Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate

Posted by: BrianS

Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/02/08 06:12 AM

http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_5zhqn

Anyone have any information on this style?
Posted by: cxt

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/02/08 09:54 AM

Brian S

No clue, just off the top of my head the guy seems to be mixing his languges a bit.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/03/08 03:16 AM

I thought that too, seems weird. But, I'm the curious type and I like to see what other people are doing. I might go have a look-see.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/06/08 01:39 PM

Sheesh! CXT's being polite. They could be really great technicians, but my bet? TKD wrapped up with a few other things and sold as something different to sound more attractive and official-like to the non-MA going public fishing for a close by school for their kids.

Korean sounding first part of the name, then add Chinese and Karate and you not only are you left scratching your head, you are left wondering what the hell is it? Like I said, could be good. But sometimes calling a daisy a rose does not smell as sweet.

If you take a look see, let us know what you find out.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/15/08 08:26 AM

Hey, Brad, if you ever get tired of Ashihara, there's a thought for ya: Guru Butterfly's School of Hoso Maki Muay Korean Kung Fu!
Posted by: Togihill

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/15/08 03:43 PM

I am wanting to change my 8 year old son to a karate school closer to home and the Mong Su Dom Tai studios are pretty popular around here. They started in Neosho, Missouri a few years ago and have spread like fire and pretty much dot the map for about a 50 mile radius.

I took my son for his free class the other day and I really liked the look. Of course how much can you see in 1 class period? It was a private lesson. Anyway, afterward I asked the instructor about the origins of the style and he said the history was posted on the wall. I didn't take time to go read it but I will next time I go. I asked what style it could be compared to and he said, "Nothing really, but if you just HAD to compare, similar to the Chinese Kenpo styles."

I asked him about the words being both Chinese and Korean and he said they were Chinese. I have my doubts since in this thread something different is said, but anyway, I liked the looks of what he was showing my son. Some pretty cool techniques better than what I was seeing after 2 and a half years taking him to study Okinawa at Joplin Karate in Joplin, MO.

One thing I like is the private lesson. You pay $100 a month and get 1 30 minute private lesson and 1 group lesson each week. The whole family can go for one price---$100 a month.

Another thing I liked, at the dojo I was taking my son to, he would have had to reach 11 years old to learn weapons. They said within about 2 months he will be working with weapons here. My son is fanatical about weapons so I think this style will appeal to him for that reason and maybe he will study harder.

I will look at the posted history they have on the wall and let you know more later.

Any advice from anyone?
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/16/08 11:11 AM

Caution.

Clue #1: Schools "spread like fire". Those of us who've been involved in MA for a while can attest that a quality school/organization takes a while to grow. Ask yourself why there aren't more 5-star generals around. What would you think of a military w/ 200 5-stars?

Clue #2: Could be compared to "nothing really". He wants you to believe that his style is SO unique but in reality if you knew the background of the originator, you'd probably see a little of this & a little of that. I don't like MA-stew.

Clue #3: The words are a mix & he's just repeating the party line. Funny he couldn't explain the lineage & just referred you to read the wall.

Clue #4: I have no idea what "pretty cool techniques" look like. I know that the most effective techniques are your "bread-&-butter" skills that are basic - not fancy & cool-looking. That cool movie stuff is just that - fantasy on parade. Real MA is often boring until you realize what you're actually doing.

Clue #5: Within 2 months, your son will be working w/ weapons. Obviously not real weapons or real techniques. How could he? He doesn't have a grasp of basic body mechanics. This POV doesn't apply to the Filipino MA or kendo because those are weapon systems - my point is aimed @ non-weapons bases systems. This is just another way of hooking you & your son in, playing to his fantasies & your pleasure of seeing your son happy.
Posted by: Uchinanchu

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/17/08 03:15 AM

Sounds like another glorified child day care center, to me. If you and your kid are happy with what the instructor is offering, however, by all means let him (your son) have his fun. Just keep in mind though, that you do not paint a horse with stripes and call it a...unicorn. And, you almost always get what you pay for, right?!
Posted by: ss1

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 01/19/09 02:49 PM

I have been doing MSDT for a little over 4 years now. I do not have any previous MA experience, but it has been very educational and helped me in more ways than just self defense.

It looks like many people have jumped to a derogatory conclusion based on little more than the name of the school. We have many students that transferred from other arts and stayed around. Yes, it is a new art so there are not many schools yet.

BrianS/Togihill - There is a special program for young children to help get them started, and the free group classes also include sparring. Each belt builds upon the previous so techniques that you are seeing at the introduction level will constantly be refined and tweaked as the student progresses in their knowledge and abilities. If you don't like it after your free lesson then you are not obligated. Otherwise, good luck with your lessons!
Posted by: dvanren

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 03/18/09 04:21 AM

I studied Mong Su Dom Tai several years ago and worked my way to Purple belt before getting distracted with other activities.

Mong/Hmong = people living in S China for the last 2,000+ years, also now in Laos, Thailand, etc...
Su = technique or skill
Dom = not sure/don't remember this word- could be spelling variation
Tai = highest

From what I recall, it is an ancient Chinese Hmong style, but new to the USA. It was brought to the US by the people who started the Mong Su Dom Tai studio in Joplin Missouri, and former students opened studios in Neosho and NW Arkansas (where I studied). There is nothing written on this tradition... which fits with the Hmong people who are very private. It was passed from elder to younger family members through direct instruction. It is both non-weapons and weapons-based. My experience was excellent- I wish I had stuck with it.

My young nephews also studied, ages 4 - 12... they had separate classes that were age-appropriate, and if i remember correctly, their belt rankings were modified as well. By "spread like fire," I believe the poster simply meant that the studio, which has been in the same location for at least 14 years, has become popular in town because of its reputation for quality instruction and affordable training opportunities. Former students from here and Missouri have gone on to open their own studios, thus it is growing. From my experience, Mong Su Dom Tai is not full of know-it-alls and show-offs like I've seen come out of other martial arts facilities... there is honor and humility in the learning and teaching. I trained under and know the owner the gentleman is referring to, and I can vouch for him. He didn't say he COULDN'T explain the lineage, he simply didn't at that time. He certainly did when I started my training. He always shared the meaning of the names of the kadas and moves as well and expected us to memorize them all.

Before criticizing something, perhaps its best to have some solid first-hand information.
Posted by: Togihill

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/24/09 08:32 AM

I am really glad to see the postings by SS1 and dvanren. My son has now been in MSDT for 7 months and I cannot say enough good things about it. I did exaggerate when I said the schools spread like wildfire. There are probably 8?? in the area and they are popular because of their reputation. The people who run the school are excellent people and the style if “for real” not a glorified day care.

Also, as to how my son could be possibly ready for weapons in 2 months, he attended classes in Joplin, MO at Joplin Karate for 2 years and was just about ready for his orange belt so he did have previous experience. And, it turned out it was about 4 months before he got his first weapon and it was a UR stick that he basically gripped in his hand during his kata.

