more chi power!!!

Posted by: BrianS

more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 12:34 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6p219fVyY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZteEs2Hrek&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y&feature=related
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 01:20 AM

1. lama has *some* skillz... but his New-Agey students are all f**kn idiots.
2. Classic hard qigong demos
3. Total scam
4. Shi Ming has skills. But he ain't teaching his "students" nothing. All dive monkeys and Andrew the American "student" is a drop kick. Even a white belt judoka would be able to demonstrate at least passable technique with that ippon.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 01:27 AM

why do you think #3 is a scam? is that because you can't do it?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 01:35 AM

Qi only affects animate objects...
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 10:33 AM

crapola. I'm not saying I dont believe in Chi/Ki. But no way can it be used as a legitimate force in fighting someone in the chaos in fighting.
Posted by: harlan

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 10:34 AM

*sigh* Troublemaker.

You know...if there are going to be weekly chi threads...wouldn't it be easier to keep track of the ongoing 'discussion' by naming the threads with week dates?

You know: 'chi thread 11/19/07' ??
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 11:56 AM

or we can stuff 10 lbs of chi in a 5 lbs bag?
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 12:20 PM

Harlan,
all these "chi wars" are started by people who don't know anything about it, don't believe in it, and are too lazy to go get some training to see if what they're "against" exists or not. They can't learn it in 5 minutes or google it and get the information they need, so it's "bunk" to them.

We have Aikido students all the time that take months or years to ever understand what ki is and how to use it. Just to save time, we're changing the name of Aikido to "Ai-that stuff that doesn't exist- do"... then, we'll change the training to only use strength. When the techniques don't work, we'll say... "try this... ". They still won't understand it, but at least the techniques will work again...

Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 02:34 PM

Quote:

Just to save time, we're changing the name of Aikido to "Ai-that stuff that doesn't exist- do"...




Good one!
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 06:33 PM

Quote:

crapola. I'm not saying I dont believe in Chi/Ki. But no way can it be used as a legitimate force in fighting someone in the chaos in fighting.


That's a contradiction isn't it? Crapola => you don't believe. So you're not saying you don't believe, you're just not sure.

So when you say "no way it can be used...", you really mean to say "this is beyond my level of comprehension and ability".... let's be honest. Beliefs have nothing to do with qi. Everyone and all living things have qi (in the context of what we're really talking about). The issue is "how much?". Inanimate objects (like calligraphy for e.g.) can be imbued with qi (as in vibrancy and vitality from a highly contextual and abstract POV) - but that's somewhat misleading and beyond the scope of this discussion, I think.

If you can't apply this in a semi-static format, obviously applying it in a dynamic format is going to be next to impossible.

FWIW, the "soft qi" tricks exhibited by the lama and Shi Ming are easily demonstrable. I can do it - but not to the same extent. I can also show someone how to do it in a few minutes. Whether they can then do it independently is up to them to figure it out. I'm certain a few others here who can do it - and much better than I. Bear in mind it is a body "trick", and only intended to demonstrate that the person has *some* skills.

So dive bunnies (i.e. the silly hopping actions by the recipients) aside, if you know how to apply it in a semi-static context, the jump to applying it in a martial context is a very short leap.

If you look closely at the first video, at the end with the lama and the old lady, the lama is "helping" her do it. Ignore the silly hopping and falling over by the receiver - that only serves to demonstrate he has no viable structure. So, whoever made the video either has no idea what is really happening or deliberately attempted to portray something other than what was really happening.

There were a few instances on that first video, where the lama has this bored or bemused look on his face - I'm guessing from the extravagant reactions by his "students".

So instead of looking at the uke's silly reactions, which are by no means any indication or intended proof of qi, look at what the person applying it is doing. The subtleties are all hidden in plain sight.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 07:20 PM

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related




Garbage. The first 30 seconds to a minute or so looks real enough, but after that........

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6p219fVyY&feature=related




Breaking demos, etc are simply tricks that have nothing to do with "ki".

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZteEs2Hrek&feature=related




"If you try our product.....etc" 'Nuff said.

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y&feature=related




More garbage.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 07:38 PM

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Garbage... Breaking demos, etc are simply tricks that have nothing to do with "ki".... More garbage.


You seem pretty certain Matt... perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "garbage" and why these tricks have nothing to do with "ki"?

Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"? And how is it that stuff can be broken on a person, or trucks driven over someone, or people breaking stuff? How does that work... IYO?
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 07:45 PM

Crapola as to the videos that I saw, not a contridiction of my belief in Qi as a life force.

"this is beyond my level of comprehension and ability"... Cute. There are many things beyond my comprehension and even more beyond my ability. Thats a fact of life for every human being on the planet.

Its funny how die hard believers of this mystic ability to project life energy into another to halt an aggressive motion can NOT be tested in a full contact environment. Nay sayers demand proof and all they get is long winded posts and essays on absolutely nothing of martial worth. Every video posted of such an act being pursued in a full contact environment shows the "chi masters" being spanked.

And if SOME were to do it not everyone is affected the same way. In fact some are not affected AT ALL. So what does that tell me? That it is not reliable. Lets be logical... If I connect a punch at full force to my opponents face I will do damage. If I shoot my chi blast at them they may feel it if they are sensitive to such an attack.

True Kara-te is for preserving life. If I want to protect and preserve my life against someone who wishes to end it do I a) utilize methods that causes immediate and lethal damage to my opponent or b) utilize something that fails the test on a routine basis.

I've visited a dojo who claimed many things. NONE OF THEM worked on me. And reasons why were explained away with nonsense. They could not stop my punches and kicks with sound and chi, they could not move me with chi. Can you explain why? I bet you can. My question is why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?

Humans as a species have existed for well over $2.5 million years just going back to the Paleolithic era. So you are telling me that NOW of all times during the human existence that we have the ability to use life energy in a marital way? Excuse me if I cough up *BS*.

Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?

Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?

Why? Because it is not reliable.

If you want to focus your attention to Qi, TCM, and other interests that is fine. But dont pretend and pawn this off as something that is a consistent combat proven martial ability.

While you're staring at the penny on the table hoping to move it with your mind, I'm hitting the bags and applying techniques on a resisting opponent.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 07:58 PM

Quote:

You seem pretty certain Matt... perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "garbage" and why these tricks have nothing to do with "ki"?




