Katacentric: is there a gender preference?

Posted by: harlan

Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 09:50 AM

One of the usual questions in MA is 'where are the women?' How to get them into the class, how to keep them...and if contact is a major issue/perception that needs to be overcome. So, when I hear other female MAists here (and there are not many) say 'I love kata/patterns/form' I wonder if there is more than the female need to organize . Anyway, is there a gender difference in preference for kata?

Posted by: Journey

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 10:41 AM

I'm a female and been training for several years now. I thought I was going to be an anomaly on this one but maybe not. I don't enjoy katas while learning them but am OK when it's time to "perform" for a test. Maybe it's because I have a hint of dyslexia and learning a set way to move can be difficult. I LOVE to hit and kick - it's a real outlet for me. As to why there are not more women in MA? It takes a unique individual to be drawn to the sport in the first place and an even more unique person to stick to it. The women I have work out with that are really into it are warriors. Beautiful,over 30, mothers, but warrior princesses. You got to have the heart for it.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 11:03 AM

Being 'left-right challenged' myself, there are times I hate kata. But...once I'm doing it...there is a fascination that takes over. A feeling of falling into a bottomless well...hard to describe.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 11:24 AM

I hate kata.
Posted by: oldman

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 12:13 PM

Can a guy chime in?

I am finding more and more women in my classes these days. Many of them would fit Journeys discription. I enjoy teaching them very much. I have never had anyone either male or female say to me "I love Kata! I want to do more of it!!!" I don't think it is a gender issue. One of the things about current training is with all the options out there people can choose to train however they would like to. Martial arts are a hobby or pastime for folks so it makes sense to think "why spend it doing things you don't enjoy, move onto something else".

When I began training and even all I wanted to do was spar/fight. I enjoyed that, and frankly I was already good at it. Just like most folks I just wanted more of what I already had and was already good at. I did not not want to be brought face to face with conscious and subconscious shortcomings and fears. Who would? I have always had difficulty with memorization, sequences and anything linear. Personally I am all about improvisation and spontinaity. There is a school of thought that says spend the majority of your time working on your strengths. I think there is truth to that. On the other hand there is value in confronting and challening our issues rather than avoiding them. Being in a system that makes demands has the advantage of not giving you choices or freedom. You learn how to deal with and maybe even learn to enjoy experiential broccholi.

I have heard women voice their concerns about sparring. Even with our more conservative/ controlled approach that is true. Once they begin to spar which is approximatly 3 months into the program they are usually eager to give it a go. I think the primary value that I can provide as a teacher is the opportunity for a person female or male to explore the depth and breadth of who they are or might become. I want the places I teach to be physically and emotionally safe places to do that. Now creating an environment that is safe does not mean that it will feel safe to the individual. There are times when I want a student to be scared. Just because they are frightened does not mean they are at risk it may just feel like it. When there are small injuries we even celebrate them like badges of honor. I have actually heard the ladies tell stories about impressing their friends with the lumps and bruises they have gotten at class.

I think women are a pretty pragmatic group as a whole. With karate I think it is difficult at best to imagine where the practice with take you and if there will be a return on their investment of time and money. A lot of teachers will list the benefits to the students before they start. I don't. I really don't have any idea if it will be of value to them or not.
Posted by: archon113

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 01:44 PM

Speaking as a male, I wouldn't say forms are my favourite part of training as I also enjoy pad work, sparring, and the rest of it, but I don't dislike them at all. It can be frustrating to learn and try to remember a new form that just never seems to end, but I like practising forms in class once I've learned them.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/24/07 01:46 PM

Kata is like symbols. I'm symbolic challenged, and these symbols are a nice puzzle for me to work on.

-Taison out
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/25/07 08:41 AM

bump

Thanks for the reply Oldman. Don't forget to vote.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/26/07 09:40 AM

bump...hmmm...interesting results emerging???

To date:

female reponses 8: 4/3/1
I like kata: 50%

male responses 16: 1/14/1
I like kata: 6%
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/27/07 10:43 AM

bump...anyone know any female MAists they could direct to this poll? I'd love to see an even number of respondants.

To date:

female reponses 11: 4/5/2
I like kata: 36%

male responses 22: 1/19/2
I like kata: 5%
Posted by: Debsk

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/27/07 10:45 AM

I don't particularly like Kata's, I find them incredibly boring to be honest. Sparring I love.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/27/07 10:59 AM

Hello Harlan:

I refuse to believe the answer to this question is gender based. Love or loathe kata does not depend on ones apparatus, rather our brains hardwiring... and definately how it is presented.

