Learning Kickboxing/Sanda as a Pastime

Hi all,

I'm looking for a martial arts gym. I am willing to commit about 3-4 classes a week at 1-2 hours a class. Is kickboxing/sanda/sanshou an activity that I can do this with? Or should I just stick with a TKD/Karate school?

I want a lifelong hobby that keeps me in shape and teaches me some legitimate self-defense techniques. TKD has taught me a good skill set, but it does have some glaring weaknesses especially if you get away from point sparing. I'm looking for something more varied than point sparring, but something less than full contact ring fights.

all systems have weaknesses, just as do all people practising them.

The best thing is to try a range of classes in your area, and choose the art that captures your imagination, or that you feel you have a natural affinity with.

Its always down to the individual - an awesome TKDer will be more effective than a terrible judoka. Its how good you are with the tools you have.

I didn't mean to make this into which style is better. However, I was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the kickboxing/boxing is much more competition oriented and therefore more time demanding for conditioning and training. I'm wondering if anyone has gotten anywhere in kickboxing with 3-8 hours a week as a pastime or is it better to take traditional martial arts? With that being said, I plan on joining the kickboxing class as a trial, but I wanted hear some opinions out there too.

You can enjoy, and learn boxing and kickboxing without living a 'Rocky' montage
Sure, if you plan to compete at any level, you would be wise to do some complimentary fitness training, but that is the same for any TMA also. You should be fit to do your activity, not use your activity alone to get fit.

If you went to a thai, kickboxing, boxing or savate class 3-4 times a week, there is no reason why you should not improve and reap rewards from that training.

Remember that competetive fighters dont train for hours on end, day after day. They have very modest training regimes inbetween fights, and scale up training in the 8-12 weeks prior to the fight, with the aim of reaching a physical peak just in time for their competition. They then have plenty of rest and recovery, as maintaining such levels is unrealistic and unhealthy.

For amateur competion, or as a hobby, most people find 2-4 sessions a week just fine to see improvement in skill and performance.

Hi,

Cord is, as usual, quite right.

My best input here, so as to not repeat cords prior replies

1.)You will definitively learn and get a good workout in the time mentioned esp. if the lead Instructors are well qualified with much training in time. Examples always help reinforce points...My Karma lead me to a MT Instructor who, as a Marine was stationed in Thailand where he not only trained but competed (successfully at that). Mr. Jones also boxed and in 2 yrs my approach and ability punching improve so much I realized (I must Admit) he was better at it and teaching it than the instructors of my base style.

2.)when researching for a school a nice way to evaluate a skilled instructor is to observe the kyu rank students techniques (if a novice, find a friend who has good training in that style and drag him with to observe, please be polite in the peanut gallery and get his opinions out of dojo, some may be negative)

3.)with a excellent instructor, tho ,yes, every style has its weakness, focused training in time shows every style can be effective...just how fast you wish to gain good SD is a variable.

4.)I hope its not Tae bo:), but for workout intensity and (remembering GIGO) SD skills in a not 30 yr time Boxing wins and kickboxing is a perfect pairing. say probably 2 yrs at your time frame w/ an excellent instructor maybe can self defense one semi-trained opponent. is this MT or Bill Wallace type kickboxing? MT more effective in my lowly opinion.

5.) OPTIONS:

A.)Dedicated Boxing only would be my first choice, you train more the true basics of SD...footwork, head and body mobility, auto read distance, learn your own distance, read an attack on the preparation, there are more ultimate basics which so many never train...with just the 1st two you are ahead of lots of MA. And you wont be sore anymore after the first few years:). STAMINA!!!If one cannot skip rope for 3 min yo a 70y/o, medicine ball training, Boxing wins.
B.)Pure MT always trains boxing too and will (if Instructor worth his salt) train all the above. add more leg pain tho:)...MT only is basically a tie w/ boxing IMHO, and w/ thigh and thrust kicks, clenching and repetitive power Knee adds a rounding out dimension of upper and lower body tools for attack

Bonus of both NO KATA:)
Negative:Get health ins. accidents happen and gettin a weave on your split open and swelled shut eye costs (Hey you might be foolish enough to duck into a knee, it happens).Scars are no biggie lest yo a face model

my brief input

Karl. Peace.

Thx for the responses.

The course is Sanda or basically Chinese kickboxing. I was hoping to use it to supplement the Kung Fu course they teach. Another thing I have to wonder. Is Sanda anyway related to traditional Kung Fu?

I'm not attracted to Muay Thai or Boxing at all. I'm not looking to participate in full contact fights, but merely an application of what I'm learning. I realize Sanda is a full contact sport, but since there's no sparring in Kung Fu, how else do you apply the style in a fight?

Hi,

Sorry not familiar w/ sanda.

I'd like to leap here...youve practiced some Gung Fu?