Anyway, I wish I hadn't wasted those 2 years at Joplin karate because he has learned so much more at MSDT. The lessons are private and group both and the instructor starts and finished ON TIME which is so much better than our previous experience in Joplin. The instructor shows in each kata what each move is meant for, again better than the previous experience. He will play the part of the opponent as the student does his kata, blocking attacking.

I can see a huge difference in my son's ability. When I put a hold on him now, he actually can get out of it. He can learn more in 1 month here than he learned at Joplin Karate in 6 months. Anyway, I think people should check it out if they have MSDT in their area. You may find you were a little too quick to jump to conclusions.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/24/09 03:17 PM

I drive by the one on 71hwy(thompson) in springdale just about every day. They now have a big sign out front, 'Come make your child a golden dragon!! 4-7yr old classes', paraphrased.
Now, I have a 5 and a 7yr old. Hannah,5,does dance and I see how limited she and her classmates have to be because of their coordination abilities. It's fun for her and very cute. My son does judo and baseball, he's getting good at both, but there's no way he could break a hold I put on him,it's just not physically possible.
Being a good time and martially productive are two very different things, but I'm not against the golden dragons or MSDC karate at all.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/24/09 09:47 PM

This is what I think.

If a practitioner is young, there's no reason for them to understand. They're only there to have fun, so I wouldn't really trust any teacher that tries to teach them to understand kata. Let them do that later when they're older.

~Donnie out
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/26/09 03:40 PM

This is what I was thinking.

3 Newbies on the board (A good thing)

All supporting a "New Style" (Not a BAD thing, but could be questionable)

Not alot of info on the art itself (This IS questionable)

Maybe enlightening us as to the actual history of the art (if possible) as so we don't jump to conclusions. If there is no history other than whats "Posted on the wall", maybe it is what some think it maybe.

VDJ

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/26/09 04:02 PM

Hmmm,

The plot thickens. After doing an engine search about this styles history, other than what BrianS has above, this is the only thing I came across (that was in english, somethings were showing up in what I beleieve is Vietnamese).

http://www.karateforums.com/mong-su-dom-tai-chinese-karate-vt2562.html

VDJ
Posted by: shiva

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/29/09 06:01 PM

Respected members,

I have the honor of being a SIFU (teacher) in MSDT and hold a 2nd degree black belt. I continue to advance personally, and hope to be tested for 3rd degree bb later this year. The system was invented by Charles and Helen Jennings, who were quite famous back in the late 60's and 70's in known circles. They were featured in Black Belt magazine numerous times in that era.

The system incorporates many techniques from many systems, but is mainly derived from Kenpo, Shaolin Kung Fu, Savate, and street fighting. Charles Jennings was a formidable fighter who honed his skills in the street and in the Coast Guard, back when west coast CG responsibilites included drug interdiction almost daily. Unfortunately, he passed away 7-8 years ago, but Helen survives and is SIJO (founder) and oversees the system with her sons, including Charles Jr. who is a 10th degree bb, Grand Sigung (teacher of teachers).

We incorporate virtually all known Chinese weapons, from simple uwara sticks to double-headed spears and swords in the advanced levels. We also incorporate weapons and techniques from other systems deemed to be effective and appropriate for inclusion.

We are a soft-hard Chinese style system, but information is only passed down to our students, not the media or casual inquiries. Special programs available to bb's and above include Soft-Hand, Chin-Na, Dynamics, Internals, Iron Palm, and many others, including specialized programs for specific weapons.

MONG SU DOM TAI = "The inherent prowess of a wild beast", rough translation.

Appreciate the interest in our studios, and if you are ever in the SW Missouri area, please stop in for a free lesson. Leave your egos at the edge of the mat, please. ;>)
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/30/09 08:19 PM



Somethings just don't jive with me here. After doing searches on YAHOO, GOOGLE & ASK regarding either the style, the "Founders' mentioned above or a combination there of, nothing comes up. The closest I came was the thread in which we are now in the middle of, the site that BrianS has in the first post and the link to the forum that I came across. I have found absolutely nothing on the names of the "founders" or the styles history. The other thing I find odd is Shiva first posts this:

"The system incorporates many techniques from many systems, but is mainly derived from Kenpo, Shaolin Kung Fu, Savate, and street fighting."

and then it is followed up with this:

"We are a soft-hard Chinese style system, but information is only passed down to our students, not the media or casual inquiries."

So which is it, a sort of MMA with the first styles mentioned or is it a Chinese style? and if its a Chinese style, how could it have been founded by 2 Americans ? Of course I do enjoy how the members of the forum get the invitation for a "Free lesson" and 2 "Check our ego's at the edge of the mat" (btw Shiva, they're not really any ego's here, knowledgable martial artists yes, but very humble indeed), yet information to the style is only passed onto students (is that before or after the contract has been signed I wonder). I for one would not consider training at a place that would not want to share information with me as I was inquiring about what it is that's being taught and I would have to pay for. I don't want to judge something that I don't know anything about, but I will indeed judge something that I take the time to try and learn about and cannot find anything out about it, especially in this day and age with super information highway so readily at my fingertips. Can any of the practioners that have posted here direct to ANYTHING that gives a more in depth explanation of the art?

VDJ
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/30/09 09:10 PM

Quote:

including Charles Jr. who is a 10th degree bb, Grand Sigung (teacher of teachers).




Hmmmmm. Absolutely no info about the system anywhere on the net, and GRAND SIGUNGs!

I think we have pegged the BS-o-meter.
Posted by: shiva

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/01/09 05:11 PM

Hmmmm...

Well, I debated about posting in this forum at all, after reviewing the general attitude of responses I had seen so far, but thought that your members might actually like a more accurate explanation than had been offered previously. Apparently no good deed goes unpunished...

ALL systems were originally founded by SOMEBODY, who then trained their families and awarded rank and advancement according to their proficiency. But apparently that isn't allowed if the founders aren't asian.

If you don't live in our local area, then you are not going to be interested in the system, and we don't sell our knowledge via DVD, VHS, or "mail-order seminars"... so why expend so much energy bashing something you've never even experienced?

And heaven forbid that some meaningful information exists that you can't instantly get a full DVD or other BS type of materials directly from the internet about.

The offer to educate any interested parties is still gladly extended, but none of us will bother with this forum again. I didn't realize we were so obviously backward, ignorant, and ineffective... gosh, I feel so bad about my years of training now. OH BROTHER...

Small, insecure minds...
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/01/09 10:42 PM

Quote:

Hmmmm...

Well, I debated about posting in this forum at all, after reviewing the general attitude of responses I had seen so far, but thought that your members might actually like a more accurate explanation than had been offered previously. Apparently no good deed goes unpunished...

