Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities.
Posted by: Prizewriter
Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/14/09 05:14 PM
I have read a few threads on here about different ideas people have for self-defence that have nothing to do with martial arts. I want to summarize them here briefly. They are all activities that can be worked at or studied that may be beneficial in a Self Defence situation:
Bodybuilding/Strength Conditioning: Using a variety of sound training methods (e.g. machines, free weights, body weight) the body is built/strengthened. Possible benefits for SD include superior physical strength to attacker/s, additional protection for the body and psychological factors such as intimidation (i.e. someone appears "big" or "strong", which may effect the response of aggressors).
Running/Speed Training: Somewhat similar to above. Running is done as exercise. It can increase endurance of the body and its vital systems. Sprint training or speed training can be done to allow increased acceleration/explosive power in a running/flight situation.
Parkour/Free Running: I think everyone is familiar with these systems. Although differences between the two are clear (Parkour is about efficient movement through space, Free Running is more of a sport). If correctly trained, both could be very useful in a flight situation.
Dogs: Man (and woman’s) best friend. As a dog lover and owner myself, I can attest to the superb potential for dogs in civilian defence, be it from early warning to possible deterrent. Its not fair to say all dogs are suited to guard/defensive duties. For some breeds of dogs of this it is against their nature to be aggressive. Some individual dogs may not have it in their nature either. Some owners may not want their dog to do this. Owner education is something anyone can study. Their are dog handling/training courses in most places.
LEO Engagement & Training: Many places in the world allow civilians to participate in law enforcement training/work (even on a voluntary basis) to some degree. I am aware of one such scheme in parts of England. People give up a small amount of their own time each week/month and assist in police duties. Awareness of how the law and police work and train may be of benefit pre/post an attack.
Self-Defence Education: Education from people like Geoff Thompson and Marc MacYoung. A lot of the ideas and strategies put forward by people like these can be very effective, and most of these ideas don’t involve physical violence e.g. Awareness, Avoidance, de-escalation, listening to your instincts etc…
These are very very brief points on all of the above. They are succinct encompassments of my own thoughts based on some of the posts here and some of my own ideas. They are not definitive by any means, and can quite rightly be challenged if you feel you want to!
I posted them up here because I wanted people to think and, if they want to, discuss the potential in looking at these activities (or any others you can think of) as alternatives to martial arts in relation to Self Defence.
Many people put a lot of time, money and effort in to training martial arts. On some level, I feel most people who study martial arts are interested in SD in some shape or form.
I honestly don't know though how effective a lot of martial arts would be based on my own experience. I am not interested personally in defending myself, but a lot of people who ask me about martial arts do so with self defence in mind. So I started thinking about the alternatives to MA.
Anyone any thoughts on any of this?
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/14/09 05:18 PM
What are you, some kind of hippy?! Hitting people FTW.
J/K, man. Good post that covered a lot of the alternatives. I would add weapons to that list.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/14/09 06:42 PM
Quote:
Self-Defence Education: Education from people like Geoff Thompson and Marc MacYoung. A lot of the ideas and strategies put forward by people like these can be very effective, and most of these ideas don’t involve physical violence e.g. Awareness, Avoidance, de-escalation, listening to your instincts etc…
You know you are preaching to the converted with me on all of this Prize, but in a coincidence as only life can throw at you, I had this article forwarded to me by my Savate/jkd instructor via email tonight, and I think it addresses things very nicely- nothing new, but very clear.
Quote:
Your 'Safety Barometer'
by Diana Rathborne (Minnesota Kali Group, USA)
While we can’t plan for everything or avoid all possibly hazardous
situations, a good ‘Safety Barometer’ can keep you (and those in your
charge) safe with a little practise and not too much work. Detailed
below are the elements to developing your own self defense barometer
and skill set.
First, pay attention to your surroundings. If something seems ‘off’,
take a moment to identify what it is. Is it a person? Is something in
the environment out of place? Is it something that is usually there,
not? Is a door that should be closed, ajar? Are all the lights
working, etc? This process is called the OODA loop. The OODA loop has
been used by civilians and military alike for decades to observe,
evaluate and change a situation to effect the safest outcome in a
potentially violent encounter. The acronym stands for Observe - Orient
- Decide - Act. The moment you observe something wrong, orient on what
it is, decide what to do and do it. The process is fluid and requires
constant reassment until you feel you are safe.
For example, while you are walking down the street, you observe that
you have an uncomfortable sense that something is not right. You
orient on your environement and the people within it. You see someone
who makes you uncomfortable. You can’t see anything specifically
identifying the person as a threat, but you orient on your discomfort.
You decide to put more distance between you and the person and change
directions. You have affected all 4 stages of the OODA loop. You are
not done, however. As you change direction, you notice he has also
changed direction and begins to follow you. You now check for all
avenues of escape, choose the one directing you towards the most other
people and move toward it. He turns and walks away. Whether you can
articulate a reason or not, your discomfort indicates a need to
evaluate and change your environment.
The old adage that an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of
cure is dead on in the self defense realm. The best self defense skill
you can develop is to not be in a situation that can turn to a violent
encounter.
Violence prevention, for the most part, hinges on a few small things
that are easy to do. First, develop your awareness and OODA loop
skills. Next, develop a ‘self defense’ mode/attitude. It should
include: how you walk, how you use your awareness, voice and posture
to convey that not only are you paying attention to everything in your
environment, but that you will fight to defend yourself. This mode
should not be one of bluster, bravado or aggression. A calm,
determined attitude and athletic stance will convey your ‘power’ and
determination.
Third, eliminate yourself from a possible attackers ‘Victim Selection
List’. This also is fairly easy to do unless you have a stalker or a
personal connection with a violent person. (If you are in this
category, you need to address the problem IMMEDIATELY. Utiliize the
police, victim advocates, a shelter and all other appropriate
professionals.) To be on a bad guy’s ‘Possible Victim’ list he/she
first needs to notice you. To avoid this all you need to do is not
present the look of being a ‘profitable’ target. Easily removable
belongings of value such as a purse should be held close to your body.
Blending with your environment is always a good idea. A bikini at a
black tie event, for example, will draw attention to you. If you also
have on expensive jewelry with that bikini and appear intoxicated, you
are putting forward the message, “Look at me, I have money and I can’t
defend myself”... a siren song to a predator! An outrageous example,
yes, but the idea behind it is clear.