Sure, fair enough. "Garbage" as in not real; exagerrated; false. Nothing to do with ki as in "people that have no knowledge or understanding of ki can do the same tricks".

Quote:

Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"?




Nope - can you? J/K

Quote:

And how is it that stuff can be broken on a person, or trucks driven over someone, or people breaking stuff? How does that work... IYO?




Again, what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills. Some could say ki, some could say physics.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 08:21 PM

Quote:

Crapola as to the videos that I saw, not a contridiction of my belief in Qi as a life force.


So you "believe" Qi === "life force"??? Used in a specific context, qi does imply life force (loosely translated), but from a martial perspective, it's the "force" aspect and what you can do with it that's important. But of course you "knew" that... right?

Quote:

"this is beyond my level of comprehension and ability"... Cute. There are many things beyond my comprehension and even more beyond my ability. Thats a fact of life for every human being on the planet.


Yeah, I meant you can't do it - as in "no way can it be done..." (your words)

Quote:

Its funny how die hard believers of this mystic ability to project life energy into another to halt an aggressive motion can NOT be tested in a full contact environment. Nay sayers demand proof and all they get is long winded posts and essays on absolutely nothing of martial worth. Every video posted of such an act being pursued in a full contact environment shows the "chi masters" being spanked.


It's equally interesting how the critics can't see the martial value in these little tricks - and they are simply "little" tricks - coz they always need more data, more statistics and more evidence.

Quote:

True Kara-te is for preserving life.


"True" kara-te was derived from Shaolin-derived Buddhist practices, practices which involve the esoteric cultivation of qi. So if you're not au fait with such practices, are you practising "true" karate?

Quote:

Humans as a species have existed for well over $2.5 million years just going back to the Paleolithic era. So you are telling me that NOW of all times during the human existence that we have the ability to use life energy in a marital way? Excuse me if I cough up *BS*.


Uh huh... that would be using UP life force in a marital way...

Quote:

Why? Because it is not reliable.


Reliability is not the issue. The issue is one of efficacy and efficiency - i.e. how easily and quickly can you teach/train someone to use it. It is by far, easier and quicker to teach someone how to use external MA than it is to introspect and develop internally-focused MA.

Since you don't know how it works, or how to make it work, much less what IT is, of course it doesn't work for you. But saying that it is inconsistent, unreliable, or other BS doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Certainly doesn't invalidate it - you just need more "live" data.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 08:30 PM

Quote:

Sure, fair enough. "Garbage" as in not real; exagerrated; false. Nothing to do with ki as in "people that have no knowledge or understanding of ki can do the same tricks".


Your 2nd sentence is true to an extent - you don't need to know or understand it to make it work, but it helps to know and understand what you're doing, no? Otherwise, it's just monkey see, monkey do right? Which part was "garbage"? I'll agree, the dive bunny hopping silliness is garbage, but the person applying - is that part garbage... IYO? Why? Why not?

Quote:

Quote:

Better yet, perhaps you could also clarify what is "ki"?


Nope - can you? J/K


Well, if you can't define "ki" how do you know with any certainty if it is involved or not? Surely, one needs to at least know what one is talking about?

Quote:

Again, what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills. Some could say ki, some could say physics.


I agree. You don't need knowledge or belief in ki to explain how this works. Analyze it from a physics perspective. How does that work?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:10 PM

Quote:

Your 2nd sentence is true to an extent - you don't need to know or understand it to make it work, but it helps to know and understand what you're doing, no? Otherwise, it's just monkey see, monkey do right?




Sure, but my point is that knowledge of ki is not necessary or intrinsic to those demos. Physics can do the same thing.

Quote:

Which part was "garbage"? I'll agree, the dive bunny hopping silliness is garbage, but the person applying - is that part garbage... IYO? Why? Why not?




Sorry, don't understand the question. The person doesn't appear to be applying anything. Unless you were talking about the first thirty seconds of that video, which looked like Aikido to me. But even that part was physical technique, things that can be done without ki. IMHO.

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Well, if you can't define "ki" how do you know with any certainty if it is involved or not? Surely, one needs to at least know what one is talking about?




Well......

Quote:

Used in a specific context, qi does imply life force (loosely translated), but from a martial perspective, it's the "force" aspect and what you can do with it that's important.




Seems difficult to anyone to clarify, doesn't it? That kind of ambuguity of definition makes it easy to make it seem like people may not know what it is they are talking about.

One of the reasons I prefer to use the language of physics (what little I know), since it's much more precise.

Quote:

I agree. You don't need knowledge or belief in ki to explain how this works. Analyze it from a physics perspective. How does that work?




Are we still talking about that first video? After the opening section, there are no physics involved. If you are talking about some of the other demos like the bed of nails thing, that is a trick using surface area to spread the weight over many nails. Ask the guy to lie on a bed of ONE nail.

Board and brick-breaking are accomplished through similar concept in reverse (focusing impact area), along with impulse (duration of impact), etc. Physics concepts.

Related link for breaking demo info -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15948442

DISCLAIMER: MattJ is not a physicist. MattJ did not go to college, and barely graduated high-school.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:16 PM

Quote:

Harlan,
all these "chi wars" are started by people who don't know anything about it, don't believe in it, and are too lazy to go get some training to see if what they're "against" exists or not. They can't learn it in 5 minutes or google it and get the information they need, so it's "bunk" to them.




Why would you turn it into a personal attack? It's not. It's simply an observation of what people actually believe in. You see the same thing in different contexts throughout life,but never any evidence of anything provable.

Quote:

We have Aikido students all the time that take months or years to ever understand what ki is and how to use it. Just to save time, we're changing the name of Aikido to "Ai-that stuff that doesn't exist- do"... then, we'll change the training to only use strength. When the techniques don't work, we'll say... "try this... ". They still won't understand it, but at least the techniques will work again...






How about A-chi-do?

Techniques do work,when you actually touch people.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:19 PM

Do any of the internal-trained folk have/can find any chi-related videos that they think are good or representative of good chi/ki application? Google, YouTube, etc? Anything?
Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:22 PM

Matt,

You can't just circulate that secret stuff on the internet!!!

