and the chances of coming across someone "well trained" in weapons on the street, well, I got more chance of winning the lottery.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this topic?

Thanks

Ken

Bambi farts again.

#22617
Koku Tora (User)

Forum Orange Belt

Posts: 175



Weapons Training???? Why is your Karate not good.. 1 Week ago
Weapons Training???? Why is your Karate not good enough?

I ask this question as I speak with many Martial artists around the world and when they say "We do Weapons in our school" and I ask "What for?" the only answer I get is "its Fun...” or "It gives us something else to do in our syllabus..."


I respond isn't the karate you've learnt/taught good enough as if you have to resort to weapons then you're not confident in your own abilities.

I spoke to one "Shotokan Blackbelt" who advised that they have a Bo and a Jo near the door just in case someone comes at them with a baseball bat etc. I advised that great, what about "Tai Sabaki".

I don't see the need to train in weapons as I'm not allowed to carry them in the street and the chances of coming across someone "well trained" in weapons on the street, well, I got more chance of winning the lottery.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this topic?

Thanks

Ken

dobbersky your now a troll

i seen a post by zombie zero about name calling on this forum being a mirror of your intelligence that was put in 08 by another screen name on a different forum

Paul - here's your sign! lol

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1922084

Did you have permission to share that PM with us? You were plenty pi$$ed when I posted our private discussion weren't you?

I thought giving out even first names on the internet was to be avoided? You just let the whole WWW know your daughters name, when you are terrified of giving your own
Dad of the year right there.

If you had copied and pasted your own words, and if your intent and activity had not been shown to be so uniformly, predictably, and calculatingly disruptive across all 3 (so far) fora, then I wouldnt give a to$$ that you had taken the odd shortcut on topics that inevitably overlap and crop up across numerous chatrooms involved in the same field of interest.

Busted Bambi. What was it you were so fond of signing off with? oh yeah 'I smell candy' . Not suprising, as it was in your pants all along.

Toodles.

Cord

Read your resume in the last thread. You can totally be my body guard. The job is yours.

A kind endorsement Tek, thanks for the thought, but in the land of the free (to bear arms), you might want someone with a gun license and a bit of military experience. I think I am more 'minder' material than full bodyguard - my dad was lead close protection officer for the RHKP in the mid to late 60's, responsible for royal and dignitaries including Princess Margaret, the Sultan of Brunei and Park Chung Hee on their visits to Hong Kong. Indeed, he was offered the role of head of security for Chung Hee after his visit to Hong Kong, but knowing the volatility of the country, and with such a good career in progress, he respectfully declined. History shows this to have been a wise decision.

But when you have a guy like this respect and love you, and be impressed with the operation you work in and for, it explains why a p1ssant like this fool can't make so much as a dint in my confidence.

I wish I had a deeper knowledge of psychology, way beyond the very superficial grounding that I do. You would prove to be a fascinating case study.
Not that your deficiencies are so much unique, but it's how representative you are of a (Sadly) somewhat common condition: The person with such low self esteem that he/she, in order to compensate, inflates and/or embellishes his/her knowledge or accomplishments, to the point of outright lies. He/she then blocks the truth from him-/herself and attempts to make others believe this inflated view of self, while simultaneously tearing them down to elevate him-/herself in his/her own eyes and those of gullible others.
When scepticism is encountered of the exaggerated self image, the frustration felt by the impostor explodes into the kind of rage you've shown here.
An anonymous, virtual forum such as this is a superb culture medium for your type. Here (And, apparently, in similar sites) you're free to make all kinds of claims without having to validate them if questioned. However, accepting the invitation which several here have playfully made (Because they know!) of showing up to the next get-together is something you'd rather be flayed alive than have to endure. Because you'd be exposed as the fraud you are, a fate (To you!) worse than death!
Despite having been unmasked as an impostor, I doubt very much you'll slink away from here. Because your new mission in life is to prove to us how we're WRONG and you're RIGHT. And this because we've forced you to face the truth about yourself, which is the one thing that's intolerable to you.
Still and all, I'll let the admin/mods know here and now that my vote would be not to ban you. This because although you don't contribute anything to a good discussion, you irk those capable of imparting good information into participating. And at this point that's a valuable contribution you unconciously make. So, until you psychologically decompress into rantings and it's time to let the Ban Hammer drop, live long and prosper, paul40!

MAGon - Very nicely put.

I smell greystain..lol or was it graystone....

