What is really being taught?

Coord, I have trained in very regimented schools in the past. My current school is much more informal. I personally don’t feel that uniforms, belts, rank, etc.. teach what some claim they teach. I could be wrong so I phrased my question in the most respectful and non-judgmental way I could think of. I sincerely wish to hear others opinions and their perspectives.

Let's analyze just about 100% of 1 on 1 confrontations:
Either you have 2 jerks, or 1 jerk and another guy who probably doesn't know how to handle the jerk.

Drills teach you how to handle the jerk better.
The traditional method of manners helps you learn some humility and ego-sublimation. In short, how not to BE the jerk.

Sigh....belts and rank structure don't teach anything.

However as you will know if you ever try to run a school, it is unfortunately a small minority of people (at least in the TMA-oriented world) who will make the initial step to start training in something without some tangible reward to get them through the door. Sad but true.

I wish no one cared about them, but for people just starting off ranks can serve as a motivating factor.

I really don't understand why people make such a big deal about it either way, it's just trappings, and if you focus on the trappings you miss out on the substance, whether you are for or against them.

I'd also like to mention that having a rank structure and belts does not in any way have to imply that your training itself is done in a rigid, unflexible way, and honestly if you think it does that's just lack of experience talking, no offense.

I don't see alot of arguments that rank structure is central to anyone's MA, where are you getting this?

Zach, it sounds like your belt ranking system is just a motivator for students and is not associated with other qualities. However, it doesn’t take too much searching to find practitioners who believe that their ranking system, bowing and saying “sir” teaches respect, discipline and leadership. If you never have come across people that come from schools like this, I am very surprised. Maybe it's just mostly a TKD thing.

I think one thing that gets left out of these discussions is that we are practicing MARTIAL arts here. Martial=military. The military has uniforms. The military has ranks. you are expected to call superiors sir/ma'am in the military. not only is it a tradition to have uniforms, belts, and courtesy towards senior students, it's part of the MARTIAL history of Martial arts. See what happens if you join the army and refuse to call a general "sir."

you could as easily say, the military is too strict and they should be allowed to wear whatever they want. or that they should be rankless and all be equal. would it work out? soldiers are some of the most disciplined, respectful, and loyal people in the world. if it works for them. then why not in Martial Arts?

We don't have belts or uniforms and a minimum of imposed discipline as students are expected to show self-discipline. However, the senior students who have been with me for a long time wear club tshirts to show that they have some seniority and if I'm not available they are the guys to ask for help on movements or techniques. They are then acting as older brothers in the family of the school. I think this is fairly traditional in many chinese systems.

If it walks like a cult, sounds like a cult, quacks like a cult...

Like stated earlier, you might be viewing it from a purely western view. Many arts teach fighting techniques and along with that the traditions and values that comes along with the art and the culture that it comes from. In the east its pretty common sense and such to bow and talk to your elders (esp. in MA) in a certain manner. The masters become father figures and senior students your brothers/sisters. Its out of respect that you address them accordingly because they worked hard to get to where they are.

I don't find it wierd because I am Asian-American. But I think its awkward sometimes with westerners (and western masters) who use "Sir" & "Ma'am" because 1) its a foreign concept to them and 2)it just sounds wierd in English, hahah. I call my master "Sifu" all the time, nothing wierd to me about it. And it teaches me nothing because I feel that I have that culture and those values already instilled in me. Its an Asian thing....

Hello Everyone:

Can you give us particular examples to help the process along? Where do you want to start... ?

Awesome responses folks!!!

Jeff

Jeff, I am not sure if I can be more clear. The responses so far have been very good at expressing various perspectives. My post was mostly a comentary on the perspective exemplfied by TKD_X.

Some of the other posts point out that belts, rank and such have other purposes, and are not always intended to teach anything. For them its a practical matter. And for others is part of the culture thats passed along with the art.

My preference is to be less militarisic in training. I did the military thing and am done with that. My teacher is a friend of mine, not my master. Equality, freedom, and respect are important qualities for me and I don't feel they are best served in a regimented/militaristic environment.

For those who like a psudo-military environment, that's fine for them. There are schools out there who cater to that. I don't think those environments teach what some claim they teach, but if they are happy - so what?

Jeff, does this clear things up or make it more confusing. I'm just asking for others views on the subject, and getting them.

I have trained in schools that use belts and uniforms and schools that train in T Shirts and shorts. IMO the rank system is critical for the beginners especially young men. We train to fight, you must maintain respect and control. Often people unfamiliar with training don't understand and the rank struckture gives them the understanding they otherwise may or may not have.

