Knife defence

Posted by: Shorinjiryumike

Knife defence - 04/18/07 07:02 PM

Dont know if this has been up before......I found this very thought provoking. A sobering reminder of what a knife does and how they are used..... Graphic content.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853
Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Knife defence - 04/18/07 08:01 PM

Absolutely chilling, but yes, thought provoking.
Good find.

BTW... was that Paul Vunak?
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Knife defence - 04/18/07 09:07 PM

I have seen all that info in some form or another. Keep in mind that the reactionary gap (6 ft) described is only a number. Unfortunately, such numbers take on a life of their own depending on who is talking.

Knives don't kill people. People do. A knife needs to be used effectively to significantly injure or kill someone. Vunak made it sound like a cut on his forearm would send him into paralyzing shock in two seconds which is hardly the case . Such information does little except to feed irrational fear of the blade itself and develop a defeatist, "what's the use in fighting? " mindset.

I am no knife fighting guru and I would hate to have to go empty hand against blade under any circumstance, but I believe that many people survive edged weapon encounters with absolutely no training so I have to believe that if I am realistic in my mindset and my training, I might have the same chance of not getting dead.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Knife defence - 04/19/07 12:58 AM

I witnessed an inmate get shanked several years ago in a state (mental health correctional) hospital. When I wrote up my report, I stated that it took 1-2 minutes. But when all the witness reports were analyzed, there were as many numbers as there were witnesses. In reality (during debriefing), it was closer to 2-3 SECONDS! We called this "Time Warp".

The victim was stabbed 4 times (w/ 2 scratches) - all non-fatal wounds. The attacker, already in for murder, went to Folsom.

In Vunak's video, he demonstrates what 2 minutes is but in a real knife attack, there's no sparring or stylized attack/defense moves. It's a rampage, a blur - you only realize what happened AFTER it happened (like the victim - he thought he just got punched).
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Knife defence - 04/19/07 11:11 AM



Horrifying video! It's good for people to see this stuff, though. Illusions need bursting.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Knife defence - 04/19/07 02:32 PM

I have thought long and hard about this information and knife threats in general. I focused on it heavily while taking kali and krav maga. I've probably watched enough Dog Bros. and MKG videos to qualify as a fetishist. I've come to one conclusion: training EXCLUSIVELY for 'knife defense' is stupid. What the video said about seeing the knife is VERY true. Human depth perception sucks, and even if someone has their knife in plain sight you may not see it. So why waste time deluding yourself that your perfect 'knife defense' technique will work? I've decided that the hand to hand techniques you train day in day out are just as good, and if you're more confident and competent with them, you are likely better off. This is not to say the knife isn't going to filet you like a sockeye salmon - it most likely will. So if you see it, run or throw a rock at the attacker. Learning some parkour might be useful.

I also think LEO's really need to take some kind of hand to hand courses. That stuff about an attacker being able to close the gap quickly is all too true. There are four cops in my wing chun class and they all say the same thing - that they can't rely on drawing their gun to QUICKLY defend themselves, especially since they're undercovers and usually find themselves in tight quarters while on duty (bars, apartments, alleys).

Last year, a friend of a former sifu's was sliced open by a boxcutter after fighting four guys off, using his MA skills. He thought the guy who stabbed him was just punching him, didn't see the blade in the dude's hand. Maybe the best defense against a knife is to assume that everyone has one, thus avoiding altercations and violence.

Good video. Thanks.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: Knife defence - 04/20/07 01:53 PM

With the exception that the instructor looked like something out of an 80's movie, watching that video was a lot like being in my dojo. We've always trained the "if you get cut, you have a max of 3 seconds to do whatever you're gonna do" idea. While that's not true 100% of the time, it's a very good idea to act as though it is.

I did think the police demonstrations were kinda dumb. if the guy's 6 feet from you and charging full speed, you oughta KNOW that you don't have time to pull your gun and shoot him - - I think it'd be more effective if they had let the cops do what they would normally do in that situation - the outcome wouldn't change but I think the point would have been made a lot better.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: Knife defence - 04/20/07 03:52 PM

Quote:

I did think the police demonstrations were kinda dumb. if the guy's 6 feet from you and charging full speed, you oughta KNOW that you don't have time to pull your gun and shoot him - - I think it'd be more effective if they had let the cops do what they would normally do in that situation - the outcome wouldn't change but I think the point would have been made a lot better.