If no one chooses you as a victim, you have accomplished your self
defense goals in the easiest possible manner! To summarize, don’t get
chosen, change your environment immediately upon sensing a threat and
convey the impression that you are a ‘hard target’: you’ll be a lot of
work for little to no gain. Awareness, avoidence, attitude and action
are all essential elements to a functional ‘Safety Barometer’!
Posted by: trevek
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/15/09 03:06 AM
Errrm, would you laugh too loudly if I suggested team sports and dancing?
I'm thinking of the development of fitness, reaction time, explosive movement, awareness of body space and surroundings, increasing the ability to perform 'unusual' movements without planning, avoidance and also having a great bum (butt, for our colonial cousins).
Posted by: Ilove2Hit
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/15/09 07:42 AM
self defense has not to do a lot with MA. sure they teach u how to hit and block etc etc... but they dont show u how to defend urself. self defence doesnt have to do with the actual fighting. when u fight, u already lost. in my course (MT) there are also people who come and think that they will be more able to protect themselves if they practise MAs. that is right on the one hand because they learn blocks and punches, thought conditioning they become faster and stronger, they also build some lean muscle mass and (eventually) burn fat etc etc... they also get exposed in some degree to high adrenalin levels whenw e compete against each other in the ring or if we compete against much more expirienced fighters. this is good because we get used to the adrenalin and wont freeze so easily as if we´ve been never hit before or never been exposed to these levels before.
but what is said here is right. MA is MA. and SD is SD. so if u want to learn how to effectively defend yourself... do SD. if MA is ur aim, do MA.
i practiced over many years "Streetfighting SD". that was very helpful.
if u want to defend urself google or search in your local area for some school offering self defence courses. be also sure u check the instructor is qualified there are many (sorry the language) wanna-be-self-defence-instructors out there which are complete idiots! make sure you go there at least 2-4 times before commiting urself and giving them ur money. if the teacher is not qualified or seems strange to u, then do not join the school. u want him to teach u stuff that might safe ur life or that will make u go through your everyday life more easily.
important is to note that self defense is not the actuall fighting. in a real self defence course there will be a lot of talking on how to avoid a fight, what to do, what not to do etc etc.
if u join a school and the first thing ur instructor tell us is "okay, lets say someone wants to fight with you and graps your throat from the front" then just turn around and leave.
self defense does not start when it is getting physically, no sometimes not even when it gets verbal. sometimes it just starts with a look in someones eyes, you walking down the street or simply just a bad feeling in your stomach and your instinct telling you that something is wrong. and that is what self defense is about. knowing how to deal and face all these issues. not how to block some punch or reliefing urself from some sort of choke. its about getting urself out of all the steps that lead u in this choke.
- alex
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/15/09 08:02 AM
Godd stuff guys.
Trevek, I think you made a good point. JCVD once said the hardest thing he ever did wasn't karate, martial arts, or bodybuidling, it was ballet.
I was on a training course being taught by a big Scottish guy. He was about 6'3" and had a big frame. He had a lot of great stories to tell us to lighten up the week. He had played rugby for 35 years, and continued to coach the game.
He was on a train in Romania a couple of years ago. It was late at night and he had come from a Microsoft conference. He had a laptop with him. He said he nocticed two guys who were staring at him for a long time. He thought something was up.
Sure enough the carriage emptied and the two guys went into another carriage, leaving the big man alone. They came back 15 minutes later and tried to grab his laptop.
He said he gave a "Glasgow Kiss" to the "wee one" and the grabbed the other and "barged" him to the ground. Not too sure what he meant but he said the two muggers came of badly from it and he got off Scot Free (no pun intended). He said he reported it to the local police but they didn't seem to interested as a)he wasn't hurt and b) he still had his laptop. The guy said he was able to handle himself due to playing rugby as he had been in many a ruck.
I also recall a thread on here, it was one of the first threads I ever read. A guy was weighing up studying both BJJ and Aikido at the same time. He was saying that he had already started BJJ, but wanted to add Aikido.
He said that his BJJ coach said Aikido was fine, but in his opinion Aikido wouldn't be much use if a 250 pound American Footballer grabbed you (of course the coach mentioned BJJ would be useful in such a situation).
So obviously the BJJ coach viewed people who played American Football as being a threat and able to handle themselves!!!
Posted by: MAGon
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/15/09 08:13 AM
Speaking of coincidences, this is the second time in as many days that I've read something similar to the article you posted, and been involved in a similar discussion. In the other one Gavin de Becker's "The Gift of Fear" was mentioned. It expands on the topics of the article, and is a good read. I recommend it.
Sorry if I hijacked the thread!
Posted by: creative
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/15/09 10:46 AM
Good Topic. For me the best advice option for self defence is:
Quote:
Self-Defence Education: Education from people like Geoff Thompson and Marc MacYoung. A lot of the ideas and strategies put forward by people like these can be very effective, and most of these ideas don’t involve physical violence e.g. Awareness, Avoidance, de-escalation, listening to your instincts etc…
Funny how much effort some MAist can put into looking at stats of common attacks, tayloring their training to match; then go out to a pub/club/nightclub in the 'wrong' part of town with the wrong people drinking too much etc etc.
Quote:
MA is MA. and SD is SD. so if u want to learn how to effectively defend yourself... do SD. if MA is ur aim, do MA.
lol, this is confusing! Wat is the aim of MA? 
I think that when most people say that there aim is SD, what they are probably saying is they want to know how to defend themself in a fight situation. I think most people don't look at self defence holistically. People tend to think they are 'streetwise' and don't need help with the prevention/pre-confrontation aspect - which as most of the people here seem to agree is the important bit!
As for alternatives. Anything will help, better do Rugby and enjoy it than karate and hate it. Learn prevention and the chances of you needing to use self defence skills become minimal IMO.
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/15/09 11:55 AM
Quote:
MA is MA. and SD is SD. so if u want to learn how to effectively defend yourself... do SD. if MA is ur aim, do MA.
No, if you want to learn how to effectively defend yourself, find a good instructor.
There's just as much [censored] in self-defense courses as there are in martial arts schools.
Either way, I think firearm training should be added to the list.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/15/09 01:12 PM
OP when I started studied the MA it was in the reverse order you learned SD then you learned how to play tag with it to set our timing and distance. And through this you attained physical fitness and mental awareness gaining a spiritual oneness. I find it funny now that people study MA now to win trophies and like joining a fitness club. Some people are shocked that in the Midwest I got into so much, well drive by didn't get popular until guys start wearing braids and bowrats and pony tails. So we fought with our fist and took an a$$ whipping like a Man. Only when the Yanks and far Westerns LA gangs came here did we turn pu$$y.