...

ROTFLMAO!!!! OMG!!! He actually claimed to be a 6th dan in Shoreikan? Cord, yet again, elegantly captured it:



Personally, the most awe-inspiring part to me is how this guy can get all and sundry to reject him for the exact same reasons... But he's not wrong, the rest of the world is! Delusion of this magnitude is definitely tragic but impressive.

Lol I read that thread at the other forum...funny stuff.

The "peacock fighting" thing is pretty funny.

Yeah... And, on sober thought, pathetic as well. Can you imagine having such a poor self image as to be willing to risk being outed as a buffoon, just on the off chance that you could impress the more gullible folks?
Am I glad I have a life!

you boys are desperate for a win,

consider this for a second.if i am a troll.what does that say for you tools?

you came at 10 on 1 and got spanked.by a troll.

lets keep this is perspective,

magon, if your a shrink,
your a quack.

yes cord, my kids name is becky. wow,im sure somebody will hunt down the only becky in rockford il.we live in an area of about 250000 thousand people.

why dont you go read those threads and see who quit at the end.and who got schooled on there own styles.
\
if you go read those threads you will see i said many times i had no karate experience but was handing them there butt on a platter.

i know you guys are jerking off ove rhtis but its futile when completly opened up.

I am having flashbacks of the 2nd gulf war, The Iraqi guy on TV telling the world how Saddam's armies were crushing the invading forces...meanwhile back at the palace...

That we're good at hammering trolls? Oh, wait, you meant "fools". Yeah, that's right, tangling with you is a stupid thing to do. But once in a while it's fun to wrestle in the mud with the pig.



Dude, go back and read my post. I said I wished I had a psychological background. Never said I was a shrink. The only person here that claims to be things he isn't is you, Mr. 6th dan peacock fighter.

This thread becomes more asinine by the post.

[Yes, including this one.]

It says we are patient, really bored, or both.



I can't believe you are still keeping it up Paul, that thread blasts any kind of credibility you have I would say...especially regarding Karate subjects.

Give up dude, ain't no one here buying it at this point.



I read the whole thread, no one got schooled in those threads, it was everyone else making legitimate arguments and trying to keep you on topic, and you making up all manner of sh*t and doing things like "oh yeah let's talk knife attacks" (LOL, btw).

In the end, you provided absolutely NO PROOF of anything in that thread, it was just ranting and trolling.

You have been 100% exposed, why not move on?

before you come back with the whole "omg everyone's attacking me" thing...

I have found myself at odds in my way of thinking with many folks on this board, but they were completely right both to request some kind of reference to your credentials, and also in exposing the fact that you have been utterly untruthful about them.

So whats your excuse for your made up name 'Paul' ?

Only people who do not want to be discovered hide.

Becky xxxxxx of Infinity Martial Arts in Middleton, WI

link deleted


You can see videos of her competing here on Paul40's youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/tkddad2


Middleton is about 1.5 hours from Rockford.

Word to the wise, Paul. Letting people know your daughter's last name and exactly where she trains and what events she competes at gives quite a bit of info.

The point is well made Joel, but I have removed her surname, and the link to the MA club site, as troll he may be, but his daughter's full identity should not be compromised by us - its not her posting crud on here after all Youtube link left intact as public viewing is implicit in its existence
Cord.

Niiiice find!

Paul, ya be surprised what people are capable of. Oh and is that you in the ninja turtle outfit?

My apologies, Cord. I was re-thinking what I had just posted and was about to edit that. Thank you for correcting that for me.

No sweat dude, its easy to get caught up in a good row and get carried away. God knows I have done it more than you

I guess paulfiredad40 is lucky that this 'cr4ppy, unfair, candya$$' moderator is having a rare good day

If she ever gets bored of krotty, she has a career waiting as a black metal vocalist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

http://www.martialartstalk.net/forums/the-closet/49426-stop-with-the-troll-calling-already.html

17th post down by tkddad
date: 2009/12/20



He has no problem sharing other peoples' PM's to him, but you can't show his. Didn't you know that?

From the thread Joel linked:

Wow it appears what Paul40 did here has been like a grain of sand compared to the torrent of ....stuff on those other sites.