Unfortunately, when a person has a superior tool (gun), they tend to feel the need to use it and focus on it rather than other options.

The same applies to a person that has a knife vs. someone without. If the person without grabs the knife weilding arm of the person with, the person with will forget that they can punch with the other hand.

Police are human and can very easily fall into the same trap. MA training is not a big focus of the police that I know.
Posted by: Shorinjiryumike

Re: Knife defence - 04/20/07 04:46 PM

"The same applies to a person that has a knife vs. someone without. If the person without grabs the knife weilding arm of the person with, the person with will forget that they can punch with the other hand."

With all due respect I think the more likely scenario would be that both people would be intently focused on the knife as the lose of its control might mean a serious injury. It has nothing to do with forgetting to punch.

I think that suggesting it is possible to grab a knife wielding assailants arm is not very responsible.

Every time I have worked knife defences I HAVE BEEN CUT repeatedly. Perhaps I am not good at knife defence but I have yet to come away without cuts nor have I seen any knife demos or systems that I think would work in anything other than one steps.

Fletch1 The bit in the video where he cuts the side of beef.

My opinion is if you were slashed on the arms or chest like that your ability to react would be severly compromised. My understanding is that when tendons, ligaments and muscles are cut they cease working.

I cut three of my fingers at work with an OLFA knife. They stopped working almost instantly, that was an accident. Can't imagine what it would be like to have a cut inflicted by someone who wanted to cut me.
Posted by: Shorinjiryumike

Re: Knife defence - 04/20/07 04:56 PM

Fletch,
you are not suggesting to all the vulnerable uninformed young people that frequent this site that it would be a more reasonable thing to fight as opposed to run if you were faced with a knife, or that they would have a chance are you?
Posted by: Saisho

Re: Knife defence - 04/20/07 10:11 PM

Quote:

With all due respect I think the more likely scenario would be that both people would be intently focused on the knife as the lose of its control might mean a serious injury. It has nothing to do with forgetting to punch.



I agree that both people would most likely focus on the knife, but the only reason not to strike the person with the empty hand would be that you were so focused on the knife that you forgot.

Quote:

I think that suggesting it is possible to grab a knife wielding assailants arm is not very responsible.



If you have the opportunity to grab the arm that is holding the thing that is meant to kill you, ABSOLUTLEY grab it. Just don't focus on it so much that you forget to use your other anatomical "weapons"

Quote:

Every time I have worked knife defences I HAVE BEEN CUT repeatedly. Perhaps I am not good at knife defence but I have yet to come away without cuts nor have I seen any knife demos or systems that I think would work in anything other than one steps.



I get "cut" also. Even Guro Dan Inosanto gets "cut" when training. If anyone thinks they can walk away from a knife fight without shedding their own blood is deluded. The objective is to limit the number and locations of your injuries. If an attacker slashes at me with a knife in Sak-Sak position (blade end on thumb side) and I zone and use the back of my arm to pass the attack, I limit the contact to the least vulnerable side of my arm (less bleeding). If I do get slashed, even badly, I don't bleed as much and the muscle/tendons that are cut control the opening of my hand. I would still be fairly able to make a fist and fight.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: Knife defence - 04/20/07 10:20 PM

Quote:



Unfortunately, when a person has a superior tool (gun), they tend to feel the need to use it and focus on it rather than other options.



That's an excellent point - - -but then it brings up the question in the student's mind - - does that mean that it's dangerous to defend against a knife, or just that it's dangerous to defend against a knife if you're not properly trained. I guess I'd like to have seen the video make the point that no matter WHAT the cop did at that point, he/she was in all likelihood going to get cut.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Knife defence - 04/21/07 11:37 AM

Quote:

Fletch,
you are not suggesting to all the vulnerable uninformed young people that frequent this site that it would be a more reasonable thing to fight as opposed to run if you were faced with a knife, or that they would have a chance are you?



Not at all. I hope it did not come across that way. There is a fine line between being realistic and being defeatist. Statistically, many more people survive edged weapon assaults even without training than is implied in the video. If I am cornered and cannot escape and am forced to defend myself against a blade weilding attacker, I have to believe that it is possible to survive...even if I get cut or stabbed. To program yourself that you will automatically go into shock in two seconds, in my opinion, predisposes you to give up once you (inevitably) get cut. It makes a supremely difficult task even harder.