But this just shows how far the MAs has felled at one time it was taught to the Armies and Marines as the last dicht effort to survive if at war. Now we are asking questions why practice SD in a MAs, sounds like why practice swimming in WATER to me.
Having lived through actual attacks multiples, muggings, mono mono beat downs by bigger and older guys, stick & knife attacks or even gun threats or in defense of others or because it was my job I know the benifit of SD in MAs. It is the confidence of knowing because you have trained to be there. The unknown factor is not as UNKNOWN, U sorta know what to expect and can adjust to the unexpected better. It was just training now obviously its some kind special training you need outside of skip kicking 4 times on leg or jumping back fisting and screaming. sigh.
I agree modern weapons should be trained at the highest level of MA, thats why its called MAs. The art of War.
What happen? Foam gloves???
Posted by: trevek
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/16/09 03:58 AM
Prizewriter, great story. I've known of football (soccer) players who didn't do MA doing the business in fights with soccer kicks, it was just what came natural.
The thing with both sports and dancing is that you also have to develop an awareness of who or what is in proximity to you (specially doing polkas in crowded farm barns) and perhaps react quickly.
I noticed after a while, when I stopped training MA regularly and also stopped dancing, that I had a less effective awareness of my personal space.
Posted by: Ilove2Hit
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/16/09 05:14 AM
my experience in rugby helped me a lot too.
through rugby i got very used t the idea of distance between people, balance and i didnt get shocked if i got hit or tackled to the ground on the street.
another thing, might sound weird, but rugby also helped me utilize a very powerful tool. the headbut. after 1-2 months of rugby it was one of my 1st used weapons if the sh1t kicked off. 1 headbut, fight was almost always over. probably because of playing rugby i got familiar with the distancing etc.
rugby has also a little animal effect. eg. some1 starts a fight with u and u just tackle him to the ground or pick him up and slam him down. people who observe this or even the one u tackle always feel like ur an animal... (i dont know if this is soo true, but many people told me so..)
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/16/09 06:29 AM
Great thread. Unfortunately, this topic doesn't seem to get a lot of attention.
You know, it's entirely possible that martial arts training can increase a person's likelihood of encountering violence. Where perhaps prior to training, a person would have made decisions to run, etc, some people after training choose to fight/engage.
Basically, martial arts training impresses the need for "hands on" solutions to violence. This is especially true within the MMA community where testosterone often outpaces IQ points.
The idea that people should use other means of defending themselves without going hands-on should be discussed within every training hall. But is it? How often have YOU guys heard that?
Posted by: Ilove2Hit
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/16/09 08:02 AM
i´ve heard that. at my place we always say. "if there is trouble, get your azz out of there as fast as you can. u never know what can happen and what the other guy is hiding in his back pocket. u might get yourself killed."
my coach once said to another kid "if u have no other choice then to fight. kick the other guys azz fast and get out of there. all it takes is 1-2 good punches, make him hit the ground and get out of there as fast as you can. dont stay there dont fight too long dont finish him off. take him down and get out of there. this is what it is about on the streets. being able to run/walk away and not being carried away."
this is actually what i´ve been taught since i was a kid. but okay. at least he is telling this to other kids.
u are right about what u said about the "
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti [Re: Ilove2Hit]
#16021499 - 01/16/09 06:29 AM
Reply Quote Quick Reply
Great thread. Unfortunately, this topic doesn't seem to get a lot of attention.
You know, it's entirely possible that martial arts training can increase a person's likelihood of encountering violence. Where perhaps prior to training, a person would have made decisions to run, etc, some people after training choose to fight/engage."
i never thought of it that way. but yeah. now that i think about it. i even know many friends of mine who, when they started attempting MAs, where more likely to join into a fight or to provoke it. they were way more aggressive since they thought they were superior.
great, enlightening thought JKogas..!
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/16/09 11:51 AM
I teach and talk about that all the time.
And I know before I learned the Marital art I was fighting all the time mostly because I didn't want to be punked or bullied. I'd fight to let them know they had to fight if they choosed me to approach. Whipped some a$$ and got my a$$ whipped a lot by bigger stronger guys and multiples.
As I stated many times I was cocherced into attacking my 1st MA instructor after he had just whipped Me and a older larger guy boxing. He could box we just thought we could.
He whipped my a$$ with his Karate me being 3 inches taller and about 40lbs heavier. I beg him to teach me years later after learning the Martial art All the older larger bullies or drunks knew better to attack me because I was more then game I could and would hurt them. I started training others for some reason word challenges, macho BS talk or swearing didn't excite or get me angry any more bc I knew if he got in range what I could and would do.
Of course my MAs lead to all my on the job training LEO, Security, Bouncer and Body Guard helped give me a duck back but this was reinforced by my MA training. That was back in the day.
Now I still teach to walk away rather then fight. Bc I know people don't take a$$ whipping anymore even when they deserve them they want to drive by or shoot pr knife you from the back. We also teach when shots are fired duck and roll then crawal to cover or barricade and difference.
I feel its still better to trained in how to handel these situation rather then have the DEER in headlight responce.
I teach and still believe that "A Warrior runs because he wants to, a Coward run because he has to".
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/16/09 01:49 PM
Neko
I appreciate what you are saying. Not too sure about all this Warrior stuff though. Coward or Warrior, if I can run, I will. Simple as that. I might "have to" because it is the only way to guarantee my safety. Can I live with that? I sure can.
I also appreciate that due to your occupation, you had cause to rely on skills taught in martial arts. Fair enough. Occupational Hazards for bodyguards, LEO etc... mean running isn't always an option, even if it presents itself. You might need to protect someone else or arrest someone rather than run, for example.
However, I don't think a person should automatically be ready to "kick some ass" when confronted with danger. Being "caught in the headlights" to me infers lack of awareness. I agree a person must be ready to respond to danger, but I don't think that response should automatically be to try and fight an attacker/s. If you can run, run. If you can talk your way out, cause a distration etc... then I would do it. If you can deter someone from the get go, I would look in to that too.