Whatever the case though, as a bored, stay at home Dad I must say this stuff delivers in the entertainment department.

you know cord, its all fun and games,boys will be boys,

but when you resort to insulting a 13 year old kid and using another video of a kid, it shows just how much of an worthless piece of [censored] you are.

donkey for life.

did i see where another guy is a stay at home dad?
wtf is a stay at home dad? you sit your lazy ass at home while your wife makes the money.You then go to a forum and find some way to play big man?

cord answers a ligitimate post about taking big hits with his bong hits?why am i not suprised your a poit head.just makes you even more worthless.

joel post my kids and school?

you have proved nothing with youe little finding of my post source other than what i said all along, i am not a karate expert but am affiliated with these people.big f-ing deal.
if i said i was a karate expert that would be different

i specifically stated i know 2 distinct people with high level knowledge.

here are some post from that site where i clearly stated the post i put up about kata were from somneone else.

Re:kata origins. 1 Month ago
I showed the same guy who wrote those kata descriptions,Trias cert.
he said he didnt need to see the cert because he knows Trias has a legit 10th dan.He said those signatures are legit,the stamps are legit,the cert was trias cert which he brought to be signed,they all signed it,its as good as gold.

He fully agreed the stamps have to be in red to be authentic,he also said this cert was copied and at the time it was copied he highly doubted there were color copiers.he has no doubt those stamps are in red on the original cert.

another one

You have still to name this, as yet, unidentified Goju 7th Dan.

As Tony pointed out, someone holding such a lofty grade would be known in the Karate community, if not personally, at least by name.

If the words attributed to this alleged 7th Dan are the basis and foundation of your POV, then you should name them as a source in exactly the same way that I did when I used Harry Cook Sensei as a source regarding the 'legitimacy' of Robert Trias and his 'certificate'.

heres another one;
call me a troll.say what you want,i would have to say if you want to prove that.proving i have no martial arts experience is the best way.testing my history knowledge of japanese karate something i have admitted a hundreed times now to have little knowledge of is pointless.

i claim to be a 26 year practioner of aikido.thats your target. i claim to be a self defense instructor. thats your target
i will not tell you where i do it ,but i will tell you how i do it,
i will not tell you who taught me but, i will tell you what he taught me.

i am also well versed in american tourament martial arts.and tae kwon do .itf style

so you can clearly see i dont claim to be the writer of those post.nor have i .nor have i claimed to be an expert on karate.i said i knw enough to knwo the difference.

when you guys get done chewing on this meatless bone,hopefuly you will realize you have nothing.,

if you go read those threads, small karate tounraments and kate origins,you will see those experts knew very little about there art.

and i stated hundred times there i wasnt an expert but seemed to more than them,same as i did here.

Hi, my name is Taison. You are banned.

Wait...

Who the (censored) disabled my banning powers????

-Taison out

the issues those experts over there staed were that

1) okinawan martial arts had no chinese influence

2)no okinawan kata came from china

3)thyere is no animal influence in okinawan kata

4)robert tria is not recognized in japan

5)his style is not recognized in japan

6)higaoona did not train in china

7)the animal name in kata is only the name and the kata has nothing to do with the animal.


the final post by alcatraz to me was thank you for the birthday greeting,im willing to drop all this if you are.

this came on the heels of me finding his identical post he posted in 04 on another forum.

its all in balck and white.
after you take a bong hit or put the kids down for a nap go read away.


oh how cute,somebody hacked my signature.i see kids do that on myspace all the time.was that you pot head?or was it Mr mom

Your powers of comprehension are laced with fail. 1. I didnt insult your daughter. I said her kiai sounded similar to the gutteral screech that is synonamous with the vocal stylings associated with a sub-genre of Rock music called 'Black Metal' . Youtube 'Venom', 'Cradle of Filth' or 'Dimmu Borgir' and see if I am wrong.
Female fronted bands in this genre to very well, so she could have a good career if she chose to go that route.
2. The 'I like turtles' clip is a)a famous viral, b) hilarious, and c) posted in relation to the ninja turtle comment, that never had anything to do with your daughter

Now if I posted this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyiKKWrdFm4

and then said something like, 'your daughter needs more help than an email with her technique' or something similar, then blast away.

But i didnt. Hope this puts things in perspective

I am also the moderator who removed links to your surname. You are welcome.




So does this mean that stay at home mothers/home makers are lazy as well? Sexist ignorant buffoon.



Not that easy hoss. Been cigarrette and drug free for nearly 7 years now. Alcohol at christmas, halloween and family birthdays only.