Might be hard to find...especially with a good instructor (I'll point to the web home page of the best whose ever taught me so you can get a pic in mind)

Ba Gua, Hising-I with an instructor trained in Qi Gong.

Ba Gua looks like a soft style till you guess the applications (not always revealed till they eval your moral standpoint) (e.g. the opening of the 1st palm change is a slow Lt to rt sweeping of the hands w/ a hip twist...looks useless..NOT, its most simple application ends in complete separation of the arm from shoulder socket tearing all muscles and ligaments and if hard enough probably rupture the large artery in armpit.)

back to point, maybe this sanda employs a type of contact sensitivity like Tai Chi push hands?

look up Huangtaichi google should do. again I got so blessed to have some training w/ Master Huang, I've come to love the Qi Gong more. and no he didnt teach me the application...I guessed and asked, I was right only as i've mastered nothing but am ok at a strange mix , had 24ish years in different cities, guess that makes me kinda lame tho

Karl. Peace.

Hey Karl,

Sanda is kick boxing except with grappling, throws and leg sweeps. I've watched videos of Sanda bouts on youtube and it looks nothing like Kung Fu. No low stances, no circular arm strikes and etc. It looks just like a kick boxing match. Jabs, hooks, crosses, round kicks, pushing kicks, but also judo throws and take downs.

I don't quite want to get into full contact though. I've never trained boxing/kickboxing. I've only done TKD, where sparring is medium/light contact. I was wondering if just training boxing/kickboxing is medium contact as well or do they train full contact? I don't want to be a drag to other people taking the class by not going full contact, especially since some of them actually do compete.

On a side note. I've always liked Tai Chi. I was considering taking that as a hobby instead. How do you compare Tai Chi with something that looks more aggressive like TKD?

Hi Quatin,

well put questions, I was going to mention the MT question you just asked...

I'm selfish I was hoping you might visit Master Huangs' site and choose one or both ...sorry

I trained in daytona... straight up MT with boxing after class (Mr. Jones helped some middle wts and a few scary heavy prep for Japan boxing circut so they can move faster in US). as to matches one could opt out, ask for light or med contact, no full on thrashing except for the longtimers prepping for a tournament.

A word about training/contact and pain...:)....
training was not fighting...but,even with a pad, practice roundhouse to common perneal nerve on the side of the thigh above the knee...well I guess one could have ask to ease up, I didnt cause I'm stupid, itll drop ya then itll hurt like hell eventually you might take 4-5 solid shots before collapsing, limping or switching sides.

Medicine ball, timed seems simple and easy til a minute or two go by. If you are not used to properly skipping a jumprope...your first time maybe you no walk right for a week and stairs are out. Training is Pain, I suppose you could ask to go easy but you lose the benefit.

Training you should expect and want contact, its not a match, you will hurt for ~2-3 months, bruising is always. But no one HAD to fight, light contact is a good place to stay cause train all you want but you need to play, thats the only way to inherit the SD aspect. THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN TO FIGHT IS TO FIGHT, light contact will do most, what is lost if you dont occasionally ramp up intensity is...you've never been HIT, so what happens on the street where psycho Two-Fry sucker punches you...you drop or panic or freeze and this is someone who hurt for the rush, you are toast my friend.

so yeah light contact was an option at our school, but I'm just pointing out that if you never step up and get your bell rung (And more than once), you get suckered you will either go red out to tunnel to black out...often head gear is available I have 2 good reasons I dont like it.
also you are safer than a kickboxing class, they generally use those generic Karate hands and feet, good MT you got wrap and 16oz boxing gloves, get a hard face shot those karate pads are stupid, probably get you face broken...bad part of sharing boxing gloves is the smell you want to wash off, its so rank if i had the $$$ i'd have bought my own

sorry no bullets to break thing up but i think you'll get the drift, gotta play to learn how to use techniques in motion on balance with force and all the while adapt to random changes by moving opponent....and I didnt mean to go drop hands and get clocked, rather as intensity is escalated your gonna get hit some time, its learning to maintain consciousness and cover and move till the vision and noggin clear up...

Karl. Peace.

Hey Quatin,

i need to make an aside about Sanda now that youve givem info and my problem w/ STANDARD dojo headgear

1.) just like MT if you are going to be practicing throws, I dont know if you've been tossed sooo, if they wear Gi than an advanced (and kindly) partner can use your gi to ease your fall if you mention you are new and ask to be eased down, they just hold on and as body is meetin mat they kind advanced partner just needs to pull up as you breakfall, you MUST learn how to breakfall (Benefit of judo, jujitsu and aikido experience)
sadly or maybe better for me most Karate folk really cant breakfall if you threw them on 3 downy mattresses, not that they wernt taught right its repetition, I learned in Aikido, some nights Oshima Sensei (must just been onry) choose techniques where the only thing to do was a breakfall, really onry we did breakfalls where nage was suwarazi (on knees in seiza). a breakfall done well when one was standing(in Aikido...not judo necessarily) really doesnt hurt (ON A MAT!! make note), a breakfall when thrown initially near the mat is close to a judoka throwing and just letting you drop.
So you will have to learn to fall and as with most things, even if nage helps you down you will feel your organs jarr and (hopefully not) your legs might slap together, cup or no thats going to rack the jewels (stand up and jump up and down landing hard on heels (contrary to some older posts I Ignored, past a very young age the testicles cannot be drawn up into the pelvis too big, it is a real practice but it starts very young and makes one sterile), Testicular Torsion is an emergency.