JKogas, I think you are right on the money. I think there is a real lack of critical, honest assessment in many martial arts classes. As people have just mentioned, they always get taught to "walk away". A lot of MA instructors in my experience say this, but they are just paying lip service to it. Many I have met don't talk about HOW TO WALK AWAY. They don't discuss startegy for escape, how to maintain awareness, how to de-escalate, or other things that might make a person better protected outside of what they are teaching. It doesn't take a person to be a Self Defense guru to do this. Just to what we are doing now. Talk about it honestly as you can with other people. Get input from other parties (e.g. police). Keep an open mind.
Screamingflea recently posted about avoiding conflict with a drunk who was getting a bit too close for comfort. She did this by awareness and moving in to space in order to put herself in a better position.
This is excellent stuff in my opinon. No flying back kicks, no Dim Mak touches of death, just great SD skills being put to use to end a situation peacefully.
I think it is hypocritical of a MA instructor to take 2 seconds to say "Just walk away" then spend 90 minutes telling people how to "kick ass" when confronted by someone.
MA shouldn't have a monopoly on effective self defense. If it is all a person is prepared to train in or study, then what options are they really leaving for themselves in a self defense situation? Is it really always a case of training for a worst case scenario, or is it ending up in a worst case scenario because of the way you train/study?
Posted by: Mike_Oliver
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/18/09 02:36 AM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how important a good diet and proper nutritional education are to self-defense. With heart disease being the number one killer of men AND women, nutrition should be top on our list of non-combative forms of self-defense. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease than a physical attack.
For children, accidental injury is the number one killer. Things like fire (smoke inhalation), drowning, falls, and car accidents. These things can also be prevented with solid education (for the kids and parents). 1 in 3 kids in the US will also be diagnosed with diabetes at some time in their life.
This is important stuff for martial artists to know--doubly so if you are a teacher.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/18/09 01:25 PM
Mike Oliver -
You're spot on. I consider this sort of thing all the time. You have people who say they are sincerely interested in self-defense drive immediately to McDonalds right after training, without wearing their seat-belts, talking on the cell phones, etc. These people should realize that self-defense can mean, "defense from self".
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/18/09 02:04 PM
Very good points guys. I remember a guy I use to work with. He was a 2nd dan in Ju Jitsu (it was Western Ju Jitsu, basically a mish-mash of stuff that the system owner called Ju Jitsu, similar to the WJJF).
The guy did some door work for a pub in Belfast from time to time. He would come in to work and chat to me about the situations he would get in to while on the door.
The thing was, the guy was terribly over weight. The guy had to climb 5 flights of stairs once after a fire drill as the lifts (elevators, if you will) were still out of action. I walked up with him. By the time we got to the the 5th floor, he was spent. I don't mean out of breath, I mean I thought he was going to fall over.
So the guy knew how to fight back against a mugger or a drunken attacker. But what quality of life was he protecting? Why worry about defending yourself against an attack if you are going to damage yourself more than any attacker ever could by the way you are living?
Posted by: trevek
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/18/09 02:57 PM
Agreed. I knew PT instructors in the army who'd scream at you for lack of fitness and then keep the brewing industry afloat at night.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/18/09 03:26 PM
Good insights, Prizewriter. I especially agree with the points about physical fitness and avoidance being critical to staying safe.
I am a bit less enthusiastic about dogs, mainly because they are a double edged sword. When Chicago's chief of animal control retired a few years ago after 40 years of service, he was asked how his job had changed over the course of his tenure. His response was telling. He said in the past 10-15 years, the number of serious dog bites in the city had increased dramatically because people were no longer using their dogs as watchdogs but as attack dogs. That is to say, people were buying more and more pit bulls, rottweilers, German shepards and other potentially dangerous breeds and and training them to attack instead of just bark. My own neighborhood is overrun with these hellhound breeds, whose owners may or may not be responsible.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/18/09 04:12 PM
Quote:
pit bulls, rottweilers, German shepards and other potentially dangerous breeds and and training them to attack instead of just bark.
Emphasizing that key point. None of those breeds are dangerous unless trained (or allowed) to be so.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/18/09 04:42 PM
Quote:
Good insights, Prizewriter. I especially agree with the points about physical fitness and avoidance being critical to staying safe.
I am a bit less enthusiastic about dogs, mainly because they are a double edged sword. When Chicago's chief of animal control retired a few years ago after 40 years of service, he was asked how his job had changed over the course of his tenure. His response was telling. He said in the past 10-15 years, the number of serious dog bites in the city had increased dramatically because people were no longer using their dogs as watchdogs but as attack dogs. That is to say, people were buying more and more pit bulls, rottweilers, German shepards and other potentially dangerous breeds and and training them to attack instead of just bark. My own neighborhood is overrun with these hellhound breeds, whose owners may or may not be responsible.
Same with guns, the responsibility falls on the owner.
Posted by: screamingflea
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/18/09 07:02 PM
Quote:
Quote:
pit bulls, rottweilers, German shepards and other potentially dangerous breeds and and training them to attack instead of just bark.
Emphasizing that key point. None of those breeds are dangerous unless trained (or allowed) to be so.
Speaking from the POV of someone who has trained disability service dogs, I've never really understood the practical application of training dogs to attack. Not that it wouldn't be useful in certain situations. But from my perspective on the pack mentality, "attack dog" is an oxymoron. To me, a dog that attacks (other than in a highly structured and supervised way like Schutzhund) simply isn't trained, or very poorly so.
An "attack dog" would therefore be even less helpful from a SD perspective than a gentle pet would. A dog with a violent nature is simply a loose cannon, no better than the attackers it's expected to fend off. The pet at least is predictable, and hopefully can be trained to "run home" on command and escape the confrontation.
And as for certain breeds singled out and trained for their badass SD appeal, German Shepherds are the original breed for guide dogs for the blind. I also know of some very successful service Rotties, Dobermans, and pits. As with humans, it all comes down to training and life experience.
Posted by: trevek
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 04:05 AM
If anyone has read the autobiography of Nosher Powell (hardman and stuntman)they'll remember the time he was working the doors of a club with a nasty dog, which didn't lik him. On one occassion he went to set it on some gangsters and it turned around and attacked him.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 04:28 AM
Even police have this problem on occasion with their highly trained dogs- if a dog has been set loose and got its target, the handler and any other police have to be very carefull around that animal when its 'blood is up', or else they will get bit like the criminal.
No matter what shape or size, dogs are dogs, and respond as such. Teach a pit bull love and maintain a benevolent dominance of your 'pack' so it knows its role, and you have a loving family pet.
