Posted by: BrianS
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Just to save time, we're changing the name of Aikido to "Ai-that stuff that doesn't exist- do"...
Quote:That's a contradiction isn't it? Crapola => you don't believe. So you're not saying you don't believe, you're just not sure.
crapola. I'm not saying I dont believe in Chi/Ki. But no way can it be used as a legitimate force in fighting someone in the chaos in fighting.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6p219fVyY&feature=related
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZteEs2Hrek&feature=related
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y&feature=related
Quote:You seem pretty certain Matt... perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "garbage" and why these tricks have nothing to do with "ki"?
Garbage... Breaking demos, etc are simply tricks that have nothing to do with "ki".... More garbage.
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You seem pretty certain Matt... perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "garbage" and why these tricks have nothing to do with "ki"?
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Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"?
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And how is it that stuff can be broken on a person, or trucks driven over someone, or people breaking stuff? How does that work... IYO?
Quote:So you "believe" Qi === "life force"??? Used in a specific context, qi does imply life force (loosely translated), but from a martial perspective, it's the "force" aspect and what you can do with it that's important. But of course you "knew" that... right?
Crapola as to the videos that I saw, not a contridiction of my belief in Qi as a life force.
Quote:Yeah, I meant you can't do it - as in "no way can it be done..." (your words)
"this is beyond my level of comprehension and ability"... Cute. There are many things beyond my comprehension and even more beyond my ability. Thats a fact of life for every human being on the planet.
Quote:It's equally interesting how the critics can't see the martial value in these little tricks - and they are simply "little" tricks - coz they always need more data, more statistics and more evidence.
Its funny how die hard believers of this mystic ability to project life energy into another to halt an aggressive motion can NOT be tested in a full contact environment. Nay sayers demand proof and all they get is long winded posts and essays on absolutely nothing of martial worth. Every video posted of such an act being pursued in a full contact environment shows the "chi masters" being spanked.
Quote:"True" kara-te was derived from Shaolin-derived Buddhist practices, practices which involve the esoteric cultivation of qi. So if you're not au fait with such practices, are you practising "true" karate?
True Kara-te is for preserving life.
Quote:Uh huh... that would be using UP life force in a marital way...
Humans as a species have existed for well over $2.5 million years just going back to the Paleolithic era. So you are telling me that NOW of all times during the human existence that we have the ability to use life energy in a marital way? Excuse me if I cough up *BS*.
Quote:Reliability is not the issue. The issue is one of efficacy and efficiency - i.e. how easily and quickly can you teach/train someone to use it. It is by far, easier and quicker to teach someone how to use external MA than it is to introspect and develop internally-focused MA.
Why? Because it is not reliable.
Quote:Your 2nd sentence is true to an extent - you don't need to know or understand it to make it work, but it helps to know and understand what you're doing, no? Otherwise, it's just monkey see, monkey do right? Which part was "garbage"? I'll agree, the dive bunny hopping silliness is garbage, but the person applying - is that part garbage... IYO? Why? Why not?
Sure, fair enough. "Garbage" as in not real; exagerrated; false. Nothing to do with ki as in "people that have no knowledge or understanding of ki can do the same tricks".
Quote:Well, if you can't define "ki" how do you know with any certainty if it is involved or not? Surely, one needs to at least know what one is talking about?Quote:Nope - can you? J/K
Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"?
Quote:I agree. You don't need knowledge or belief in ki to explain how this works. Analyze it from a physics perspective. How does that work?
Again, what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills. Some could say ki, some could say physics.
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Your 2nd sentence is true to an extent - you don't need to know or understand it to make it work, but it helps to know and understand what you're doing, no? Otherwise, it's just monkey see, monkey do right?
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Which part was "garbage"? I'll agree, the dive bunny hopping silliness is garbage, but the person applying - is that part garbage... IYO? Why? Why not?
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Well, if you can't define "ki" how do you know with any certainty if it is involved or not? Surely, one needs to at least know what one is talking about?
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Used in a specific context, qi does imply life force (loosely translated), but from a martial perspective, it's the "force" aspect and what you can do with it that's important.
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I agree. You don't need knowledge or belief in ki to explain how this works. Analyze it from a physics perspective. How does that work?
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Harlan,
all these "chi wars" are started by people who don't know anything about it, don't believe in it, and are too lazy to go get some training to see if what they're "against" exists or not. They can't learn it in 5 minutes or google it and get the information they need, so it's "bunk" to them.