just as my comment on MT,it holds true for throws, you can ask easy but sooner or later ya gotta be throwndown, hitting the mats from a throw and release...well you will appreciate the pain from liver and spleen (a good punch to the liver drops all but the boxers and MT, spleen too)

so Sanda you will be thrown-hard, you get better at falling and the internal organs toughen up and I have a rule of thumb, new student should be thrown more that he/she gets to throw and before throwing if new dont just set and throw, practice the set 10 times then throw. If the set isnt right the throw will be you.

Grappling. learn to tap fast and loud, escape save for when better, new and you try to get out of a good armbar, the dislocated elbow should be ok in 3 months. Choke tap please and ignore what I say next, the first10-20 times you get choked out, you will have sucha cool buzz, but tap out please, there's a reason I have a titanium neck...grappling will teach you to relax, try muscle everything you wont last AND THE BEST FIGHTERS ARE LOOSE AND RELAXED

Sanda....kickboxing, your face and brain are safer with boxing gloves not thin foam pads, most ever MA except boxing and some mma use the same stupid foam head protection, I have nothing against wearing head gear if its profesional grade leather boxing head gear (thicker padding in the right places, proper opening for ears and straps so good that head shot wont....why those foam karate head gear are actually dangerous, minor but no fun when you are sweating and take a head shot prob60-70% of the time the head gear rotates and you are now a blind punching bag, boxing head gear is well strapped, the ear hole on foam POS, I took a hook that made a seal over the ear hole...ruptured eardrum, little blood see MD use pointy light and says yup i can see the torn part, but since its ruptured all you hear is fuzzz, antibiotic drops and walk around with a cotton swab for 2-3 weeks, might just get full hearing back.

SOOO...chip out$$$ and get professional leather boxing head gear if you plan to wear such. if the kickboxing uses the foam hands demand good control or dont get hit at all, if foam feet (standard)the person heel kicking your head better know sparring foot position for heel kick vs. street, heel will crack your skull

nuf

Karl. peace.

Sanda

Well, I went to the class. The instructor didn't let me spar with the regulars, but let me spar a couple guys with the instruction "go light on him." We wore 12oz boxing gloves and shin guards. Nothing eventful came of it.

However, I was watching the regulars fight and they were really going at it. These guys apparently train to fight in MMA and I saw at least 2-3 fight stopping injuries. (Nothing serious, 10 minutes later they were fighting again.)

I'm actually re-thinking about joining this. I was told if I didn't want to go full contact I didn't have to. However, the whole tradition of a formal martial arts system was not present in this class. I was hoping to find something that combined a traditional martial art with realistic stand up fighting. I think I will continue my search, but if I can't find anything, good instruction in stand up fighting is still better than unrealistic hand wavy martial arts.

Thx for the comments all.

If you were not thrown to the wolves, but allowed to start gently, and if you have been told you have an option about the level of contact, then this sounds like a great school

Of course watching experienced guys spar hard looks scary and daunting - it did to them too when they were watching from where you are now

They have built not only their skills, but their pain resistance and confidence, as they increased the intensity of their journey.

That is the kind of training that actually helps you defend yourself in a real situation. You cant say to an attacker 'I am not used to dealing with this sort of thing, can you go a bit easy on me please'. You can in that class, and you can use it to build yourself to where you are not scared of sparring, but others are wary of sparring you.

Punches hurt, kicks hurt. Training or in public. Welcome to the real world, I suggest you jump in

Cord is absolutely right about the "not being thrown to the wolves" part. It sounds to me like they have their s#@t together.

One thing I would add is, you should be able to spar with the more experienced guys at times. They 'should' have their egos in check enough to allow you into the experience without getting clobbered.

Once you're in, you should be progressively challenged. Which judging from what I've read so far, seems to be exactly how they do it. If so, you've found a great place.

well modern Sanda has lost a lot of tradition behind it, but its origin are completely from traditional chinese martial arts.

you said that they also offered kungfu classes, maybe you should attend one and see how it goes. Ask the instructor there about the integration between the "traditional" class and the sanda class.

And as for sparring in kungfu...it exists and is also sometimes referred to as san-da or san-shou! so there is a link between traditional and modern, however finding a school that teaches both is often very hard to find.