Purpose of Kata in street situations

Posted by: Meibukan003

Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/26/08 04:55 PM

I was just wondering on what other people think about the purpose of katas / patterns in street situations.

Obviously an attacker on the street isn't going to attack and defend in a sequence like any kata, so my thoughts are that kata teaches you to manage your energy for ANY move you want to execute. So some of the details of kata are important, like keeping a tight fist, balance, speed and using the whole body for power, but not the specific sequence of the pattern. Some of these details are mechanical details (Tight fist, etc) but overall, is energy management not the final outcome?

Many people ask me this question, and I feel that my opinion above is a reasonable answer. I guess to sum it up, kata is used to learn to manage the energy of the body, mind and spirit and efficiently channel it into an opponent or to defend an attack from the opponent.

What do you think? Did I miss any points?

Posted by: trevek

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/26/08 05:31 PM

I'd say that kata is a training tool which is to teach your body posture, tension etc (as you say) and a possible combination of moves.

However, it is a form of extreme body posture training which (hopefully) allows your body to carry out moves in a real situation effectively in a reduced posture (does that make sense?).

In other words, nobody is going to go into the extreme positions used in a kata, but the body should be able to understand how to move in and out of a position quicker and more effectively.

Heck, I think I know what I mean.
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/26/08 07:31 PM

Kata are nothing more than a catalog of techniques. They are taught not only to teach their students the various techniques of their respective martial art, but to pass down the martial art to the next possible successor.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/26/08 08:16 PM

Ok folks, this is only my opinion and I've said it before; kata wastes valuable training time. If self-defense is something you are legitimately interested in, you'll do a lot better to find an alive gym and train boxing, wrestling and jits. I mean, unless you have unlimited time and just enjoy kata, it's not helping you in a self-defense situation vs anyone that isn't a corpse.

I know people will disagree and that's fine. You have every right. But this has to be mentioned. People should be exposed to the critical voice.



-John
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 03:11 AM

Katas are just to practice technical aspects of the art, so that you have good form & such.

Many of these small technical things can be overlooked very quickly if you found yourself in a fight.

Katas/forms are there for you to perfect the techniques as they are. Not against an opponent or anything like such. Yes combinations can be practiced but you're still lacking a person to use those cominbations on. Its practice for yourself so that your form is proper & your breathing/body develops in a certain way.

Outside of creating a solid foundation of techniques & a healthy body (which help in the street) Katas won't offer you too much help with the reality of the street. If you practice solo techniques then you will be able to do the techniques by YOURSELF well. If you spar more then your fighting ability will be better.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 03:19 AM

Quote:

I was just wondering on what other people think about the purpose of katas / patterns in street situations.




I prefer to do kata in the yard or dojo. Too many vehicles in the street that may interrupt your kata training.

Quote:

Obviously an attacker on the street isn't going to attack and defend in a sequence like any kata, so my thoughts are that kata teaches you to manage your energy for ANY move you want to execute. So some of the details of kata are important, like keeping a tight fist, balance, speed and using the whole body for power, but not the specific sequence of the pattern. Some of these details are mechanical details (Tight fist, etc) but overall, is energy management not the final outcome?




We have gone over this many times here. You can look back on the kata threads of the past and see many opinions on it. Not to say it isn't still open for discussion,but not alot of folks around here discussing it anymore.

Quote:

Many people ask me this question, and I feel that my opinion above is a reasonable answer. I guess to sum it up, kata is used to learn to manage the energy of the body, mind and spirit and efficiently channel it into an opponent or to defend an attack from the opponent.

What do you think? Did I miss any points?






Yep, alot of points, and I'll try to sum up my feelings on kata and self defense.

Kata's movements should be learned precisely at first. Then a breakdown of self defense techniques can be found throughout the entire kata from beginning to end. From there you can use the techniques against specific and non-specific attacks. Use minimal resistance at first then transition to more resistance as you progress.
Here is some more fun facts about kata:
1. Kata teaches you how to use your own body.
2. Stances are transitional. "At first, practice stances with utmost seriousness, then rely on your own posture." (Funokoshi, I believe)
3. Blocks are locks, throws, dislocations, and strikes. Uke means "receive" ,not block. Block is a sucky americanized translation of "uke".
4. Kata is not a dance type self defense scenario against multiple opponents, that's just another sucky translation imo.

So there you have it. Your line of thinking about kata was flawed from the get-go imo. Go back and apply these rules and go from there.

Just my opinion brother!

AND,as John pointed out, you don't need kata for self defense. But, if you prefer kata training like I do you need to follow these guidelines, just a taste though.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 08:33 AM

<< Kata's movements should be learned precisely at first. Then a breakdown of self defense techniques can be found throughout the entire kata from beginning to end. From there you can use the techniques against specific and non-specific attacks. >>

My opinion, too.

If the kata are firmly in "motor memory" they will snap to without thinking (mushin) when needed.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 09:02 AM

Quote:

Ok folks, this is only my opinion and I've said it before; kata wastes valuable training time. If self-defense is something you are legitimately interested in, you'll do a lot better to find an alive gym and train boxing, wrestling and jits. I mean, unless you have unlimited time and just enjoy kata, it's not helping you in a self-defense situation vs anyone that isn't a corpse.

I know people will disagree and that's fine. You have every right. But this has to be mentioned. People should be exposed to the critical voice.



-John




We have a winner.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 01:30 PM

So, would this opinion of 'kata' also hold for 'waza'?
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 01:36 PM

I think that would depend on the waza. Per kata, everyone is saying it is rote physical movement and doesn't share one critical aspect with sparring, and that is the attempt at applying techniques on an opponent not wanting you to apply them. Though there are vastly different levels of sparring.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 01:48 PM

I thought 'rote physical movement' was actually a desirable thing?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 02:06 PM

Quote:

I thought 'rote physical movement' was actually a desirable thing?




It can be. But rote practice without ever trying those moves in a dymnamic environment will hinder functional application.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 02:45 PM

Quote:

I thought 'rote physical movement' was actually a desirable thing?




IMNSHO It is. When a familiar attack registers on your subconscious, the appropriate part of your own "rote physical movement" cuts in automatically. No making a decision on what to do. No thinking at all, mushin. No wasted time before responding.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 03:00 PM

Harlan,

If efficacy in martial arts, use of MA techniques, is what you are after, then the only measurement of them is in contention with someone else. In other words, good application of technique.

And where kata falters (and yes, people say that this is just one of the tools that you use to gain application) is that its very nature doesn't allow this use in application. Some give it a primer status. The problem is that often, more than often...application seems different than the primer which begs use of it as a learning aid, for me.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 03:01 PM

Kata, patterns, forms or whatever you want to call it; without resistance training they are worthless. They can be tools use to supplement things but without real resistance training then you might as well be taking dance classes. AND if you are talking self defense training, they should NOT be even as supplement. Self defense should be all resistance training. If you plan use skills to fight or defend then katas and such have no business in your program. MMA fighters, military, police, etc. ... no kata. Why? A waste of time!
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 03:04 PM

While agreeing with most of the elements you mentioned, I found it odd you said "tight fist" twice. Surely you want it tight at the moment of impact, but to keep it tight otherwise sacrifices speed and energy.

To me, kata's main benefit is in practicing techniques I wouldn't DARE apply in kumite.
Posted by: Meibukan003

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 04:39 PM

Quote:

While agreeing with most of the elements you mentioned, I found it odd you said "tight fist" twice. Surely you want it tight at the moment of impact, but to keep it tight otherwise sacrifices speed and energy.

To me, kata's main benefit is in practicing techniques I wouldn't DARE apply in kumite.




I was just using it as a technical example. The responses are very interesting though, thanks for the input!

I shall search some more...

Posted by: medulanet

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 05:20 PM

Quote:

MMA fighters, military, police, etc. ... no kata.




Not true in all cases.

http://vodpod.com/watch/59231-japan-police-shotokan-karate
Posted by: cxt

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 05:32 PM

Dereck

"no kata"

Well that kinda depends on what and how you define a "kata"

Speaking of police and the military---anybody shooting back at them when they are on the range?
Or could it be accuratly said that in martial terms there is little to no "resistance" when practing shooting?
I used to shoot on a rifle team---nobody was shooting at me during practice......maybe I was doing it wrong?

"A waste of time"

Not if your doing it correctly----which is good advice for pretty much aby form of training......ya got to be doing it correctly for it to work.

GENERAL STATEMENT--the following is NOT directed to or at anyone in particular.

Tell you one thing though....I'm getting really sick and tired of people bitching, moaning and whining about kata.

People shouldn't do training that does not show gains----if it does not show gains for somebody then they should not do it....pretty much period......just quite bitching, moaning and whining about it.

If someone is making you do it---then quit.

If someone is making you do it and you find the training othewise valuable---suck it up and do what they ask.

I really don't care....just soooooooo sick and tired of people getting on-line to bellyache about it.

People need to grow up and take some responsibility for themselves and their training.

My high school wrestling coach made me learn some stuff that really was not all that effective on the mat OR "real"-------I could either have either spent time bellyaching or I could spend time training better....which one you is going to improve my skills---the bellyaching and moaning or training better??????
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 05:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

MMA fighters, military, police, etc. ... no kata.




Not true in all cases.

http://vodpod.com/watch/59231-japan-police-shotokan-karate




Bad example. There are following a traditional system so would of course have kata in it. If self defense is what they are truly looking for then all of the other stuff would be cut out to make room for more training with resistance. This just shows me that they are doing no more then what the average person can learn by going to a school.

Perhaps show me the Marines doing kata on the beach as a group.
Posted by: brocksampson

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 05:53 PM

Quote:

Kata, patterns, forms or whatever you want to call it; without resistance training they are worthless.




Agreed. And most people never train their kata in this way.

Quote:

Self defense should be all resistance training. If you plan use skills to fight or defend then katas and such have no business in your program.




This seems a little closed minded IMO. I actually find a great deal of value in breaking apart kata and working the pieces against a partner.

Quote:

MMA fighters, military, police, etc. ... no kata. Why? A waste of time!




Apples and Oranges. Cage fighting, and military and L.E. combatives are not really the same thing. Nor do they have the long tradition of many MA schools. That's not a bad thing it's just a question of what path you take and how much time you invest. Also, the end goals are a little different.

I don't believe that kata can give you everything you need to effectively defend yourself. But I am a firm beliver that, when trained correctly, they offer a lot of guidance on the matter. You have to dig. There's A LOT of research, time and effort that is required to get the most out of kata. But that's true of any serious no nonsense self defense program. It's just difficult to find people who train their kata this way, AND have a realistic view of self defense. It's easy to get carried away in the study and forget that it's (almost)always the basics that save your butt in the end.

When it's all said and done, you have to ask yourself, "Can I count on this to work or am I fooling myself and my training partners?" If you're not sure, hit the mat and find out. Just don't forget there are always differences in training and "real".
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 05:53 PM

Quote:

Speaking of police and the military---anybody shooting back at them when they are on the range?
Or could it be accuratly said that in martial terms there is little to no "resistance" when practing shooting?




Very poor example. If I take a gun and shoot it I know that it is going to kill or seriously hurt somebody and in fact could hurt myself using it. Taking a gun and practicing shooting it at a range to become more proficient is one thing however it cannot be compared to a kata; that is like apples and cloths pins; don't even share being a fruit.

Gun you know can do damage; kata you have no clue if it will work because no resistance. I shoot at a target and it shows me the bullet hole. I punch and kick the air; was it useful? Air not damaged. No resistance so don't know if it would work for real. With a gun if I shoot at a range or shoot at a person; pretty much has the same feeling less the emotion and adrenalin. Performing a kata in the air has a way different feeling then using those skills to defend yourself.

And even after your "not directed rant"; still think kata has no place in a self defense system. If you want to take a traditional art then expect this as part of the training. If you are learning to fight it should be nonexistent.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 06:04 PM

Let us understand that if I'm becoming a military person, a police officer or a MMA fighter, or anything of this nature, then kata has no place in the training and is a complete waste of time.

If I am in a traditional system of martial arts I expect it and there can be techniques found within them that allows me to train at alone. BUT they can only be a small supplement to what you should be training; resistance. The same goes for punching and kicking wave masters, punching bags, focus mitts, etc. These are training tools but until you are face to face with a person whether in training or in competition, the feeling of being hit or defending yourself cannot be experienced. These are better methods of preparing yourself for any "real" encounter so that you learn not only to usefully apply techniques but also to mentally prepare yourself for dealing with somebody in your face.