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We have Aikido students all the time that take months or years to ever understand what ki is and how to use it. Just to save time, we're changing the name of Aikido to "Ai-that stuff that doesn't exist- do"... then, we'll change the training to only use strength. When the techniques don't work, we'll say... "try this... ". They still won't understand it, but at least the techniques will work again...
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what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills
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It's equally interesting how the critics can't see the martial value in these little tricks - and they are simply "little" tricks - coz they always need more data, more statistics and more evidence.
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"True" kara-te was derived from Shaolin-derived Buddhist practices, practices which involve the esoteric cultivation of qi. So if you're not au fait with such practices, are you practising "true" karate?
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Reliability is not the issue. The issue is one of efficacy and efficiency - i.e. how easily and quickly can you teach/train someone to use it. It is by far, easier and quicker to teach someone how to use external MA than it is to introspect and develop internally-focused MA.
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Since you don't know how it works, or how to make it work, much less what IT is, of course it doesn't work for you. But saying that it is inconsistent, unreliable, or other BS doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Certainly doesn't invalidate it - you just need more "live" data.
Quote:Which is precisely my point...
Sure, but my point is that knowledge of ki is not necessary or intrinsic to those demos. Physics can do the same thing.
Quote:Yes, but if he doesn't APPEAR to be doing anything... WHAT is he doing? Analyze HOW he's doing it... I agree, physical technique can be done WITH or without ki. BUT that depends on how you define and understand ki - doesn't it? You follow?
The person doesn't appear to be applying anything. Unless you were talking about the first thirty seconds of that video, which looked like Aikido to me. But even that part was physical technique, things that can be done without ki. IMHO.
Quote:Remember, Chinese is a contextual language. The same ideogram can have several meanings - just like how certain words in the English language can have several meanings. The various meanings that we would be interested in, in a martial context, is "force" - of which "pressure", "gravity", "vectors", "momentum", "leverage" are all UNAMBIGUOUS physical terms relating to "force" that we are all familiar with.
Seems difficult to anyone to clarify, doesn't it? That kind of ambuguity of definition makes it easy to make it seem like people may not know what it is they are talking about.
Quote:It's ALL physics... even after the opening section.... (ignore the bunny hopping antics - that's rubbish) So, I now ask you... what then is "ki"?
Are we still talking about that first video? After the opening section, there are no physics involved. If you are talking about some of the other demos like the bed of nails thing, that is a trick using surface area to spread the weight over many nails. Ask the guy to lie on a bed of ONE nail.... Board and brick-breaking are accomplished through similar concept in reverse (focusing impact area), along with impulse (duration of impact), etc. Physics concepts.
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Ka
Quote:And this hard system of quan fa originated from where, with what influences? Are you absolutely, positively certain that some of the exercises in karate are not derived (as in developed understanding and applied knowledge) from Buddhist qigong methods?
No. It was derived from Ti (Indigenous Okinawan Fighting Method), and it was mixed with the Hard system of Chu'an Fa during the china trade. And it was then integrated with Japanese bujutsu during the occupation by the Satsuma clan. Kara-te had many influences and was not "derived" from a single budhist meditation method.
Quote:This is of course YOUR learned ignorant perspective. If you read more closely into what I wrote, you would realize I was indicating quite the opposite.
The fact that it is not consistent means it is crap. It's about efficiency? How to efficiently get your a$$ whopped and knocked out? If so then I agree.
Quote:I can apply and have applied it martially. Just because you can't doesn't make it invalid.
Why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?
Quote:If you knew anything about qi, you would of course know that makiwara training and other hojo undo is basically aspects of qigong training. The ignorance is astounding.
Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?
Quote:Again, the level of ignorance is astounding.
Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?
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Which is precisely my point...
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Yes, but if he doesn't APPEAR to be doing anything... WHAT is he doing? Analyze HOW he's doing it... I agree, physical technique can be done WITH or without ki. BUT that depends on how you define and understand ki - doesn't it? You follow?
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It's ALL physics... even after the opening section.... (ignore the bunny hopping antics - that's rubbish) So, I now ask you... what then is "ki"?
Quote:It's ALL physics?
Sorry, you lost me there.
Quote:No, it's not group hypnosis... although his students should be soundly whipped for acting so. He is clearly demonstrating a physical skill. I know it is hard to see if you haven't see/felt it. The way it works is simple. It's the same thing as the exercise as I described in the Chi, Shoes and Metal Parts thread. It's to do with redirection of forces - input force, reaction force.