ALL systems were originally founded by SOMEBODY, who then trained their families and awarded rank and advancement according to their proficiency. But apparently that isn't allowed if the founders aren't asian.

If you don't live in our local area, then you are not going to be interested in the system, and we don't sell our knowledge via DVD, VHS, or "mail-order seminars"... so why expend so much energy bashing something you've never even experienced?

And heaven forbid that some meaningful information exists that you can't instantly get a full DVD or other BS type of materials directly from the internet about.

The offer to educate any interested parties is still gladly extended, but none of us will bother with this forum again. I didn't realize we were so obviously backward, ignorant, and ineffective... gosh, I feel so bad about my years of training now. OH BROTHER...

Small, insecure minds...




Typical ! I wasn't looking for a DVD, VHS or a mail order seminar! I am looking for actual HISTORY and information about an art and there is none! A "small, insecure mind" would not do that! However, not offering up some REAL HISTORY, IS insecure. Yes, all systems are/have been founded by somebody and passed on, and no body said they had to be Asian ! The problem with what you posted is that YOU said that it was a mixture of Kenpo (Japanese), Kung Fu (Chinese), Savate (French) and Street fighting (pick any nation)! THEN you said it was a soft/hard Chinese style founded by 2 AMERICANS ! HOW CAN 2 AMERICAN DEVELOPE A CHINESE STYLE????? How can it be a Chinese style when you have mixed in other arts from other originating nations? You (or your members) not posting here anymore will be of no great loss, but you will be lurking looking to see what was posted because thats something else inscure people do. HIDE !

VDJ
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/02/09 08:43 AM

Quote:

Hey, Brad, if you ever get tired of Ashihara, there's a thought for ya: Guru Butterfly's School of Hoso Maki Muay Korean Kung Fu!



Does that come with egg roll?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/02/09 09:18 AM

Shiva -

I don't want to come across as being snide to you, personally. I think you made a reasonable effort to explain the style. The problem is that text explanations are very vague. In this day and age, it is more meaningful to have some visual means of showing the style.

Your style has schools that teach publicly, yes? And they probably charge money, yes? This means that there is no reason to be secretive about showing the style, or putting more info out about it. This is the schism that many on this forum note about it - why would a public martial art NOT want to further it's reach and understanding with the general public (it's intended audience)?

What we have found here on this forum, over time, is that styles that seek to expand, but *DO NOT* wish to show what they have, are generally seeking to cover technical deficiencies that more experienced martial artists would readily pick up.

Thus our skepticism.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/03/09 03:07 AM

Shiva,

I still may stop by someday when time and interest permits. Not everyone has been overly critical of your style here,so lighten up.
Posted by: imperial_crane

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/03/09 10:39 AM

Hi Togihill,

You said, "I can see a huge difference in my son's ability. When I put a hold on him now, he actually can get out of it. He can learn more in 1 month here than he learned at Joplin Karate in 6 months." Is that true because your son already had 2 years experience? Maybe his karate training helped him at his new school? Ingrained "muscle memory" assists him at the new art he is taking?

Possible?

Thanks,

Paul
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/03/09 10:45 AM

Quote:

Shiva,

I still may stop by someday when time and interest permits. Not everyone has been overly critical of your style here,so lighten up.




Not that your post is referring to me (maybe it is), but I'm not being critical as much as curious. I just find some of the things posted to its origin and history as odd and thought they would like to give us a more clear picture of it.

VDJ
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/04/09 09:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Shiva,

I still may stop by someday when time and interest permits. Not everyone has been overly critical of your style here,so lighten up.




Not that your post is referring to me (maybe it is), but I'm not being critical as much as curious. I just find some of the things posted to its origin and history as odd and thought they would like to give us a more clear picture of it.

VDJ




No, I was just speaking in general.
Posted by: SneakyNinja

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/25/10 11:12 PM

First off this is the first time I've ever posted anything on a thread like this so if I break any taboo's please accept my humblest apologies. In regards to Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate I may be able to clear a few things up. First let me present my credentials, I earned my black belt from Mong Su Dom Tai on October 18th 2008. I was going to college at the same time so it took me 8 years, which is longer than average (5 years) to get my black belt. The style was created out in California in the 70's and was so named by the Chinese community out there. Back in those days you had to test for about 5 days before you got your black belt. The name roughly means The Way of the Animal or The Heart of the Animal. There is no clear english translation. As far as the style goes it is about 70 percent original moves and the remaining is heavily influenced by the French kicking style Savat (don't know if I spelled that right) and Krav Maga, Isreali hand to hand combat. Mong Su Dom Tai, which I will now reference as MSDT is not and should never be compared to MMA. It is a self defense art and teaches a person how to judge a person and a situation and how to deal with them accordingly. We only just started teaching young kids a couple of years ago and no, its no glorified daycare, if you want that you should take your kid to Taekwondo, which is a sport. MSDT teaches a person how to connect basic moves into a technique and how to connect techniques into a string of movements in case of a mass attack. We also train in weapons, how to defend against someone who attacks you with a melee weapon, or a knife or a gun. Most people don't make it very far in MSDT because they can't appreciate the level of violence required in a true self defense art. And by appreciate I don't mean enjoy it, I simply mean their brains cannot fathom breaking a man's arm and then maiming it if he threatens one's family. Not eveyone is meant to be a warrior. Even if you only go for a couple years it will vastly increase your self confidence and your self awareness as well as increase your situational awareness. Many times I'll just talk with my instructor and discuss certain philosophies about fighting and life. There are also many programs offered to further the depth of knowledge. I hope this little nugget of info has enlightened you smile If you have any questions feel free post back. I'll try and check back soon.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/26/10 01:45 AM

This whole topic is confusing...

First it was 'street fighting' now Krav Maga as well?

First it's a karate style, now it's a SD style?

It was founded by Hmongs who brought it to Joplin, then two americans, now its named by Chinese community?

Why is there no 'clear' english translation? I used to work as a translator for Thai, Swedish, English, and not once have I been unable to not clearly translate anything.

Does it mean Mong Skill not sure Highest or Way of the animal?
If it's way of the animal then it should end with 'Dao' if it's in Mandarin which it doesn't. So what language is it in? Hmong? I can call up some people in Chiangmai who are Hmong.

I see 3 posters with information that contradicts itself I'm confused. I wonder how you guys get it straight.

First it's based on shaolin kempo like Iron Palm and Chin-Na, now it's 70% own techniques? I'm confused mate.