IMHO-IMHE I have uniformly found women young or old learn the ideas, principles of the art typically far better, easier and more thoroughly than men solely because they do not force their way through it. They learn the kata, and rarely depend on their awesome strength or mass to achieve the desired result. Hense, understand what a kata tells us far better.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/27/07 11:25 AM

It's just a question...and there is no 'right or wrong' answer. Nor did I imply that it was gender 'based'...only if there was a gender 'preference'...which as you pointed out can lay in social conditioning and possible differences in hard wiring.

'Preferences' change over time...so this is just an unscientific snapshot. Personally, I kinda expect things to even out and both sections to be predominately in the middle. As to why anybody likes kata...that is a different question.

I could point to the overwhelming success of TKD and female participation/retention and contrast it to a 'hard' MA like karate, which doesn't seem to have the same success in attracting/retaining females...and if kata was the single factor in appealing/retaining women then why the disparity? Obviously, one size does not fit all...male or female.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/27/07 03:51 PM

I think TKD has such success with women is because of their variety of kicking techniques. Many women don't have confidence in their upper body strength and view their lower body strength and flexibility as a strong asset. This goes well with the large focus on kicking in TKD.
Posted by: srv

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/31/07 03:28 AM

I was torn which way to vote cause I love kata but I also love sparring. In the end I went for I like kata a lot. I have always enjoyed kata since not long after I first began grading.

With the other women at my dojo I think there would be a fairly mixed response. But I think most overall enjoy kata.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/31/07 06:48 AM

Hello Harlan:

Pssssst, TKD IS A "hard style"....

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/31/07 07:07 AM

Hello Harlan:

A good teacher, finds our "wavelength" and communicates clearly. If the messages are clear ones, its always simple choice.. gender regardless.

One of the...amusing things I've always found, if you take the generic art of Ueshiba (Aiki-) the large majority of its first generation seem to have already been martial artists, and... not "soft" in the least... for many it still was and is still not now, despite its "higher-ground" technique and philosophy....

Jeff
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/31/07 07:19 AM

No offense meant to the TKDers. I think that the popular image of TKD, the kind that most women are familiar with, is that it is a more approachable art.

Quote:

Pssssst, TKD IS A "hard style"....

Jeff


Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 07/31/07 07:25 AM

Currently:

female 14: 5/7/2
I like kata...36%. Interesting that the male responses at around the same number (16, below) were still way lower.

male 24: 2/20/2
I like kata...8%


Quote:



female reponses 8: 4/3/1
I like kata: 50%

male responses 16: 1/14/1
I like kata: 6%




BTW: this poll is open to everyone that practices MA...not just those in styles with forms/kata.

Thanks for the interesting replies.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 08/08/07 10:43 AM

bump...looks like the poll has tapped out of responses.

To date:

female reponses 14: 5/7/2
I like kata: 36%

male responses 25: 2/21/2
I like kata: 8%

Not a lot to go on, and not 'scientific'...but still...male/female ratios are different in preference.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/10/07 07:51 AM

bump

To date:

female reponses 14: 5/7/2
I like kata: 36%

male responses 31: 2/27/2
I like kata: 6%

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/10/07 10:05 AM

Hello Harlan:

I often forward your questions to my female peers, martial acquaintences and fellow students. And shall obviously continue to do so...

Martial arts without kata is not kara-te. Done for years before I was born, and far into the future; I am a staunch & adament believer. "Sparring" in the sense it is done today (ie with all the marshmellow protection) has problems of many degrees.

Perhaps the question should not be exclusive to kata but perhaps examine the history of the sparring, as it exists today? As to the matter of gender... perhaps it is my feminine side, but sparring too often goes the wrong direction, dead wrong emphasis far too often. Sparring draws folks "bloodlust" to the surface and proves nothing serious or meaningful 99% of the time.

Merely my opinion, I could srely be mistaken,

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/10/07 03:51 PM

Hello Harlan:

-Bump-

TKD is an EMA... (sic. on the line definately to the right of Okinawan "-te").

Jeff
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/10/07 03:54 PM

*confused* English...Ronin...please? What is 'EMA'...and how does TKD and EMA fold into the thread? Thanks.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/10/07 05:19 PM

Quote:

but sparring too often goes the wrong direction, dead wrong emphasis far too often. Sparring draws folks "bloodlust" to the surface and proves nothing serious or meaningful 99% of the time.




This certainly happens. I think this is a result of non-structured or non goal-oriented sparring. If you give clear parameters or objectives, ego should not be a problem.

This does require a bit of coaching skill that seems sadly absent from many schools.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/12/07 05:56 AM

Serious question: how much do you think it is related to more little girls doing dancing and gymnastics etc and so wouldn't find learning sequences of movements so difficult (or pointless)?
Posted by: harlan

Re: Katacentric: is there a gender preference? - 09/12/07 07:51 AM

Your suggestion that (prior) social conditioning might be a factor is noted. Thanks for the input!

I do note that there is an interesting difference in responses to date....and find that interesting in itself.