Take a Pomeranian and nurture its aggression, avoid socialising it, and dominate it with fear, and there wont be an ankle that is safe within 20 yards of it.
The trouble is that, of course, the type of owner who wants an aggressive dog does not go for small breeds. They target Mastiffs, Bully breeds, doberman's, rotties etc.
i used to wrestle my friends Bull-mastiff. Her name was Cindy, she weighed 13 stone (180 lbs), and would, in the heat of battle, lick you to death with no mercy
The only dog that ever actually tried to bite me was a jack russell.
Owners and environment are the problem, not the breed.
Posted by: trevek
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 07:14 AM
Quote:
she weighed 13 stone (180 lbs), and would, in the heat of battle, lick you to death with no mercy
before or after she'd licked her bum?
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 08:07 AM
Considering Cord's history of spreading anal-borne germs, it shouldn't matter to him.
Posted by: screamingflea
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 10:51 AM
Quote:
Take a Pomeranian and nurture its aggression, avoid socialising it, and dominate it with fear, and there wont be an ankle that is safe within 20 yards of it.
I often quote this example when I hear of people calling for breed bans:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/2001/LA9212001pomeranian.pdf
LOS ANGELES (AP) - A small Pomeranian dog killed a 6- week-old baby while the infant's caretaker briefly left the child unattended to warm a bottle of milk, authorities said. The relative, who was caring for the infant girl, found her head buried in the dog's mouth Saturday night, sheriff's Deputy Cruz Solis said. The girl died of head trauma at an area hospital, he said.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 11:00 AM
Quote:
Considering Cord's history of spreading anal-borne germs, it shouldn't matter to him.
Its true, I am head chef at the air-biscuit bakery 
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 11:06 AM
There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.
My little dogs are excellent for home protection, simply because of avoidance. Most LEO's will tell you dogs are one of the best ways to keep your home from being broken into, simply because criminals follow the path of least resistance. A buddy who is an LEO installed my security system and was telling me how the had done stats on crime waves and you could see a clear pattern of which houses got hit and which ones got skipped, it was almost direct relation to who had dogs and who didn't.
I would like to see more regulation over dog ownership though. Require a certain level of training before tags are issued. Have people pay and have those funds go to help with the gross overbreeding and abandoned dogs the humane society has to deal with everyday. A good owner shouild be able to demonstrate to a professional they know how to care for and train an animal...it;s good for the people and great for the animals.
As far as SD, you don't half to train your dog to attack. If a dog senses danger they will be in the frey, trained or no most likely. Not always but you'd be surprised the level of the protection instinct most breeds have.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 11:12 AM
Quote:
I would like to see more regulation over dog ownership though. Require a certain level of training before tags are issued. Have people pay and have those funds go to help with the gross overbreeding and abandoned dogs the humane society has to deal with everyday. A good owner shouild be able to demonstrate to a professional they know how to care for and train an animal...it;s good for the people and great for the animals.
Here here! 
i would love those animal rights activists to divert attention away from medical testing, and get balaclava'd up and go cause problems to to all the a-holes who puppy farm, dogfight, and mistreat domestic pets.
Back on track, small dogs tend to be very vocal in territory disputes, so make a lot of noise to alert home owners of possible intrusion. This has the added benefit of always meeting the pizza guy at the door before he has rung the bell 
The Chinese use geese the same way. As 'intruder alarms' that is, not pizza delivery detectors
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 12:23 PM
Acually, BrianS, in some ways I feel more comfortable with widespread gun ownership than widespread ownership of potentially dangerous dogs. Preventing gun accidents is relatively easy--take the appropriate precaustions and the odds of tragedy fall to nearly nothing. However, a dog is a living thing. Even the best owner can lose control of their animal.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 12:26 PM
Quote:
Even the best owner can lose control of their gun senses temper.
Fixed that for you.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 12:57 PM
Not sure what "gun sense temper" means. But if you mean gun owners can lose their temper and shoot somebody, I agree. But I am not sure those folks are "good" gun owners. I remember a comedian once talking about waiting periods for purchasing handguns: "Anybody who needs a gun RIGHT NOW needs a waiting period."
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/19/09 06:48 PM
Quote:
However, a dog is a living thing. Even the best owner can lose control of their animal.
A well socialised dog, who is confident in its order in the pack (your family), simply will not attack anyone from its own volition- its not its place to do so, and will wait for signal from the alpha animal (you and yours). If you dont attack, then the dog interperates that you percieve no threat, and will trust your judgement.
Sure, if you hurt a dog, or startle/scare it to the point where it feels its safety is in danger, then yes it will protect itself. Same goes for taking its food, or giving it the impression that you are going to do so- though most owners can do this no problem, its not a wise move for a 'guest' or non-pack member to do this.
So, dont leap shouting at a well raised dog while it eats, and dont kick it up the ar$e and you will have no problems at all.
We are all mammals, and its amazing how our basic behavioural triggers are so similar- perhaps this commonality is part of why we make such good companions.
I notice that you persist in earmarking certain breeds as 'potentialy dangerous dogs', so its obvious that the rationale offered to you has fallen on deaf ears, but rest assured, every breed has an equal potential to be as docile or ferocious, as the owner makes it.
Posted by: iaibear
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/20/09 10:08 AM
<< I remember a comedian once talking about waiting periods for purchasing handguns: "Anybody who needs a gun RIGHT NOW needs a waiting period." >>
There were honest folks in Watts, CA a few years back who would not have thought that even mildly humorous.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 12:43 PM
Cord, I am sure everything you said about canine behavior is true. However, what worries me are the owners (and I have met many) who see no problem walking their pitbull without a leash, on the grounds that, "he's my BABY! He'd NEVER hurt anyone!" I have even seen dog owners who defend their animals AFTER they have mauled someone else's child: "My dog is well behaved--that boy must have provoked him!"
You clearly understand that dogs are animals; however, a surprising number of people in this country do not. To many dog-lovers, their pets are members of the family, honorary human beings. They treat them as harmless--if sometimes mischevious--children, and expect the rest of us to do the same. Sorry, but I'm not down with that.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 12:52 PM
Quote:
However, what worries me are the owners (and I have met many) who see no problem walking their pitbull without a leash, on the grounds that, "he's my BABY! He'd NEVER hurt anyone!"