As many of us have already found out, many things taught don't fit into our scope of fighting. What works for somebody else may not work for ourselves and why you see different styles of fighters in MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc. We each need to find our uniqueness of fighting and by learning a set pattern for training on our own, even being able to pick things out of it that are useful, they really are not usefully unless you can actually apply them under pressure. The only way to deal pressure/resistance is to apply pressure/resistance. The more you do this the more you mentally can become prepared, find "your" fighting style and get those moments of clarity that you go ... I get it ... and then can use it. Kata that WILL NOT happen because it is a set pattern that you are doing yourself that everybody else is also doing; it is not unique to you.

Again in a tradition system expect this and take as much as you can from it BUT don't for once think that this will teach you how to defend yourself or win a fight.
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 06:44 PM

I don't think people will argue that learning a Kata will make you a fighter. Thats not the point. Katas are for you to practice technique, which people do ALL the time whether its against a resisting opponent or not. If you're hitting a pad/wave master/bag you're still practicing technique.

For you to fire a gun effectively then you need to practice (obviously not against live targets). Theres technique to shooting a gun. Yes a bullet will hurt/kill but if that bullet can't reach its target...then well there is no damage. And then theres the people that hurt themselves from firing because they don't know how to hold & support the gun. So going to the gun range helps you perfect your techniques so that when it comes time you will make your bullet count.

Kata/empty hitting is the same. You need to practice your technique somewhere so that when you do spar & eventually fight you will have mastered the mechanics of your body. Does that mean in a fight you will perform the prescribed motions of a kata? well I hope not if you have a brain. The kata is there to practice & perfect your technique and also develop certain strengths.

Boxers/Kickboxers shadow box, is that also wrong because they are punching air?
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 07:52 PM

IExcalibui2

Everyone uses the shadow boxing analogy, which I don't think is entirely accurate. For one thing, shadow boxing isn't something I'm going to do for long periods of time. Secondly, shadow boxing doesn't limit itself to some predetermined pattern of either movement or strikes. It's free-form. That alone is a big difference.

My opinion is that there are other methods superior to kata. Shadow boxing being but ONE of them.


-John
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 08:04 PM

Quote:

IExcalibui2

Everyone uses the shadow boxing analogy, which I don't think is entirely accurate. For one thing, shadow boxing isn't something I'm going to do for long periods of time. Secondly, shadow boxing doesn't limit itself to some predetermined pattern of either movement or strikes. It's free-form. That alone is a big difference.

My opinion is that there are other methods superior to kata. Shadow boxing being but ONE of them.


-John




predetermined movements can also be called combinations?

I'm just saying Kata is just to practice techniques as it is. Not for fighting. If you break down the forms & apply certain techniques & movements then yes you might have found yourself 1 application. However, this still doesnt mean you can fight.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/27/08 09:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

MMA fighters, military, police, etc. ... no kata.




Not true in all cases.

http://vodpod.com/watch/59231-japan-police-shotokan-karate




Bad example. There are following a traditional system so would of course have kata in it. If self defense is what they are truly looking for then all of the other stuff would be cut out to make room for more training with resistance. This just shows me that they are doing no more then what the average person can learn by going to a school.

Perhaps show me the Marines doing kata on the beach as a group.




Its a bad example why, because it contradicts your post? You made a statement that certain groups of people don't practice kata. Your statement was inaccurate. So now is it the Marines specifically who don't practice kata? I could make a case for a person NOT training like an MMA fighter if self defense was truly what they were after. The only thing that matters is if you can make what you train work when you need it. If an MMA fighter or Marine gets knocked out in a street fight does that mean that they should start doing kata? No. If you training does not rely on hope but on knowing what you can and cannot do because you have practiced it against someone who is fully resisting, then your headed in the right direction, kata or no kata. Self defense is as much mental as it is physical. If kata can prepare you physically or otherwise to deal with a life or death encounter then you are spending your training time productively. If it cannot then you are wasting your time.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 03:55 AM

The question is what do you mean by 'kata'. In Judo the practice of a throw can be referred to as kata.

I once interviewed a Freestyle Karate Champion and he dismissed traditional kata, saying it was of no use to him... whereas shadow boxing was. He referred to it as 'freeform' kata, not pre-arranged.

In the military we might consider things like bayonet drill, skill-at-arms, even parade drill a form of kata but it is something which is necessary to drill in so that it becomes second nature and not thought about.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 05:19 AM

Quote:

Let us understand that if I'm becoming a military person, a police officer or a MMA fighter, or anything of this nature, then kata has no place in the training and is a complete waste of time.




MMA fighter, yes,but the others I'd have to disagree on.
I wouldn't be so presumptious to call kata a waste of time until you have spent time training kata properly. Chances are, you won't find proper kata training in any TKD halls.

I see alot of new mma fighters with very poor striking techniques. Sure, a hard punch will ko someone and you can get lucky, especially if your timing and distance is down,but striking technique is lacking in mma imo. That's really a different thread though.



Quote:

If I am in a traditional system of martial arts I expect it and there can be techniques found within them that allows me to train at alone. BUT they can only be a small supplement to what you should be training; resistance.




Who is anyone to tell another what they "should" be training? Kata CAN be trained as a viable self defense system. People think of kata training as "doing" your forms over and over by yourself to perfect technique. There is much more to "kata training" than merely this.


Quote:

The same goes for punching and kicking wave masters, punching bags, focus mitts, etc. These are training tools but until you are face to face with a person whether in training or in competition, the feeling of being hit or defending yourself cannot be experienced. These are better methods of preparing yourself for any "real" encounter so that you learn not only to usefully apply techniques but also to mentally prepare yourself for dealing with somebody in your face.




The above reference IS a part of kata training. People seem to miss this point.

Quote:

As many of us have already found out, many things taught don't fit into our scope of fighting. What works for somebody else may not work for ourselves and why you see different styles of fighters in MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc. We each need to find our uniqueness of fighting and by learning a set pattern for training on our own, even being able to pick things out of it that are useful, they really are not usefully unless you can actually apply them under pressure. The only way to deal pressure/resistance is to apply pressure/resistance.




^^^Part of kata training^^^

Quote:

The more you do this the more you mentally can become prepared, find "your" fighting style and get those moments of clarity that you go ... I get it ... and then can use it. Kata that WILL NOT happen because it is a set pattern that you are doing yourself that everybody else is also doing; it is not unique to you.




Again, your presumption of what a kata is and does and how it is trained is flawed. I haven't seen a kata that was not unique to the individual myself!

As I said earlier in my first reply. Kata teaches you proper body mechanics so than you can use it efficiently......against resistance.

Quote:

Again in a tradition system expect this and take as much as you can from it BUT don't for once think that this will teach you how to defend yourself or win a fight.




Kata training can indeed prepare you for a fight. (not the mere "doing" of kata). Ever read the article about the guy that "used" a technique from tensho? I believe it's titled "How a technique from tensho saved my life." But, he wasn't a title holding mma fighter,so I'm sure he sucked and was just wasting his time.

BTW, Noone wins a fight. One can hope to overcome or survive,but winning shouldn't be on their mind.

cxt, I echo your post! Do kata or don't people!!



BTW, If a person's only concern is self defense then throw away 90% of any art aspect of any system. Get the most effective weapons availiable to you and spend time learning how to use them effectively.

When someone attacks another person they are not hoping they are not a good mma fighter, they are hoping they are not armed.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 12:23 PM

Derrek

"very poor example"

Not at all....just pointing out that the most deadly thing you can have for "street" situations---a heck of a lot more deadly than ANYBODIES "empty hand fighting" has no "resistance" training at all......not in how the term is usually used.

Besides, I always get bent out of shape on people talking about "streetfighting"---if you REALLY need to protect yourself against violent--generally armed assault---then you better be getting a concealed carry permit and practice with you legal firearm regularly.
Anything short of that is just wasting time---my "empty hand skills" are just in case I don't have a weapon or can't get to something I can use as a weapon.
Most folks just kinda want to "play act" about this issue----people are either serious about their self defense of they are not----and ANY serious discussion of actual self defense invloves weapons----often firearms.

"kata have no clue if it will work because there is no resistence"

Wow I guess then all those free throws Jordan tosses up in practice didn't do him any good because there was "no resistance"
And all those practice throws that pitchers and QB throw---with no "resitence" nobody even trying to hit the pitch, nobody rushing the QB--all those are worthless?.....Have you shared this concept with the professional sports world?
And even worse, I have actually SEEN professional boxers shadowboxing---yep, Tyson, Ali, etc those mops had no clue how to train properly---guess they should have checked with you there Derreck---you could have set them stright and maybe then they could have become good fighters.

Sorry for the sarcasm--seriously--its just that any serious athlete will tell you that the key to being able to perform under pressure means doing a ton of reps--EVEN reps without any pressue or resistance.

Kata is simply a part of a training regime.....I don't think its needed--but then again I personally have gotten good results from my kata training----like anything actual results tend to vary quite a bit from person to person.

Besides--"kata" is kinda of broad term--one common meaning for "kata" is a "two person resistive exercise".

A-That is how say Judo defines a "kata"

B-My Goju actually has a two person, resistive, form of kata called bunkai.

So it might well depend on exactly how your defining it.

"if your learning to fight it should be non-exsistant"

A-Presumably your learning to fight even in a "traditional" system?
I have had little problems with using my "tradtional" art to fight.

B-How do you TEACH someone to fight? You have to show them how to throw a punch--right?
They have to have a form to base practice on...right?

So if I ask you to teach me to throw an right uppercut, then a stight left and then a right roundhouse----you would show me what they should look like....right.

Well, that is essentially what a kata is---a form/method of learning the moves.

Sure you practice the moves on a heavy bag---I was trained that you take all the moves from the kata and practice them on the bag.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 12:52 PM

Come on people. What most of us understand kata to be in martial arts are set patterns. I for one do not consider practicing throws in Judo kata. I for one do not consider shooting a gun at a range even related to kata. I for one do not consider shadow boxing even remotely close to kata.

Boxers spend countless of hours with sparring partners; that is resistance. They supplement this with heavy bags, focus mitts and perhaps shadow sparring but again no relations in my opinion as kata.

Quote:

And all those practice throws that pitchers and QB throw---with no "resitence" nobody even trying to hit the pitch, nobody rushing the QB--all those are worthless?.....Have you shared this concept with the professional sports world?




Unbelievable, this cannot be compared to kata! Take away anybody on the field and take away the ball and then have the QB pretend he is throwing the ball to imaginary receivers ... then you are getting close and that WOULD worthless. But as long as he has a ball in his hand throwing it then you cannot even compare this to kata. Now it seems like you are grasping.

People, to me kata is specific to martial arts. And again for the record I will say that by itself it is absolutely WORTHLESS. If this is all you train or if this is the bulk of your training then you are wasting your time unless you like this sort of stuff ... you know, kind of like dance class. However in a tradition system where there are actual techniques being taught with resistance then this CAN BE a good supplement. Can the time be better spent? Of course but this has always been a part of traditional martial arts training and always will be.

Quote:

Besides, I always get bent out of shape on people talking about "streetfighting"---if you REALLY need to protect yourself against violent--generally armed assault---then you better be getting a concealed carry permit and practice with you legal firearm regularly.
Anything short of that is just wasting time---my "empty hand skills" are just in case I don't have a weapon or can't get to something I can use as a weapon.
Most folks just kinda want to "play act" about this issue----people are either serious about their self defense of they are not----and ANY serious discussion of actual self defense invloves weapons----often firearms.




This I can agree with. Anything I can use as a weapon WILL be used to protect myself. Anything else is for those times that there is nothing. And the best way is to avoid situations; that is the best training of all.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 01:15 PM

Because people are continually trying to stretch kata to other aspects such as sports, I will do my own.

Right now I am pretending that I am lifting weights. Will I get any benefit? Well let's break this down. I have no resistance so my muscle will not grow. It has been led for us to believe that practicing movements even without resistance has benefits. Can I get good form and technique without the resistance of actual weights? People lift incorrectly with weights so how is it that pretending I'm lifting will help? Anybody that weight lifts knows that the minimum that a person needs is the bar for some sort of resistance and if you are an long term lifter such as myself my resistance for warming up or fine tuning form/technique must be quite a bit otherwise I get nothing from it.

But again, this is STRETCHING it like others have with football, boxing and others. Simply for most things in life you HAVE TO do actually do something to get the benefit. Face it, katas are specific to martial arts and what is done and that is why people do it. It has come from generation after generation. In martial arts it is "tested", don't recall in boxing anybody being tested on their shadow sparring.

