For the sake of learning it
Posted by: tkd_high_green
For the sake of learning it - 11/16/07 09:18 PM
At my school, when a student reaches 2nd dan, a very interesting thing happens. For the first time in our MA training, we are given the option to pick the patterns we would like to learn. There are four recognized 2nd dan patterns in the chang hon style, yet we are only required to learn three.
Juche is typically learned by the more athletic and flexible students, while Ko-dang is typically learned by the, shall we say, more grounded students.
Last weekend, I had the opportunity to discuss patterns with the instructor of another school in my area, and his decision to change several of the patterns learned at his school to WTF patterns. His reasoning, "Why have a student learn a pattern that they have no chance of ever doing well?"
Is it better to have a student focus on a pattern that they will eventually be able to do well, or make them work on a pattern knowing that they will probably never do it well?
And given a choice, which would you choose to learn?
Laura
Posted by: harlan
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/16/07 10:02 PM
I was shown all the katas on my first day, and given the choice of learning either beginner/training kata first, or going straight to classical. I chose classical, and am taught them as fast as possible. I currently suck at all of them (my opinion)...but if my teacher died tomorrow I could muster on with what I know. Very few get the opportunity to have such input, and I've been told on other forums that it isn't traditional in a 'real dojo'. Screw it.
I say...each student has to pick their own way...the way that is right for them.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/17/07 08:48 AM
That is a bit hard for me to understand. In AKK, there is no choice about learning forms - everyone has to learn them all. Black belts are responsible for knowing (and being able to teach) all the forms up to their level.
Posted by: cxt
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/17/07 01:52 PM
TKD
If given the choices you list above--ie based upon body type.
I would pick the "extra" kata/pattern/hung/form that would be seen as the LEAST suited to my body-type.
I think it would be really helpful and challangeing to work on a pattern from a "different" perspective.
In that situation its what I would do......then again, I spend a good part of my free time climbing high rocks just for fun....so my perspective could, at best, be considered "questionable."
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/17/07 06:10 PM
I'm glad I didn't have a choice! No one kata is my favorite, nor am I markedly better at one than another.
Personally I think people tend to work at their strengths, and ignoe their weaknesses. Perhaps the idea here was to gear the students towards tournament competition.
Posted by: tkd_high_green
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/17/07 11:19 PM
Matt, Not every black belt is an instructor or has desire to be an instructor, and in our case there are occasionally some students due to injury or age that would be incapable of doing juches more challenging moves.
Like the black belt discussion going on right now, I can see modifying the curriculum if someone has a physical disability that prevents them from being able to do something. At one point, due to an injury to my foot, I would have been unable to do the various jumping moves in that pattern.
Ironfoot, tournament competition could very well have been part of the reason, however as you said, people tend to work toward their strengths. Would it make more sense then to focus on your strengths and do them well, or focus on your weaknesses and maybe do them ok?
Laura
Posted by: Ronin1966
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/18/07 10:25 AM
Hello Laura:
A very odd choice.... the goal of bone-fide kata, hyung, poomose...perhaps its sole goal is to unravel their mysteries, their whispers, again, and again.
Knowing how without the why is a horrible exercise in foolishness. Having not been given those tools by that point IMV shows an indication of a very, very different mindset, or more correctly respectfully its summary lack.
By whatever the Korean equivelent of Second Degree Black Belt, one hopes I would have been taught how to understand movement, structure. Prey tell what is so alien about any of those forms that such they will never be ~well done~
?
Respectfully puzzled
Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/18/07 10:36 AM
Hello Laura:
P.S. Any chance you have
two links which show what you would consider good Juche and then good Ko-dang
Jeff
Posted by: Supremor
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/18/07 02:47 PM
Quote:
Hello Laura:
P.S. Any chance you have two links which show what you would consider good Juche and then good Ko-dang
Not that I want to steal Laura's thunder or anything, but I have dug up two videos of what I would consider well performed patterns.
first, Juche performed by Jaroslaw Suska, ITF patterns world champion. I'd say it's pretty flawless, or at least I've never seen anybody perform it as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQX6TCXuQp4
Second, Ko-dang performed by a Norwegian 3rd degree. Pretty darn good I'd say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X7lrrEswyk
Posted by: Supremor
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/18/07 02:55 PM
Quote:
Matt, Not every black belt is an instructor or has desire to be an instructor, and in our case there are occasionally some students due to injury or age that would be incapable of doing juches more challenging moves.