-Donnie out
Posted by: BAberger

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/26/10 04:05 AM

I trained at MSDT from the ages of 7 or 8 until i EARNED my black belt and attaining the rank of sifu at the age of 15. And yes they make you earn a black belt, especially being as young as I was. And the sifu test is a lengthy SOB believe me i still remember sweating that bad-boy out. Since then I have studied many arts ranging from muay thai to kickboxing to judo (also wrestling in high school and earning 2 team state championships). Trying to quench a thirst of knowledge, needless to say I still study today, sorry not MSDT. MSDT is the real deal though. I'm not disrespecting any other art but i practice my kata and technique i learned as a child growing up more than any other art form I have studied. All the arts had their own advantages and disadvantages. But if you are looking for an all-around self defense program that is proven effective and simple to learn, without feeling like your in military training, Not to mention the katas are visually attractive and for the most part practical in every day life. I wouldn't say one art is better than the other, but I'm proud to say that MSDT made me into the martial artist I am today. Yes the knowledge I have taken in over the years has tweaked my style and technique somewhat. But nothing I have studied to date has affected my thought process, ability, or fluidity of motion like MSDT (I'll let you know when I find it). Not to mention extensive weapons training, both defending against armed or bare-handed, and attacking with. I would still study to this day had I not moved to Tulsa, OK. Guarantee when they make it out here I will pick up where I left off knowing that the art has so much more to offer and that i could incorporate the knowledge i have picked up from other arts into what I am being taught. I suggest that if you are interested in practicing martial arts that you give MSDT a try knowing that you will be satisfied. OVERALL I FEEL IT IS BEST TO HAVE A GOOD TO GREAT UNDERSTANDING OF MANY ART FORMS TO BRING OUT YOUR FULL POTENTIAL AS A MARTIAL ARTIST.

P.S. I'm suprised how quickly people put something down based on interpretations of a language that has so many dialects. You know the saying "Never judge a book by its cover" ? This would be one of those moments. Anyone who doubts MSDT should go in a studio and express to the sifu your doubts about the art. They might turn you into a believer like my father, I, and so many others.


-A MARTIAL ARTIST WHOSE OPINION SHOULD BE HEARD-
Posted by: Cord

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/26/10 06:59 AM

Originally Posted By: BAberger
I'm suprised how quickly people put something down based on interpretations of a language that has so many dialects. You know the saying "Never judge a book by its cover" ? This would be one of those moments. Anyone who doubts MSDT should go in a studio and express to the sifu your doubts about the art. They might turn you into a believer like my father, I, and so many others


Its not just a doubt based on translation or linguistic vagueries. So far 3 highly ranked members of the school have posted in its defence, but in so doing, posted 3 different versions not only of its lineage, but of what it actually teaches.
Perhaps, as a sifu in the art yourself, you could clear all this up by giving us a definitive and accurate statement on the following:

1. Who defined it as an art and when
2. What the lineage of the syllabus is (definitive mix of arts it draws from)
3. Either a clear and precise translation of the name, or details of which chinese dialect it draws from, so that others on here may do it for themselves.

As holder of the title 'teacher' in the art, I am confident you can clear these issues up quickly, and in so doing, do a great service to an art you clearly have high regard for.
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 05/26/10 08:53 AM

"Mong Su Dom Tai, which I will now reference as MSDT is not and should never be compared to MMA. It is a self defense art and teaches a person how to judge a person and a situation and how to deal with them accordingly."

You are affiliating the abbreviation of MMA to the sport aspect of the UFC. MMA, Mixed Martial Art, just a combination of different arts, as is what you're defining yours as.


"We only just started teaching young kids a couple of years ago and no, its no glorified daycare, if you want that you should take your kid to Taekwondo, which is a sport."

Wrong ! Does TKD have a sporting aspect, absolutely, is it a viable self defense system, absolutely! Battlefield proven in Vietnam. The Viet Cong were terrified to come across S. Korean members of the "White Horse Division", an elite fighting brigade that were tenacious in their hand to hand combat.

In agreeing with Taison and Cords recent posts, there is a mish mash of definitions of what the history of this art is! The arts that you refer to (Kenpo, Krav Maga, Savate, Shao Lin) ALL have a long history, yet those of us who did searches on this found nothing. I also find it funny that a thread that was started 2 years ago and seems to have its practioners concentrated in Missouri (who BTW said they would not post on the board again) finds its way to the front of the site to be defended again.

VDJ
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/03/10 05:26 AM

When I posted about this I was unaware it was such a controversial topic,lol.

I have yet to visit their studio here and don't plan on doing so either. I think it has too much drama associated with it and not so much what I would be interested in.

From what I've read MSDT = weird we don't know where it came from or what it says super bad ass-kicking art that many people just can't handle and we need to speak up, but maybe get a little organized first art. wink
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 06/03/10 09:01 AM

The only thing missing is the no-touch knock out!
Posted by: Natural1

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/02/10 05:20 PM

Ok, I debated on whether or not to post but I decided to go ahead and clarify a few things just so as not to have any misunderstandings. I have been practicing MSDT for 17 years now and have the ranking of Master. (not to brag but just to let you know that I know what I'm talking about regarding the system)
I thought that the other members on this forum who have a bb in the system did a very good job of explaining to everyone the general basics of the origin. Remember that origins and history are not just what you read in a history book or on the internet but are based on people's everyday lives. (also based on the listeners understanding and interpretation of the story they are hearing) So you are not going to ever know every detail of a founders past. Also it should be said that a martial art system is not in it's history or it's famous background but in it's effectiveness and it's correctness of function. The whole idea of martial arts is to be able to do the best possible action in a situation where defensive or offensive actions are called for.
And concerning styles it is more a broad matter of hard or soft, circular or angular, and whether the system is based on the beauty and style or the actual fighting techniques. (or both) Using those broad perspectives as a measuring stick the system would most comparatively be described as a Chinese style. Which is why it is considered to be a "Kung Fu" style. It is a mixture of many styles taking the best of all into account and coming up with something that is truly amazing and tested useful at the same time. But since it was approved an endorsed by the Chinese martial arts community in California at it's beginnings, it is considered and named with a "Chinese" name.
Now concerning the idea of "not knowing" something about the art or not being able to find out about it on the internet, let me ask you this. If you were going to take a college course, would you expect to be able to get your degree just by reading about the college on the internet or would you be required to pay your tuition, go to class, take your tests and then receive your degree? At which time you would be said to "know" your field of study. You wouldn't try to explain neural surgery to a seventh grade biology student. Nor would your give away the procedures and techniques. (that's why medical school is not free) All martial arts will only give you more advanced information as you advance in rank. And it is obviously up to you as to whether you believe that the information is useful or not. (and whether you want to go out and try it) And after studying and understanding this system for many years I fully believe that it is the best system in existence. (my opinion)
And as to the name and language interpretation problem. The basic problem with any languages like Asian languages is that when compared with English it is sometimes a matter of personal translation to write alphabetically how you think a sound or a non-alphabetic word should look when written down. (especially when translating for anyone that doesn't speak or read the Asian language) And then there is the problem of whether it is translated into Cantonese or Mandarin. Or do you pronounce an "ah" sound as an "e", an "a" or an "o"? And what if it is a word like "maahng"? You see the problem... Then there is the problem of the general publics perception of your wording. (which changes with the times) Will the "Bible Belt" public consider that you are a Buddhist if you use the word "Kung Fu" or are they more accepting of the word "Karate" because it is Japanese and they understand it more. Remember that at the time that the system was being named that the generation it was being born into had been living through a time when we "conquered" the Japanese and then accepted their "exotic traditions" but that the Chinese were the Communists and were "the unknown". This is why people like Bruce Lee found it hard to explain what he was doing or his style to the man on the street back in the 60s and 70s.
So speaking as a person that not only is a high ranking member of the system but also has a minor in Chinese language let me translate for you. In Mandarin it would be Meng Shou Dong Tai Zhong Guo Gong Fu. And you see the problem as we Americans call it "Kung Fu" but a Chinese person would interpret as "Gong Fu". Which oddly enough literally interprets into "skilled workman".
Anyway there it is... take it or leave it. I would recommend to any martial artist that is looking for an effective, smart, actually useful style of martial arts that goes deeply into the "Americanized Chinese Kung Fu" style, and at the same time is beautiful in it's style and simplicity, to take a free lesson and find out for yourself. I guarantee you'll love it.
Posted by: Shi Ronglang