The chi-force police will make you go in to jumping convulsions through your cell phones.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:23 PM

Quote:

what is being attributed to ki can be done by folks with no knowledge or belief of it. Therfore, "ki" cannot be the only element that enables those types of skills




While I am in no way defending the videos, is it possible that someone could be able to use Ki/Chi/Ka (pick one) without understanding it or even knowing that is what is happening?
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:28 PM

Quote:

It's equally interesting how the critics can't see the martial value in these little tricks - and they are simply "little" tricks - coz they always need more data, more statistics and more evidence.





No because when you take the "chi master" out of his/her element of his/her OWN students and apply non-believers to the test in a full contact environment they get wrecked, spanked, beaten, dismantled, whooped, and knocked the F out.

Quote:

"True" kara-te was derived from Shaolin-derived Buddhist practices, practices which involve the esoteric cultivation of qi. So if you're not au fait with such practices, are you practising "true" karate?





No. It was derived from Ti (Indigenous Okinawan Fighting Method), and it was mixed with the Hard system of Chu'an Fa during the china trade. And it was then integrated with Japanese bujutsu during the occupation by the Satsuma clan. Kara-te had many influences and was not "derived" from a single budhist meditation method.

And where did this buddist meditation come from? India. Funny can't remember the last time a Penjak Silat practitioner tried to knock out someone with chi. Of course I could be wrong. Hey does anyone know if Dillman made his way to india yet?

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Reliability is not the issue. The issue is one of efficacy and efficiency - i.e. how easily and quickly can you teach/train someone to use it. It is by far, easier and quicker to teach someone how to use external MA than it is to introspect and develop internally-focused MA.




The fact that it is not consistent means it is crap.

It's about efficiency? How to efficiently get your a$$ whopped and knocked out? If so then I agree.

Quote:

Since you don't know how it works, or how to make it work, much less what IT is, of course it doesn't work for you. But saying that it is inconsistent, unreliable, or other BS doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Certainly doesn't invalidate it - you just need more "live" data.




More incoherent double talk about why your life's work still hasn't pushed the penny across the table.

I ask again:

Why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?

Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?

Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:32 PM

Quote:

Sure, but my point is that knowledge of ki is not necessary or intrinsic to those demos. Physics can do the same thing.


Which is precisely my point...

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The person doesn't appear to be applying anything. Unless you were talking about the first thirty seconds of that video, which looked like Aikido to me. But even that part was physical technique, things that can be done without ki. IMHO.


Yes, but if he doesn't APPEAR to be doing anything... WHAT is he doing? Analyze HOW he's doing it... I agree, physical technique can be done WITH or without ki. BUT that depends on how you define and understand ki - doesn't it? You follow?

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Seems difficult to anyone to clarify, doesn't it? That kind of ambuguity of definition makes it easy to make it seem like people may not know what it is they are talking about.


Remember, Chinese is a contextual language. The same ideogram can have several meanings - just like how certain words in the English language can have several meanings. The various meanings that we would be interested in, in a martial context, is "force" - of which "pressure", "gravity", "vectors", "momentum", "leverage" are all UNAMBIGUOUS physical terms relating to "force" that we are all familiar with.

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Are we still talking about that first video? After the opening section, there are no physics involved. If you are talking about some of the other demos like the bed of nails thing, that is a trick using surface area to spread the weight over many nails. Ask the guy to lie on a bed of ONE nail.... Board and brick-breaking are accomplished through similar concept in reverse (focusing impact area), along with impulse (duration of impact), etc. Physics concepts.


It's ALL physics... even after the opening section.... (ignore the bunny hopping antics - that's rubbish) So, I now ask you... what then is "ki"?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:34 PM



Quote:

Ka




Man, you just made my whole night.

"Go then....there are other worlds than these."
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:45 PM

Quote:

No. It was derived from Ti (Indigenous Okinawan Fighting Method), and it was mixed with the Hard system of Chu'an Fa during the china trade. And it was then integrated with Japanese bujutsu during the occupation by the Satsuma clan. Kara-te had many influences and was not "derived" from a single budhist meditation method.


And this hard system of quan fa originated from where, with what influences? Are you absolutely, positively certain that some of the exercises in karate are not derived (as in developed understanding and applied knowledge) from Buddhist qigong methods?

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The fact that it is not consistent means it is crap. It's about efficiency? How to efficiently get your a$$ whopped and knocked out? If so then I agree.



This is of course YOUR learned ignorant perspective. If you read more closely into what I wrote, you would realize I was indicating quite the opposite.

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Why do you dedicate your life teaching and training in something that is not absolute and then portray it as being something you can apply martially?


I can apply and have applied it martially. Just because you can't doesn't make it invalid.

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Why would the old Okinawan masters slam their fists onto a makiwara post well into their old age if they could just develop their chi in a combative way?


If you knew anything about qi, you would of course know that makiwara training and other hojo undo is basically aspects of qigong training. The ignorance is astounding.

Quote:

Why do the Shaolin monks spend time beating their bodies as part of iron body training when they could just spend their entire existence cultivating their chi to a point where they can stop aggressors with a simple jolt of energy?


Again, the level of ignorance is astounding.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 09:51 PM

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Which is precisely my point...




Sorry, you lost me there.

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Yes, but if he doesn't APPEAR to be doing anything... WHAT is he doing? Analyze HOW he's doing it... I agree, physical technique can be done WITH or without ki. BUT that depends on how you define and understand ki - doesn't it? You follow?




Sorry, I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think he is doing anything but maybe group hypnosis. Nothing physical that could be replicated on anyone that didn't believe in the trick to begin with.

Quote:

It's ALL physics... even after the opening section.... (ignore the bunny hopping antics - that's rubbish) So, I now ask you... what then is "ki"?




Well again, it could be anything in context, I guess. But I'll go ahead and throw my thoughts out for you to blast way on.

Ki, as related to martial arts, seems to be the physical dynamic between two opponents. Encompassing mostly physics, as I see it.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 10:01 PM

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Sorry, you lost me there.


It's ALL physics?

Quote:

Sorry, I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think he is doing anything but maybe group hypnosis. Nothing physical that could be replicated on anyone that didn't believe in the trick to begin with.


No, it's not group hypnosis... although his students should be soundly whipped for acting so. He is clearly demonstrating a physical skill. I know it is hard to see if you haven't see/felt it. The way it works is simple. It's the same thing as the exercise as I described in the Chi, Shoes and Metal Parts thread. It's to do with redirection of forces - input force, reaction force.