The original post was; "Purpose of Kata in street situations". The answer is plain and simple; it has NO PLACE in the streets. If you are a thug then I'm sure kata is not in your repertoire. If you are defending yourself then you had better learn to use weapons and if none available you had better be a good runner. But should you have to ultimately defend yourself then solid resistance training will be required for you to actually have a chance. Or perhaps you can do a kata for them and they will walk away laughing.

The best stretch of this I like is the gun one. Take away the gun and let the person pretend they are shooting with one ... then you are getting closer. I guess when I was a kid playing cops and robbers, or cowboys and indians I was unaware I was training kata. Who would have known?
Posted by: trevek

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 02:00 PM

The all-knowing wiki (so it must be true)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata
Posted by: Kope

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 02:08 PM

Being effective in self defense requires 4 things:
Balance
Speed
Power
Correct Technique

Forms, when done correctly, address all four.

That does not mean that one should do only forms in order to be effective in a real fight. But someone who practices their forms correctly and diligently along with sparing training will see faster improvement and be more effective in a real life situation than someone who does not -- all other things being equal.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 03:28 PM

Kope,

Quote:

But someone who practices their forms correctly and diligently along with sparing training will see faster improvement and be more effective in a real life situation than someone who does not -- all other things being equal.





Disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. The reason is that while some may be able to defend themselves who study kata, there are those who defend themselves well without it.

To ascribe to kata these "better" benefits of effective use while not looking at why others who do not practice kata seem to be able to perform well is a point that must be taken and looked at. Also, that these characteristics that you have listed could not be gained in other ways, perhaps better ways, than kata would give them to you.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 03:32 PM

While some of that rings true, there are some flaws.

To say that practicing forms and spar training will see faster improvements in a real life situation then somebody who does not is not necessarily true. Many people are "natural" fighters without any training. Many people will training for years and never have their ability. Sure they may know more techniques and have more experience however they may never reach the same ability.

Effective street fighters obtained this from actually street fighting; no kata. They are actually doing the deed thus getting more experience.

In the system I was previously in we had patterns however I never learned more then from actually doing what I practiced with resistance. AND in fact my own Instructor repeated over and over that by competing you gain far more knowledge then class time and will be months ahead; and I proved that by competing in grappling tournaments.

Again katas can supplement a system however there is better time spent actually training. And it depends what you are training for. Just training martial arts then katas can be a nice addition. Training to fight or defense; should not be as prevalent or be in the system.

Real life situations need close to real scenarios to be effective. Knowing how it feels to be hit. Knowing what pain is. Knowing how to fend when you are exhausted. Pushing you physically and mentally to perform in the worst situations physically, mentally or even location wise.

But the majority of us are not training for this nor do we need to. Martial arts are for everybody and everybody can do kata. Not everybody wants to be batted around physically thus mentally breaking them down. Fighting and self defense is not for everybody. The phrase, "only the strong survive" rings true often.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 04:35 PM

Quote:

While some of that rings true, there are some flaws.

To say that practicing forms and spar training will see faster improvements in a real life situation then somebody who does not is not necessarily true. Many people are "natural" fighters without any training. Many people will training for years and never have their ability. Sure they may know more techniques and have more experience however they may never reach the same ability.




Faster results? No, it won't, just different results. Not everyone wants to be an mma fighter.
Just because people don't "need" kata doesn't make kata as a whole worthless imo. It comes down to your definition of kata, but more importantly how you train it.
I don't see kata as a good comparison to shadow boxing or any other related sports activities. That's just not tha same thing or a good comparison imo.

Quote:

Effective street fighters obtained this from actually street fighting; no kata. They are actually doing the deed thus getting more experience.




Yep, but do you think their first "deed" was better or more effective than their last? They had to learn and practice some how and kata training would have been a good avenue to pursue imo.
Do you think Kimboo was a good street fighter? Nope, he was big and aggressive,but severely lacked technique. what got him through was his physical attributes.

Quote:

In the system I was previously in we had patterns however I never learned more then from actually doing what I practiced with resistance. AND in fact my own Instructor repeated over and over that by competing you gain far more knowledge then class time and will be months ahead; and I proved that by competing in grappling tournaments.




There ya go. Your whole exposure to kata training was flawed at best. You probably got the stupid block and counter one-steps along with a multiple opponent scenario. If that's what people call kata training, then it is worthless imo.

Quote:

Again katas can supplement a system however there is better time spent actually training. And it depends what you are training for. Just training martial arts then katas can be a nice addition. Training to fight or defense; should not be as prevalent or be in the system.




Kata is merely a tool, it's a foundation you build on, it's not the end. Your previous kata training suggests that you were trying to drive a nail in with a screwdriver.

Kata is not learning to fight, it is learning self defense. It's learning how to end an attack in a quick and efficient manner.

Quote:

Real life situations need close to real scenarios to be effective. Knowing how it feels to be hit. Knowing what pain is. Knowing how to fend when you are exhausted. Pushing you physically and mentally to perform in the worst situations physically, mentally or even location wise.




This is where sparring comes in,but do it properly. Do you think these morons on internet videos slugging it out are learning to fight efficiently? They are resisting! They are in a "live" environment! They are pushing themselves mentally and physically! Must be good training!

http://www.break.com/index/backyard_fight_ends_in_knockout.html

Take him to the ground! Knee him!! awesome.....These boys need kata training,lol.

Quote:

But the majority of us are not training for this nor do we need to. Martial arts are for everybody and everybody can do kata. Not everybody wants to be batted around physically thus mentally breaking them down. Fighting and self defense is not for everybody. The phrase, "only the strong survive" rings true often.




"Doing" kata is not the end of kata training.

Still doesn't make kata training less, worthless, or a waste of time. Just a different form of transportation to the same destination.

People's exposure to kata and kata training is what limits their views on the matter imo. They spend a great deal of time learning how to DO patterns,forms,or kata and are given ridiculous breakdowns of the form. They practice these moves in a 'he does this, then you do this' manner and they wonder why it doesn't "work in a str33t situation" LOL! Come on! Did you expect it to work that way?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 05:24 PM

Brian, I understand some points you have made, don't misunderstand this however there are also points that I do not.

I've done patterns in TKD and I have looked at them and see the techniques and understand what I'm doing. I've imagined doing them against imaginary opponents like you are suppose to however I'd rather not imagine but actually have live opponents or partners that will provide the necessary resistance and push my limits to obtain results far faster and more effectively.

I've also had the opportunity of see forms/katas in person of other martial arts. I've seen countless of them also on the internet and I still stand by what I've said; there are more effective ways to train ESPECIALLY if self defense or fighting is a goal.

What I've found is many are not looking for the pure physical challenges of martial arts but want the traditional that does include these and that is fine. What I have a big problem is systems that this is the basis and that is not productive. Then there are those who read way too much into them and I've even heard asinine comments of grappling techniques are there if you look close enough; BULL!

If you want to practice self defense then practice self defense. It is a physical thing and forms while may have techniques within them they do not handle the required physical challenges needed. Sure they allow you to practice on your own but I would sooner practice punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing, etc. on a heavy bag on my own then perform moves in the air against imaginary opponents. I would sooner push my exhaustion level to increase my cardio plus work on techniques that I can see results.

While I enjoyed my previous training there were things I did not like; and to be honest I liked many of the patterns learned and there is some useful stuff there HOWEVER those techniques were better matured by actually using them with resistance. My TKD led me into BJJ and I will always be thankful of that and the biggest thing I liked about it is the all of the time physical aspects. If you are not doing it you are not doing anything to advance yourself and no kata would help. While I’ve been out of commission since August, I really enjoyed the physical and in your face training of Muay Thai and the further advancement of a full time BJJ school; so much that I am shaking in anticipation of going back as soon as my body lets me.

I guess it all comes down to how we learn and I have to have the physical to learn; you may be kata. You may get more from kata then myself or others. Your kata may be better then what I’ve learned. But there is nothing from what I’ve seen in person or on the internet that I would rank higher then actual physical resistance training. And if physical resistance training is where the majority of the learning comes from then I would rather continue this then take away from it to train a kata. I would sooner continue to weight lift to supplement my martial arts training so that my body becomes stronger and my conditioning improves then perform kata. This is me makes more sense. This to me is my direction. It may not be yours or others.

I have said that kata can supplement ones training in a traditional system because that is the only place kata is learned. And we know in traditional systems people are not all looking to be fighters or to defend themselves. Yes they have techniques in them that are useful, I won’t deny that, however those techniques can only improve if challenged physically. And again depending on what I’m looking for such as fighting, self defense, military, police or the like, kata has no real place as time is better spent in other areas that will matter more in the long run.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 05:31 PM

What I find problematic is that in something like TKD much of the tul/hyung is not reflected in the free-sparring. It is more used in step-sparring.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 06:31 PM

Quote:

Brian, I understand some points you have made, don't misunderstand this however there are also points that I do not.

I've done patterns in TKD and I have looked at them and see the techniques and understand what I'm doing. I've imagined doing them against imaginary opponents like you are suppose to however I'd rather not imagine but actually have live opponents or partners that will provide the necessary resistance and push my limits to obtain results far faster and more effectively.




One leads to the other.

1. Learn and perfect the movements of the kata.
2. Break the kata down to self defense techniques(bunkai)
3. Apply the techniques with increasing resistance.
Is this type of kata training "worthless" , "useless" , or a "waste of time" ? That's what I take issue with.

What's the problem here? I think it's the breakdown of techniques you normally see with tkd patterns that is flawed.

Quote:

I've also had the opportunity of see forms/katas in person of other martial arts. I've seen countless of them also on the internet and I still stand by what I've said; there are more effective ways to train ESPECIALLY if self defense or fighting is a goal.




Different, yes. More effective, can't see that?

Remember, we established the "best" way to train self defense, WEAPONS! If that is your true goal, then throw all the other crap out too!

Quote:

What I've found is many are not looking for the pure physical challenges of martial arts but want the traditional that does include these and that is fine.




What I have a problem with is that people think traditional arts don't have ANY good self defense techniques because of mainstream media.
We happen to do kata and use kata training as a foundation, so it must suck,lol.

Quote:

What I have a big problem is systems that this is the basis and that is not productive. Then there are those who read way too much into them and I've even heard asinine comments of grappling techniques are there if you look close enough; BULL!




Kata is full of grappling techniques! Locks, throws, chokes, dislocations, etc....,but NOT groundfighting IMO.
Groundfighting in kata? Well, people have to make money somehow! They make up things that were "always there" in kata to sell dvd's, books, and seminars. Still, that doesn't make good kata training ineffective.

Quote:

If you want to practice self defense then practice self defense. It is a physical thing and forms while may have techniques within them they do not handle the required physical challenges needed.




Not if they are just "done" and not trained, that is my point.

Quote:

Sure they allow you to practice on your own but I would sooner practice punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing, etc. on a heavy bag on my own then perform moves in the air against imaginary opponents. I would sooner push my exhaustion level to increase my cardio plus work on techniques that I can see results.




I do both. Why does it have to be one or the other? Both can be useful and enjoyed.
Wouldn't it be BETTER to spend your time with knife techniques or at the shooting range? We are talking about the BEST self defense here, right? Nope, just different ways of doing things.

Quote:

While I enjoyed my previous training there were things I did not like; and to be honest I liked many of the patterns learned and there is some useful stuff there HOWEVER those techniques were better matured by actually using them with resistance.




Doing kata and one step sparring is useless unless you have good instruction and add increasing resistance. The whole multiple opponents scenario, block and counter, and other silly bunkai IS a waste of time.

Quote:

My TKD led me into BJJ and I will always be thankful of that and the biggest thing I liked about it is the all of the time physical aspects. If you are not doing it you are not doing anything to advance yourself and no kata would help.




Mt TKD led me to Goju, where I learned how to train kata, not just do them. The one steps I learned in tkd would most likely just get you hurt.

Quote:

While I’ve been out of commission since August, I really enjoyed the physical and in your face training of Muay Thai and the further advancement of a full time BJJ school; so much that I am shaking in anticipation of going back as soon as my body lets me.

I guess it all comes down to how we learn and I have to have the physical to learn; you may be kata. You may get more from kata then myself or others. Your kata may be better then what I’ve learned. But there is nothing from what I’ve seen in person or on the internet that I would rank higher then actual physical resistance training. And if physical resistance training is where the majority of the learning comes from then I would rather continue this then take away from it to train a kata. I would sooner continue to weight lift to supplement my martial arts training so that my body becomes stronger and my conditioning improves then perform kata. This is me makes more sense. This to me is my direction. It may not be yours or others.




You are stuck on the performance of kata and truly lack understanding of good kata training imo.

