How do gun disarm

Posted by: MattJ

How do gun disarm - 06/08/07 03:28 PM

There's a "how to" for everything. Even gun disarms!

I liked that he spent some time talking about non-physical responses. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE&mode=related&search=
Posted by: jpoor

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/08/07 05:03 PM

Quote:

There's a "how to" for everything. Even gun disarms!

I liked that he spent some time talking about non-physical responses. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE&mode=related&search=




Good that he talks about deescalation for sure. Give up everything but your life is a good theory.

It seems to me that the finger stuck in the trigger guard would hamper the disarm because it would get stuck. Most of the gun defense techniques that I have learned in the past end up with the barrel redirected to the attacker and the trigger pulled while still in his hand.

Of course, I've never had to really do it, so....
Posted by: Saisho

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/08/07 05:07 PM

That is the first Krav Maga thing that I have ever seen that I liked. Once I saw the title of this post, I knew it would be Krav and I thought it would be rediculous. This guy actually made sense and his approach was good.

The only thing I would say is that if you have already given the attacker your posessions, I doubt your hands will be at your side. You can let them drift down a little, but I would suspect they would be up.
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/08/07 06:30 PM

Does this guy have credentials?
Posted by: thatguy

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/08/07 08:25 PM

Quote:

Does this guy have credentials?




Pfff, who needs credentials? Just watch movies like Lethal Weapon 4!
Posted by: MattJ

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/08/07 09:21 PM

Quote:

Does this guy have credentials?




I take it that you disagree with something about the presentation? The disarm itself seemed about as good/bad as any other that I have seen.
Posted by: schanne

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/09/07 11:41 AM

I have two of those yellow rubber guns at our dojo. Both guns have the trigger guard cut away due to people hurting their fingers while twisting during the SD techniques. The guy on the video is correct, if you twist your attackers finger it's going to break that's for sure. The only dangerous part about twisting is the gun can fire when the index finger twist and during all that hopefully the barrell of the gun is point away from the defender...it better be!
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/09/07 12:07 PM

Couple of things on this.

First is the grab, the grab of gun has to first assume it will fire, because it likely will so you must be concerned where the bullet is going.

Second is the grab must diable the gun from firing again (if you know how guns work you will understand what I mean) and it must assure he can't pull it away (you need leverage cause he will fight like hell for the gun)

After that minimal strike and small circle JJ should finish the job on any gun or weapon defense.

Botton line on any weapon defense is the grab, everything else flows from that. Miss the grab, and you are going to have a bad day.
Posted by: KJ63

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/09/07 05:49 PM

I've always wondered what damage a human hand would sustain when holding a gun (hand over the slide) really tight when it is fired. Maybe someone should send it to Myth Busters.
Posted by: ExCon

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/09/07 10:02 PM

Quote:

The disarm itself seemed about as good/bad as any other that I have seen.




I agree



Quote:

I've always wondered what damage a human hand would sustain when holding a gun (hand over the slide) really tight when it is fired.




That would really hurt; no way will you be able to keep your hand on the gun unless you have true grit.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 10:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Does this guy have credentials?




I take it that you disagree with something about the presentation? The disarm itself seemed about as good/bad as any other that I have seen.




Speaking for myself, it's not terrible, but there are a couple of things I wasn't impressed with. First off, he didn't move his body out of the line of fire when he went for the gun. Going for the gun shoudl be acompanied by twisting away from where the bullet's gonna go if he's fast enough to see you making the grab.

Second, when he had the gun in "control" it was pointing off to the side, and he was holding it right where he needed to hold it to stop the slide and therefore stop the gun from firing into the crowd of people.

Too bad the gun had a hammer, not a slide, so whoever might have been standing to defender's right just got shot.
Posted by: ExCon

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 12:24 PM

Quote:

he was holding it right where he needed to hold it to stop the slide and therefore stop the gun from firing


This is dangerous BS!

When a pistol is discharge the slide will recoil with the same force as the bullet leaving the barrel. Just ask anyone who has had the webbing between their forefinger and thumb caught by the slide how it felt and how many stitches he/she needed.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 05:05 PM

Quote:

First off, he didn't move his body out of the line of fire when he went for the gun.




Yes that is a critcal part of the first move.

Quote:

so whoever might have been standing to defender's right just got shot.




You must assume the gun will fire at least once, so controlling the direction of the barrell is critical, if you can't do it, don't try it because someone will get shot.

The rules of gun defense are simple and finite.

In terms of it being dangerous BS, sure there is a very good chance it's gonna hurt, but your other option would be to get shot so it being dangerous is kinda a mute point, wouldn't you agree?
Posted by: ExCon

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 06:27 PM

Quote:

In terms of it being dangerous BS, sure there is a very good chance it's gonna hurt, but your other option would be to get shot so it being dangerous is kinda a mute point, wouldn't you agree?