Respect the capabilities of the blade. Respect the physical abilities of an attacker armed with a blade. Run away or create distance. Engage only when absolutely necessary and left without alternatives. Clear the weapon from your body. Control the armed limb. Counter viciously.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: Knife defence - 04/21/07 12:03 PM

Quote:

To program yourself that you will automatically go into shock in two seconds, in my opinion, predisposes you to give up once you (inevitably) get cut.



I think it has the opposite effect- predisposing you to finish the fight fast without farting around. Incapacitate him before you become incapacitated.
Posted by: KJ63

Re: Knife defence - 04/21/07 12:34 PM

I think there is too much of the video that is inconsistent...

The biggest problem I have with this video is this idiot says, "If you’re up against someone with a knife you should, run, hide and I can't hear the 3rd one." In all of the scenarios the knife is concealed, so you don't know your up against someone with a knife. I hate to tell you this but if your in the same scenario and you attempt to do what this he tells suggest you do: turn and run. You would fail to turn and run just as the person failed to draw the gun, but they don't show you this. Believe me, I do tons of scenario based training and we have tried it.

The video shows the stats from Darren Laur's "The Anatomy Of Fear and How It Relates To Survival Skills Training." http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html The training scenario was done by Jail Officers, who had received some edged weapon training but how much we don't really know. My guess is not enough to make it a reactionary thing. I spent several years in law enforcement and the training is very minimal.

This video said 1 out of the 85 successfully repelled the attack, although I couldn't find this statistic anywhere in Darren's article. What the article does say is, "most flinched, bringing both hands up to protect their head while crouching at the same time, and attempted to disengage from the attacker by backing away from the threat. This usually resulted in the attacker closing the gap quite quickly with their victim. Those officers that did engage the threat immediately, proceeded to effectively block the initial strike of the attacker and then immediately grappled with the attacker using elbows and knee strikes."

If someone wanted to hurt you they will. Try walking around a big city, through a mall or store and attempt to stay 12' to 14' away from everyone. Most officers who think they are witnessing a crime, or come up on someone committing a crime (like their scenario of the guy prying at the window) will already have there gun drawn.

If the situation ever comes up where I'm confronted with a knife, and I cannot get away (and I prey to God it never happens), I'd rather have had some knife training rather than none at all. People should understand the consequences.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Knife defence - 04/21/07 01:31 PM

Looked like a bunch of garbage to me.

"Within a few seconds the body goes into shock" referring to a forearm cut.

18 feet for a foot long knife? Why?

You notice that none of the "Cops" tried any other manuever other than reaching for their gun. No footwork, no defense, no offense, reaching for the gun only.

Now if most of the cops didnt see the gun, as the link suggests, then they never would have reached for a gun in the first place. They have standards for using lethal force.

Also, where is his baton, mace, and backup?

Absolute garbage. The guy with the knife, though skilled, was obviously a MA and not a real knife fighter. It was evident in his delivery, and positioning of the blade.

All in all, Id say come up with a better plan. Besides, if you have eighteen feet, just run.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: Knife defence - 04/21/07 03:44 PM

Quote:

The biggest problem I have with this video is this idiot says, "If you’re up against someone with a knife you should, run, hide and I can't hear the 3rd one." In all of the scenarios the knife is concealed, so you don't know your up against someone with a knife.



Good point, which is why I advocate running, hiding, and (I don't know what his third one is either but mine is) talking your way out of it if at all possible, in ANY fight, weapon or not.

Quote:

I hate to tell you this but if your in the same scenario and you attempt to do what this he tells suggest you do: turn and run. You would fail to turn and run just as the person failed to draw the gun, but they don't show you this.



I don't think you're necessarilly right about that. The cop wasted a lot of time struggling with his (and her) gun. Turning 180 degrees takes an instant. Then once you start running you automatically lengthen the time it takes for him to get to you. At that point, hopefully, you're faster than him.
Quote:

This video said 1 out of the 85 successfully repelled the attack,



I'm going purely on recall here, but I believe it was 1 in 85 recognized that he had been cut - and 3 in 85 noticed that there was a knife.


Quote:

If the situation ever comes up where I'm confronted with a knife, and I cannot get away (and I prey to God it never happens), I'd rather have had some knife training rather than none at all. People should understand the consequences.