Quote:

I have said that kata can supplement ones training in a traditional system because that is the only place kata is learned. And we know in traditional systems people are not all looking to be fighters or to defend themselves.




WRONG. People start martial arts MAINLY to learn how to defend themselves. That may not be what they get,but buyer beware, the ATA won't help in good self defense.

Quote:

Yes they have techniques in them that are useful, I won’t deny that, however those techniques can only improve if challenged physically. And again depending on what I’m looking for such as fighting, self defense, military, police or the like, kata has no real place as time is better spent in other areas that will matter more in the long run.




Different strokes for different folks my friend! We are only limited by our exposure.
Posted by: Meibukan003

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 07:20 PM

Hmmm... Some very good points...

I absolutly agree to cross training, but I feel that cross training (gym, running, swimming (In this case I'm not including multiple MA disciplines, just stuff to increase endurance, strength, etc..)) ADDS to the energy to be managed. I also agree that there must be SOME form of sparring (controlled or freestyle) teaches one to control the energy in real combat. It has been said that 'power is nothing without control' (AKA energy management). True enough about weapons in these situations, twice the reason to manage H2H combat energies well and study weapons (both martial and street / improvised).

Thanks for the many view points though, there are points that I had missed.

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 07:32 PM

P.S. On a different, non-related matter.

your "Bo-Staff", lol. Are you aware that Bo means staff? It's like saying staff-staff or Bo-Bo,lol. And....titanium screw together? Cool, I like the glow in the dark NUMBCHUCKS too!!
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 07:39 PM

We don't do forms for anything other than weapons. And that's just bb level and up and only for weapons as you can't really go around whacking your partners on the head with a big stick or sword.

I've got no problems with anyone doing them. They do help reinforce form and balance etc. My biggest issue with forms is one of timing. Especially blocking. Resistance is not present either but timing is a huge issue here. I've seen so many instructors teach these kata where this is an up block or down block etc. Blocking especially, but really all technique if you think about it, requires correct timing. You have to see the movement coming toward you and time your block and counter correctly or it's worthless. Now, if you've ingrained an extra millisecond or two in your movement for X or Y techniques and repeat several thousand times... couldn't you be programming exactly the wrong thing by doing this? Just a thought here, as I said we don't do them. I stand firm on the notion that no block can be learned without a partner attacking if for no other reason than the timing.

I really think this whole thing is done backwards. Why not learn bunkai and then if you want to make a solo pattern for exercise, implement it afterwards? It seems to make more sense to me. I trianed with a school for a while last summer that did forms and I had a rough time remembering all these steps. Then one day the instructor goes throught the application of "dragon's tail spanks the monkey's a$$" or whatever the series was called. Instantly, I could run the whole pattern. It's like, why didn't you tell me that to begin with instead of rolling me around in the esoteric mud for weeks?

I just see that as a better progression. 1. movemnent 2. timing 3. resistance ... then move on to the breakdancer's guide to Kung Fu for those who aren't allowed to read or write. Just my 2 cents here. Not trying to offend. See the actual comedy here before blowing a gasket.
Posted by: Meibukan003

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 07:43 PM

Quote:

P.S. On a different, non-related matter.

your "Bo-Staff", lol. Are you aware that Bo means staff? It's like saying staff-staff or Bo-Bo,lol. And....titanium screw together? Cool, I like the glow in the dark NUMBCHUCKS too!!




LOL, I'll fix it right away. Old habit.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/28/08 11:48 PM

< you can't really go around whacking your partners on the head with a big stick or sword. >>

One small picky point: you do not go around whacking your partners on the head with a sword; a shinai maybe, but not a sword.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 12:18 AM

Principles like kime, tenshin/taisabaki and other kinesthetics are grooved in kata.

I've seen many fighters go back to combinations in a bid to groove certain movements. All kata is, is a string of combinations.

If your kata doesn't have anything in common with your sparring (as suggested above) you might like to revist your sparring, your kata or both.

The fact that kata is "rote" misses the point: you can't inculcate movement unless the sequence you choose for inculcation is remembered rote. You have to do many, many repetitions before something is absorbed.

Kata only wastes valuable time if you aren't doing it properly - or if you have no understanding of what it is for and what it produces. To illustrate my point, I have rarely, if ever, seen good "kime" in someone who doesn't practise kata; and kime is essential for bareknuckle fighting.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 12:56 AM

Quote:

Because people are continually trying to stretch kata to other aspects such as sports, I will do my own.

Right now I am pretending that I am lifting weights. Will I get any benefit?




Sorry, but I think you are creating a straw man. Kata and "pretend weights" are not equivalent - even remotely.

Just because moves are isolated it does not mean they are "pretend" or are useless. Boxers "shadow box" or do "air drills". Are these practices "a waste of time"?

BJJ practitioners will do drills on the ground without a partner, learning to move from their backs onto their front etc. Why is this any different from learning tenshin/taisabaki (principles of body movement) in tma? One of the principle purposes of forms/kata is to teach (and provide a means of isloating and practising) such movement...

The real issue is whether kata alone is sufficient for realistic defence. The answer would be no, of course. But if you think that just because someone practises kata he or she is not effective, you're mistaken. Obviously then you haven't trained with the likes of Morio Higaonna (who trains kata intensively - as well as hitting makiwara, bags etc.).

In the end, traditional martial arts have a very different tactical approach and a different skill set from modern Western combat sports. You are right that kata is "useless" if your sparring is a type of "faux boxing" (as I have called it) unrelated to the kata. I apply my kata techniques and methods. And I suggest to anyone that if you want to use traditional techniques properly you're going to find kata useful in developing that skill set.

And please don't get me started with the assertion that the tma skill set "doesn't work" or is "incapable of being applied" or "ends up being identical to [your] Western combat sport if applied" (which is the underlying assumption in some recent threads). Again, visit Higaonna's dojo (as one example) and try your luck there. I suggest that dojo because it is an example of "practical" karate/tma in a world where most tma is "art" or "exercise" oriented. It is appropriate that I choose the former than the latter especially since most combat sports practitioners pick their examples of from elite ring athletes (where they could pick examples from the many "salarymen" who go to "white collar boxing/kickboxing/MMA gyms" once per week and kick a few bags and don some gloves for third-rate sparring).
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 01:23 AM

Quote:

I really think this whole thing is done backwards. Why not learn bunkai and then if you want to make a solo pattern for exercise, implement it afterwards? It seems to make more sense to me. I trianed with a school for a while last summer that did forms and I had a rough time remembering all these steps. Then one day the instructor goes throught the application of "dragon's tail spanks the monkey's a$$" or whatever the series was called. Instantly, I could run the whole pattern. It's like, why didn't you tell me that to begin with instead of rolling me around in the esoteric mud for weeks?




I think there is a lot of merit in what you say.

The way kata is taught and used traditionally leaves a lot to be desired. I have often isolated certain practical techniques into short sequences with the appropriate footwork because I've seen the need to inculcate these into my subconscious - so that they are second nature and emerge spontaneously and correctly in sparring. This would be an example of your "reverse approach".

The problem with a lot of kata is that they have strayed so far from realistic practice (through years of non-application) that they no longer bear any real relationship to the implementation of the original techniques that were their genesis. I call this process "dilution". These kinds of kata then expose all kata-based practice to the kinds of ridicule levelled on this thread.

However, if you adopt a pragmatic viewpoint (and research appropriately) you should be able to see which techniques are diluted/theoretical/aesthetic/stylistic and which ones can be applied or serve some other conditioning or training purpose.

In my opinion, an example of theory "run amok" can be found in katas that feature "shaking" from the waist rather than connecting moves in a flow (kata is meant to teach the ability to move fluidly and in connection with your deflections and attacks, not stand there shaking your booty - see http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/whole-lotta-shakin-pre-loading-hips.html).
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 07:27 AM

The real question with any method of training is whether it is useful - not whether it is "pretend". If we were to disregard things that aren't like "real fighting" we wouldn't do exercises like running or skipping and other conditioning.

Presumably people Dereck and John are saying that they don't think kata is useful. I and others disagree. But regardless, the question of whether kata is "pretend fighting" (like "pretend weightlifting") is just a red herring - or as I have said, a straw man:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/straw-men-2-kata-and-pretend-fighting.html
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 09:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Because people are continually trying to stretch kata to other aspects such as sports, I will do my own.

Right now I am pretending that I am lifting weights. Will I get any benefit?




Sorry, but I think you are creating a straw man. Kata and "pretend weights" are not equivalent - even remotely.




You missed the point. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying just like shadow boxing is not kata. Like throwing a football in practice is not kata. Like shooting a gun a the range is not kata.

Too many people were stretching what kata to other things when kata is kata; and only kata.

Posted by: Kope

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 11:31 AM

Quote:

Kope,

Quote:

But someone who practices their forms correctly and diligently along with sparing training will see faster improvement and be more effective in a real life situation than someone who does not -- all other things being equal.





Disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. The reason is that while some may be able to defend themselves who study kata, there are those who defend themselves well without it.






First, I am not claiming that those who do not perform Kata are not capable of defending themselves adequately. I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.

In most cases, all things aren't equal. But that in no way detracts from my point. You are disagreeing with a straw-man.

Quote:


To ascribe to kata these "better" benefits of effective use while not looking at why others who do not practice kata seem to be able to perform well is a point that must be taken and looked at.





Not really.

Quote:


Also, that these characteristics that you have listed could not be gained in other ways, perhaps better ways, than kata would give them to you.




Well over a thousand years of experiential evidence around the world disagrees with you.

The problem, I suspect, is that you have limited experience in how forms are correctly performed. I'm also suspecting that you imagine I am saying that one should spend less time doing things such as sparing in order to perform forms. That is also not what I'm claiming.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 11:38 AM

I think people put too much into what Kata is or isn't, kata is just part of Karate a catalogue of a Masters techniques. It also carries the look and feel of a system imho. It doesn't neccessary teach how to fight but maybe how to take advantage of a certain situation.

My personal view is if you did to a person what most intermediate Katas suggested you'd be put in jail for manslaughter or aggravated assault. But Kata is just the study guide of a system just as sets, forms and dance are the way of Silat and other supposited Combat systems they transfer there skill sets through a lesson plan.

Of course doing the set/form/dance/kata by yourself won't bring about all the skills needed to adjust to change in combat.

But kata is the road map to figting effectively and efficiently, not only to injury but to heal but thats another topic. Kata movement doesn't help in fighting no more then practicng a left or right hand punch over and over by yourself. But it does help refine and develope the overall technique that can be used in a real situation when needed. Kata isn't the Birthday Cake but it could be the icing or one of the candle of the whole, that makes the cake have its meaning.

Kata helps if you don't know how to fight (defining basic movement), after learning to fight a certain way it has less meaning. After being successful at fighting you want refinement and Kata becomes another study source, If you choose to go this route.

There are many ways/method to reach a end Kata is but a part of one. By no means is it the the fastest or only way.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 01:04 PM

Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




And your evidence is........? Wouldn't pro fighters train kata if that was true? I really have no dog in the kata/no kata fight, but statements like that are simply incorrect. If you want to do kata, feel free. But don't make spurious claims about it's efficacy.

Quote:

Quote:


To ascribe to kata these "better" benefits of effective use while not looking at why others who do not practice kata seem to be able to perform well is a point that must be taken and looked at.





Not really.




Care to elaborate? Butterfly makes a very valid point. "Nuh-uh" is not a reasonable reply.

Quote:

Well over a thousand years of experiential evidence around the world disagrees with you.

The problem, I suspect, is that you have limited experience in how forms are correctly performed. I'm also suspecting that you imagine I am saying that one should spend less time doing things such as sparing in order to perform forms. That is also not what I'm claiming.




You would be very wise not to make assumptions about the quality or depth of butterfly's martial arts education. He is EXTREMELY skilled and knowledgable, much more than what he lets on here.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 01:30 PM

Quoted by Kope
Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




Are you kidding me???? And what do you base that on?

Simple fact is this; kata is not required to learn self defense or to learn to fight. Those that train kata are no better off then somebody that doesn't train them. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

There are those individuals that "may" benefit from it but then again there are probably more that wouldn't. Just like some learn from books, DVDs and the such, these types of tools can be beneficial but not necessary.
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 02:08 PM

The people I have seen who could make use of Kata could already fight anyway and their interpretations came from that fighting ability.
Iv never seen it the other way round where a Kata teaches the non fighter to fight or fight back.
From researching the research of other more knowledgable martial artists katas seem to be a mismatch of allsorts from different origins.Some being actual ideas from fights someone (the kata/form creater) must of had and other things just excercises or some kind of cultural symbols expressed in movement.Finding whats what is difficult and lost because we dont know the origins so Iv concluded its just better to learn to fight.Then maybe going back to katas/forms if someone wanted to and some ideas could be found.But learning to fight against other skilled fighters should never be overlooked IMO,and is the key.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 08:57 PM

You don't NEED kata for pro competition. You probably don't even WANT it. That doesn't mean it is useless for civilian defence.

