MA training: How much advantage?

Posted by: MattJ

MA training: How much advantage? - 08/14/07 05:05 PM

Versus a 'regular joe'? Is it something to even-up the playing field or should you be able to bury all comers?

Vote and explain. Remember that we are taking about non-martial arts trained opponents.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/14/07 05:09 PM

Man!

I really wanted to vote #5...Such an awesome answer.
But I did't.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/14/07 05:17 PM

I am a big fan of number 5 too, but I need at least some credibility.

My one condition for voting 4, is it is against people about your size, I say that because size and strength do matter and I don't want people thinking a 135lb guy is whooping up on Warren Sapp just cause he took some Karate Classes at the YMCA.

My vote is about dedicated well trained BB level (my definition of BB) vrs people about their own size and weight, and below.

This also doesn't mean there are not some little guys that can lay down a beatin on a big guy, just means in general.

HiYa!
Posted by: gojuwarrior1

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/14/07 05:21 PM

I voted some advantage because no matter how long and hard you train there is always someone out there that never learned a technique or picked up a weight in his life that would crush me. On the other hand those who train with the upmost intensity will fair better some of the time against someone who will not be able to handle a perfectly place side kick to the ribs.
Posted by: IceCat

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/14/07 07:39 PM

#3 I don't train to win fights survive in one piece is my goal Never have to use my training at all,would be great
Posted by: Dereck

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 11:57 AM

#3 - Some

You win some you lose some; you can't win them all.
Posted by: Debsk

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 12:13 PM

I would have to say 3. I guess for me its knowing that should the need arise, I hopefully have a better chance than the average joe, but also that I know when to extricate myself from a situation with speed and run like hell!
Posted by: JKogas

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 05:56 PM

As much as I talk about how much I respect human beings and their capacity for violence and mayhem (regardless of training), I still believe that skill matters. Not just skill mind you, but GREAT skill. The further the distance you can separate yourself from the rest of the pack, the better.

But yes, skill does matter. I say this because of what I have observed from owning and running a gym over the past five years.

The beginners who have come in over that period of time have for the most part, demonstrated NO ability to offer any credible game against those with training. I guess that's not really who you want to compare yourself to, but that is essentially the gist of this topic.

The difference in skill and ability is like night and day, regardless of size and level of strength, and this is particularly true in the grappling realm. That has at least been MY observation.

ANYONE can get lucky when you're "trading". But you do NOT luck into an armbar, etc. That requires training, experience and timing. You cannot "luck into" those things, in the way you can hit that "lucky punch".

Where skill matters even MORE is IN that striking/free movement range. To offset strength and aggression, you have to be far and away better than your opposition. The same is NOT as true in the clinch and ground ranges (where a little skill can go a LONG way). Again, this has just been my observations and points of view.


-John
Posted by: Dereck

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 06:01 PM

So John, what one did you pick? #4. A lot. This ain't no Tupperware party, pal. OR #5. Total. I should kick my own ass for even asking this pansy question.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 06:16 PM

I would probably go with #3, because I know that ANYONE can get their ass kicked. At least in terms of attitude and philosophy that is a safe road to take. That way your EGO doesn't overly inflated and you begin walking around with an exaggerated sense of your own "deadliness".

I've seen overly confident people have their asses handed to them too many times and I just know better all too well.

This attitude makes me a nice guy to be around, which of course goes a long way toward keeping me out of any possible trouble that might be avoided to begin with.




-John
Posted by: Dereck

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 06:22 PM

Excellent answer John; I'd expect nothing less and I know you are trained more then most.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 06:54 PM

John your description is dead on and fully supports answer number #4 (the correct answer:)

While I completely agree with you taking the attitude you do, and I share the philosophy, it's the knowledge and confidence you gain from being so well trained that allows you to carry yourself in such a manner.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/15/07 07:59 PM

Kimo, I completely agree.


-John
Posted by: medulanet

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 02:02 PM

It seems like we are discussing people who have training vs people who don't. What about people who have been training for years and have reached a very advanced level vs those who have not been training long, but have a solid foundations in the basics of fighting from all ranges, and who have won the "genetic lottery." I have seen "great skill" defeated by solid basic training and explosive athleticism. Any thoughts?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 03:15 PM

Good point, Med. Brings into question the whole idea about 'regular joe's', and how many of them there really are. Besides the genetically gifted, what about other athletes with similar attributes? Football players? Rugby players? Hockey players? Etc.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 03:31 PM

I dunno maybe we should ask Johnnie Morton?
Posted by: Joss

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 04:12 PM

I think the farther you take this, the more it depends on whose "game" is being played. That's not really an SD/Sport comment, but a comment that addresses individual strengths and relevent circumstances that might favor one or the other.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 04:13 PM