Quote:

Ki, as related to martial arts, seems to be the physical dynamic between two opponents. Encompassing mostly physics, as I see it.


So what's so hard to believe? Does "ki" exist? I'll give you a clue. You can't ai-ki with inanimate objects, coz they have no ki. You can't ai-ki with someone who is simply standing there not attacking you.

Like Tony (Saisho) said, ki/chi/ka... it's just a word. We could call it "kaka" if you like. Does it invalidate its "existence" simply because we now refer to it as "kaka"?
Posted by: oldman

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 10:33 PM

A man born blind comes to me and asks me "What is this thing called green?" How does someone describe the color green to someone who was born blind? One uses analogies. So I say,"The color green is like soft music." "Oh," he says "like soft music." "Yes" I say "soothing like soft music". So a second blind man comes to me and asks me "What is the color green". I tell him "it's something soft like satin,very soft and soothing to the touch". So the next day I notice that the too blind men are bashing each other over the head with bottles. One is saying "it's soft like music": and the other is saying, "It's soft like satin". And on it goes. Neither of them knows what they are talking about, because if they did they'd shut up. It's that bad, it really is. It's even worse, because one day you give the blind man his sight, and he sitting in a garden, and hes looking all around him, and you say to him, "Well, now you know what the color green is." And he answers, "Thats true. I heard some of it this morning!"
Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 11:05 PM

LOL Oldman!!

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And this hard system of quan fa originated from where, with what influences? Are you absolutely, positively certain that some of the exercises in karate are not derived (as in developed understanding and applied knowledge) from Buddhist qigong methods?





Are you SURE they are?

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This is of course YOUR learned ignorant perspective. If you read more closely into what I wrote, you would realize I was indicating quite the opposite.





So his perspective is ignorant because it's different than yours? Which is not explainable or proveable to other people than chi students?

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I can apply and have applied it martially. Just because you can't doesn't make it invalid.




When will someone show us this? When oh when???

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If you knew anything about qi, you would of course know that makiwara training and other hojo undo is basically aspects of qigong training. The ignorance is astounding.





More personal attacks on all of uS ignorant folks.....I feel loved.

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Again, the level of ignorance is astounding.




Are you talking about the video's?

Can anyone here say they have been moved without being touched by way of chi/ki/qi/ka/kaka/poopoo?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/19/07 11:19 PM

Well, Brian, can you honestly tell me karate has had NO influences from Shaolin Buddhist practices? Absolutely none whatsoever? That the katas, hojo undo and other aspects of karate training have not been influenced or derived from such practices? That the breathing, stretching, twisting, spiraling movements of sanchin and other kata have no other conceivable basis to their purpose, other than the "obvious" externalities?

As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.

Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?

BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 12:28 AM

I continue to be amazed that all the experts in calling chi or ki have no experience in it's use, but are supposed to be "practitioners of karate". Karate is momentary applications of ki, unlike the redirections of aikido and jujutsu, but focusing the breath and timing of techniques none the less. You twits wonder why "Old Okinawan masters pounded makiwaras", it was to learn to time their motion and breath together... duh... Just for extra added attractions, they stepped into the makiwara to time their foot movements into the equation...

These were fighting "systems", not collections of individual techniques like a box of parts to put together a bicycle. I would venture to say that most of you "karate practitioners" pay little if any attention to the shape of your arm when making your techniques, which is another clue as to how much you actually know about your art.

Knowing which master farted at the dojo picnic isn't "martial arts history" or "technical knowledge" of your art. Understanding the underlying principles of movements, techniques, carriage, body structure, methods of execution, training, and yes, the ever popular "applications of ki" in your techniques is where your art lies. If you aren't practicing those things, you're only dancing around.

The International Traditional Karate Federation can give you guidelines for what your karate should have in it, and I'm afraid many of you would find out your teachers didn't have the goods... much less YOUR stuff...

If that's insulting, tough $***... it's the truth, and I've been around MA for 45 years... so I've seen more than most of you guys will ever know.

There was a lot of conversation about the old guy with the bunny hopping monkeys, but watching his movements... he was in control from the beginning to end of his techniques. The fact that his students over-played the effects of his redirections doesn't negate the fact that his movements controlled theirs. That's what Eyrie was alluding to in his statement about the video.

The Bill Moyers video mentioned his "vibrating palm", which is quite well known in Tai Chi circles, and the "shake" that is used in fa jing, while not looking like much, is an explosion of energy. You might not feel much from a tai chi master until he jerks your arm out of the socket with one of those simple shakes.

If you have no training in arts using ki, you're only proving your ignorance by telling those who have trained in those arts that they're wrong. I'm sure you could tell the Indy racers what they're doing wrong, and tell Tiger Woods how he should be playing golf.

I used to race sports cars, but I don't go around telling Jeff Gordon how he should be driving at Daytona. For the most part, the people I've been associated with in martial arts have been good people, but I can sense a change in both the attitudes and quality of the practitioners, especially in more "non traditional" arts. Everybody thinks they're a bad-a$$, and everybody thinks that because they have a keyboard, they are experts. Unfortunately, google can't teach you a thing about ki.. it can only find articles and internet chatter about it.

My teacher taught me that I should always have a "student's mind"... constantly learning, testing the information, and putting it into my knowledge bank. He never mentioned anything about calling people liars, or telling them that they were full of crap because he didn't buy their story. Our way of testing things was to try them and find the best teachers we could find to train us in them. Interestingly enough, none of those teachers had that "your stuff is crap" attitude either.

If you don't believe in chi, or ki, fine... don't believe in it. Clearly, you aren't being trained in its use, so like driving at Daytona, I don't expect you to have the skills. That doesn't negate anything that anyone who does train in it has... they simply have a different view, and more knowledge of its application. It's your loss...