File - ANY dog, not just pitbulls, can be "provoked" into aggressive behavior, especially if the owner is not paying attention. You seem to be purposely missing that point. Stop trying to put breeds into a box - it makes you look ignorant.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 01:48 PM
Quote:
Cord, I am sure everything you said about canine behavior is true.
No you're not, or else you would have dropped your breed specific fixation.
Quote:
However, what worries me are the owners (and I have met many) who see no problem walking their pitbull without a leash, on the grounds that, "he's my BABY! He'd NEVER hurt anyone!"
My wife and I cant have, nor do we want, children, so in many ways, we have anthropomorphised our dog into our 'daughter'. She gets spoiled rotten, I have some great conversations with her (like Ron Burgundy with Baxter), but i never lose sight of the basic behavioural needs of looking after a dog. Dont think that quirky = ignorance in dog owners.
Quote:
I have even seen dog owners who defend their animals AFTER they have mauled someone else's child: "My dog is well behaved--that boy must have provoked him!"
Dogs are part of human society- they are part of many families, and are encountered every day. A dog owners job is to socialise their dog to be familiar with children, even if they themselves do not have them.
It is also every parents duty to teach their children how to behave around dogs, even if they do not have one
Not doing so is like not getting your kids swimming lessons because you dont own a boat.
Quite often kids do provoke attack. As the (allegedly) more sentient beings in the equation, their is a responsibility on them not to act like idiots around animals.
I am not down with the concept that children are incapable of doing wrong.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 02:08 PM
Cord, I know full well that children make mistakes--and never suggested otherwise. However, dog owners often defend their animals as a matter of reflex, regardless of the animal's behavior or their own irresponsibility in controlling them.
I must admit, the great American dog fetish leaves me a bit mystified. Maybe this is because I grew up in a largely Muslim neighborhood in Chicago where dogs weren't that common. When I hear pet owners referred to as "pet parents," when I hear prospective dog owners talking about "adopting" an animal, when I take the Clark street bus past Fido's: The Bakery for Dogs (no joke!), my jaw drops.
No, dogs are NOT part of human society. HUMANS are part of human society. That is why we call it "human scoiety." If you regard your dog as your child, fine. But please don't demand I do the same, especially if you own some Rottweiller who could tear my throat out in under a minute. Few children can do that.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 02:29 PM
File -
Quote:
No, dogs are NOT part of human society. HUMANS are part of human society. That is why we call it "human scoiety."
Looks like you are wrong. This study shows that foxes can evolve into a domesticated state in the prescence of humans, inducing physical and behavioral changes:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scienc...end-482442.html
"They say: "We show that fox kits [cubs] from an experimental population selectively bred over 45 years to approach humans fearlessly and non-aggressively (experimentally domesticated) are not only as skilful as dog puppies in using human gestures but are also more skilled than fox kits from a second, control population not bred for tame behaviour."
The foxes in the study are the descendants of 100 vixens and 30 male foxes brought together in 1959 as a breeding colony on a Siberian research station in Novosibirsk. Dmitry Belyaev, a Russian geneticist, bred the foxes for tameness and lack of aggression to humans as part of a fur-farming project. Only those with the most gentle disposition were allowed to breed.
Mr Belyaev even identified a "domesticated elite" called Class IE, eager to establish human contact, which whimpered to attract attention and sniffed and licked the hands of the scientists. After many generations, and 45,000 foxes later, the scientists noted distinct differences between the selectively bred fox colony and their wild cousins. The foxes also looked different. Their coats developed white patches just like some dogs. Their muzzles became shorter and more puppy-like and in some, the ears became floppy and tails curly.
"Through genetic selection alone, our research group has created a population of tame foxes fundamentally different in temperament and behaviour from their wild forebears," Mr Trut said"
Quote:
If you regard your dog as your child, fine. But please don't demand I do the same, especially if you own some Rottweiller who could tear my throat out in under a minute. Few children can do that.
Cord is merely making the point that because dogs have become so integrated into human society, (non dog-owning) parents and people should take the basic steps necessary to be aware of the potential interaction problems that can exist. A similar line of reasoning that gun owners have preached for years.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activiti - 01/21/09 02:35 PM
Prizefighter wrote - I agree a person must be ready to respond to danger, but I don't think that response should automatically be to try and fight an attacker/s. If you can run, run. If you can talk your way out, cause a distration etc... then I would do it. If you can deter someone from the get go, I would look in to that too.
456 - Yes I agree try all the deterants, but when danger is immenient all the talking won't help you, your ways block so you can't run and if you wait any longer his re-enforcement will be there. Your only reaction is to ACT. Sometimes its just you and your skills do or die/get the hell beat out of ya! Or beat the hell out him. Such is life.
I think all rational methods should be used and always the best defense is not be there, but if you are what do you do?
The Warrior and Coward things is a state of mind, quite simply one is worried about if it is worth the effort, the others fears/worried about if he can produce any.
Jkogas right some MAs produces fasle confidence and a$$ kicking with that deer in the headlight look, the same as hell where is the Referee that ain't legal.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 02:50 PM
MattJ, what the article describes is the domestication of animals, not the conversion of animals into human beings. How are those things even remotely similar?
If domestication makes dogs into human beings, then we must also extend membership in the human race to cows, goats, horses, sheep, pigs, cats, rabbits, chincillas, hamsters, gerbils, rats, mice, goldfish--you get the idea.
I agree children shouldn be trained to behave approprately around animals. My problem is with dog owners who so anthropomorphize their pets that they cease to treat them like dogs. How can anyone not see that as a problem? Talk to the late Timothy "Grizzly Man" Treadwell and see what he says.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 03:36 PM
Quote:
MattJ, what the article describes is the domestication of animals, not the conversion of animals into human beings. How are those things even remotely similar?
Oh yeah, that's exactly what I meant, sorry. 
My point was that dogs are an assimilated part of human culture. Their society and ours have been intertwined to a high degree for thousands of years now. But I assume you're being dense about this for some reason.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 03:49 PM
Fileboy, you are trolling this particular tiny element of this thread. If you choose to read a balanced perspective its there for you, if you choose to see certain breeds as 'dangerous' then that is your ignorance- like you said, you didnt grow up around dogs, so you are speaking of things you dont fully understand. It shows.
Now, on with the thread about more useful forms of self defence than MA.
I offer: 1st aid courses. Learning to be a strong swimmer. Some academic study of anthropology and human social behaviour.