Now, this is where I disagree with you Laura. While I don't expect every black belt to be a great teacher, I at least expect them to know and be able to teach the entire curriculum up to black belt, or 1-2 degrees below their own Black belt rank. Without at least knowing the pattern well technically speaking, it would be very difficult to teach a student the pattern.
That is to say, perhaps a student only learns 3 of 4 patterns at 2nd degree, he/she then becomes a 3rd of 4th degree, sets up their own school and a 2nd degree comes to train with them, hoping to learn their patterns. The instructor is then not able to teach the student all the patterns- isn't that the same as LOSING part of the TKD curriculum as successive generations of instructors never learn one of the patterns.
In conclusion then, I think instructors should always try to teach the whole curriculum, because their students are the instructors of tomorrow.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/19/07 10:51 AM
"That is to say, perhaps a student only learns 3 of 4 patterns at 2nd degree, he/she then becomes a 3rd of 4th degree, sets up their own school and a 2nd degree comes to train with them, hoping to learn their patterns. The instructor is then not able to teach the student all the patterns- isn't that the same as LOSING part of the TKD curriculum as successive generations of instructors never learn one of the patterns."
What has to be understood here with these 2 patterns "Juche & Ko-Dang", is the fact that Juche replaced Ko-dang some years ago in the ITF curriculum as so to keep only 24 patterns in the system so both are NOT required to be taught, only Juche is required by ITF standards. More & more ITF schools are re-incorporating Ko-Dang into the curriculum as only to expose their students to it. Alot of the independents teach both or only one. We only do Ko-Dang, but we are also required to do one WTF pattern per Dan level. Personally, I like to look at forms as to what their "hidden" applications are for a real situation, not what is easier for the body type or for competition (though I do like to compete).
VDJ
Posted by: tkd_high_green
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/20/07 09:52 AM
Supremor, thanks for the links, those are both very well done. Gotta love YouTube!
VDJ, like you said, juche is typically the pattern we learn at our school, but for various reasons, some students will learn ko-dang, such as one student who was recovering from knee surgery. The jumps and spins in juche would have put too much strain on his knees.
However, what got me was this other school chose to drop juche in favor of kodang because a larger number of students would be able to do that pattern well, unlike juche where only a few students would have the natural physical ability to really excel in that pattern, and "ever do it well"
Personally, I love learning new patterns, and the more challenging they are, the more likely I am to work on them. I love po eun, because it fits my body type better than any other pattern, but I rarely practice it because it's not a challenge.
Laura
Posted by: VDJ
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/20/07 10:50 AM
Laura,
People are restricted by injury all the time. I was just at a seminar a week and half ago and there was a 3rd dan that could barely kick above the waist because his knee's were so bad. I don't think that NOT teaching a pattern to students because they won't be able to do it well, or it doesn't fit their body type is acceptable. We don't do Juche, never have, I do know that it is not for the athletically challenged, but if it is part of your curriculum, then teach it (not you personally, but in general). It IS an ITF requirement, Ko-Dang is no longer listed in the encyclopedia, but as I stated above, more & more ITF schools have adapted it as part of ITF "History". Though Juche is a pretty pattern to watch, I strongly oppose its definition. I have considered learning it but would need to spend more time with my good friend VDan to do so. The pattern that I am VERY interested in seeing performed is "Hong Hi", created by GM David Chaanine in honor of General Choi Hong Hi. To date, I have yet to find it on the web or anywhere.
VDJ
Posted by: Supremor
Re: For the sake of learning it - 11/20/07 11:50 AM
At my school we learn Juche, not Kodang.
Quote:
The pattern that I am VERY interested in seeing performed is "Hong Hi", created by GM David Chaanine in honor of General Choi Hong Hi. To date, I have yet to find it on the web or anywhere.
That sounds very in keeping with the rest of taekwon-do. Since many of the patterns are named after key figures in Korean history, it would seem fitting to have a pattern named after the founder of the art. I will keep my eyes peeled!