POLL - Your self defense techniques
Posted by: MattJ
POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/25/07 06:52 PM
When planning and executing your intended self defense techniques, where do they leave your opponent? Standing or not? In AKK (predominantly a stand-up art), I would estimate that 40-50% of the SD techniques result in the opponent ending up on the ground.
Where do you PREFER to leave the opponent, up or down?
Posted by: shadowkahn
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/25/07 07:58 PM
I voted assuming we have tried to run, and for whatever reason cannot. If I'm forced to fight "to the finish" so to speak, I want him on the ground, preferably unconscious, because I don't want him following me when I leave.
Posted by: Glockmeister
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/28/07 01:34 PM
I always would wanna put an attacker on the ground. It limits his movement and gives me the opportunity to either leave the area, deal with other attackers or if on duty, the opportunity to handcuff him or her.
Posted by: olga
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/28/07 01:51 PM
The point of self-defense is to neutralize the attacker. If the attacker is still standng, it probably means that he is not that injured and is still able to come after you, which, in turn, means that you have not defended yourself successfully (unless you neutralized him by talking, or giving him your wallet and running away, etc.)
Posted by: schanne
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/28/07 02:24 PM
Probably 75% of the SD techniques we practice end to the ground and continue into a submission of some sort. But of course it would be nice to end an encounter standing as well.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/28/07 02:30 PM
I see someone answered "leave then standing" for their own preference. I am interested to read the rationale for that choice.
Posted by: harlan
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/28/07 02:32 PM
Not that I'm any good at the real thing...but I would prefer to give them the option to run away.
(Note: I can't run anymore because of my knees, and from the little I've learned, would avoid taking someone to the ground as that is not where I want to be.)
Posted by: schanne
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/28/07 04:14 PM
Hi Olga, there are many different types of attacks to consider. Your correct if it is your life but there are also the drunk people who get a little brave and touchy during a confrontation and just a fast takedown or something to bring them to their knees will usually do. I found that humiliating a person in this type of insodent is far better than hurting someone. Plus your not taking anything to the extreme. The speed and gracefulness of a MA's taking someone down without hurting them and getting the point across is probably what we all strive for...I hope it is anyway.
You also have drunk Uncle bob that comes to every fourth of July party and is willing to test that your really a martial artist. Sometime something very easy will help Uncle Bob remember, may be two finger pressure point to his clavical when he does his ...ok tough guy what now?
Posted by: jpoor
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:11 PM
Quote:
Probably 75% of the SD techniques we practice end to the ground and continue into a submission of some sort. But of course it would be nice to end an encounter standing as well.
Should SD ever END in a submission? If you attack me in such a way that I take you down, crying "uncle" isn't going to cut it. If I've got your arm/wrist, consider it broken.
That's the theory at least. Check out my stop at the drop of a tap post to see my concerns about conditioning to stop.
Quote:
Hi Olga, there are many different types of attacks to consider. Your correct if it is your life but there are also the drunk people who get a little brave and touchy during a confrontation and just a fast takedown or something to bring them to their knees will usually do. I found that humiliating a person in this type of insodent is far better than hurting someone. Plus your not taking anything to the extreme. The speed and gracefulness of a MA's taking someone down without hurting them and getting the point across is probably what we all strive for...I hope it is anyway.
You also have drunk Uncle bob that comes to every fourth of July party and is willing to test that your really a martial artist. Sometime something very easy will help Uncle Bob remember, may be two finger pressure point to his clavical when he does his ...ok tough guy what now?
I can almost agree with the drunk uncle scenario, but not the drunk stranger on the street. First, if the person isn't really a threat (just a little touchy) there's no need take them down at all. If you can't walk/run away and the your "take action" threshold is met, don't half step it. Besides, drunks can surprise you with pain tolerance etc etc. Not to mention the drug possibilities.
Oh, and if it's not your life (health too) on the line, then why engage at all?
Posted by: MattJ
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:30 PM
Jim -
Not all subs end with "Uncle". A RNC will leave the opponent a limp, unconscious heap.
Posted by: jpoor
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:35 PM
Maybe we're tripping on terminology. In my mind, if you choke someone out, they didn't submit. Just as if in UFC you break an arm during an arm bar and the ref stops the fight. It wasn't a submission, it was stopped due to injury.
M-W defines: (2&3 apply in my mind)
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin submission-, submissio act of lowering, from submittere
Date:
14th century
1 a: a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators b: an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection); also : something submitted (as a manuscript)
2: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant
3: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another.