A career in competition has a relatively small "window of opportunity". Those competing want quick results. Kata, on the other hand, is very much a long-term proposition.

For those of us who are interested in long-term development and ongoing improvement, kata is (in my experience and that of my senior training partners/colleagues) quite useful. It isolates certain movements/concepts for refinement. ["Kime" or focus is one such refinement: yet it takes many years to develop and is largely redundant in a gloved discipline.]

In these circumstances I think it is hardly surprising that competition fighters don't use kata.

In any event, the argument: "pro competition fighters don't use kata, therefore it is useless for civilian self defence" is fundamentally flawed on another level: it assumes that competition is the same as civilian defence. It is not. You can scoff, gloss over the issue or provide qualifications etc. all you like. This point does not change.

I am not suggesting that pro fighters are anything other than good fighters; but they are peparing for a specific activity which has specific rules and other environmental variables. It is an activity for which kata is not going to yield results sufficiently quickly.

I have different (long term) goals and hence kata has some use to me.
Posted by: Kope

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 11:21 PM

Quote:

Quoted by Kope
Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




Are you kidding me???? And what do you base that on?




The entirety of peered research on performance enhancement in the field of sports psychology.
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/29/08 11:53 PM

How about throwing us some names or published papers that validate your claim?
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 01:44 AM

To practice kata to become better able to defend yourself is like saying you practice swimming to become a better runner. While some things can translate over in that regard, ultimately you would be wasting your time. Time which would be better spent working closely with what it is you wish to become better at.

With that said, I would sooner do iron palm training than subject myself to practicing kata again.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 02:55 AM

Quote:

First, I am not claiming that those who do not perform Kata are not capable of defending themselves adequately. I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.





As a long time practitioner and advocate of kata I HAVE to disagree with this premise. But, I'd like to know what they would see faster and greater results in?

Quote:

Well over a thousand years of experiential evidence around the world disagrees with you.




Wha? hehee, now that's funny! I don't know anyone here that is 1000 years old or who can say without falter who did what back when.

Quote:

The problem, I suspect, is that you have limited experience in how forms are correctly performed. I'm also suspecting that you imagine I am saying that one should spend less time doing things such as sparing in order to perform forms. That is also not what I'm claiming.




I have to agree that most people practice kata wrong. Not just in the performance,but in the overall training of kata. Performing a kata will only make you better at performing kata. you have to USE what you are performing.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:05 AM

Quote:


Simple fact is this; kata is not required to learn self defense or to learn to fight. Those that train kata are no better off then somebody that doesn't train them. To think otherwise is ludicrous.




I could argue that point,but there is no way to prove any of it.

Quote:

There are those individuals that "may" benefit from it but then again there are probably more that wouldn't. Just like some learn from books, DVDs and the such, these types of tools can be beneficial but not necessary.




May? Yes, there are more that don't benefit from kata and here's why.

1. They are shown unrealistic and cheesy bunkai(one steps) for self defense like you see in the 2nd dan video on the TKD forum.

2. They are shown multiple opponents scenarios fighting off attackers in all directions with a block/counter.

3. The techniques are so watered down and misunderstood that it's ridiculous!

4. Cheesy one step sparring drills that are a complete waste of time.

5. Exaggerated stances.

6. Too many kata. 60 for shotokan!! A kata can be a complete fighting system with a muriad of self defense techniques to learn and practice, 60!!

Do you feel my disdain for the way kata is trained by people these days? Then, when they teach others what they don't know how can a student learn and understand? Ofcourse they dismiss kata as useless!!
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:11 AM

Quote:

The people I have seen who could make use of Kata could already fight anyway and their interpretations came from that fighting ability.




You misunderstand. Kata is not fighting ability, it is about self defense, i.e. end the attack quickly

Quote:

Iv never seen it the other way round where a Kata teaches the non fighter to fight or fight back.




See above.

Quote:

From researching the research of other more knowledgable martial artists katas seem to be a mismatch of allsorts from different origins.Some being actual ideas from fights someone (the kata/form creater) must of had and other things just excercises or some kind of cultural symbols expressed in movement.Finding whats what is difficult and lost because we dont know the origins so Iv concluded its just better to learn to fight.Then maybe going back to katas/forms if someone wanted to and some ideas could be found.But learning to fight against other skilled fighters should never be overlooked IMO,and is the key.




LOL, it's not all about fighting and we don't all aspire to be MMA champions.

Kata is just another route to take if you wish. MMA fighters don't need kata, and if you train kata wrong,then there is no point anyway.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:13 AM

Quote:

To practice kata to become better able to defend yourself is like saying you practice swimming to become a better runner. While some things can translate over in that regard, ultimately you would be wasting your time. Time which would be better spent working closely with what it is you wish to become better at.

With that said, I would sooner do iron palm training than subject myself to practicing kata again.




That's your opinion. I'd like to know what your experience with kata is that brought you to this conclusion.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:49 AM

Quote:

To practice kata to become better able to defend yourself is like saying you practice swimming to become a better runner. While some things can translate over in that regard, ultimately you would be wasting your time. Time which would be better spent working closely with what it is you wish to become better at.

With that said, I would sooner do iron palm training than subject myself to practicing kata again.




I agree with Brian.

Many people train kata incorrectly - giving rise to a misunderstanding of its purpose.

Kata is principally a series of isolated techniques. Every physical discipline - including every fighting system - involves some element of technique isolation as part of training. In boxing technique isolation happens in air drills; in BJJ it is with floor drills sans partner. In tennis, golf - you name it - there are drills which "go through the motions".

If you don't understand what kata develops I suggest it is because:
    (a) you never did it properly; and/or
    (b) you never did enough to realise its benefits.
I wonder, for example, whether you and the other kata detractors here understand what I mean by focus ("kime" in Japanese) or whether this concept is a complete mystery to you.

If it is a mystery I can point you to any number of videos of traditional punching which demonstrate this concept. In essence it involves learning to stop your punch without deceleration. In terms of physics this is the key to maximising your momentum transfer (and hence "hitting harder").

I can show you videos of good makiwara punching. See if you can hit it anywhere near as hard. And if you think it is all about just practising on the makiwara, think again. The best karate punchers will tell you that they do/have done K10s if not K100s of "air" punches (in kata and otherwise) so as to groove an efficient motion and learn "focus". It is in this vein (and for this reason) that a kenjutsu practitioner will practise 1000 "air" cuts with a sword every morning. He/she could just go straight to cutting rice stalks, but they don't. And if you think they don't know how to cut with their swords, think again...

Apart from teaching these sorts of essential principles of tma, kata is, as Brian points out, usually ignored and the techniques that comprise them are hardly ever applied in free-sparring when they can and should. I certainly have.
Posted by: skinters

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 07:02 AM

Quote:




If it is a mystery I can point you to any number of videos of traditional punching which demonstrate this concept. In essence it involves learning to stop your punch without deceleration. In terms of physics this is the key to maximising your momentum transfer (and hence "hitting harder").






focus (kime) refers to the concentration of all energy of the body the instant a technique makes contact with its target ?found this in an article on kime that i would guess amongst karate practioners is universaly accepted ?

not having a dig here dan,but the above example just says proper relaxation body mechanics result in hitting harder for all of us who practice MA no matter what its called.

so im with you there no mystery at all.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 09:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quoted by Kope
Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




Are you kidding me???? And what do you base that on?




The entirety of peered research on performance enhancement in the field of sports psychology.




Kope, are you a politician? I would have sooner have your tell me "they" say so. Let's see you back up this mumbo jumbo because otherwise you are talking out your @ss!
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 09:18 AM

Brian, I have never seen any kata on the internet or in person that would lead me to believe otherwise, unless you are doing something totally different and are the only one.

The statement above that doing kata will only make your kata better; or something like that, I can agree with that.

Kata, that I believe is left to the individual and "their" interpretation. A person such as yourself may get something out of it as that is what "you" are looking for. But for me to believe kata is an excellent self defense tool to end fights quickly; not going to buy it. You want to end a fight quickly then you need to learn how to fight and kata is not fighting. You need to work on timing and speed and technique and while you may argue that is what you are doing, without an opponent that you cannot truly comprehend the uniqueness of what you think may happen and what will happen as people are unpredictable. Kata doesn't allow for any interaction and that is one if its failings.

I honestly would like to see your kata to make my own interpretation. You put down TKD patterns however as I mentioned before, I can see the techniques and can understand them however I would sooner use those techniques against a resisting opponent/partner to get the "true" benefit. And as for "one-steps", working with a partner the benefits are far greater then any kata any day of the week. Dealing with sweeps, falling techniques, hard blocking, timing, distance and other useful factors; I see nothing wrong with this UNLESS this again is your sole thing you do. Supplement it is useful but by itself not. I would sooner have some type of contact then doing techniques in my mind, in the air.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 09:19 AM

Kope -

Quote:

The entirety of peered research on performance enhancement in the field of sports psychology.




Unless you provide said reseach, you are simply bull$hitting. Again, if that was true, pro fighters would be doing it. Put up or shut up.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 10:11 AM

Well skinters, there's focus, and then there's focus...

The definition you've found is correct, but tma prioritises "kime" to a far greater extent than any sports discipline I'm aware of.

In physics focus or kime is a combination of:
    (a) minimising deceleration;
    (b) correct distancing; and
    (c) optimum depth penetration.
This might seem like common sense, but as I've said, how it is implemented varies considerably.

Have a look at a good karateka and listen to the "crack" of the punch. It isn't just stiff clothing either. Try it yourself. Can you stop your punch with anywhere near the minimal deceleration exhibited by, say, Ed in the video below?

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VxwzZ7sC8L0

Or try the whiplike crack of Tsuguo Sakumoto:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-axVODk-E

If you think this is just show, you're wrong. The exact same technique is used against a makiwara (striking post). Try hitting one and see how you go:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IG1X8Ouu-GU

Focus (kime) is just one small aspect of tma that is trained in kata (others include technique grooving, combinations, footwork, flow etc.). I have chosen focus as an example only. I'm not trying to exhaustively list what kata is for.

Suffice it to say, focus is apposite to this dicussion because it relates to the question that sparked this thread. Focus is directly relevant to bareknuckle fighting in civilian defence. And focus (in a dynamic context) is one of the key indicators of a good kata performance imho.

As I said before, if you are a ring fighter you may never want or need to develop focus to this level. It won't really help you with gloved sports disciplines where different striking is preferred. Moreover, if you want competition ability you have other, more urgent, things to work on, like conditioning, power and fitness. I wouldn't be dwelling on traditional skills too much if I were preparing for a ring fight tomorrow.

But for long term civilian defence kata is not quite as esoteric and useless as you think. That's all I'm trying to say.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 11:31 AM

If you want to do kata then do kata. If you get something out of doing kata then do kata. It can be beautiful as I've seen some very unique ones and it does have techniques it it. HOWEVER kata is not required for self defense and will only improve one's self defense if one feels it will; it is not necessary nor will it improve ones self defense.

There are more then likely more people more effective at self defense that don't do kata then those that do. Each have benefited so again, if you think it will benefit you then do it. Are there better ways to be more effective at self defense; for sure. We each learn things different ways and if kata is how you learn then continue to do so. I wonder however that many feel that kata is the way to go as that is what they were told and have trained for years but have not been in a quality system that does teach self defense that doesn't have it it in? Not saying the system they are in is not quality, I am saying that there are other systems out there that are better then others that don't have kata in them that would be as if not more beneficial.
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 11:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

To practice kata to become better able to defend yourself is like saying you practice swimming to become a better runner. While some things can translate over in that regard, ultimately you would be wasting your time. Time which would be better spent working closely with what it is you wish to become better at.

With that said, I would sooner do iron palm training than subject myself to practicing kata again.




That's your opinion. I'd like to know what your experience with kata is that brought you to this conclusion.



I spent three years, when I studied Taekwondo, learning and practicing kata. I had no other choice considering it was the bulk of my training and what made or break your chances at being promoted to the next rank. Sparring received very little emphasis and the sparring we did do was light-contact and usually lasted for five minutes.

Now, it was during this time that I had a friend who was a wrestling nut. Who also studied Taekwondo in the same school as me, but left for reasons unknown to me. Often times when I would hang out with him, I would end up having to defend myself against him. Most of the time it was just wrestling, a few times it was boxing. And I got my ass handed to me every time.