Posted by: screamingflea
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 04:16 PM
I would further offer: Mediation and de-escalation techniques. Valuable not only for your average pissing-match, but also in situations where mental illness is involved.
(Lately I've been working very hard to line up such training for one of the groups I'm active in. I'm not sure why, but it's been a tall order!)
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 04:21 PM
I'm starting to warm to the idea of having a fox about the place. How would it cope against a mugger I wonder....
Neko, that guy has got to be massive to be blocking all the exits. I won't have to hit him, his heart attack is imminent. J/K!
In all seriousness though, what if I get into a brawl with the guy, then his reinforcements show up because I can't end it quickly? I don't want to go down the road of pitching scenarios, we could do that to the cows come home, and it would all be theory anyway. Suffice to say I am still not convinced martial arts should be the main thrust of a persons training for SD if that is what they want to learn.
Some decent ideas in there Cord, especially about First Aid. Everyone wants to learn how to harm, are there so many ready to learn how to heal (how corny does that sound!?)
Just pitching here, but an often underrarted thing is the art of forgiveness/letting it go. Be it a pre conflict jibe or the aftermath of someone trying to attack you, there is a lot to be said for learning to let things go. This can help you avoid a physical situation, or, if attacked, can help your recovery. Even "hard men" like Geoff Thompson are fans of this approach.
Also, being more aware of other people in "your group". I would love to say everyone is mindful of their own protection, but they aren't. If someone in your family or friends are going out at night for example , make sure they get home ok (without trying to mother them of course).
If you are not with them, ask them what time they should be home, how are they getting home, do they have a phone with them, do they need a lift etc....
I think it was MattJ who put up a thread once about using codewords in a group of friends. It was something like "I think I see your uncle at the lamp post" meaning "That guy leaning against the lamp post looks a little dodgy". I think good communication within a group would be on alternative list too. In fact, communication skills in general.
I was watching a programme about bodyguards for the rich and famous. One guy who had been in the game for over 30 years said the most important thing was if you didn't know the area, you should get a look at the area you were going to ahead of time.
I am not suggesting you go everywhere before hand, but I think there is a lot to be said for going to places you are familiar with or going with someone else who is familiar with the area. Not always possible, but even if you could look at a map before hand etc...
So I suppose good orienteering/directional skills would be helpful too!!!!
Posted by: trevek
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 04:29 PM
So, from what I can make out... a good SD technique is to walk around with a dog. When the mugger jumps out suggest the dog is trained to kill... this will start the mugger on a discussion and debate about whether foxes eat babies and turn into people (in Japanese mythology foxes can shape-shift, as can racoons). The potential victim then suggests a good book to read (or Ghibli anime to watch) and everyone goes home contented.
Violence averted.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 04:50 PM
Well, call it "trolling" if you like. The original point about dog ownership was the one that did not strike me as self-evident, so that was the one I chose to elaborate on. Call me crazy, but I think teasing out disagreements is far more enlightening and condicive to criticial thought than just saying, "good point" or "oh, I agree!"
In any case, I am surprised how much vitriol this raised. You'd think I told a pregnant woman i hated children.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 05:11 PM
Quote:
Well, call it "trolling" if you like. The original point about dog ownership was the one that did not strike me as self-evident, so that was the one I chose to elaborate on. Call me crazy, but I think teasing out disagreements is far more enlightening and condicive to criticial thought than just saying, "good point" or "oh, I agree!"
In any case, I am surprised how much vitriol this raised. You'd think I told a pregnant woman i hated children.
Do you have anything to say regarding the topic of the actual thread?
Posted by: screamingflea
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 05:20 PM
Y'all are
weird. Seriously.
Quote:
So, from what I can make out... a good SD technique is to walk around with a dog. When the mugger jumps out suggest the dog is trained to kill... this will start the mugger on a discussion and debate about whether foxes eat babies and turn into people (in Japanese mythology foxes can shape-shift, as can racoons). The potential victim then suggests a good book to read (or Ghibli anime to watch) and everyone goes home contented.
Violence averted.
It's a little weird for me to be reading about "SD" in the context of fighting and violence. I've been on a "service dog" list for a few years and my mind hasn't quite made the transition from one acronym to the other.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/21/09 05:35 PM
Prizefighter wrote - Neko, that guy has got to be massive to be blocking all the exits. I won't have to hit him, his heart attack is imminent. J/K!
456 - It just depends on where you are and where you grew up. From my experience a guy don't have to be massive to block the bathroom door you just entered or to back you into a corner or the catch you between the door as you just stand up out of your car. You are right we can go on forever but I'm just talking and looking at what I've been through obviously our realites are different but our main goals are the same don't fight unless you have to and run IF YOU CAN. I'm just saying at a a certain point talking does no good, you have to take advantage when you can. Let him worry about was that a fair fight.
As for his boys showing up do you think they will think twice to help if he is kicking your a$$ or if you it looks like you almost killed him. Some boys will take there boy and haul him off its easy to be apart of mob brutality if its winning, even in the wildest part of nature wild dogs will attack a Lion if he is losing and wounded very few will attack if he has many torn apart under his claws and some in his mouth.
We are basic animals with a higher purpose but sometimes we act and reason like animals predator or prey!!
But run if you can or make an opening.
I agree a protection dog will help I had 3 now only 2 but you must be accountable for their damages and have complete control. For if they kill the attacker because you couldn't call them off you all will pay. The dog with their lives and you with long jail time. I train to call them off at a command this starts with calling them out of their food bowl to a sit, try that with a full grown Male Rottiweiler. You beter start when he is young if you don't want to be a dog mauling statistic.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/22/09 12:34 PM
Cord, the topic of dog ownership was raised in the original thread. Sorry if my opinion doesn't concur with yours, but you are wrong to say I am off-topic. The only other thing I would add: ARF! ARFARFARF! ARF!
I hope I have made myself clear.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/22/09 03:23 PM
Quote:
Cord, the topic of dog ownership was raised in the original thread.
As a trained form of deterrent/protection, not as a platform for you to vomit ignorant prejudice against certain breeds.
Quote:
Sorry if my opinion doesn't concur with yours, but you are wrong to say I am off-topic.
and you are wrong to say your opinion doesnt concur with mine arent you?
Quote:
Cord, I am sure everything you said about canine behavior is true
Quote:
The only other thing I would add: ARF! ARFARFARF! ARF!