If submission means "a move that in a competition would cause the opponent to tap out, but in the real world is carried through to the break/choke out, etc" then OK.
Posted by: harlan
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:40 PM
Could the 'SD' types please explain something to a newbie...where is the concept of meeting force with equal force? Of action with same level of action? The fight is brought to you...but you have a choice (mostly) in the level of response.
I once saw a MMA cadet attacked at the beach bar by a couple of burly locals. He had studied Han pool (sp?), and redirected every attack by sending them flying.
No broken arms.
Posted by: jpoor
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:42 PM
How did the big burly locals fair upon landing? Could they regroup and continue either mentally or physically?
Edit: I go for meeting force with overwhelming force if I can.
Posted by: harlan
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:46 PM
It was lovely. Yes...they got f**ked up...you might say they flew further comensurate to the degree that they attacked him. One bigger fellow was peristant...but the cadet never 'followed up' the redirection with another technique.
Was he foolish not to respond with a higher level of force? Don't know...he wasn't about to screw up officer's school by breaking some locals' arms.
Posted by: olga
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:51 PM
Quote:
Oh, and if it's not your life (health too) on the line, then why engage at all?
I agree. If it's a drunk uncle, you can just walk away. There is no need to prove to him what you can and cannot do. Just give him more vodka.
On the other hand, if you are in a real confrontation, there might not be enoug time to decide whether you should only humiliate the attacker of physically hurt him. No one has the right to be physically obnoxious with you or anyone else, and if it comes down to a situation in which you feel threatened and cannot just walk away, you should defend until the threat is no longer there.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:55 PM
I think you have to assume for sake of argument that the SD techniques are for a real attacker, not the drunk uncle Bobs of the world.
If that is the case then technique should leave the attacker incapacitated. In application this could mean should mean on the ground or running away.
Matt I am surprised you say AKK leaves people on the ground 40-50% of the time, I don't know a technique that leaves anyone standing ever. Either you drop them with a strike or throw them to the ground, at least in my experience.
Granted AKK is not my primary art so I could be wrong.
Posted by: harlan
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 02:58 PM
JPoor brings up a question about 'terminology'. Is it accepted that 'self-defense' is a concept applied only in life-threatening situations (i.e. Olga's 'real confrontation')?
(oops...crossposted with Kimo)
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:19 PM
Quote:
I once saw a MMA cadet attacked at the beach bar by a couple of burly locals. He had studied Han pool (sp?), and redirected every attack by sending them flying. No broken arms.
This is actually an interesting point, he played with them a bit maybe in attempt to let them see the errors of their ways. Personally I can go either way on this, I have been in a similar situation where I knew I outmatched the guy and he was drunk.
After his first attempt where I harmlessly through him down, I warned him if he tried again I would hurt him, badly and he stopped.
If the locals kept coming I think he should have increased the force, IMO. Maybe he felt comfortable in his situation that he didn't feel the need to hurt them, but that can be dangerous.
Posted by: olga
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:32 PM
Things can also be different if you are a woman. For example, a big guy might be able to choose to toy around with the attacker to teach him a lesson and risk a second attack, if the bad guy is not incapacitated or scared enough to run away. A smaller woman, however, cannot risk a second attack. I am in class with a lot of big guys and if any of them managed to punch or kick me full force in the head or strategically in the body, they will probably kill me, or bring me very close to it.
So when I train in self-defense, I train to follow through. Even if it is a drunk guy in a bar who is too touchy-feely. If I am cornered and cannot escape, hopefully, once I am done defending myself, the attacker will either be on the floor in pain or running for his life.
Posted by: harlan
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:38 PM
Jeez, Olga. Would you break a guys arm just because he was looking to cop a feel?
Seems to me self defense is situational, and along a continuum. Can someone clarify...does 'self defense' only apply in life threatening situations? Then the only 'self defense' this guy had was situational awareness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7HtapvNyOo&eurl=
Posted by: jpoor
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:42 PM
That's a good point, and since you know what I look like this will sound really funny to you.
I sometimes still feel like the 5'11" 135 pound stick that I used to be. It feels really odd to hear someone call me a "big guy." I won't (if I can help it) give anyone a second run at me once it comes to violence. It still takes a lot to get me to launch (some would and have argued that it has taken too much on occasion).
For those who don't know I'm currently 5'10" (yes, I shrunk, blame it on the Army) 213 pounds, down from 245 a bit over 3 months ago.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:43 PM
Quote by jpoor -
Quote:
If submission means "a move that in a competition would cause the opponent to tap out, but in the real world is carried through to the break/choke out, etc" then OK.
Exactly. They can submit......or not.