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 12:50 AM

oh boy. what have you got yourself into now eyrie

I think Harlan's idea of naming 'chi' threads based on the date is a smart idea. Think a year from now when a noob does a search, they will be overwhelmed, and resort to google to give less hits... hopefully, they won't be unintentionally diverted: CHI - Closed Head Injury


let's do a quick experiment: I did a search on this site for the oldest Chi argument (damn when that forum upgrade deleted many posts...!)
from exactly 3 years ago, almost to the day: "sex and chi"
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...rue#Post7063740


I'd say, the forum collective has made a bit of progress. At least people aren't still equating chi to 'mojo' (perhaps inspired at the time from Austin Power's movies)....certainly gives the phrase 'chi blast' a whole new meaning, hey bayby.


however, others might choose to look towards a western science view in the use of the word 'Chi':
The Chi Machine (tm)


which at least does get to the heart of what chi is:

If it feels good, call it whatever you like, bay-by.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 01:12 AM

WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself I once saw a bumpersticker: "Just because you think you are different, does not make you an artist."

anyway, there is one glaring hole in your comparrison: People have actually SEEN Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods do what they do. All we've seen is your level of skill composing sentances...which really is pretty good, btw.

but, the only thing you've managed to prove in those sentances is that cultivating Chi, does not serve to regulate anger or condecendence - but does seem to cut-off one's sense of smell when it comes to their own excrement.

whooo...
Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 01:29 AM

Quote:

Well, Brian, can you honestly tell me karate has had NO influences from Shaolin Buddhist practices? Absolutely none whatsoever? That the katas, hojo undo and other aspects of karate training have not been influenced or derived from such practices? That the breathing, stretching, twisting, spiraling movements of sanchin and other kata have no other conceivable basis to their purpose, other than the "obvious" externalities?




Sure it does, I was there!! Weren't you?

Quote:

As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.

Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?

BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...




Dang! You did!! Simply amazing!!!

I got oldman's post, did you?

As I was just commenting in general... the level of ignorance is simply astounding. If you view that as a personal assault, then perhaps you need to take a good hard look elsewhere.

Or, maybe... just maybe... have I just disrupted your emotional qi from a distance? After all, if you can't touch it, taste it, feel it, see it, hear it... it ain't "real" right?

BTW, I wonder how many more heads oldman's post went over...


Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 01:39 AM

Quote:

I continue to be amazed that all the experts in calling chi or ki have no experience in it's use, but are supposed to be "practitioners of karate". Karate is momentary applications of ki, unlike the redirections of aikido and jujutsu, but focusing the breath and timing of techniques none the less. You twits wonder why "Old Okinawan masters pounded makiwaras", it was to learn to time their motion and breath together... duh... Just for extra added attractions, they stepped into the makiwara to time their foot movements into the equation...

These were fighting "systems", not collections of individual techniques like a box of parts to put together a bicycle. I would venture to say that most of you "karate practitioners" pay little if any attention to the shape of your arm when making your techniques, which is another clue as to how much you actually know about your art.




How much do you know about my art? What and how I practice? You don't, you just sit there ASSuming. In karate, I actually touch people.

Quote:

Knowing which master farted at the dojo picnic isn't "martial arts history" or "technical knowledge" of your art. Understanding the underlying principles of movements, techniques, carriage, body structure, methods of execution, training, and yes, the ever popular "applications of ki" in your techniques is where your art lies. If you aren't practicing those things, you're only dancing around.

The International Traditional Karate Federation can give you guidelines for what your karate should have in it, and I'm afraid many of you would find out your teachers didn't have the goods... much less YOUR stuff...

If that's insulting, tough $***... it's the truth, and I've been around MA for 45 years... so I've seen more than most of you guys will ever know.




Pfft...self grandizing much Grady? That wins points. You have been chi-blasting people for 45yrs and you don't have it on video???



Quote:

There was a lot of conversation about the old guy with the bunny hopping monkeys, but watching his movements... he was in control from the beginning to end of his techniques. The fact that his students over-played the effects of his redirections doesn't negate the fact that his movements controlled theirs. That's what Eyrie was alluding to in his statement about the video.




His movement controlled their's? Yet they felt the need to overact?? Sure,that makes sense.

Quote:

The Bill Moyers video mentioned his "vibrating palm", which is quite well known in Tai Chi circles, and the "shake" that is used in fa jing, while not looking like much, is an explosion of energy. You might not feel much from a tai chi master until he jerks your arm out of the socket with one of those simple shakes.

If you have no training in arts using ki, you're only proving your ignorance by telling those who have trained in those arts that they're wrong. I'm sure you could tell the Indy racers what they're doing wrong, and tell Tiger Woods how he should be playing golf.




Indy racers touch their cars who do not act. Tiger Woods hits hit golfballs with a club which does not overact either. Try again.

Quote:

I used to race sports cars, but I don't go around telling Jeff Gordon how he should be driving at Daytona. For the most part, the people I've been associated with in martial arts have been good people, but I can sense a change in both the attitudes and quality of the practitioners, especially in more "non traditional" arts. Everybody thinks they're a bad-a$$, and everybody thinks that because they have a keyboard, they are experts. Unfortunately, google can't teach you a thing about ki.. it can only find articles and internet chatter about it


My teacher taught me that I should always have a "student's mind"... constantly learning, testing the information, and putting it into my knowledge bank. He never mentioned anything about calling people liars, or telling them that they were full of crap because he didn't buy their story. Our way of testing things was to try them and find the best teachers we could find to train us in them. Interestingly enough, none of those teachers had that "your stuff is crap" attitude either.




Is that why you say you know more now than we ever will? Sure! I tell my instructors the same thing! Students mind my a$$.


Quote:

If you don't believe in chi, or ki, fine... don't believe in it. Clearly, you aren't being trained in its use, so like driving at Daytona, I don't expect you to have the skills. That doesn't negate anything that anyone who does train in it has... they simply have a different view, and more knowledge of its application. It's your loss...






Please refrain from namecalling. I won't be able to sleep now knowing that I am just a dancing twit who knows nothing about my martial art.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 02:16 AM

Quote:

His movement controlled their's? Yet they felt the need to overact?? Sure,that makes sense.


The problem is, people choose to see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and think what they want to think. Like those idiots pulling the hopping bunny antics, some people here need a smack upside the head...

This kind of sloppy thinking is about on par with the hopping bunny antics... which reminds me of the following joke:

Quote:

Monkey Experiment Proves Corporate Policy Process

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, and all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon the monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that’s the way it’s always been done around here.

And that, my friends, is how a company policy begins.


Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 02:49 AM

Quote:

1. lama has *some* skillz... but his New-Agey students are all f**kn idiots.
2. Classic hard qigong demos





Just a suggestion as regards ki and training methods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related
Hi
There seems to be the never ending conflicts on here. Just a question. Lama ? is using his shoulder at 2.37 .