No. You said you were taught, and have studied Aikido, and written and recieved correspondance from someone who did shotokan. Even if that was 'knowing' them, big fuggin deal. I know the heads of most of the depts. in the University of Cambridge , does that mean I have a handle on over 200 academic subjects!!?? Bet your troll-butt I dont.



None of which you wanted to divulge on there, and none of which you offered freely on here.
You want people to cross reference several sites, play 'where's wally' with your user names, and drudge through the same 'groundhog day' dance you have had on every other site, just so we can come to the conclusion that you are a clueless arrogant pr1ck!!??

Eat me.

Paul40/tkddad/firecat/whatever has been banned. We wish him well as he continues his unhinged, demented, fraudulent voyage on the stormy seas of the information super highway. God help those at his next port of call

Let's hope he ends up at Bullshido next.

If you believe him, he is a moderator on Bullshido

Bless.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Shouldn't be too hard to find out which mod there claims 26 years aikido experience. Not that I care anymore.

It is a shame, because he is not completely without knowledge and he could have some good info to share. But he apparently never learned to play well with others. Or learned how to talk to others for that matter.

There are other aikidoka out there Joel, and I am not sure that he was one anyway. If you can google, or steal posts from other forums/people on karate, you can do it for anything. Even if his aikido is/was for real, there are many with more experience,most with more real knowledge and nearly all who will/would be more pleasant to interact with.
8 years is not going to get you menkyo kaiden, hell, the dolt couldn't even spell it.

No loss, and we give him more credit than he is worth by continuing to talk about him

Someone already banned him?

Unfair!

Who removed my almighty ban hammer???

I'm so going to crack skulls over this.

-Donnie

Dude, you could have just taped it down to get work in one of those bars in your town, you didnt have to go all surgical about it!!

I found it. I loved having the big red button on people's name that instantly banned them.

I'm going to go ban MattJ now.

-Donnie

MattJ's account can no longer be found

So is he banned?

I don't know who banned paul40, but kudos. I was really getting tired of that guy, and I was just about to ban him myself for the "lazy stay at home dad" insult.

If it's not done already, I'm also going to IP/email ban him.

So why exactly do we need targets?

It's encoded amongst the dozens of personal attacks, counter-attacks, and cries of BS! You just have to find those posts hidden in between.

But, I think we came up with timing, muscle memory in regards to contact and resistance, and helping proper foot alignment. (i.e. learnig to pull toes out of the kick, or use the heel, or blade, or ball of the foot, etc.)

Anyone? Feel free to correct me. That is if you want to keep adding to this never-ending thread in a final effort to wrench it back on topic.

It all depends of your definition of target. Personally my target is behind the target.

There has to be an 'intention' and a movement that follows. Muscle memory is based on that. That's why people get really good at doing the wrong thing. (Like 'tapping' targets, always...)

Oh, shoot! I've been away since Thursday, because I was moving to my recently purchased house, and I seem to have missed the final fun with paul40. Ah, woe is me! Oh, well, just to eke out the last of the fun:

Gotta agree as well as disagree with some of what you guys wrote.



Granted! But as I've said, sometimes it's fun to wrestle with the pig in his sty.



Joel, you're right. The guy is bright enough, but his intelligence is more than a bit twisted. I mean, he's able to extract enough information from articles he reads to at least be able to argue somewhat plausibly with people that are the real McCoy. But what's that say about his intellectual honesty?




Cord, you're right on the money here. I kind of suspected Paul's credentials in Aikido, based on what he did in order to argue about Karate. But since I, in contrast to him, don't argue about stuff I have no personal knowledge of, and since I don't know beans about Aikido, I refrained.
He seemed more grounded about it, though. I kinda suspect he studied it some, but nowhere near as much as he claimed, read up on it, and passed himself off as someone with 26 yrs. of study. Pathetic!



Nah, here we disagree. I would say he is something of a loss. Note that he instigated 29 pages of discussion. That's never happened before.
He could be by turns tiresome and entertaining. I don't like him, but I think I'll miss him.

The biggest danger of not using targets--i.e. of punching and kicning into the air--is that you don't how to aim. You just tend to kick at a comfortable height. Kicking into the air is a very bad habit.

I dunno, I think striking into the air has some merit. And just because there is no target doesn't mean your aim is off. I remember my days of karate and we did a lot of strikes to the air and I had pretty good aim/control when we worked with pads/partners.

There is plenty of merit in kicking and punching in the air. It's about the focus of the exercise. When doing a technique in the air you can breakdown form without the impact.