Quote by Kimo -
Quote:
Matt I am surprised you say AKK leaves people on the ground 40-50% of the time, I don't know a technique that leaves anyone standing ever. Either you drop them with a strike or throw them to the ground, at least in my experience.
Granted AKK is not my primary art so I could be wrong.
No, you are actually closer to how the techniques are intended. I was going by the techniques that have takedowns or knockdowns in them *specifically* as opposed to the ones where the opponent 'should' fall down from the vicious ass-whuppin'.
Posted by: olga
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:46 PM
Quote:
Jeez, Olga. Would you break a guys arm just because he was looking to cop a feel?
Seems to me self defense is situational, and along a continuum. Can someone clarify...does 'self defense' only apply in life threatening situations? Then the only 'self defense' this guy had was situational awareness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7HtapvNyOo&eurl=
If I am cornered, cannot escape and no one can help me, and the guy is trying to cop a feel, then yes, I will "break his arm." Or try anyway. What would you do? Let him?
Posted by: jpoor
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:47 PM
Quote:
Exactly. They can submit......or not.
Does that mean you would give them a choice in a really truly SD situation?
Somebody jumps you, you are stomping them good, and they say "ok, I've had enough." Do you go through the "do I believe them thought process, or do you go until you know they are no longer a threat?
Posted by: Cord
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 03:53 PM
Quote:
Jeez, Olga. Would you break a guys arm just because he was looking to cop a feel?
On one of our first dates, I came back from the toilet to find a hell of a commotion. A guy had groped Deni whilst she was at the bar, and she had flashed an elbow back managing to spread his nose all over his face! (even more impressive as she was on crutches at the time). I arrived just in time to see his friend helping him out of the pub, and to calm Deni down enough to placate the landlord and explain what had happened.
'Coping a feel' without a girls consent is also known as 'sexual assault', and is deserving of much pain and injury.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 04:00 PM
Quote:
Does that mean you would give them a choice in a really truly SD situation?
Somebody jumps you, you are stomping them good, and they say "ok, I've had enough." Do you go through the "do I believe them thought process, or do you go until you know they are no longer a threat?
That would depend on the situation.
Posted by: jpoor
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 04:28 PM
Quote:
Jeez, Olga. Would you break a guys arm just because he was looking to cop a feel?
Seems to me self defense is situational, and along a continuum. Can someone clarify...does 'self defense' only apply in life threatening situations? Then the only 'self defense' this guy had was situational awareness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7HtapvNyOo&eurl=
As for copping a feel, if someone is bold enough to invade your space that way, they are also likely to get violent when you resist.
I'm not sure the video is relevant as there was no SD at all.
Posted by: TroTro
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 04:42 PM
Leave the opponent standing or Leave the opponent on the ground? .... hmm
Very good question, MattJ. To be honest, I never think about it before, so I am not sure.
After a bit of thinking...
To me, it seems that leave the opponent standing means ending the fight (or self-defense) by giving the opponent a chance to walkaway; leaving the opponent on the ground is to end the conflict by disabling the opponent (from my striking-style MA training). Both methods of ending the situation seem to have their own merit.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/29/07 08:39 PM
Difficult to answer.
The percentage of our syllabus that grounds the opponent could well be 100 percent. Knock-down or take-down, makes no difference to me.
It's hard to answer because I would always attempt to break contact and leave the scene.
If I happen to run away, that will probably leave him standing, so who knows.
-John
Posted by: pathfinder7195
Re: POLL - Your self defense techniques - 06/30/07 12:12 AM
Quote by Cord
In one of our first dates, I came back from the toilet to find a hell of a commotion. A guy had groped Deni whilst she was at the bar, and she had flashed an elbow back managing to spread his nose all over his face! (even more impressive as she was on crutches at the time). I arrived just in time to see his friend helping him out of the pub, and to calm Deni down enough to placate the landlord and explain what had happened.
'Coping a feel' without a girls consent is also known as 'sexual assault', and is deserving of much pain and injury"
This is ridiculous. Next time I am in a bar and a girl cops a feel on my rear I'll be sure to smash her face with my fist to prove a point. Should I file charges against her to when the cops get there?. For "sexual assault". Bet I would be in jail.
Wow somebody male or female got groped in a bar what's new. It does not need to end up in a blood bath or broken arms. Out side of that cop beating the hell out of that female bartender, do you really hear about females being attacked in a bar all alone with no one there. More likely in the parking lot after the bar closes an attack would happen. Then I could see major force being used.
Better not go to any dance clubs because there is groping all over the dance floor. Grinding too!