Can I ask how do some of you guys physically/ mentaly train the technique ?


The answers might clear up a few arguments and thoughts

Jude.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 03:27 AM

That shoulder check is actually a very good technique (but of course not as it's shown on the video as nearly non-touch nonsense). Surprized to see myself typing it, but as eyrie and WT mentioned, try hard to subtract what the uke jester fool is doing, then imagine that side check with full contact and intent. In 2-person drills it literally sends a person slamming into a wall. (which is a good thread idea in it's own right: remember, there isn't just the floor you can hit people with )

Some football professionals cross-train tai chi for a reason


When is the appropriate time to 'use' it? what dynamics and timing are going on, etc - is involved to explain it, but simple to show in 5 minutes. Could also be it's own thread...and without ever mentioning the 'c' word. lol
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 03:27 AM

It looks like "kao" in taiji. I think I get what you're asking. It's different to using "shoulder muscle".... The "tell" if someone is using the "shoulder muscle", e.g. if they move their arm from their shoulders, is if they raise their shoulders.

Physically and mentally, training is usually slow and "soft". As you get the hang of it, it's neither slow nor soft.
Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 04:07 AM

Quote:

That shoulder check is actually a very good technique (but of course not as it's shown on the video as nearly non-touch nonsense). Surprized to see myself typing it, but as eyrie and WT mentioned, try hard to subtract what the uke jester fool is doing, then imagine that side check with full contact and intent. In 2-person drills it literally sends a person slamming into a wall. (which is a good thread idea in it's own right: remember, there isn't just the floor you can hit people with )

Some football professionals cross-train tai chi for a reason


When is the appropriate time to 'use' it? what dynamics and timing are going on, etc - is involved to explain it, but simple to show in 5 minutes. Could also be it's own thread...and without ever mentioning the 'c' word. lol




Quote:



looks like "kao" in taiji. I think I get what you're asking. It's different to using "shoulder muscle".... The "tell" if someone is using the "shoulder muscle", e.g. if they move their arm from their shoulders, is if they raise their shoulders.

Physically and mentally, training is usually slow and "soft". As you get the hang of it, it's neither slow nor soft.





Excellent

You two agreeing
So how are you training it?
So how about the route of training to be taken if somebody was intending to initialy to train the technique using a tree? The tree type that is middle aged, deep roots, not rotten and hard as a normal tree should be.
More than likely the tree will be in an area where no one can see the training and reach the wrong idea and one that dogs dont have a habit of using.

Full force?.

As per some of the tradional arts trained and indeed still train

I should imagine to use it in training using a tree requires isometric and isotonic strength, the correct technique plus mental will? (Chi?) and the right kind of tree.

What are your collective thoughts?
Discussing (maybe) at a later date with what seems to be some of the other short range techniques found in both arts that you two( and others) experienced practioners practice?

Start a new thread?
Could I suggest
Maybe the initial training methods? Of the shoulder check? From all styles perspective ? Power generation? etc,
then
The counter technique to the technique redirection of energy ( Chi?)
Then
On to where and how to use it against a restisting opponent?

Maybe?

Jude

Just a footnote.
I Know and understand that not all arts/ practioners are aiming or want to aim at the hardcore methods.
I do.
That doesnt mean to say I think everybody else should or is meant to.


Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 06:13 AM

I don't understand what you mean by "train technique using a tree"? Do you mean hit the tree? Poor tree...

It's a bit complicated and lengthy to go into any detail to do any justice. It's far easier to show and let you feel it in person.

Just quickly, mental will is yi - intent. Various mental visualization exercises are used to strengthen this.

Qi is something else altogether. If you just stand in a relaxed manner, shoulder width apart, arms by your side. Sink your weight, stand like the top of your head is suspended from the ceiling by an invisible cord, bend your knees slightly, and imagine your tail bone is being pulled into the ground by another invisible cord. "Sit" like you're about to sit in an invisible chair. Breathe normally.

After a while, you will start to notice your arms lift and fall slightly as you breathe in and out. That's the qi. Normally, this is weak, obviously.... since we don't normally move this way, it's entirely foreign. The idea is to strengthen the feeling of the "pull and grab" on all parts of your body, so that when one part moves, the whole moves. BTW, that's what "breathing thru the skin" means. It feels like your skin is being pulled and grabbed with your breath cycle.

Now compare this to the opening sequence of the Yang-shi taiji form - "lift hands". Most people simply lift their arms and hands - usually initiated from the shoulder joint. Instead, try lifting your hands in the same way as when you were standing above. Now, try and catch the feeling of doing this, throughout the entire form!

It is quite possible, of course, to do a form using what most people would consider "normal" and relaxed movement. That's fine too. But it goes back to what I was talking about - unless you know and understand what it is you are training, chances are, you're not training it. You might *think* you are, but it's no different to normal "external" movement, even though you're doing it in a "relaxed" manner. You'd be better off working out at the gym or dancing or something... seriously...

How to use against a resisting opponent? That's jumping the gun a little, but I'll try.

Firstly, it's stupid to struggle against someone who is resisting - what happens is it becomes a contest of strength. Obviously the stronger person will win. My philosophy is, if they want to win so badly, I let them. Ever heard of the classical phrase "invest in loss"? That's what it means. This is the hardest thing for the alphas and betas (i.e. alpha wannabees) to comprehend....

The best way to explain is by using an example.

You know "tug-o-war"? If you both pull against each other, that's resisting. However, if you suddenly let go, what happens? If the rope were a rod and you're both pushing against each other, that's resistance. What if you suddenly turned and let go of the rod? What happens? Ideally, you want to find the path of least resistance, and not give your opponent any opportunity to resist.

BTW, bear in mind that all of this is only a very small part of the "bigger picture". I would suggest you talk to your teacher and ask these questions of him/her. If he/she knows anything (and you will know if they do, or if they're just giving you a load of BS), it is quicker for them to show you.

Once you feel the power, I guarantee you, you will never want to go back to "external".
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 06:34 AM

Quote:

WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself




No, and I never said that. YOU and your other minions who have no knowledge of using chi puport yourselves as experts in all kinds of martial arts, and yet completely discount the use. Chi is also a connection... I can be using chi and be disconnected, and have no result... I can use chi and have a "bad" connection, and the techniques won't work... I can have a "good connection", and throw your a$$ out the dojo door or through the wall.