Does kata have it's place? Sure, I don't deny that it does, despite my dislike towards kata. However, when it comes to self-defense and fighting, you're better off doing something else such as sparring or hitting the heavy bag.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 12:48 PM

Really I go way back into the mid 70's TKD (really this was Tang Soo Do) back then was always 70% sparring 20% form and 10% self defense most practiced control head shots and nearly full powered kick/strikes to the body. Now in most TKD schools its the opposite KO head kicks and mid/heavy body shots maybe no hand shots to the face. Now its more like 80% sparring and 10% forms and 10% self defense. There is strong TKD and weak taught TKD.

My Karate training was more 50% sparring, 30% forms amd 20% self defense really the forms carried over into your self defense and even two man forms, so uit was more 50-50. Contact was mid to heavy contact KO anywhere but the back sparring (light taps to the back in self defense), even after being swept and stomped, if you lack in defense.

So again it's how the schools teaches and the emphasis it gives Kata and of course the importance of what they give it. As mentioned some people perform Kata for trophies and Tradition others study it, it is the system. In Systems like Goju-ryu (my base) Kata is the system it is studied and is expected to be applied in self defense and sparring sometimes. Now this is not the symbolic pattern but part of that is a reply to a situation that present.

As mentioned its not the only way but it is a part of Karate
so much so that if you don't study Kata is it Karate? Should it not be called combat whatever or self defense whatever? The purpose of Kata is not to street fight. But the application of Kata can deter such situations.

Been there done that, I use to street box, after trainin I am better at street fighting because of studying Kata which covers the human body weak points. My 1st Karate Instructor whipped me bad doing the same me being 40-50lbs heavier and 4-5" taller when I attacked him.


Like you after years of training (when I was young)I tested my skills against boxers, wrestlers, savate and other skilled artist. Most of the sports are not prepared for the level of viciousness that Karate offers. Like sweeps and stomps standing or chokes and joint locks while grappling. Kata help why re- invent the wheel, i'm left thinking.
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 02:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The people I have seen who could make use of Kata could already fight anyway and their interpretations came from that fighting ability.




You misunderstand. Kata is not fighting ability, it is about self defense, i.e. end the attack quickly

Quote:

Iv never seen it the other way round where a Kata teaches the non fighter to fight or fight back.




See above.

Quote:

From researching the research of other more knowledgable martial artists katas seem to be a mismatch of allsorts from different origins.Some being actual ideas from fights someone (the kata/form creater) must of had and other things just excercises or some kind of cultural symbols expressed in movement.Finding whats what is difficult and lost because we dont know the origins so Iv concluded its just better to learn to fight.Then maybe going back to katas/forms if someone wanted to and some ideas could be found.But learning to fight against other skilled fighters should never be overlooked IMO,and is the key.




LOL, it's not all about fighting and we don't all aspire to be MMA champions.

Kata is just another route to take if you wish. MMA fighters don't need kata, and if you train kata wrong,then there is no point anyway.




Its not misunderstanding its just different views.

Everyone wants to end a violent situation quicky.Even two guys agreeing to have a street fight.

Personaly I dont like the words 'self defence'.I think its too victim oriontated.Too like 'I am the hero defending myself from the bad man'.
Its a fight.If you are attacked it is a fight.A fight to get away..a fight to save someone else.A fight to put them down fast.Whatever the desired outcome you want you have to fight to get it.
A gazzelle tries to fight back against a Lion...a seal against a shark.It does not apply SD.You dont shout 'do some SD' at the screen.Its 'fight the f### back'.

I train to fight or fight back,at a fighters intensity with a fighters conditioning and skills.With a fighters heart.If someone thinks I am a victim they dont have a clue about my fighting mentality thats already ready for them if they want to attack me.I am one step ahead.
I prefer that mentality to being a victim waiting for an attack and then applying SD.(I am not Saying that is your mentality just why I call it fighting or fighting back..)
And it does not mean I am going out getting into fights at every oppurtunity or situation that comes up.As that is what I suspect will be brought up as a reply.Because ,yes ,I have social skills to not let it get that far or even have people want to attack me.And I know how to be aware etc etc.BUT if someone attacks me they have a very violent intense FIGHT on their hands.
Posted by: skinters

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 02:54 PM

Have a look at a good karateka and listen to the "crack" of the punch. It isn't just stiff clothing either. Try it yourself. Can you stop your punch with anywhere near the minimal deceleration exhibited by, say, Ed in the video below?

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VxwzZ7sC8L0


If you think this is just show, you're wrong. The exact same technique is used against a makiwara (striking post). Try hitting one and see how you go.


http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IG1X8Ouu-GU



dan,

well you explain the first example as showing a crack of the punch not just because of the stiff clothing he wearing,but i think you would find that without it you wouldnt hear anything.compare it to the warrior example where the guy is wearing short sleeve,and although there is an audible woosh,is the kata not equal if not superior compared to the first.

what i do see is relaxation and good technique wich to me equals power no matter what you practice or whatever its called.i suspect your going to say well unless you have reached this level or expereinced this up close you will never know.dan i not trying to discredit you but i try to call it as i see it.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:34 PM

Matxtx, I liked your post about not being a victim and it is fighting; you are correct. Either you are training to fight or you are not. You can go through the motions but until you make that distinction you probably truly will never be prepared if something arises where you have to use those skills. And because of that I feel that you need resistance training is the primary and the focus of your training. You need the conditioning and the mental focus required. Because of this I feel that while kata does touch on this a bit I feel however there are other means to ensure you are more prepared.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:50 PM

Quote:

Have a look at a good karateka and listen to the "crack" of the punch. It isn't just stiff clothing either. Try it yourself. Can you stop your punch with anywhere near the minimal deceleration exhibited by, say, Ed in the video below?

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VxwzZ7sC8L0

Or try the whiplike crack of Tsuguo Sakumoto:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-axVODk-E

If you think this is just show, you're wrong. The exact same technique is used against a makiwara (striking post). Try hitting one and see how you go:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IG1X8Ouu-GU




First video, I have done almost the exact same pattern in Taekwondo; and this is his clothing making the sound and I have made the exact same sound. One thing with TKD patterns I was taught was to be strong and the strong and the control used, that with the clothing will make this noise. Take away the clothing you will not hear this noise.

The second video I still say it is the clothing. The wooshing noise is coming from his strong movements and the air going up the sleeves.

The third and final video I skimmed through as it was 10 minutes. I believe I found the section you were talking about hitting the board. Anybody hitting that board would make that noise.
Posted by: everyone

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 03:53 PM

When I practiced TKD back in the mid-80’s, I didn’t see much point in kata. The movements were fairly strait forward: kick, block, or punch. I started to appreciate forms/kata more when I began studying kung fu. There are so many techniques and the movements are much more complex. The forms really helped me to remember them all and allowed me to practice without a partner. I would have been wasting my and my partners time if I tried to apply the techniques with resistance without first perfecting (at least close) the movement.

If your style of fighting consists of some basic movements then you probably will see little benefit in forms/kata. The more complex the style, the more useful it is to have forms/kata practice. There is nothing wrong with simple fighting styles, many would argue that keeping things simple is a plus. For those who enjoy the options the more complex styles have to offer, kata/forms are very valuable.

Kata/Forms is just a training tool. Like it or not, many people find benefit from practicing them. If you don’t care to practice kata, kick a heavy bag, sit in a horse stance, spar, push hands, or whatever, that’s your choice. Train the way you think will be the best for you in relation to your fighting style.

This is not an either/or type of thing. Yes, resistance training should be central to your training, but there are also other valuable ways to train. Sparring is great but I would not recomend it as the only training either.
Posted by: skinters

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 04:14 PM

Quote:




The second video I still say it is the clothing. The wooshing noise is coming from his strong movements and the air going up the sleeves.






i left out the second example from dan but used the last vid to show it has to be the clothing that makes the cracking noise as he goes through his kata with short sleeves along with woosh but minus the crack hahahaaaa sorry but the tears are rolling down my face
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 06:55 PM

Clothing makes it louder - for sure. But after almost 30 years I can tell when someone is just wearing starched clothing or if he or she is punching with kime.

Video yourself and see if you can do anything like that. As for the second video of Sakumoto - he was many times the world champion. Just clothing! If you can do what he does in terms of punching, I'll give you a medal! Many people have tried - he's a benchmark, not a clothes horse!

And hit a board, by all means. If you can hit even remotely as hard as Higaonna you'll be doing very well indeed. This is a very specific skill. The thing is, Higaonna can also hit a heavy bag as hard/harder than any boxer... I've trained with the man and seen him for myself. For that matter my instructors were of a similar ilk. Modern combat sports practitioners don't have this kind of skill. They have other skills, yes. But they can't do this kind of punching because it takes a specific kind of training which they don't do and don't understand.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 07:48 PM

Yeah..but why the discussion of hard hitting if it isn't directly attributable to kata...which is what this thread is about?? It's a no brainer that hitting hard is preferable to no power punches.

My own experience is quite limited. I watched my kid learn TKD, and do patterns for years...only to have them fall apart in a tournement/sparring. Real fighting...he'd be toast. And for years...I watched the brain-numbing stupidity forced on him...thinking that at some point it might have some meat...or some flipping light was going to shine. Never happened. That dojo, and those forms, and that training was EMPTY.

I knew the minute I saw Goju...the difference. All one knows is what one is exposed to. I personally have NO doubt that the knowledge I've been exposed to in my current training of KATA could be very applicable in the street. Unlike the previous TKD training I witnessed, where forms are divorced from training for use, other styles/schools train kata as part of a continuum.

Could this old lady take on a street thug in his prime doing an arm bar from kata? Not likely at this stage...because just as important as hard punching, knowledge of the body/points of target, trained responses...is fitness and smarts.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 07:48 PM

I should reiterate that my point about "focus" is made to illustrate the point that this is JUST ONE aspect of kata training. I have mentioned others and I have also said that I'm not trying to be exhaustive.

The issue with focus is that it is apposite to this discussion. Is kata useful for street defence? Does it teach you anything? Clearly it is insufficient on its own. However it does have a role in building a part of your traditional technical skill base.

Here is another example of good kime in kata. Note the opening thrusts. Just clothing? I don't think so.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=B6PIIYB6wWQ

Here is a video of my older brother taken recently. He is demonstrating an isolated reverse punch.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=czvKqjufSJQ

Again, note his ability to "stop his punch dead". Yes, his uniform makes a bit of sound. This isn't the point of my post. It is an indicator; I can tell by the sound if there is good focus. And our uniforms are a thinner cotton - no starching.

Again - video yourself. Wear whatever clothing you like. If you are a sports combat practitioner with no proper karate/tma experience I'll be surprised if you can punch like this. You might say it is something you don't need - that it's just for show. I beg to differ. In the end stopping your blows with little or no deceleration is CRUCIAL to the equation "p = m x v" or "f = m x a".

JKogas' point on another thread was that he likes to spar with blows that are "heavy" but not "hard". In other words mass without the velocity. In other words, he decelerates the punch so as not to hurt his training partner. This is the reverse of that - little or no deceleration.

Why is this important? In a civilian defence art you aren't trying to "beat" your opponent or score a point. You are trying to defend yourself. Your counters are going to be conservative because you don't care about winning - you just care about not being hit. Since any attack/counterattack leaves an opening, civilian defence counters have to be conservative - they aim to minimise that opening. Accordingly arts like karate work on developing the straight thrust (with bare knuckles). The straight thrust is not inherently very powerful because you have less room to accelerate. Accordingly your efficiency has to be higher - in particular you have to minimise your decleration before impact.

As I've said, this same punching is used against the makiwara/striking post; move the post away and the punch looks the same. Move a bag away from a boxer and he'll very likely overbalance. This is because he partly uses the bag to stop the blow. The karateka works on stopping his own blow at a predetermined, focussed point (in much the same way as a Japanese swordsman cuts with his sword).

I hasten to add, my point here is to provide some information explaining why tma do certain things (like kata or other isolation practice) - NOT to denigrate combat sports which have been demonstrated to be effective.