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 10/03/10 06:42 PM

Not making premature assumptions about the practitioners of this style of yours as I know nothing of it (I have the often-bothersome weakness of granting anyone my respect by default and taking it back as I find cause to do so, when I should probably do it the other way round), but I have to say, as far as its historical background is concerned, so far it definitely doesn't smell good...

Originally Posted By: Natural1

I thought that the other members on this forum who have a bb in the system did a very good job of explaining to everyone the general basics of the origin.

I beg to disagree on that point.


Originally Posted By: Natural1

Also it should be said that a martial art system is not in it's history or it's famous background but in it's effectiveness and it's correctness of function. The whole idea of martial arts is to be able to do the best possible action in a situation where defensive or offensive actions are called for.

Agreed, but then there's no need to claim ties to more ancient sources. Krav Maga, whose effectiveness is well combat-proven, was entirely made up by Imi Sde'Or based on his street experience and influenced by his background in boxing/judo/wrestling. He didn't feel the need to give his little creation a Japanese name, and although Krav Maga was created longer ago and in a more remote country than MSDT, its genesis is well-known and documented. How come?

Originally Posted By: Natural1

Using those broad perspectives as a measuring stick the system would most comparatively be described as a Chinese style. Which is why it is considered to be a "Kung Fu" style. It is a mixture of many styles taking the best of all into account and coming up with something that is truly amazing and tested useful at the same time. But since it was approved an endorsed by the Chinese martial arts community in California at it's beginnings, it is considered and named with a "Chinese" name.

I've got two problems here.
First, I definitely don't think the presence of some Chinese techniques in the mixture makes it qualify as kungfu, let alone giving it a name that SPECIFICALLY claims it to be "Chinese Kungfu" (I don't even know of one single Chinese style whose name contains this phrase, so attributing it to a multi-sourced martial method sounds farfetched to say the least).
Second, I don't see the Chinese endorsing any recent art made-up by a European (regardless of its effectiveness) as "Chinese Kungfu" nowadays; therefore I have an even harder time imagining it back in the 70's.

Originally Posted By: Natural1

Now concerning the idea of "not knowing" something about the art or not being able to find out about it on the internet, let me ask you this. If you were going to take a college course, would you expect to be able to get your degree just by reading about the college on the internet or would you be required to pay your tuition, go to class, take your tests and then receive your degree?

Nope, but we certainly can find loads of information regarding the origin/history/reputation of any university in the world, and at least a list of the subjects taught. That's all we're asking for, really. No one here requested anything about how to earn an MSDT black belt online, my friend.

Originally Posted By: Natural1

You wouldn't try to explain neural surgery to a seventh grade biology student. Nor would your give away the procedures and techniques. (that's why medical school is not free)

We disagree here. I'm perfectly able, if I so desire, to buy all the existing literature on the matter of neural surgery - including its procedures and techniques. Of course, without a competent teacher and the properly supervised training, I won't be able to get my technique anywhere near correct, and I certainly won't get the required licence to practice that delicate art. And THAT is why medical school is not free (and why it is necessary at all in the first place). wink
That's also why most karate dojos aren't free either, even though there are loads of books on the subject, detailing every single technique of it. No need to keep them secret, since the books alone are nigh useless anyway.

Originally Posted By: Natural1

All martial arts will only give you more advanced information as you advance in rank.

Nope.
Training, yes. Information, no. All instructors of all martial schools I've ever tried were more than happy to explain the history and fundamental principles of their art to the beginner I was. Of course they wouldn't train me in advanced techniques before I reached the required level of proficiency, but as far as information was concerned, very little was held back.

Originally Posted By: Natural1

And as to the name and language interpretation problem. The basic problem with any languages like Asian languages is that when compared with English it is sometimes a matter of personal translation to write alphabetically how you think a sound or a non-alphabetic word should look when written down. (especially when translating for anyone that doesn't speak or read the Asian language) And then there is the problem of whether it is translated into Cantonese or Mandarin. Or do you pronounce an "ah" sound as an "e", an "a" or an "o"? And what if it is a word like "maahng"? You see the problem...

I do indeed.
That's why it's so wonderful those guys came up with a single, official transcription system. smile
I see you're familiar with it since you've given us the pinyin for your style's name.
Unfortunately, if it makes the pronunciation perfectly clear, it still leaves us in the fog regarding its exact meaning. Since, as you pointed yourself, translation from Chinese can be a somehow subjective enterprise, could you post a picture of the ideograms? Or, if that is a problem, could you identify the four characters by providing a common, easily identifiable word that contains them?
To give you an idea of the format I'm expecting (here using random, stupid examples):
meng as in meng-xiang ("dream");
shou as in shou-ji ("cellphone");
dong as in dong-xi ("thing");
tai as in tai-ji ("greatly extreme").
Thanks in advance. wink

Originally Posted By: Natural1

Then there is the problem of the general publics perception of your wording. (which changes with the times) Will the "Bible Belt" public consider that you are a Buddhist if you use the word "Kung Fu" or are they more accepting of the word "Karate" because it is Japanese and they understand it more. Remember that at the time that the system was being named that the generation it was being born into had been living through a time when we "conquered" the Japanese and then accepted their "exotic traditions" but that the Chinese were the Communists and were "the unknown". This is why people like Bruce Lee found it hard to explain what he was doing or his style to the man on the street back in the 60s and 70s.

I can understand that... Back in those days, Bruce Lee's movies were labeled (at least where I live) as "karate flicks". That's what I'm not criticising the now-weird-sounding "Chinese karate" phrase. That's not where my linguistic beef with your style's name lies.