Sorry, I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think he is doing anything but maybe group hypnosis. Nothing physical that could be replicated on anyone that didn't believe in the trick to begin with.
Quote:So what's so hard to believe? Does "ki" exist? I'll give you a clue. You can't ai-ki with inanimate objects, coz they have no ki. You can't ai-ki with someone who is simply standing there not attacking you.
Ki, as related to martial arts, seems to be the physical dynamic between two opponents. Encompassing mostly physics, as I see it.
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And this hard system of quan fa originated from where, with what influences? Are you absolutely, positively certain that some of the exercises in karate are not derived (as in developed understanding and applied knowledge) from Buddhist qigong methods?
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This is of course YOUR learned ignorant perspective. If you read more closely into what I wrote, you would realize I was indicating quite the opposite.
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I can apply and have applied it martially. Just because you can't doesn't make it invalid.
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If you knew anything about qi, you would of course know that makiwara training and other hojo undo is basically aspects of qigong training. The ignorance is astounding.
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Again, the level of ignorance is astounding.
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Well, Brian, can you honestly tell me karate has had NO influences from Shaolin Buddhist practices? Absolutely none whatsoever? That the katas, hojo undo and other aspects of karate training have not been influenced or derived from such practices? That the breathing, stretching, twisting, spiraling movements of sanchin and other kata have no other conceivable basis to their purpose, other than the "obvious" externalities?
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As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.
Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?
BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...
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I continue to be amazed that all the experts in calling chi or ki have no experience in it's use, but are supposed to be "practitioners of karate". Karate is momentary applications of ki, unlike the redirections of aikido and jujutsu, but focusing the breath and timing of techniques none the less. You twits wonder why "Old Okinawan masters pounded makiwaras", it was to learn to time their motion and breath together... duh... Just for extra added attractions, they stepped into the makiwara to time their foot movements into the equation...
These were fighting "systems", not collections of individual techniques like a box of parts to put together a bicycle. I would venture to say that most of you "karate practitioners" pay little if any attention to the shape of your arm when making your techniques, which is another clue as to how much you actually know about your art.
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Knowing which master farted at the dojo picnic isn't "martial arts history" or "technical knowledge" of your art. Understanding the underlying principles of movements, techniques, carriage, body structure, methods of execution, training, and yes, the ever popular "applications of ki" in your techniques is where your art lies. If you aren't practicing those things, you're only dancing around.
The International Traditional Karate Federation can give you guidelines for what your karate should have in it, and I'm afraid many of you would find out your teachers didn't have the goods... much less YOUR stuff...
If that's insulting, tough $***... it's the truth, and I've been around MA for 45 years... so I've seen more than most of you guys will ever know.
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There was a lot of conversation about the old guy with the bunny hopping monkeys, but watching his movements... he was in control from the beginning to end of his techniques. The fact that his students over-played the effects of his redirections doesn't negate the fact that his movements controlled theirs. That's what Eyrie was alluding to in his statement about the video.
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The Bill Moyers video mentioned his "vibrating palm", which is quite well known in Tai Chi circles, and the "shake" that is used in fa jing, while not looking like much, is an explosion of energy. You might not feel much from a tai chi master until he jerks your arm out of the socket with one of those simple shakes.
If you have no training in arts using ki, you're only proving your ignorance by telling those who have trained in those arts that they're wrong. I'm sure you could tell the Indy racers what they're doing wrong, and tell Tiger Woods how he should be playing golf.
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I used to race sports cars, but I don't go around telling Jeff Gordon how he should be driving at Daytona. For the most part, the people I've been associated with in martial arts have been good people, but I can sense a change in both the attitudes and quality of the practitioners, especially in more "non traditional" arts. Everybody thinks they're a bad-a$$, and everybody thinks that because they have a keyboard, they are experts. Unfortunately, google can't teach you a thing about ki.. it can only find articles and internet chatter about it
My teacher taught me that I should always have a "student's mind"... constantly learning, testing the information, and putting it into my knowledge bank. He never mentioned anything about calling people liars, or telling them that they were full of crap because he didn't buy their story. Our way of testing things was to try them and find the best teachers we could find to train us in them. Interestingly enough, none of those teachers had that "your stuff is crap" attitude either.
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If you don't believe in chi, or ki, fine... don't believe in it. Clearly, you aren't being trained in its use, so like driving at Daytona, I don't expect you to have the skills. That doesn't negate anything that anyone who does train in it has... they simply have a different view, and more knowledge of its application. It's your loss...