No!

It’s not a question of either putting your hand on the slide or being shot. There are any number of other gun disarms that don’t require you to put flesh in the way of moving machinery.

There are more options than just the two that you present.
Posted by: jpoor

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 07:06 PM

Stopping the slide will NOT prevent the gun from firing! The slide doesn't move until AFTER the bullet fires. A hand on the slide when the gun fires is likely to cause a malfunction that prevents a second round from firing, but has nothing to do with the first. Unless...
Now, if you manage to grab the gun and MOVE the slide just a bit, the gun (most newer anyway) may not fire because it will be "out of battery" and can't fire. In fact, there is a safety called "out of battery" that prevents firing.
( see http://www.snipercountrypx.com/pm-1502-158-walther-p99-qa-military-4-inch-9mm.aspx )


If you're hand is over the slide when the gun fires, you're in for a nasty pinch and a burn. Adrenaline may or may not cause you to not notice right away though.

Watch a high speed film of a gun firing in dim light and you'll see the reason for the burn.

Blocking the hammer in an a-la Hollywood move is an unlikely proposition, and in the heat of the moment, I don't want to be looking to see if a gun has an external hammer to start with (Glock for example, has an internal hammer).

To throw another wrench in the works, lets not assume that we are not facing a revolver. Whole different game then.

One more, revolver or not, a snub nose (38 or baby Glock) doesn't leave much to grab & use for leverage against the attacker.

So many things to consider...
Posted by: ExCon

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 08:37 PM

Great post jpoor!

You are the Gun Guy!
Posted by: jpoor

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/10/07 08:53 PM

LOL. Hardly the gun guy, but I know enough people who really are
Posted by: Tashigae

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 03:51 AM

Quote:

I've always wondered what damage a human hand would sustain when holding a gun (hand over the slide) really tight when it is fired.



This depends entirely on the caliber and other characteristics of the weapon (and the cartridge too). A .22 will feel one hell of a lot different from a .45.

Quote:

When a pistol is discharged the slide will recoil with the same force as the bullet leaving the barrel.



Yes, the force is equal. But the slide is a lot heavier than the bullet (plus there’s a strong spring pushing against it, while nothing but wind opposes the bullet’s course). Whenever you fire a gun, you are pushed backwards with the same force as that pushing the bullet forwards. But (hopefully) you don’t travel quite as far nor as fast, do you?... (unless of course your weight + the gun’s weight = the bullet’s weight, and you’re in the middle of a jump when firing – to negate friction with the ground. This would suppose you have a negative weight. Never met anyone THAT light ). It’s all a matter of how powerful the cartridge, how heavy the slide, how large the surface of contact with your hand and the angle between that surface and the force’s vector (in the case of the webbing between forefinger and thumb standing in the way of the slide, those last two criteria are indeed painfully unfriendly). However, I agree that it will be very painful anyway in most cases. But with pretty much any gun/cartridge combination, it will also slow down the slide more than enough to prevent it from rechambering properly, thus making the weapon unable to fire again (with many semi-auto pistols, even just using the weaker varieties of cartridges is enough to make the rechambering fail. So a strong grip is definitely going to hamper the slide’s movement enough). There’s a question of priorities here. Are you willing to take the pain to disable the gun? I personally have no idea whether I would, but I know that in the heat of a fight, people often take worse punishment than that without loosing anything of their fighting capability…

Quote:

Now, if you manage to grab the gun and MOVE the slide just a bit, the gun (most newer anyway) may not fire because it will be "out of battery" and can't fire. In fact, there is a safety called "out of battery" that prevents firing.



Indeed, and even if the gun doesn’t feature such safety, this ever-so-slight move would put the firing pin away from the cartridge anyway. Same result: the gun shouldn’t fire. But to be honest, the said move sounds awfully difficult to me. I definitely wouldn’t count on it.

Quote:

To throw another wrench in the works, lets not assume that we are not facing a revolver. Whole different game then.



Yes, a revolver is a different matter. But the good part is, unless the gun-wielder has cocked the hammer beforehand (which many shooters find not only unnecessary but even detrimental since it makes the first shot feel different than the subsequent ones, hence calling for adjustment), holding the drum of the gun will prevent it to rotate, thus preventing the gun from firing even one single shot. Which is a good thing. And unlike holding the slide of a firing pistol, it won’t even be painful! What else do you want? (yeah, I know: not being held at gunpoint in the first place.)

--------

And of course, at the end of the day, the best COA is still to hand the money…
Posted by: jpoor

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 07:35 AM

I wouldn't count on any gun disarm for sure. A note on the weaker rounds causing malfunctions; that's true, and get this, a weak or improper grip can cause a malfunction as well.