The trolling stops here, or somebody gets flood control, and it wont be me. Clear?
Posted by: Ames
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/22/09 04:04 PM
To be honest fileboy, I think you are looking at this in a fairly onesided way. Cord's point is that dogs should be socialised to deal with kids, and that kids should be socialised to deal with dogs in a proper way. My mother used to babysit kids, and you won't believe some of the things they would do to my dog. It's a laugh when you tell these peoples parents that thier kid just shoved a toy into the dogs butt, but all of sudden very serious when they hear that after a week of this, the dog snapped at the kid. I would too.
And Cord's comment about dog's being members of society is also pretty accurate. For a very long time we had a symbiotic relationship.
And yes, I think you have gone off topic. This isn't a 'What good are dog's?' thread. This is an alternative methods to self defence thread.
Let's try to get it back on topic.
My alternative method? My dazzling smile.
--Chris
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/23/09 01:53 PM
My "prejudice" is backed up by hard data and shared by a large number of governments, public health agencies, and courts of law. To cite just one example, a study by the US Center for Disease Control found that between 1979 and 1998, a full one-third (33%) of all fatal dogs bites in the US were caused by pit bulls. The breed has proven so dangerous it has veen been banned in the UK--hardly a bastion of dog-haters!
As far as dogs being part of human society, I think our disagreement is definitional. I define human society as being made up of human beings; others might define membership more broadly. But my earlier objection stands: if you are going to extend honorary membership in the human race to dogs, how can you deny it to the miriad of other animals that humans have domesticated over the ages? Or do only cute, furry animals qualify?
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/23/09 02:22 PM
1. Please show me where I said dogs were human? i said they were an integral part of human society- like cars, and tax, and soap opera's- I didnt say they were part of
humanity big difference.
2. Statistics eh? Brilliant
Did you know that in the 80's in Britain, there were more red cars involved in accidents than any other colour?
Did that mean that red cars were more dangerous than any other kind,
or that red was the most popular and prevalent colour of car on the road?Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, Bull breeds, Doberman's. All dogs. All variations on the same genetic theme, and all having the same behavioural instincts.
Why the reputation then you ask?
Well, because they attract ownership by certain elements of society that covet their potential when their aggression is nurtured
artificialy through training.
In an alternate universe, where thugs, local 'tough guys' and dog fight trainers favoured the springer spaniel, and old ladies carried HUGE handbags that accomodated pit-bulls and rottweilers; you would be talking garbage on here about the dangers of 'evil spaniels'
The government in Britain is a puppett of the tabloid press, who ran a huge panic campaign about 'devil-dogs' years ago, and sure enough, the govt. knee jerked and banned the american pit-bull.
The other thing is that when a small dog displays 'devil-dog' behaviour, and goes for someone's ankle, they are much less likley to report it, whereas a large dog will do more damage, and cause injury more likely to need hospital attention. This is another way that your precious statistics end up being useless.
Take a pit-bull as a puppy. Socialise it with all varieties of life. Love it, care for it, inforce its order in the pack of your family, and you have a good, well behaved pet dog.
Take a spaniel, treat it like sh1t, beat it, shut it off from the world behind a fence and encourage it to defend its territory with no provocation, and you have every postmans nightmare.
The variable is
NOT the breed. The variable is the owners actions.
You will be happy that I have 'bitten' (pun intended), but sad that you have earned flood control- still off topic, and you were warned. Think on this for the next 10 minutes
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/26/09 05:56 PM
You said dogs were part of human society, which I interpreted to mean they were at least honorary human beings. If they are not at least that, then I am not sure what being "part of human society" entails.
As far as pit bulls and other potentially dangerous breeeds appealing to those less likely to be responsible owners, I am sure you are correct. Nearly all dog of this type in my own neighborhood seems to belong to young, thuggish males--part of their tough guy persona.
I have to take issue with your cavalier dismissal of statistics. Yes, statistics can be used to manufacture information. Howeever, statistics can also be an invaluable tool to get an accurate picture of things beyond our power to percieve directly. And deciding what statistical info might be valid vs. invalid is not all that difficult.
The claim that driving a red car makes one more accident prone is clearly nonsense because the color of a car has zero to do with why accidents happen. However, the fact pit-bulls were disproportionately involved in fatal attacks makes sense--the dogs are both physically able and tempermentally predisposed to attack. The were, after all originally bred as fighting dogs.
Now, if I had quoted a statistic claiming pomeranians were the most vicious people-biters out there, then you would some ground to roll your eyes.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Screw you MA! Alternative Sel Defense Activities. - 01/26/09 06:28 PM
Quote:
You said dogs were part of human society, which I interpreted to mean they were at least honorary human beings. If they are not at least that, then I am not sure what being "part of human society" entails.
Explained and defined in last post. Also clearly stated throughout previous posts. Comprehension for the win.
Quote:
As far as pit bulls and other potentially dangerous breeeds appealing to those less likely to be responsible owners, I am sure you are correct. Nearly all dog of this type in my own neighborhood seems to belong to young, thuggish males--part of their tough guy persona.
You keep saying you agree with me, yet insist that I am wrong.
Quote:
I have to take issue with your cavalier dismissal of statistics. Yes, statistics can be used to manufacture information. Howeever, statistics can also be an invaluable tool to get an accurate picture of things beyond our power to percieve directly. And deciding what statistical info might be valid vs. invalid is not all that difficult.
Stastically, you have a 50/50 chance of spotting inaccurate statistics.
Quote:
The claim that driving a red car makes one more accident prone is clearly nonsense because the color of a car has zero to do with why accidents happen.
And the breed of dog has zero to do with why dog attacks happen.
Quote:
However, the fact pit-bulls were disproportionately involved in fatal attacks makes sense--the dogs are both physically able and tempermentally predisposed to attack. The were, after all originally bred as fighting dogs.
Rottweillers are sheep dogs. German Shepherds.
Does this mean that a Pyranean Mountain dog is incapable of hurting a human because it has been bred to act in search and rescue?
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Now, if I had quoted a statistic claiming pomeranians were the most vicious people-biters out there, then you would some ground to roll your eyes.
They rely on the exact same behavioural triggers, instincts and canine social laws as the pit bull, so, its no more, or less ridiculous than your statements about any other breed.
Do you own a dog? You already said you dodnt grow up around them. How can you understand something you have no experience of?
Dont answer that, the thread has quitened anyway, so its getting locked.