Karate punches/techniques are different; they shouldn't be denigrated simply for that reason. It might not be how you like to do things, but you should at least be aware of WHY karateka/tma do things in their particular way. It isn't all just blind tradition. I certainly wouldn't be doing it if it was.
Posted by: skinters

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 08:57 PM

Quote:



Here is another example of good kime in kata. Note the opening thrusts. Just clothing? I don't think so.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=B6PIIYB6wWQ





dan

im going to sound like a conspiracy theorist but this time not only is it his clothing, but the super sensitive microphone hes using,you can hear birds chirping outside and also traffic on a nearby road.

are you trying to say his kime is disturbing the air in front of him and making a snapping sound?
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 10:13 PM

The kata video with the opening finger thrusts has a louder soundtrack - but I'm quite capable of judging the types of sounds relatively. It isn't the volume I take as an indicator, but the nature/quality. Yes, the video might have some boost to the mic for vanity, but I don't really care; the focus of the finger thrust video is clear to me.

In other words, I'm saying that the type of sound you make (yes - with your clothes) gives me just one point of reference as to whether it is focussed.

I use sound for reference since we karateka get used to hearing some sort of "whoosh" with our clothing. A focussed one does make a "crack" and not a "fzzz". One can tell instantly (especially when you've seen the good ones applied to hitting objects). The faster you stop your punch (less decleration) the more "whip-like" it becomes, the more "crack" your clothes make.

But you could turn the sound off and I'd still be able to tell by other points of reference! Ditto with Ed's kata performance or any of the other videos (my brother's reverse punch). I don't have sound on this computer - and they all still look focussed! Turn off the sound and try it yourself.

My brother's video of the reverse punch provides a better reference point for those who don't do karate: the soundtrack is not as loud and the clothes are not stiff/starched but it is still indicative of good focus. It was taken with my little 4 megapixel still photo camera (with a 60 second video function and a basic microphone).

This kind of punching is bread and butter stuff - hardly remarkable. Go to any good dojo and you'll see (and hear) good focus.

Here is another kata done by one of my seniors Gordon Foulis in 1985. He is wearing his provincial team uniform which is very lightweight (and has been rolled up at the sleeves). Have a close listen to his focus. He was (and is) amazing in his skill level (both in kata and in practical application). Having sparred with him I can attest to this personally.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jy-B4m04tbI

After all these years I still use this as a benchmark for kata performance (and I still can't match it).
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/30/08 10:55 PM

thanks, but the video was taken to just document the shape of that particular fairly rare basics kata. it was a new heavy shiredo gi, so it sounded like sandpaper. and it was in a large open dojo so the acoustics are magnified.

in my opinion, you can't really tell if someone can hit hard or not, until you see (or feel) them hit something other than air. someone could generate a hypersonic shock wave in air, but yet crumple when hitting a heavy bag. Which is not useful technique for anything but show.

which is why I believe that any type of MA needs impact training. you can't just come close to an opponent and suppose: "wow that looks like that would have hurt." and feel satisfied with the untested belief that the hit would have dropped the person. half the training is technique to get the strike to a general area target, the other half is the technique of hitting thru it without comprimizing balance or contigency positioning.
The only way to do that is if your structure doesn't crumple on impact...and the only way to learn that is with at least some form of impact training and/or some amount of heavy contact.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 12:41 AM

Quote:

If you want to do kata then do kata. If you get something out of doing kata then do kata. It can be beautiful as I've seen some very unique ones and it does have techniques it it. HOWEVER kata is not required for self defense and will only improve one's self defense if one feels it will; it is not necessary nor will it improve ones self defense.




Well, you are mostly right except that it will improve your self defense if you train it right. You seem to be stuck on the performance of kata alone as somehow able to improve self defense.

Quote:

There are more then likely more people more effective at self defense that don't do kata then those that do. Each have benefited so again, if you think it will benefit you then do it. Are there better ways to be more effective at self defense; for sure. We each learn things different ways and if kata is how you learn then continue to do so. I wonder however that many feel that kata is the way to go as that is what they were told and have trained for years but have not been in a quality system that does teach self defense that doesn't have it it in? Not saying the system they are in is not quality, I am saying that there are other systems out there that are better then others that don't have kata in them that would be as if not more beneficial.




More than likely?

Funny how all TKD people end up hating on kata all the time, lol. I can't blame them. If I had not fell into goju I would be the same way.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 12:44 AM

Quote:

I spent three years, when I studied Taekwondo, learning and practicing kata. I had no other choice considering it was the bulk of my training and what made or break your chances at being promoted to the next rank. Sparring received very little emphasis and the sparring we did do was light-contact and usually lasted for five minutes.





You think three years of TKD makes you an expert on kata? LOL. Let me guess, you learned about 6 or 7 'forms'.

I did tkd for 3 years before starting goju in 1991 and learning good kata training.

You just haven't got much foundation to stand on here.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 12:51 AM

Neko,

I like the way you train man! Let's you know your abilities and limitations, kata or no kata.

I'll bet you can attest to how training kata can teach good self defense.
Posted by: DeadlyKnuckles

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 01:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I spent three years, when I studied Taekwondo, learning and practicing kata. I had no other choice considering it was the bulk of my training and what made or break your chances at being promoted to the next rank. Sparring received very little emphasis and the sparring we did do was light-contact and usually lasted for five minutes.





You think three years of TKD makes you an expert on kata? LOL. Let me guess, you learned about 6 or 7 'forms'.



Thirteen.

And where did I state I was an expert on kata? Let alone an expert on anything? I was merely going on personal experience, regardless of how [censored] it was.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 01:54 AM

Derreck

Dude, not trying to hack you off....but please.....don't keep moving the goalposts on the topic.

First you were talking about "resitance" so I showed you SEVERAL common PROFESSIONAL SPORTS practices that require no real "resistance" at all----such as shooting free thows....which in any resonable view has little to nothing to do with "resistance"....ESP in the manner in which you first used it.........and you want to qubbile about the ball?????? Seriously??????

Besides, if you want to count the BALL as "resiatnce" than kata should at least be counted as providing some basic leg strength, some footwork or some cardio benefits.
Maybe not much but at least as much as the ahm...."resistance" provided by a basketball or golf ball.

Then you add "kata by itself"---whom exactly is saying that it should be done "by itself????"

Back in the day the old okinawan (and chinese--and just about everybody that did martial arts) had a pretty simple formula.

1-They strength trained
2-They hit stuff---heavy bags, makiwara etc
3-They did resitive 2 person drills
4-They sparred in some fashion
5-They practiced some form of grappling
6-They did kata

I fail to see the problem with such a training regimen--NOBODY seems to have been doing ONLY kata--besides, I presume that you have no problem with the other 5 things????
So why spend so much time whineing about 1 out of 6 practices?
Makes little sense to me........like your personal routine is so perfect that somebody couldn't find fault with SOMETHING you do?
Or somebody else wouldn't think some of it was a waste of time?

Another thing---how many martial artists do you know that are on a dedicated strength and cardio regimen?
They should be---yet how many are?

"like dance class"

You ever met a professional dancer---of the non-pole variety?
I'd give even odds on sheer toughness to the dancer over many "martial artists" that I know---and they are generally in better shape too.:)
I know a couple of ballerines that regularly endure more pain in their daily training than half the guys I played football with.

"Can the time be better spent"

I don't know---how do you know that whatever your doing NOW can't be better spent with somethign else?
How do you know that EVERYONE finds what you teach as useful as you do?....people are different and they get different results from the same thing.......if I had a dollar for every technique my HS wrestling coach taught me that didn't work as advertised....I'd be able to buy a new computer

"Boxers spend countless hours with sparring partners...suppliment this with heavy bags, focus mitts"

And that is way a serious martial artist should be training.......how some of them DO train.
Boxers shadow box....karate-ka etc do kata.....not such a difference....other than the kata tend to be more scipted.

Maybe the problem here is me......I just don't take kata that seriously....never trained that way.....it was ALWAYS just part of a training regimen that involved the stuff I mentioned earlier........maybe if you have seen something other than that the problem is less with kata and more with bascially sucky training in general.

Why blame "kata" when sucky training is probably more at fault.....if someone was teaching sloppy boxing or crappy grappling (crappeling ) you would not blame "boxing" or "grappling"...you would blame the poor teaching of said arts......probably the same with some of the more repellent kata problems........probably.

"I for one do not consider practing throws in Judo kata"

Ok, but for the record in many Japanese arts--both gendai and koryu "kata" refers to not just solo practice but to the 2 man resistive exercises as well.

Like I said, I don't think people should do any form or training that does not show gains FOR THEM......and that includes kata.
I personally find value in its practice--but I don't insist that EVERYONE should or is going to.
I don't think you should be doing kata in a vacuum...IMO it should be only a part of the regimen I posted above.

(Chojun Miyagi reportadly had an even more stark formula---as goes the story it was bascially "50% conditioning---(which ranged from weight training to all sorts of stuff)25% basics( again, a wide range of stuff) and 25% kata (which included bunkai))

Like I also said.......if you don't like kata...don't do it.....if someone is making you learn kata---or anything else you don't see value in.....quit.
If the training is otherwise valuable and useful to you....suck it up and do what you need to do to get the stuff you DO like.......just quite bellyaching about it.

Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 02:41 AM

Btw - I NEVER said one could learn to hit hard just by air punching.

While technique isolation is important in grooving more efficient technique, you have to hit things.

As far as Ed's, my brother's and other performer's technique, I can tell if they are focussing properly by looking at / hearing an air technique. That said, if they have never hit anything they won't have the proper technique for hitting hard and that will be evident - at least it is to me after 25 odd years of teaching.

None of those kata I posted were intended by their creators to show "supersonic booms" or "hard hitting". It is precisely because they are "just kata/basics" that I posted them.

We speak a different language it seems, so I was trying to be helpful and give the non-kata crowd some cues as to what kata can be used for.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 03:20 AM

Brian I agree with you completely.

There's kata and then there's kata.

I don't want to dump on tkd - I have a tkd mate who does excellent patterns/kata and is a credit to his system. But many schools of tkd have patterns that have been derailed by "sine wave" and other theoretical "enhancements".

Have a look at this kata and tell me that the unfortunate performer isn't wasting his valuable time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bwx-s2bU2Q

In this case the sine wave theory is dictating his form like a tail wagging a dog. The Napoleon Dynamite effect is evident for all to see.

I've been talking about focus. Compare the complete lack of focus above with any of the kata I've posted previously. And you could dress up the perfomer in one of Ed's sandpaper suits, sit him in an echoing hall, turn up the microphone to max and do whatever else you liked - there would be no difference.

I'm sure the practitioner is actually quite good. He certainly seems practised and is no doubt skilled in other ways. But the kata is, quite simply, a travesty. No doubt the performer will have Deadly Knuckles' view about kata/patterns in due course (if he hasn't already).

Not all kata practice is the same.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 08:16 AM

Hello Meibukan003:

Ahhhhhh yes the infamous "street situations"...
Fundamentally training is solely about efficency. Explored, investigated "response" with nuance/subtlety is very wonderful.

What specific techniques does your art teach you about "spirit", such that are "spiritual techniques"? What basic technique of kata deals specifically with your mental technique-powers?

Jeff
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 09:16 AM

Quote:

Like I also said.......if you don't like kata...don't do it.....if someone is making you learn kata---or anything else you don't see value in.....quit.
If the training is otherwise valuable and useful to you....suck it up and do what you need to do to get the stuff you DO like.......just quite bellyaching about it.




I don't do so all is good. Luckily the Muay Thai and BJJ I am currently in is all resistance training.

I also want to point out since you brought up "back in the day". Just because something was done years ago does not make it applicable today and it doesn't mean it was right to do. Chinese used to smash their heads thinking it would make it stronger. Gnarled hands which is just plain stupid.

As for the sucky training comment; perhaps those that put emphasis in kata is because their instructors do not put enough time into the student and it is easier to tell them to train on their own instead of training with them. That too many people buy into a lot of the older crap handed down over the years. Perhaps those people are disillusioned into believing they are doing something that will actually work. Two can play slinging games of people's training. And tell me why Karate people are on such high horses thinking their katas are better then say TKD patterns? I've seen good Katate people and good TKD people; I would never cut down one or the other but that sure is getting thrown around a lot on here. Perhaps those that took TKD and moved on to Karate just had crappy instruction or could not understand what was trained. I just think some need to get down off of their high horse.

Again this thread was about Kata in a street situation and I still stand by it; no place. As pointed out earlier it is about fighting and kata is not fighting it is kata.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 09:34 AM

Got a question for those that really have any experience fighting in a street situation...*crickets chirping*...

When anyone fights...do you ever 'see' the opening? And does this translate into 'kata' for the kata-doers?
Posted by: BulldogTKD

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 10:19 AM

Quote:

Got a question for those that really have any experience fighting in a street situation...*crickets chirping*...

When anyone fights...do you ever 'see' the opening? And does this translate into 'kata' for the kata-doers?