Good point Kimo, however, is two months enough to say that he had a solid understanding and ability to execute the basics? Who did he train with? If it was Randy Couture, then that's one thing, but if its Joe Schmo's MMA school its hard to tell. In addition, do you know for a fact that Morton was a more explosive athlete than his opponent. Remember, we're talking about a retired NFL player who couldn't cut it anymore and a wide receiver at that who is 35 years old. In fact, due to Morton's refusing to submit a urine sample I would surmise that he knew he was not the athlete he used to be and attempted to illegally regain the explosive athleticism he lost since his retirement. In addition, wide receiver is not the most physical position on the football field. Morton was ripped up at weigh ins, but looks aren't everything. It would be interesting to review the film to determine if Morton fought a technically sound fight.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 06:26 PM

Quote:

I dunno maybe we should ask Johnnie Morton?




Eh? So NFL players are regular joe's? I was thinking more along the line of high school/college kids.
Posted by: drgndrew

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/16/07 10:09 PM

don't get so caught up in defining what a "regular joe" is, he does not exist. He is just a fictional representation of all members of a population. Each population will have a different regular or average Joe. if you live in a slum area of a third world country then your average joe is going to be a lot different then if you live in a prosperous upper-class area of a well developed nation. if you are living in an aging population the students probably won't be the average, if your living in a university down then they just might.

Demographics make a big difference. you can only compare whether MA training as an advantage over the regular Joe in your population. so when answering this forget about others definitions of "regular Joe" and use your definition or what you think is the average joe. if there is enough responses from various populations then a general result will come forth.

We must be careful not to become to fixed on what we are comparing, martial arts develop many aspects, some martial arts are heavily health and fitness oriented. Tai chi For eg, then we should be looking at whether a tai chi practitioner is more healthier then mr Joe. there are so many different ways to measure MA v's Joe.

my point being don't answer this question based on someone else's Joe use your own, in the long run it will be more accurate.

BTW I answered "4: A lot. This ain't no Tupperware party, pal.", from my personal experience I have found MA gave me a huge advantage over others and not just in the concern of a fight, but in many other aspects of life. I found that I was more confident then the average Joe, in situations like job interviews, I was more willing to take action (and leadership) in an emergency situation. in my TMA days I was more disciplined then most ( I'm probably a bit lazier today) my flexibility was far superior to mr average. etc etc

If we are talking pure fighting or defending against Joe then I still answer 4. But it must also be acknowledged that the majority of my MA studies have been geared towards effective street and real world violence management, my instructors had been there done that. others train MA for other reasons some of which are in no way combative.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/17/07 01:07 PM

I apply this any endeavour how much of an advantage would a high school Football player, Race car driver, Basketball player, Hockey player, Ballet dancer and high school swimmer
have over the average joe. If you train in a field you shoiuld have advantage.

Now fighting just live styles has a lot to do with environment, preparation and mindset. For example a guy/person brought up with older brothers or a Father that taught how to scramp is probably gonna fight better then a only child thats never had to fight, most likely.

My point is that there is an advantage of being prepared, there's advantage of being in shape and mentally alerts definitely helps.
Posted by: WhiteDragon11

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/17/07 02:28 PM

Neko I totally agree with that post.
Posted by: schanne

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/17/07 02:42 PM

Matt, have to lean more toward the tuperware party, got to believe brother! But I think JohnL can kick his own as@*.
Posted by: Alabama_Samurai

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/17/07 06:03 PM

How much martial arts training will benefit you is according to how hard you train, how realistically you train, your ability, your fighting spirit or will-power, your state of mind, and your reaction to such situations. Some people just can't take the heat.

As for some people, they can wipe the floor clean of guys a good bit larger than themself. For others, this is NOT the case, regardless of how much training they have under the belt.

For the most part, it depends on the individual. But some training is better than no training at all, unless you just don't have a clue. In that case you could be setting yourself up for trouble when something does go down.

There are too many variables to definitively answer this question. But, I am going to say "Some. You crush some. Some crush you." Because it really depends on the individual and the type of fight.

Some people have no problem wining in a self-defense situation where the attacker is right up on you and all you have to do is put a hurt on him, but when they have to "duke it out" that's a whole 'nother ball game.

So it definitely depends on the individual.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: MA training: How much advantage? - 08/18/07 04:23 PM

Quote:

we're talking about a retired NFL player who couldn't cut it anymore and a wide receiver at that who is 35 years old.




While it's true he was no longer the player he was, he was only 1 season removed from being on an NFL roaster, and anyone who plays 12 seasons in the NFL has hit the genetic lottery.

That said he is a great example of trained vrs untrained. I don't know who he fought, but I would put good money that he was not an NFL caliber athlete, and he damn near killed Johnnie.

Quote:

is two months enough to say that he had a solid understanding and ability to execute the basics




No way not even close, I don't care who is training you. That is not enough time to learn and change natural instincts a person has, so the best he could hope for is the basic movements.