Originally Posted By: Natural1

In Mandarin it would be Meng Shou Dong Tai Zhong Guo Gong Fu. And you see the problem as we Americans call it "Kung Fu" but a Chinese person would interpret as "Gong Fu".

Well, actually a Chinese person would interpret it as this . It used to be transcribed as "kungfu" in the now-obsolete Wade-Giles system, and should theoretically now be transcribed in the official pinyin system as gongfu, but people just stick to the old spelling out of habit. But the way it's meant to be pronounced hasn't changed one bit. wink

Originally Posted By: Natural1

Which oddly enough literally interprets into "skilled workman".

I beg to disagree here too.
Saying that the true meaning of "gongfu" in Chinese is "skilled workman" is like saying that the true meaning of "lord" in English is "bread keeper", or that an "imbecile" is "a person without crutches". That's just giving an etymological analysis of its various components, which often gives little or no clues concerning the actual meaning of the word. The real meaning of "gongfu" in traditional Chinese is "regular, dedicated effort", as evidenced by the popular proverb "only through thorough gongfu can the iron bar be eventually sharpened into a needle". In modern Chinese, it has now come to take the meaning occidentals gave it. How ironical... grin

Originally Posted By: Natural1

Anyway there it is... take it or leave it. I would recommend to any martial artist that is looking for an effective, smart, actually useful style of martial arts that goes deeply into the "Americanized Chinese Kung Fu" style, and at the same time is beautiful in it's style and simplicity, to take a free lesson and find out for yourself. I guarantee you'll love it.

If you are honest indeed and if that art is as good as you say it is, I would sincerely recommand stripping its name of that "Chinese kungfu" part. It sounds very un-Chinese, and it will just make it the (possibly undeserved) laughing stock of both the Chinese and the educated Westerners.
Posted by: TNM

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/01/10 03:36 PM

Disclaimer: I no longer study MSDT, nor am I affiliated with it in any way for reasons I won't go into on a forum. If I sound defensive of parts of it, it's probably because I am speaking out of experience and not out of parsing the words of other posters.

I think that part of the disconnect here is that many people on this forum are not really understanding the concept of how a Martial Art is founded. Allow me to use analogy to make a point. I am an American, not of Italian descent. However, I love pizza. I travel to little Italy and learn how to make the best Italian style pizzas ever. I move to a small town in the midwest and start up my own restaurant and call it "Bubba's Authentic Italian Pizzeria". Is the pizza less Italian if a non-Italian makes it or founds the restaurant? Or is the "Italian" part of it come from where the pizza maker learned how to make the pizza, what kind of ingredients are used, and how it is cooked? This is exactly what MSDT is. Yes, it is a Chinese style martial art. Yes, it was founded by two Americans. What they created reflected the Chinese style, i.e. what they learned and how they learned it. Yes, it draws heavily from Chinese Kenpo because Charles and Helen Jennings both were black belts in that system. A little piece of history for the ones seeking history on MSDT. Helen Jennings was one of the first female non-Asians to achieve a black belt in the system they studied.

Shiva is 100% correct in describing where the information came from in the creation of MSDT. Charles Jennings did incorporate all of his martial arts training with law enforcement-style defensive tactics, etc... In this way MSDT does share a common attribute with Krav Maga. Krav Maga's founder drew upon his own experience when creating the Israeli fighting system.

One reason why the 'history' of MSDT is not widely known is because there aren't any books on it. There aren't any official websites. And for that I have to say it's to the loss of the Jennings family and those who run the studios. They could probably grow more rapidly and have more understanding of their system if a little info was thrown out on an official basis.

I studied MSDT for 5 years and did have the privilege of studying under Charles and Helen on occasion and under Charles Jr. Is it the 'best ever'? That's an irrelevant question really. What defines the 'goodness' of a fighting system is 1) how complete the system is, i.e. is it a well-rounded program where you can learn self-defense, fighting, etc.. and 2) how well the student melds with the system. By that I mean what are the objectives of the student. If you want to go win trophies and stuff, then yeah, MSDT is not the system for you. They used to do participate in tournaments but stopped because there wasn't a large demand for it. If you are looking for something longterm, then MSDT is probably more up your alley.

MSDT teaches weapons and open-hand from the beginning, though the weapons at the beginning are of the less pointy sort. Hard-Soft style isn't mixing up words. Some of the techniques do reflect hard style martial arts, however the system is inherently an internal 'soft' style martial art, as are many/most Chinese styles.

What makes MSDT a little bit different than some systems is that it has the ability to evolve. Most traditional styles of martial arts do not change, and if they do the change is minimal. So, here's one point where you could say MSDT shares a characteristic of MMA. MSDT has changed a lot over the past few decades. When I was first studying, there were several programs available. Generally, you have the ability to get a black belt in about 5 years. Back then if you were hard charging, you could, by invitation, participate in an accelerated program where you could possibly obtain a black belt in 2 years, but there weren't many people taking advantage of this because it required a very big commitment (ie 8-10 hours per day, 5 days a week for 2 years straight). As a blue belt, I started working with soft hand. That changed. That was moved to something you work with after you get your black belt, which was a good change. I was a brown belt before I even started to 'get' the concepts.

Focusing on what the name MSDT means isn't too important. Shiva was pretty close with this here too. Since it is Chinese, there is no exact translation. I studied the Chinese language for 2 years, and I still can't fully understand how some words translate. I was told in the early 1990's that MSDT meant "the instinctual prowess of a wild beast". Whether it means that or not, I don't care. They could have been totally blowing smoke up my posterior and it still doesn't change the fact that that's the name of the system. I liked the system, but moved on when college occupied most of my time and when I couldn't commit to dedicating enough time to it.

Is it Americanized? Absolutely. So are all martial arts systems in the United States, regardless of who teaches it. What makes MSDT different than Imi Sde'Or's Krav Maga is that the founders did study under a preexisting system and possibly didn't originally intend on starting their own system, but they did and were helped by the martial arts community there, who were native Chinese. Lichtenfeld(Sde'Or)didn't give a Japanese name to Krav Maga because he wasn't at any time bound by a Japanese martial arts community. So, it's not really a fair comparison. Though I disagree with some of what Shi Ronglang has posted, he has brought up a valid point of why they would continue to call it Chinese Kung Fu. Back in the day, they did call it Chinese Kung Fu. They changed it to Chinese Karate (running the risk of using an oxymoron) to distance MSDT from what is classical KungFu/GongFu. Natural1 made some good points too. For all I know I trained with him/her. And from what I remember, the name is Cantonese.

If I were to offer a fair critique of the system (or what it was like back when I first started learning it) it would be as follows:

The system itself is magnificent. I have never studied a martial art which has as much information as MSDT. But that's a double-edged sword here. Because from the beginning you are learning techniques and concepts that would probably be saved in other systems for more advanced students. So I had a helluva time with the Blue and Green belt material. Towards the end of my time with MSDT I saw that some of the material was shifted around a bit. I wouldn't go so far as saying 'dummying it down', but maybe I'd say reorder things in a more realistic and ordered way.