Take the time to go to Aikido class with your kids, Ed... you might actually learn something. As Eyrie said, "once you learn the internal method, you won't ever want to go external"... it's a simple rule... get some training and you might learn something. That's not arrogance or condecension... just good sense...

By the way, I just posted that so you guys would go ahead and blow off your usual $*** at us... it was just a matter of time, and I didn't want you to have any "pent up feelings"...

Brian... I'm an s$$ and you're an idiot... I guess you win... get some sleep

Eyrie, this subject is like talking to a rock with these guys... when you get through, the rock won't be any smarter about it...



Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 07:06 AM

breathe. and then practice laughing at yourself sometimes.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 07:14 AM

eyrie, if someone trains the same principles you mention - without ever using any terms, or understanding any theory/conceptual models you are familiar with ...would you consider it the same thing if you saw/felt it? In other words, in your opinion, does 'Chi'/'Ki' have to be in your terms to be understood?
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 07:24 AM

Terms? What terms? What theory/conceptual model are you talking about? Can you please clarify? I'm not sure I understand the question....

The thing is, none of this is absolute - it's isn't a black or white thing. There's all these different shades of gray. If I touched hands with someone I would instantly know where their power is coming from and what they are going to do. But that's really basic level stuff. There's much higher levels that I have not yet even begun to scratch the surface of.

So I have NO idea what the heck you are talking about.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 07:52 AM

Actually, I think I get what you mean now... if you mean will I know if someone else knows this stuff without them talking about it in my terms.... sure. Of course. There is a commonality which is inescapable for those who know and understand - remember what you said about it being in an exclusive club? It's exactly like that.

I've seen the Bossman's videos, and read what he's written. I know he knows, even though he explains it slightly differently. Haven't seen BP, but I know he knows too. Ditto with Grady. LastGuru (whom I haven't seen here for a while) knows too. I'm sure it works the other way too.

Or as BP said before, maybe I'm just theorizing how this all works... so if I ever touched hands with him, he'd know instantly whether I was full of sh!t or not....
Posted by: Gavin

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 08:24 AM

Mr Chin, Ashes Sifu, also knows. Watching him move is so much like seeing Bossman move its lovely. This is absolute peach of clip that Ashe put on youtube, theres is a very distinct gem of information in this clip. This is how Bossman teaches, very slowly, very methodically, very mindfully and practically. No Chi balls, no NTKO's, no B.S. This is what IMA's are all about in my opinion. If you look at the very end where Mr Chin mentions the drop down to come up, look at how he uproots the guy, thats an example of what Bossman calls the "Wedge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuF6hLUzIYM

Now imagine that uprooting being done at the speed Mr Chin is doing his form at here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15971247

It's not magic, its not mystical and it's most definately not B.S. The clips posted at the start of this thread are garbage, showmanship and theatrics. Some of the guys may have skills, but they cheapen it with the misdirection and idiotic prancing round by their students.

If you really want to see what real IMA's are about watch Ashes clips on Youtube with Mr Chin. Apart from Bossman, hw's the only one I've seen to really look like they can do the job.

Here is Ashe's page (big thanks for sharing this stuff by the Ashe! )

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ashehiggs
Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 09:41 AM

Quote:

I don't understand what you mean by "train technique using a tree"? Do you mean hit the tree? Poor tree...





Hi
Yes I am afraid that is what I mean.
Using trees as training aids(amongst other things) is done by trad people who use the techniques found in forms as effective fighting methods. The technique of Kao is in forms. I think internal means mind but the external is still needed.



Hi
Wrist Twister
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take the time to go to Aikido class with your kids, Ed... you might actually learn something. As Eyrie said, "once you learn the internal method, you won't ever want to go external"... it's a simple rule... get some training and you might learn something. That's not arrogance or condecension... just good sense...
By the way, I just posted that so you guys would go ahead and blow off your usual $*** at us... it was just a matter of time, and I didn't want you to have any "pent up feelings"...
Brian... I'm an s$$ and you're an idiot... I guess you win... get some sleep
Eyrie, this subject is like talking to a rock with these guys... when you get through, the rock won't be any smarter about it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi
Aikido being purely internal?

This is the part I dont quite grasp.
The founder of aikido spent a long time working the fields
hand digging, and everything that goes with it. This would mean physical strength. I dont doubt his skill ability from what I have learned but he would still have had physical conditioning.

Jude
Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 10:01 AM

Quote:

Mr Chin, Ashes Sifu, also knows. Watching him move is so much like seeing Bossman move its lovely. This is absolute peach of clip that Ashe put on youtube, theres is a very distinct gem of information in this clip. This is how Bossman teaches, very slowly, very methodically, very mindfully and practically. No Chi balls, no NTKO's, no B.S. This is what IMA's are all about in my opinion. If you look at the very end where Mr Chin mentions the drop down to come up, look at how he uproots the guy, thats an example of what Bossman calls the "Wedge":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuF6hLUzIYM

Now imagine that uprooting being done at the speed Mr Chin is doing his form at here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15971247

If you really want to see what real IMA's are about watch Ashes clips on Youtube with Mr Chin. Apart from Bossman, hw's the only one I've seen to really look like they can do the job.

Here is Ashe's page (big thanks for sharing this stuff by the Ashe! )

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ashehiggs




Mr Chin looks like a good knowledgable instructor. He also looks like he is physicaly strong. External strength by some form of weight training. Combination of internal and external perhaps?

To my mind at the moment chi is something I dont understand.

What I do understand is that seemingly some fighting arts seem to miss other things from their training and even though the techniques exist in that arts forms it seems doubtfull the techniques could be used.

Then they seem not to be considered fighting arts by people in general.

I will leave the thoughts about chi to the practioners of chinese medicine for the time being.

If it does people good then thats a good thing.

Jude
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 12:28 PM

Quote:

Aikido being purely internal?




No martial art is all internal. Physical movements require some adaptation of external skills, but how they are done and how the energy used is applied is the "internal" part. There is a difference between being "fit" and being "external". "Getting in shape" is necessary for any physical activity (except keyboard mastery) so having a fit body gives you a "good vessel" to work with.