Like I said I train at both types of school and the atmoshere is much better at the more formal location.

comparing schools with uniforms to cults is IMHO ridiculous. TMA masters are trying to pass on their knowledge, not to gain a following of brainwashed "students" that think of them as a supreme being. it's a touchy subject, but come on people, for those who seek out martial arts training, they are looking for fitness and self defense, not some guru who they can look up to as some supernatural person.

i would also like to emphasize that some martial arts use the uniform for practical uses. Judo, jujitsu, karate, and hapkido to name a few, all use belts and heavy uniforms for grappling and throwing techniques.

for those that don't like atmospheres that have some basis in military traditions, recall that we are doing Martial Arts. if you didn't want the martial part, why didn't you go to the Arts class on the corner and learn how to make a clay pot? perhaps soon we will begin to see a differentiation between traditional MA and modern MA. TMA preserves tradition, whereas modern MA just teaches what they feel is pertinent, while forgoing the formalities associated with tradition. quick and dirty.

i personally value tradition in MA. For me, i am not looking to be an "equal," i would establish a teacher-student relationship. college professors don't wear ripped jeans and t-shirts to class and say "sup dudes let's rap about physics." i would write that professor off as a joke. there should be a reason you have your rank. it should be because you are qualified to teach. you worked hard for it and you aren't going to class to be an equal, you are there to teach and give the students quality instruction.

You know...I much rather prefer the 'no gi, no mantra, no belt' environment...and for some reason...it seems traditional to me. I think folks should be aware that there are aspects of culture that may or may not persist/be transmitted with an art simply in the training. But there is also 'dojo culture'...and that is really unique to each dojo and teacher. It's possible to find any variation of gi/belt/etc....and it may or may not be used as a means to varying levels of heirarchy and control. Some can abuse it (there is an interesting thread going on right now over at aikiweb about this).

It comes down to this: learning an art is imperfect transmission. We try to codify the process...but no saying if the process is going to result in repeatable and identical students. Getting hung up on the trappings...well if the student sticks around long enough...they see past it after awhile anyway.

Excellent post, everyone.

Let's look at it this way: every other sport from boxing to gymnastics to powerlifting does without this kind of ritual. And they seem to be doing okay!

I think the bowing and belt colors and "yes sir"-ing just serve to infuse MA with a certain mystique--something they do not need and should have sloughed off a long time ago.

Well, there is ritual in everything. The ritual of bowing and putting on your belt is no different (or rather, should be no different) to the ritual of putting on your boxing gloves or weight belt and facing up to the barbell, saying to yourself, today I'm going to bench 200lbs.

Ritual engenders discipline and focus - whether your practising an MA or boxing, weight-lifting. Getting up in the morning, getting on the train and going to work is a ritual in itself.

It's the extreme meaning and mystique (or lack thereof) you attach to the ritual that's the real issue.

@Kujaku - hence my "cult" comment. [Side note: I am familiar with several MA, and Asian to boot ]

Everyone

Please forgive my rampent cynicism.

"qualites that are often cited to valaidate those traditions"

Since I have no clue what/whom/where such "qualites are cited to validate" or what "traditions" you mean, I'll take a pass on this one.

"Treated everyone with equality and respect"

A-Sure that would be better---and it would be better STILL if we all treated each other with kindness, love and cookies...free cookies!!!!!

All kidding aside--the trappings may reinforce things but the whole "conformity" thing along with "obedience" and yes "subserveience" is found in various degree whereever you find people----school, the job...birdwatching clubs, carpools, relationships......so I doubt that ditching the uniforms and belts would help all that much.....pecking orders and expectations of following them are not PRODUCTS of the uniforms and belts---they are merely more obvious EXAMPLES of them.

B-That is not how I train--so personally I don't know how to respond.
If a loincloth was good enough for the "old masters"--then shorts and T-Shirt is good enough for me.

C-You seem to be taking the worst possible spin on the examples and using it as if their were not other POV and opinons on the whole trappings thing.

To a certain extent you wear what is the norm for what your doing and whom your doing it with.......I wear often wear a suit to work--does not make me smarter....I often wear ugly golf pants and shirt to golf with clients....does not effect my game...but proper "golf attire" is expected...I wear nice set of cloths on a date....I wear goofy looking cloths at the Scots festival--just like the rest of my Scots family and buds...does not make me any more or any less whom I am.

If your hanging your idenity on what you wear---the problem is a lot closer to home than the uniform..IMO.

Interesting question though.

It may help to put a cultural perspective on these musings.
It's my understanding that the belt structure is a 20th century invention designed to pit students of a more or less simlar ability against each other in competition. The practice spread rapidly and having a black belt became known by the west as being a dangerous person to know. That has now changed as everyone knows black belts are for sale. Some trad martial arts adopted the belt system, many did not.
The practice of respect and bowing to one's sifu/sensei whatever is much older and probably deeply rooted in the confucian ethos of total respect to one's family. In China when you enrol as a martial arts student you are, in effect, being adopted by that school who become your family and so you show total respect to your sifu who becomes your new father figure.