After I finished my first two degrees of brown belt they did another major shift. The material was very hard. So, they took a bunch of techniques, weapons, and katas previously sitting on the table and inserted the ones that would be more level appropriate and created an entirely new brown belt (3rd-1st degree). The material formerly learned at that level was pushed up and became the material learned at the first 3 degrees of black belt. My critique here was more about money. If you had the money at that time, you would be 'grandfathered' in and continue down the course you were on, learning the new brown belt material, but proceeding with the original material. Those who could afford it (there weren't many) and who did take advantage of this became foundational black belts, meaning they would be able to learn, without having to pay for special programs in the future, all of what MSDT had to offer.

Another critique I would offer to MSDT is that, as many previous posters have commented on, you get 1 free lesson, then to continue you have to sign a 1 year contract. Fortunately, I did and liked what I learned. But, what if 3-4 months down the road I didn't want to continue? I'd still be accountable for that 1 year contract I signed. It is possible that this has changed, but at the time I was doing it, there were no alternatives.

The Belt system:

During my 4th year of study, they did ad a children's system. This was because they were most likely being honest with themselves in that a 6 year old cannot be expected to memorize all the names of the techniques (50-70 per belt) the katas (2 katas per belt level, one open hand and one weapon)and be able to have the ability to fight at the level of an adult with the same rank. So this might be where the golden dragon thing came from. And I don't know if this has changed, but here's the color system .

White-Orange-Purple-Blue-Green-Brown(x3)-Black(x10)
What made it confusing is that when we would go to a tournament other systems had trouble identifying which rank was higher lower.

As to Shi Ronglang's last comment, I think that is probably a bit unfair. I've never known a single martial artist who after being exposed to MSDT believes it's a laughing stock of the Chinese and "educated" Westerners. I honestly don't see what the point of saying that is. The name isn't misleading anyone anymore than Shi Ronglang would mislead people to think you are a Ninja master or something. It's a name you have chosen to use. I accept that.

If I had to sum up what MSDT is, I would say that it is a martial arts system which utilizes the techniques, form, and knowledge of Chinese systems with a more MMA (don't do it if it doesn't work) mentality.

I hope this helps, and if there are specific questions about MSDT I can answer, I would be more than happy to offer what I know.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/01/10 03:47 PM

Thanks for the detailed insider perspective. smile
Posted by: TNM

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/01/10 03:51 PM

Agreed on most of this here. I failed to mention the connection to the Bible belt here. I remember when all the names of the techniques that had anything Buddhist or non-Christian sounding were changed to appease the soccer moms.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/05/10 09:52 AM

PMSL

I possibly believe that this could be an excellent art in its self, but Guys come on none of us were born yesterday. We are all "EXPERIENCED" martial artist with decades of experience!!!

If its a DIY Style that has been made from Savate, Krav Maga and other styles then BE proud of it, My school "Black Tiger Karate" Is formulated from 3 core styles Ashihara, Wado and Tang Soo Do with influxes of other styles and I am always ready to share that. For a school that has 8 Dojo's I supprised you don't have your own Website.

If you fear Rejection because its a "New Style" then don't worry, Ashihara, Enshin, Krav Maga Keysi Fighting Method and other styles seem to do OK. Damn even Go Kan Ryu is doing well and that's a Joke on other forums.

I love the fact that so many "First time" posters have added to this thread. Can the "powers that be" check and see that they are all from different IP addresses???? if you know what I mean!!!

thanks for make me laugh today
Posted by: Shi Ronglang

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/05/10 08:07 PM

Like Matt said, thank you for the interesting insider information you brought to the discussion. wink

Still...
Originally Posted By: TNM
I think that part of the disconnect here is that many people on this forum are not really understanding the concept of how a Martial Art is founded. Allow me to use analogy to make a point. I am an American, not of Italian descent. However, I love pizza. I travel to little Italy and learn how to make the best Italian style pizzas ever. I move to a small town in the midwest and start up my own restaurant and call it "Bubba's Authentic Italian Pizzeria". Is the pizza less Italian if a non-Italian makes it or founds the restaurant? Or is the "Italian" part of it come from where the pizza maker learned how to make the pizza, what kind of ingredients are used, and how it is cooked? This is exactly what MSDT is.

I'm not arguing the fact that your pizza might taste (and “be”, as subjective as that may be) perfectly authentic; but no matter how good it is, a tall blond Scandinavian / African American / [insert visibly non-Italian type of your choice] claiming to be making "authentic Italian pizza" is going to look a bit silly (notice I didn't say he is).

That's one thing, but we have another problem here: the pizza being sold, although originally of Italian inspiration, has strayed from its primary form to become an original creation.

Picture this. Hans is the best pizzaiolo to ever walk the earth. He learnt how to make pizzas from the greatest Italian pizza-masters, and is a natural at it. Over the years, he figured his pizzas tasted even more awesome when he replaced the Mozarella with Gruyère, the anchovies with strips of wild-salmon fillet, and the olives with Sichuan berries. He has now a perfect product, a drop-dead gorgeous pizza that tastes better than anything ever made before.
Well, I can assure you that when Hans opens his restaurant “Hans Müller's authentic Italian Pizzas”, and advertises, in his thick Germanic accent, the authenticity of his specially designed Italian pizzas modified with French, Norwegian and Chinese ingredients, no one is going to take him seriously. And rightly so, because he simply ISN'T selling "authentic Italian pizzas”, even though what he does sell is absolutely fantastic (which could very well be the case of MSDT: I never judge what I don't know, and very little of what I do know wink ).

Originally Posted By: TNM
Yes, it is a Chinese style martial art. Yes, it was founded by two Americans. What they created reflected the Chinese style, i.e. what they learned and how they learned it. Yes, it draws heavily from Chinese Kenpo because Charles and Helen Jennings both were black belts in that system.

Whether it "is" a Chinese art is just a matter of semantics... Should Ed Parker's American Kempo be considered a Japanese/Okinawan style because that's what it mainly draws from? It's just an idle debate on words. Still, notice that Mr Parker had the good taste not to call his system “authentic Okinawan kempo karate”. wink


Originally Posted By: TNM
A little piece of history for the ones seeking history on MSDT. Helen Jennings was one of the first female non-Asians to achieve a black belt in the system they studied.

Could you provide more details about the said system? I'm not sure what style the term “Chinese kempo” refers to here, since “kempo” is a Japanese word (whose Chinese equivalent would be quan-fa in Mandarin and kyun-fat in Cantonese)... I know that Ed Parker did use this phrase to refer to his system in an attempt to render its multiple sources, before settling for “American Kempo-Karate” which is probably a better name for it. Is that the system Ms. Jennings achieved black-belt level in? I'm a bit confused.