Quote:

This would mean physical strength. I dont doubt his skill ability from what I have learned but he would still have had physical conditioning.




Where in the internal arts is there anything that teaches you not to be fit and strong? Do you use that as your technique... no... but there's nothing wrong with having strength, you only have to "unlearn" how to use it to use your internal strength.

I constantly tell people to "relax harder" when they're trying to muscle techniques... but I've never told one of them that they shouldn't lift weights, run, or do anything that's physical training. The better shape you're in, the better your chi flow is, and for the most part, your general health. The days I'm not in the dojo, I'm in the gym using the machines.... I just need to relax harder...

Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 12:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

WT: ...meaning you are on the same level with Chi knowledge as Jeff Gordon and Tiger Woods and the rest of the forum are just spectators of 'real' martial artists? way to go. you really know how to alienate yourself




No, and I never said that. YOU and your other minions who have no knowledge of using chi puport yourselves as experts in all kinds of martial arts, and yet completely discount the use. Chi is also a connection... I can be using chi and be disconnected, and have no result... I can use chi and have a "bad" connection, and the techniques won't work... I can have a "good connection", and throw your a$$ out the dojo door or through the wall.

Take the time to go to Aikido class with your kids, Ed... you might actually learn something. As Eyrie said, "once you learn the internal method, you won't ever want to go external"... it's a simple rule... get some training and you might learn something. That's not arrogance or condecension... just good sense...

By the way, I just posted that so you guys would go ahead and blow off your usual $*** at us... it was just a matter of time, and I didn't want you to have any "pent up feelings"...

Brian... I'm an s$$ and you're an idiot... I guess you win... get some sleep

Eyrie, this subject is like talking to a rock with these guys... when you get through, the rock won't be any smarter about it...








Hi Grady! Just one of the minions here. Just one of the dancing twits and now an idiot I guess,yee haw. Could you calm down a little?

Can you move someone with your chi...without touching them? Can anyone? Can you project your chi into someone else without touching them? Make them convulse?

How am I supposed to buy the rest of the video,but overlook all the antics?

I'm not claiming any superiority to any style. I'm just trying to understand what they are doing there.

I understand the use of energy as in sanchin kata. Using your energy to move your opponent,but this requires actual contact,power generation. It doesn't rely on anything mystical that only works on certain people.
Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 12:57 PM

Everthing you wrote was clearly put and I understand.




There was a written discussion on a Goju website for a Goju kata on the "vibrating" that the chinese instructor was doing in the video posted by Gavin.
I will have to come back to that at some time as I havent realy grasped it yet.
I think that was the use of chi as internal energy?
Plenty of time though.
Years even.



Jude
Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 01:00 PM

I guess I'm just stupid.
Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 01:47 PM

Quote:

I guess I'm just stupid.




Dont worry.

My head spins. Going to take years all this.
I think if chi is related to the thought process then there is something in it.

Quote ( not mine)
(This isnt aimed at the therapeutic aspect of some martial arts)

Those who make over-liberal use of the concept of chi in their teachings of applications are;
Deliberately deceiving
They know to little of their art therefore compensate
Or they themselves have been deceived.

Personaly I think the people who do over play chi are full of B/S.
In the video, the new age types over played the techniques.
The guy doing them I dont think did. Not his fault he is surrounded by them. Some decent looking women there?
Food for thought?
Naaaa be to much hassle. The new age women that is.

Jude
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 02:17 PM

no worries Brian. here's the no-win logic: when someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they believe in Chi - it's attributed to them understanding internal concepts.

If someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they DON'T believe in Chi concepts...well then, they have no clue what real MA is all about.


see...people here are being judged and categorized by their beliefs, not by their skill. If you believe and use the term Chi, then you are 'in' and what you are training is good.
If you don't use the term or if you say it's bunk, then you are an external, knuckle-dragging, meatheaded, cyber-warring troglodite.

see how that works?
Posted by: jude33

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 02:41 PM

Quote:

no worries Brian. here's the no-win logic: when someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they believe in Chi - it's attributed to them understanding internal concepts.

If someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they DON'T believe in Chi concepts...well then, they have no clue what real MA is all about.


see...people here are being judged and categorized by their beliefs, not by their skill. If you believe and use the term Chi, then you are 'in' and what you are training is good.
If you don't use the term or if you say it's bunk, then you are an external, knuckle-dragging, meatheaded, cyber-warring troglodite.

see how that works?






My limited student thoughts.
External art based knuckle dragging meathead methods have their place.
Banging the different body parts( with in reason??) against a tree has its place. Going back in time to our forefathers
(according to scientists) and clinging to trees has its place.
Isometric training has its place.
Heaving huge weights has its place.
Wacking the arms against other arms and objects has its place.
Training kata to fit the bunkia (which ever form) has its place other wise the bunkia doesnt work.
On a higher level the thought process has its place.
Eating correctly has its place ( The founder of Aikido was a pure example)
Maybe chi(not the B/S stuff) has its place?? I will ponder on that one at a later date.

Jude
Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 03:02 PM

Come on Ed be part of the crowd:

Posted by: Raul Perez

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 03:05 PM

However:

Posted by: BrianS

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 03:06 PM

Quote:

no worries Brian. here's the no-win logic: when someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they believe in Chi - it's attributed to them understanding internal concepts.

If someone hits hard, makes it look easy and says they DON'T believe in Chi concepts...well then, they have no clue what real MA is all about.


see...people here are being judged and categorized by their beliefs, not by their skill. If you believe and use the term Chi, then you are 'in' and what you are training is good.
If you don't use the term or if you say it's bunk, then you are an external, knuckle-dragging, meatheaded, cyber-warring troglodite.

see how that works?




I guess I'm in with the last part and that's ok with me.
I believe I can hit moderately hard for my size and I don't attribute any of it to chi,just hard work and repetition. No need to glorify it with one zillion year old terms that make me seem more that what I really am.

Meatheaded troglodite!!!

How much chi is released after the Thanksgiving meal?
Posted by: Bossman

Re: more chi power!!! - 11/20/07 03:28 PM

Surely the chi thing doesn't make any difference? Someone can either hit hard/ be effective or whatever - or not. If their training method works for them - fine. I just let people feel for themselves the results of my training methods from me and my students and that speaks for itself.

It seems like the 3 letter word has become a four letter word to others.