Quote:The problem is, people choose to see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and think what they want to think. Like those idiots pulling the hopping bunny antics, some people here need a smack upside the head...
His movement controlled their's? Yet they felt the need to overact?? Sure,that makes sense.
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Monkey Experiment Proves Corporate Policy Process
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, and all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon the monkeys will try to prevent it.
Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.
Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that’s the way it’s always been done around here.
And that, my friends, is how a company policy begins.
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1. lama has *some* skillz... but his New-Agey students are all f**kn idiots.
2. Classic hard qigong demos
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That shoulder check is actually a very good technique (but of course not as it's shown on the video as nearly non-touch nonsense). Surprized to see myself typing it, but as eyrie and WT mentioned, try hard to subtract what the uke jester fool is doing, then imagine that side check with full contact and intent. In 2-person drills it literally sends a person slamming into a wall. (which is a good thread idea in it's own right: remember, there isn't just the floor you can hit people with )
Some football professionals cross-train tai chi for a reason
When is the appropriate time to 'use' it? what dynamics and timing are going on, etc - is involved to explain it, but simple to show in 5 minutes. Could also be it's own thread...and without ever mentioning the 'c' word. lol
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looks like "kao" in taiji. I think I get what you're asking. It's different to using "shoulder muscle".... The "tell" if someone is using the "shoulder muscle", e.g. if they move their arm from their shoulders, is if they raise their shoulders.
Physically and mentally, training is usually slow and "soft". As you get the hang of it, it's neither slow nor soft.
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WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself
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I don't understand what you mean by "train technique using a tree"? Do you mean hit the tree? Poor tree...
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Mr Chin, Ashes Sifu, also knows. Watching him move is so much like seeing Bossman move its lovely. This is absolute peach of clip that Ashe put on youtube, theres is a very distinct gem of information in this clip. This is how Bossman teaches, very slowly, very methodically, very mindfully and practically. No Chi balls, no NTKO's, no B.S. This is what IMA's are all about in my opinion. If you look at the very end where Mr Chin mentions the drop down to come up, look at how he uproots the guy, thats an example of what Bossman calls the "Wedge":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuF6hLUzIYM
Now imagine that uprooting being done at the speed Mr Chin is doing his form at here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15971247
If you really want to see what real IMA's are about watch Ashes clips on Youtube with Mr Chin. Apart from Bossman, hw's the only one I've seen to really look like they can do the job.
Here is Ashe's page (big thanks for sharing this stuff by the Ashe! )
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ashehiggs
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Aikido being purely internal?
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This would mean physical strength. I dont doubt his skill ability from what I have learned but he would still have had physical conditioning.
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WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself
No, and I never said that. YOU and your other minions who have no knowledge of using chi puport yourselves as experts in all kinds of martial arts, and yet completely discount the use. Chi is also a connection... I can be using chi and be disconnected, and have no result... I can use chi and have a "bad" connection, and the techniques won't work... I can have a "good connection", and throw your a$$ out the dojo door or through the wall.
Take the time to go to Aikido class with your kids, Ed... you might actually learn something. As Eyrie said, "once you learn the internal method, you won't ever want to go external"... it's a simple rule... get some training and you might learn something. That's not arrogance or condecension... just good sense...
By the way, I just posted that so you guys would go ahead and blow off your usual $*** at us... it was just a matter of time, and I didn't want you to have any "pent up feelings"...
Brian... I'm an s$$ and you're an idiot... I guess you win... get some sleep
Eyrie, this subject is like talking to a rock with these guys... when you get through, the rock won't be any smarter about it...
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I guess I'm just stupid.
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no worries Brian. here's the no-win logic: when someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they believe in Chi - it's attributed to them understanding internal concepts.
If someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they DON'T believe in Chi concepts...well then, they have no clue what real MA is all about.
see...people here are being judged and categorized by their beliefs, not by their skill. If you believe and use the term Chi, then you are 'in' and what you are training is good.
If you don't use the term or if you say it's bunk, then you are an external, knuckle-dragging, meatheaded, cyber-warring troglodite.
see how that works?
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no worries Brian. here's the no-win logic: when someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they believe in Chi - it's attributed to them understanding internal concepts.
If someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they DON'T believe in Chi concepts...well then, they have no clue what real MA is all about.
see...people here are being judged and categorized by their beliefs, not by their skill. If you believe and use the term Chi, then you are 'in' and what you are training is good.
If you don't use the term or if you say it's bunk, then you are an external, knuckle-dragging, meatheaded, cyber-warring troglodite.
see how that works?