Originally Posted By: TNM
Shiva is 100% correct in describing where the information came from in the creation of MSDT. Charles Jennings did incorporate all of his martial arts training with law enforcement-style defensive tactics, etc...

That can be an excellent thing as far as immediate practicality is concerned. smile
But there again, vocabulary-wise, as soon as you decide to replace the mozarella with cheddar you have to stop calling your pizza “authentic Italian”. wink

Originally Posted By: TNM
Focusing on what the name MSDT means isn't too important. Shiva was pretty close with this here too. Since it is Chinese, there is no exact translation.

Quite a number of Chinese words and phrases are indeed difficult to translate accurately, either due to very subtly nuanced connotations they may carry, their highly underspecified linguistic nature, or a deep bond with elements of Chinese culture that are beyond the West's understanding. BUT, for two Americans to come up with a name that fall into such a category, they would need to have reached nigh-perfect proficiency in the Chinese language and culture, which the last part of the name clearly demonstrates wasn't the case. The only possible explanation I might think of would be that a native Chinese may have invented the “meng shou dong tai” part, while they themselves would have added the silly “zhong guo gong fu” suffix.

I'm sorry but if you choose a foreign name for the art you create, you should at least know what the name means.

Originally Posted By: TNM
I studied the Chinese language for 2 years, and I still can't fully understand how some words translate. I was told in the early 1990's that MSDT meant "the instinctual prowess of a wild beast". Whether it means that or not, I don't care. They could have been totally blowing smoke up my posterior and it still doesn't change the fact that that's the name of the system.

You're the second Chinese-speaking practitioner of MSDT to post here, and I still can't get those mysterious four ideograms from anyone... It is quite frustrating.
If any of the posters who've been the voice of MSDT so far can provide a picture, or an indication of what they are through the format I suggested in my previous post, that would be great.
Don't bother about the first two characters though, they're clear enough to me already. It's the last two I'd like to be granted a chance to try and interpret myself.

By the way, that's entirely your choice of course, but I definitively think you should care at least to SOME degree about what your art's name means. Linguistic faux-pas can be real 6itches.
Just imagine for a second that an American, highly talented at martial arts but not so much at languages, comes up with a new terrific fighting style to which he'd like to give a super-cool name like “Intense Boxing of the Way of Darkness”... If he tries to translate that with a dictionary or an automatic translator, he may end up calling his system something like “yin dao shen quan” (the icing on the cake would be that he have the ideograms tattooed on his shoulder grin ). Do I need to explain? blush

Originally Posted By: TNM
Though I disagree with some of what Shi Ronglang has posted, he has brought up a valid point of why they would continue to call it Chinese Kung Fu. Back in the day, they did call it Chinese Kung Fu. They changed it to Chinese Karate (running the risk of using an oxymoron) to distance MSDT from what is classical KungFu/GongFu.

Although it does sound pretty oxymoronic, I understand where it's coming from and find the initiative valid.
I find it weird that they should call it karate now after calling it kungfu “back in the day”, though... Many schools did the opposite, calling it “karate” back in the 70's when that was what any Asian striking system would be called by the general population, switching back to kungfu now that people are widely familiar with the term (erroneous as it may be). Oh well... Their choice. smile
A long as they're not trying to mislead anyone, I respect it.

Originally Posted By: TNM
As to Shi Ronglang's last comment, I think that is probably a bit unfair. I've never known a single martial artist who after being exposed to MSDT believes it's a laughing stock of the Chinese and "educated" Westerners. I honestly don't see what the point of saying that is.

“After being exposed to MSDT” maybe not – if the system is as good as you say it is. But if you read my post carefully you'll notice I was referring solely to the “zhong guo gong fu” part of its name, which – I stand by it – would not only be somewhat fraudulent but also a major source of eye-rolling for native Chinese. I honestly didn't (and still don't) mean any disrespect to the art itself, I was only saying that this silly-sounding phrase should really be removed from the art's name for its own good.

Originally Posted By: TNM
The name isn't misleading anyone anymore than Shi Ronglang would mislead people to think you are a Ninja master or something. It's a name you have chosen to use. I accept that.

I beg to disagree: calling “Chinese kungfu” an art that's of only partially Chinese inspiration and was founded in California by two Americans IS misleading.

As for my pseudonym, the reason I use it is that I feel uncomfortable giving my real name on a public forum board.
It isn't even really a “pseudonym”, as in “a made up name”: it is a Chinese name I used to go by when I lived in China, an almost direct translation of my real name – the which would have been too much of a tongue-twister for my Chinese coworkers (it's bad enough for English-speakers already).
I'm making no mystery of its characters, they're right here under my user-name in the margin on the left of any of my posts. Without much difficulty, anyone familiar with Chinese could even work out my real first name from it. wink

Originally Posted By: TNM
If I had to sum up what MSDT is, I would say that it is a martial arts system which utilizes the techniques, form, and knowledge of Chinese systems with a more MMA (don't do it if it doesn't work) mentality.

One might argue that this apparently simple change does constitute a major stray from its origin, Chinese martial arts having more of a “do it until it does work” mentality grin . But then again, as soon as you stop marketing it as “Chinese kungfu”, you do whatever you like with it and that's perfectly fine. wink


I'll repeat it once more: I mean no disrespect to the system per se, nor to its founders, nor to you. I was never exposed to MSDT in any way and therefore, as a rule, won't allow myself to judge it.
I'm just pointing out a few strictly semantical weaknesses that do the style no favour.
Posted by: amelia john

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 11/11/10 06:29 AM

The system incorporates many techniques from many systems, but mainly in Kenpo, Shaolin Kung Fu, Savate, and street fighting. Charles Jennings was a fierce fighter who has developed his skills in the street and the Coast Guard, on the west coast of GC responsibilities include the prohibition of drugs almost every day.
Posted by: kirk_h

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 03/11/11 11:26 PM

In reference to the name "Mong Su Dom Tai"

For those of you interested in the actual Chinese name. Here you go...


The free translation services found on the internet do not do this justice. If you're able to translate this then please share with the rest of us.
Posted by: kirk_h

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 03/12/11 12:13 AM

I'm originally from California and I remember years ago when a man by the name of Charles Jennings used to teach self defense in one the high schools in our area. I believe he was a black belt in Tracy's Kenpo back in the early 70's.
Posted by: Shi Ronglang

Re: Mong Su Dom Tai Chinese Karate - 03/14/11 09:45 PM

Thanks for the missing two characters. smile

The way I understand it now, it would roughly translate as "a ferocious beast's form of motion", wich makes sense as a phrase even though it is very "un-Chinese" as a martial style name - hence making the "zhong-guo gong-fu" ("Chinese kungfu") part of the name sound badly out of place.

But hey, if the style works... Better to practice a good method with a silly name than a silly method with a good name. wink