It's undoubtedly true that some schools may hide behind the rituals and enforced respect of students to hide a lack of any actual knowledge. The more they can bind their students to them the less likely they are the students will realise they are being taught crep and leave. Fortunately I think most TMAs use a minimum of trappings and rituals as they cut too much into training time.

i always thought there were 2 kinds of respect.

1..common courtesy...the respect you automatically show someone. this is what is taught in alot of dojo's and dojan's. it is also about humility and realizing you aren't all that.

2..true respect that is earned, not given.

i asked my instructor what i should call him and he said..well..."anything but Tim"

in other schools i was made to say yes sir no sir..yes maam no maam.

i think it's silly to FORCE someone to call you sir or ma'am.(i find it annoying to be called sir) ...but i see how it can benefit people. showing them common courtesy.

as far as belt ranks. i believe it is simply to show where you're at on your journey. i think Ed Parker once said that ranks only show where you've been, and where you have yet to go...and nothing of how "good" you are.

i think that is exactly how they should be taken. a black belt doesnt mean the person is "good" (to a certain varying degree)...it means he's been through everything up to that point.

it's nice to have a sense of achievement, and have something to show for it. but after a while it stops mattering so much and i think that's why after shodan, the belt stays black practically forever rather than changing colors again and again. until 9th or 10th dan i think when it turns red again. which i'm told means you've come full circle and realize you are still a beginner.

Hello TKD X:

I would offer its truly not that ridicilous. Caution is always wise & merited re: cult-ish behavior.

<<fitness and self defense, not some guru who they can look up to as some supernatural person.

Many do this as well... unfortunately. However FITNESS while beneficial is not a historical function of these arts per se. Byproduct certainly, but not the actual purpose.

<<for those that don't like atmospheres that have some basis in military traditions, recall that we are doing Martial Arts.

I think you would easily get a pretty SERIOUS debate whether then/now from any "professional warriors" or hopologists, scholars. The purpose of martial arts training Tae Kwando, Hopkido, Kara-te, Aikido, Judo, etc. ... has not ever been to engage large numbers/groups. That is in essence military in nature (by definition) IMV. Military training is fundamentally about using weaponry not empty handed training. But you were speaking of empty handed arts not arts ending with the term jutsu , not the koryu, the far older martial practices of professional warriors.

I would also offer you would have a very hard time (impossible?) finding anybody doing the screaming, the stiff rigidity, the fanatical/ultra militant atmosphere Japanese Ultra Nationalism pre the World War 2. Because it was a training method used specifically on very, very young soldiers (draftees) does not mean it had merit anyplace after that time-place. It is ridicilously out of context elsewhere...

Martial arts as commonly practiced are civilian based, used by civilians against other "civilians" presumedly criminals, out of control folks but not military based.

Jeff

Fair enough, eyrie.

I concede a certain amount of ritual can help maintain discipline and focus. Like you, I think I have a problem with the degree of ritual sometimes found in the MAs.

hello ronin,

i see and understand your PoV. however i'm not saying that MAs today should be military training or even that it resembles military training. the point i really wanted to make was that the idea of uniforms, ranks, "yes sirs", etc. are based on military systems. also i haven't seen schools like that anywhere. i just wanted to kind of note a part of this conversation that wasn't previously being addressed. people were saying that it keeps in tradition. what kind of tradition? military tradition. martial military. people are wondering where the ranks and uniforms come in to play, it's from when these arts WERE (past tense) used for military purposes.

like i said, schools nowadays don't teach military stuff. all i wanted to point out was the basis for wearing uniforms, etc. it's tradition.

i'm not sure i understood the comment about fitness. in the quote, i stated "fitness and SELF DEFENSE" as being the purpose that people seek out MA instruction, not just fitness. but more importantly is the context about MA schools acting like cults. please clarify.

-TKD_X

4GET ALLLLLL THAT BS, GET THE FIGHTING THING BY LEIUTENANT X. I GOT IT CAUSE I LIVE IN SOUTHSIDE QUEENS NY(NOT A NICE PLACE). NE WAY I GOT JUMPED BY 4 KIDS FROM THE LOCAL "GANG" The Renegade Kings ON MY WAY HOME @ 10:00 PM FROM MY GIRLS HOUSE AND I BROKE A KNEE 2 NOSES AND A JAW. (THEY ATTEND MY SCHOOL SO I KNOW THE DAMAGES) ITS SOOOOOOOOOOOO SIMPLE.

*presses ban button*

lol @ lieutenant X

call him his proper name now. LEIutenant X.

how can we? he won't tell us is proper name...it's top secret!