When we were learning to shoot with our off hand in case the good one was out of commission, many folks had trouble with bad feeds and stove because their weaker hand didn't provide enough support for the gun. This caused the whole gun to recoil more and the difference between gun and slide movement wasn't enough for proper operation.

In a real world situation, one of the guys I worked with came around a corner to a 9mm pointed right at his chest. He grabbed the guys hands and shoved the barrel into his own chest hard enough that it went out of battery and wouldn't fire. Gave him the extra second or so that he needed to survive, but I wouldn't recommend it. The guy had brass... uh, shell casings
Posted by: Tashigae

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 09:50 AM

Quote:

In a real world situation, one of the guys I worked with came around a corner to a 9mm pointed right at his chest. He grabbed the guys hands and shoved the barrel into his own chest hard enough that it went out of battery and wouldn't fire.





Oh my God! Now that definitely takes some guts. Really smart move. I take it the gun wasn't one of the popular Beretta 92 series, with that protruding barrel of theirs...

Quote:

The guy had brass... uh, shell casings



Definitely.

Quote:

I wouldn't recommend it.



Definitely not.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 06:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

he was holding it right where he needed to hold it to stop the slide and therefore stop the gun from firing


This is dangerous BS!

When a pistol is discharge the slide will recoil with the same force as the bullet leaving the barrel. Just ask anyone who has had the webbing between their forefinger and thumb caught by the slide how it felt and how many stitches he/she needed.




Actually, no.

The spring is designed specifically to buffer the force of the slide blowback as well as to return the slide to it's original position, scooping up and positioning the next round off the top of the magazine stack. This greatly influences recoil and the force with which the slide comes back. If it was equal to that of the bullet going down the barrel from the chamber pressure, it would do alot more damage to you than a slide cut and the gun would disintegrate very quickly, like a motocross bike with no shocks.

Grabbing the slide will bite and probably burn but that might be an acceptable risk in that situation.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 07:53 PM

Quote:

A hand on the slide when the gun fires is likely to cause a malfunction that prevents a second round from firing




Which is why you do it. The theory is that the first bullet is coming out, period (or at least that's what you must anticipate) and that's why you move your body off-line. But once that bullet comes out, it'd be kinda nice if the jerk didn't spray down the crowd with the remainder of his clip


Quote:

If you're hand is over the slide when the gun fires, you're in for a nasty pinch and a burn. Adrenaline may or may not cause you to not notice right away though.




No one said it doesn't hurt like hell, but it's a nicer alternative than you or a bystander getting shot.


Quote:

So many things to consider...




And this is why it's fun to train gun disarms, but in reality you'll need both the skill, and a hefty pinch of luck, to pull one off. They should only be used if there's no other option - - -after all, if the guy is determined to shoot you, you don't have anything to lose by trying to disarm him. It's a choice between certain death and possible death. I'd rather knock it down to possible death myself rather than having to worry if I have the will updated
Posted by: ExCon

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 08:51 PM

I agree to disagree with you folks until some fool tries it with his foolish friends and we get to watch it on you tube.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/11/07 10:24 PM

Quote:

I agree to disagree with you folks until some fool tries it with his foolish friends and we get to watch it on you tube




Got any friends and a camera?

Sorry, just kidding. It was right there and I had to take it.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/12/07 10:16 AM

Then there is the "Government Approach": write another law.
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/12/07 09:50 PM

I could only play about the first 100 seconds; until he swatted the weapon to the side. At that point, there were only 2 things I disagreed with:
a. Not putting your hands up. Sure I would! I'd get to have that swatting hand halfway there before there was any hint of me not complying with the assailant.
b. Not turning the body! Rule number one is don't get shot, and rule 1a is don't get shot in the head or torso!

So I didn't see any crapola about hand over the slide or jammed in the slide (too fine an objective). And putting my finger in the guard? no way; whoever talked about the opponent's finger in the guard being to your advantage was dead on. Once you have both hands on the weapon and the barrel pointed up, time to churn, baby!
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/12/07 10:13 PM

You have to hope the crook is stupid enough to hold the gun within range of your reach for this guy's stuff to work. If I was a criminal and holding somebody up, I'd tell them to put their stuff on the ground and be standing eight to ten feet away. If they made a false move toward me, they'd get shot.

There was another post up a couple of weeks ago where three guys were robbed, and the three of them couldn't disarm the guy... so treat this with skepticism. I don't remember for sure, but I think two of those guys got shot. The only thing the guy said I agreed with was that he'd give up his wallet or watch rather than get shot over them.

90 percent of "gun defense" techniques will end up with you getting shot in the process, so play nice and pack a piece yourself. If you draw and fire first, you have about a 70 percent chance of killing your attacker before he kills you.

Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/14/07 08:35 AM

Oh, I agree the distance has to be right, but I'd have to say withing arm's reach my odds are 90% (still not good enough if it's a simple robbery). I learned from the MASTER, an ex-cop who's actually done it twice for real.
Posted by: crablord

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/14/07 08:38 AM

step one - Grab Gun
step two - Twist gun away from thumb
step three - Pull gun
step four - get shot in the chest 6 times

Walla, gun disarm
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/14/07 01:26 PM

No, step one - get body out of line of fire.
step two - control hand with gun in it with closest hand.
step three - use other hand to take control of gun.
step four - take possession of gun.
step five - mine, not sensei's - pistolwhip the %^(#@ outta the other guy.
Posted by: jpoor

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/14/07 01:34 PM

Do any of you subscribe to the theory of turn the thing around and shoot the attacker?

Most of the gun defenses I know end up shooting the attacher with his/her own gun while it is still in the attacker's hand.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/14/07 01:42 PM

Most of the gun defenses I have been shown involve turning the gun towards the attacker.
Posted by: Aeras

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/14/07 02:34 PM

Quote:

I would love to see mythbusters do an episode about this




Yes, Yes Mythbusters please. I can see buster being blasted in slow motion already. Ahhh what wonderment that would be.

Quote:

I wouldn't count on any gun disarm for sure.




I wouldn't count on any self-defense move for sure.

much love everybody.
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/15/07 08:09 AM

Yes. In my post previous to yours, I had "step three - use other hand to take control of gun". If the gun is being held conventially, this means my second hand comes up under the barrel and moves it up, then towards the assailant. If he's strong and quick enough to prevent this, that's when the "churning" I mentioned earlier begins. I start whipping the gun around in a counter-clockwise motion. In either scenario his grip on the weapon is highly impaired.
Posted by: Jim_Judy

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/16/07 06:20 AM

Quote:

No, step one - get body out of line of fire.
step two - control hand with gun in it with closest hand.
step three - use other hand to take control of gun.
step four - take possession of gun.
step five - mine, not sensei's - pistolwhip the %^(#@ outta the other guy.




Anyone with weapon retention skills can kill you quicker than **** if you don't follow very simple rules when dealing with a gun.
Key to any gun defense: You must get past the line of fire, moving inside or outside of the weapon hand.
When you are controlling the hand, just take it straight to the ground by the fastest means possible, keeping the muzzle pointed away from both you and any principles or loved ones. I'm not going to try to lay out some complicated technique here and have some schmoe go out and play his hand with some half-assed replication of it and get killed. I have better things to do than get sued.
Most important is that you take the weapon to the ground in the most expedient manner, which is most often to push it to the ground once you move out of line of the muzzle. This is key since the best weapon renention method is to pull the weapon into the chest and if needed, simply sit down in the opposite direction from whatever disarming technique is being applied. With just alittle practice, you will find that it works like a charm, as long as you don't let the other guy apply any leverage to the joints in his disarm. As soon as he tries to wrestle over the weapon, just pull the weapon in and sit down.
So, this is why once you commit to a disarm attempt, PUSH THE WEAPON ARM ALL THE WAY TO THE GROUND. Then I usually like to damage it, usually with a arm bar, key lock, or just drop knees into the limb & then disarm.
Posted by: bigbair

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/16/07 09:31 AM

2 of the biggest things I disagree with on this video is that he did not move out of the line of fire (already mentioned) and the other is that he grabbed straight for the gun. When we do gun defense we end up with a grip on the wrist and from there we can turn the gun into the robber. From the wrist you can control where the gun is pointing and it is also the beginning of the take down or the disarming of the robber.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/16/07 11:05 PM

I'm not sure what everyone is talking about with him not getting out of the line of fire. The moment he puts his hands on the gun, he is pushing it to his right, therefore puting his body out of the line of fire. If he moves to his left, he just can't push the gun very far becuase his arms are a set length. If he shifts his body more (facing his right), his free hand is not in range to counter.

Am I missing something here?
Posted by: jpoor

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/17/07 09:10 AM

The basic theory is that you should turn your body AND redirect at the same time. The opposite movements take you out of the line of fire faster.

As far as taking his (now back) hand out of range, not really. There are several ways to look at it. You could bend your knees and close the distance if you need. Or you could just close on the guy instead of stepping back with the right foot to turn, step forward with the left.

I'm curious too, though why everyone is harping on him for not turning, because he clearly did. Watch his shoulders and you will see that his torso rotates clockwise as seen from above, and though the camera angle doesn't show it well, I bet it was just enough.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: How do gun disarm - 06/17/07 09:55 AM

I thought he cleared himself sufficiently. I suspect that he might move more if he wasn't talking to the camera. Like I said before, I am not a fan of Krav Maga, but I thought this was not too bad.