What do you mean "see the opening"? The opening move of a kata or the opening, meaning an entery?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 10:29 AM

Harlan, street fighting does not look pretty and does not look like any training. There are truly no victors in a street fight. I was stupid when younger; too stupid.

Though back then I did not know what I do know, I still stand by it will not look like a martial art fight; not like the movies. It would be two people slugging it out and the person who strikes first and is the most aggressive will probably win no matter what you know. Your chances are greater if you train correctly; strike first, strike hard, be the aggressor. There will be no set up like kata, there will be no touching gloves, there probably won't even be any squaring up. It will be fast and in your face and over in seconds.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 10:43 AM

Derreck

Glad your BJJ and your Muy Thai are working for you.......but you probably have seen people come and go from those schools---and you probably have seen people that can't hack the training and you probably have seen people that just are not very good.........there are no "magic bullets" in the martial arts......but their lack of skill/dedication/willingness to train hard and properly is NOT an indictment of BJJ and Muy Thai....and neither is people that don't train properly with kata--in its proper place and correctly an indictment of kata practice as a whole.

"Just becuase something was done "back in the day does not make it applicable today"

1st-That is a complete mis-statement of my point about training back in the day.

2-Strength training is no longer "applicaable" these days?

3-Sparring and 2 perseon resistant drills are no longer "applicable" these days?

Just because something is old does not make it useless----martial arts training is really pretty simple---extemely hard---but basic formula is pretty much the same....like I listed.

"Tell me why Karate people are on such high horses"

Well, I don't know what to say here Derrek:

I don't know ANY karate people of any degree of skill and expereince that are "on their high horses" about their kata---sure some folks may belive that what they are doing is better than the next guy--but that is just human nature.
I personally don't know anybody that thinks they are bad-asses because their kata is supposed to be better than other people....I certainly don't and I honestly know VERY few people that do.

But its interesting you bring up "high horses"---I've been around the martial arts for a long time and I can count on one hand---with fingers left over the number of time I have heard somebody telling ANYONE that they are missing out on an important method training because they DON'T do kata.
I do however regularly see the "anti-kata" crowd regularly mocking people that do kata.......mocking kata....telling anyone that will listen that the practice is worthless.....how stupid they are for doing kata......how THEY know far better than anybody else how best to train.......more than willing...eager even to forcefully give their opinion about OTHER peoples training.
I have never seen a kata proponent logging on to a forum to attack people they have never met, don't train with and have no clue about their personal skills----simply to bash their training and mock them from not doing kata.

However I see the anti-kata crowd doing it ALL THE TIME.
So just whom is REALLY up on their "high horses" here Derrek???????
Heres a hint...it ain't the kata people.;)

(And yes, I do hear kata people argueing bitterly over how kata is done---but that is a VERY different argument than/about doing kata at all.)

"this thread is about kata in a street situation"

And kata is a TRAINING TOOL---so it really has no DIRECT application in a "street situation" any more than the any other training you do.......when you bench press your developing strength that can be used in many ways----you don't lay down on the ground on your back and try to lift your opponent stight up in the air because that is "how" you train the bench press
You don't often do a kata in a street fight---you do however often do "parts" of a kata the knee kick, the "headbutt" (if you do it right) the eye rake etc from Seisan for example are pretty effective....ugly but effective.

Kata to me, at base, is just a tool box, my first karate teacher insisted that nearly eveything you did in kata should be able to be worked done the heavy bag---and that is how we trained.....those skills most certainly were very "applicable" in a fight.

We could argue all day if it was the bagwork or the kata that made it useful...I BTW would say the bagwork....however I'm pretty sure the solo reps helpled with muscle memory and the combinations.......like all training its really a "group" effort.
Posted by: skinters

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 11:18 AM

Quote:

Got a question for those that really have any experience fighting in a street situation...*crickets chirping*...

When anyone fights...do you ever 'see' the opening? And does this translate into 'kata' for the kata-doers?




shhhh,im not sure you are aloud to talk about actual real fight experience

to be honest and i know its off topic but to me 90% that we cherish falls to peices when its real,im not saying the person falls to peices,but its so removed from the dojo it aint funny.seeing the opening ?well if you can get past your legs turning to jelly, and the utter chaos,panic,your mind is going through ...sometimes.

as for kata ,well the jury gonna be out a long time i rekon,i really cannot see what it teaches you or how it is applied.on one hand you have all that control and all the time needed for that perfect movement,and the other that adrenalin filled survival, panic filled nightmare that is real fighting.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 11:27 AM

CTX stated - Back in the day the old okinawan (and chinese--and just about everybody that did martial arts) had a pretty simple formula.

1-They strength trained
2-They hit stuff---heavy bags, makiwara etc
3-They did resitive 2 person drills
4-They sparred in some fashion
5-They practiced some form of grappling
6-They did kata

(Chojun Miyagi reportadly had an even more stark formula---as goes the story it was bascially "50% conditioning---(which ranged from weight training to all sorts of stuff)25% basics( again, a wide range of stuff) and 25% kata (which included bunkai))

I agree totally!!
=======================================================

BS I agree with you also that doing a Kata and knowing what you are doing are two different things. And so I also agree with non Kata exponents that just doing Kata won't prepare you for street fighting or fighting. It wasn't intend to do that.

But if you include it in part of your training my experience showed me that it helps, even though you have to alter the application slightly for each situation. One of the advantages that I had is that I had street fighting experineces, I wreslted high school and college, I boxed all the time, did a little judo, studied TSD and then Trained in Goju among other systems along the way. So when sparring I knew what they were trying to do and the counters all I had to do was apply the correct unsuspected technique to counter. So in a way I cheated or had an advantage they didn't know that I was going to elbow them in the face grab their throat & groin and twist, sweep/throw them and stomp them just like in many of the Goju-ryu katas. One of my favorite techniques to do, I'll give a shot to get that one in. Something kata/point kumite doesn't teach is it sometimes is give and take.

There's all different ways to skin a Cat, Kata and all that goes with it can do it from head to its toes. It is only one way of many.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 12:34 PM

Cxt, it is spelled D E R E C K!

I most certainly am not on a high horse. I have said over and over that there are those that will get something from Kata. Kata can be a tool to supplement a program but on its own it is nothing. You DON'T need kata to be effective at fighting. I still believe, my belief, that if you want to learn to fight then fight. Whether initiating or defending it is fighting. The more in your face with your training you can be with resistance and different people then the better. I have always found that you have to jump into things. If you want to learn how to drive a car then get into the car and drive, don't pretend you are driving.

And again I have said that I see the techniques in the katas and I understand them, I just feel that I would sooner train those techniques in a more effective manner. I like what somebody said earlier, their kata was better because they learned to fight first so that the techniques there were doing made more sense. Their fighting wasn't better because of the kata their kata was better because of their fighting.
Posted by: everyone

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 12:36 PM

It looks like there's a pattern forming on who values kata/forms... Goju and kung fu practitioners think they are very usefull; MT, boxers, kick-boxers, BJJ people don't value them and with TKD it's mixed. It would appear that their value/usefullness is mostly style spacific. The complexity of the style seems to coincide with the use of kata's.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 01:21 PM

I think you may be on to something arts like Silat see forms/dance/Kata as actual techniques once you understand whats going on. So you may have a point complexity of the system may play a part. And not mainly being trained to lace em up may have some bearing on each experiences.


Skinter stated - and the other that adrenalin filled survival, panic filled nightmare that is real fighting.


Like anything you do often enough you can channel your fear into AD rush and because of your experience and training it becomes confidence. But not over confidence, more like I can't wait for him to flinch, or sneez, cough or get in range!! The minds a powerful thing once you felt this you can practice this in your Katas or Shadow boxing.
Posted by: skinters

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 10/31/08 07:38 PM

Quote:

It looks like there's a pattern forming on who values kata/forms... Goju and kung fu practitioners think they are very usefull; MT, boxers, kick-boxers, BJJ people don't value them and with TKD it's mixed. It would appear that their value/usefullness is mostly style spacific. The complexity of the style seems to coincide with the use of kata's.




well from the age of 9 until 13 i did my own thing training in my bedroom when all my freinds were playing in the street, and id be sweating my uneducated ass,not knowing what i was doing, but striking all sorts of hanging pads and swinging things ...alright i rambling ..but from 13 to 20 i was into that kickboxing thing that everyone was into and got a lot out of it,after that i go through periods of no training but thinking a lot about fighting and getting involved in a lot of it growing up on a rough way.again i ramble ...these days i practice wingchun and with my unorganised street ways,more organised kickboxing days and now wingchun ,i mean god ,,..my wingchun training has made a huge diff and brought it all tighter and more clear .,

what im trying to say is it dont matter ...kata this style that style ...i love this site got some good info and laffs but when it kicks off....its all useless and hot air.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 11/01/08 01:18 AM

Dereck

Sorry, I both type and often spell poorly...no offense meant....its why I use just cxt myself.


"You don't need kata to be more effective at fighting"

I don't think so either...I have found its practice to be helpful to me....but I DON'T see it as a "must have" for training to be effective.

I tend to agree that to really learn you really have to do....except that with pretty much everything---you have to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run....when you learn how to drive for example they don't just have you jump behind the whel and start to drive....there is a is a fair amount of study you have to do, rules you have to learn and things you have to know first...THEN you start to practice driving.

I'm all for effective....I just have a slightly different POV about what "effective" can be.....not "better" or "worse" just "different."
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 11/03/08 01:54 AM

I go away for a few days & this thread explodes!

Quote:

Kata can be a tool to supplement a program but on its own it is nothing.



I believe cxt addressed this..but his bench press comparison was pretty on point. Would you say strength training is street applicable? You're comparing 2 different things. Strength training HELPs but is it necessary? No.

Would you argue about the street application of weight lifting with other martial artists that strength train? probably not because its just an addition to your training that helps you, not a street application itself.

Same with kata, its just another tool to help you train. Its not a street application itself. Applications should be trained starting with very little or no resistance with the resistance level progressively increasing as the person becomes better & better.

Quote:

You DON'T need kata to be effective at fighting.



sure you don't, theres people in this world to prove it. A lot of people dont need a lot of things to be effective at fighting. Some people don't even need martial arts or fighting experience to be effective, they just need the guts to hit you & they probably would still win.

Quote:

I still believe, my belief, that if you want to learn to fight then fight. Whether initiating or defending it is fighting. The more in your face with your training you can be with resistance and different people then the better. I have always found that you have to jump into things. If you want to learn how to drive a car then get into the car and drive, don't pretend you are driving.



so if you didnt know how to swim would you jump into the ocean to learn?

everything builds up as a tool/exercise to better themselves. I teach you how to punch, which is pretty important if you want to fight, and tell you to practice punching. To get the form down so that you can maximize the force generated & transmitted from your body to your opponent. How is that a waste of time? I'm sure boxers/kickboxers hit dead inanimate objects (or the air) all the time & are corrected all the time for having bad form. They arent in the ring fighting all the time in their training. Yes sparring counts big time but without all the other little things (strength training & perfecting techniques) sparring won't even happen.

strength & conditioning, improving technique (which I feel kata falls into) and sparring is probably what most people do, which I would hope includes you.


Quote:

And again I have said that I see the techniques in the katas and I understand them, I just feel that I would sooner train those techniques in a more effective manner.



how can you get to the advance before you cover the basics? there has to be some kind of boring or dead training involving technique somewhere along the line. if you don't work on technique how can you fight "effectively"??

Quote:

I like what somebody said earlier, their kata was better because they learned to fight first so that the techniques there were doing made more sense. Their fighting wasn't better because of the kata their kata was better because of their fighting.



that could be for one case or a few cases, which I assume would include yourself & thats fine. Theres also people who understand them without having to fight too much. Not everyone can understand it at the same speed or level, otherwise we'd all be grandmasters.

My training is split between health & self defense and I've never gotten into a fight. But doing forms and practice sets helps my overall technique improve. After I can cover these basic movements they become easier & easier to do. So when I'm working on applications they're almost second nature to me. This is just my own personal experience, not speaking for anybody else.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 11/03/08 01:57 AM

Fact is, most people will NEVER have to use their martial arts to defend themselves. So in that case, I hope you are doing it for more than just your take on 'effectiveness'.
Posted by: GriffyGriff

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 11/04/08 03:55 AM

If you are lucky enough to have an Enshin Karate School near you, go and look at their Katas. Even the beginning White Belt Kata is very effective in street situations.

Seriously.. go do it.. and then repost please.
Posted by: IExcalibui2

Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations - 11/04/08 09:12 AM

I'm not even denying that, I said it myself. I also enjoy practicing & just read & discussing. But thats a diff topic no?