Agreed. My philosophy is to know what to do against a knife, but also to know that if you go against a knife you WILL get cut and therefore it's just a good idea to avoid the whole thing if possible in the first place. I have a real problem with those classes that teach knife defense, and then tell their students "OK, now if anyone comes after you with a knife you'll kick their ass!" I think that's what this "idiot" is trying to stop, and as such even if I don't agree with every scenario he went through, I can't fault him for his motives.
Posted by: Curly

Re: Knife defence - 04/22/07 01:42 AM

Thats scary as hell. Yeah, the dude with the knife may have been skilled, but its still really effin scary. I'd just fire a side kick into his chest before he could strike me and run like hell. Only pussys use knives anyway.
Posted by: KJ63

Re: Knife defence - 04/22/07 02:36 AM

Shadowkahn, I think you need to watch the video again.
The stats they list are according to the video:

First slide:
The results were remarkable:
* 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact!
* 10/85 realized they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario!

Second slide:
72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over...

Thrid slide:
... only one policeman of 85 defended himself against the knife...

If you would like to read the actual article where the information quoted in this video came from go to:
http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html
...and as I said in my first posting the original article doesn't say anything about one officer defending himself. It says that those officers that did engage the threat immediately, proceeded to effectively block the initial strike of the attacker and then immediately grappled with the attacker using elbows and knee strikes.

Quote:

I don't think you're necessarilly right about that. The cop wasted a lot of time struggling with his (and her) gun. Turning 180 degrees takes an instant. Then once you start running you automatically lengthen the time it takes for him to get to you. At that point, hopefully, you're faster than him.


As I said in my previous post, we have tried this several times from some of the same distances they are talking about 6 to 12 feet. If you are facing a person and you wait until the person has started running toward you, you better be an olympic spinter to think your going to turn 180 and start running in the same direct and hope to get away when all of his momentum is already headed that way. Now remember they're not sitting there set to run, they are attempting to interact, stop, or question the person. Officers don't walk up to people set and ready to run away. In these types of scenarios you are actually better off moving in east/west direct, get out of his path, and make the person change directions, possibly making him lunge, or even fall.

The reason I used the word "idiot" is because putting people in impracticle situations (as Chen Zen stated with the police officers) does little to prove a point. They did not explore any other options, and made it look like the "only" option was to run. Many police officers are taught to move and draw a weapon, and not to make themselves stationary targets. It's no better than the "idiots" who use non-resistant attackers to teach people knife techniques and making them believe they can now pull them off.

Would you want all of your city police officers, deputies or troopers running every time they see a weapon????

Also, what the video doesn't tell you about Darren Laur's study and the scenario he was using to get the stats is where an officer finds a non-responsive inmate. The officer enters the cell and attempts to physically check the inmate when the the inmate responds with a knife. The statistics in the real situation was done at point blank range, another thing the video doesn't tell you.
Posted by: shadowkahn

Re: Knife defence - 04/22/07 10:16 AM

Quote:

Shadowkahn, I think you need to watch the video again.



I got that fantastically wrong didn't I

Quote:

As I said in my previous post, we have tried this several times from some of the same distances they are talking about 6 to 12 feet. If you are facing a person and you wait until the person has started running toward you, you better be an olympic spinter to think your going to turn 180 and start running in the same direct and hope to get away when all of his momentum is already headed that way.



True, but why are you waiting until he charges?

Quote:

Now remember they're not sitting there set to run, they are attempting to interact, stop, or question the person. Officers don't walk up to people set and ready to run away.



Which is another reason I think the cop scenario was unrealistic for those of us who aren't in law enforcement. If someone comes after me with a knife, I'm trying to survive, not arrest him.

Quote:

In these types of scenarios you are actually better off moving in east/west direct, get out of his path, and make the person change directions, possibly making him lunge, or even fall.



True, but they were in some sort of alleyway in one of the scenes and that wasn't an option.


Quote:

The reason I used the word "idiot" is because putting people in impracticle situations (as Chen Zen stated with the police officers) does little to prove a point.



Here we 100% agree - I think I mentioned that it wasn't realistic farther up in the thread. I think his points are pretty valid - they basically boil down to "if you get in a knife fight, you're in deep trouble." But yes, he should have found more convincing examples to make that point.

Quote:

They did not explore any other options, and made it look like the "only" option was to run. Many police officers are taught to move and draw a weapon, and not to make themselves stationary targets.



In their defense, this video seemed a little chopped up to me - - I'm almost wondering if there wasn't more that went into the "you can't run or hide or talk your way out of it" scenario.

Quote:

Would you want all of your city police officers, deputies or troopers running every time they see a weapon????



No, but again, that was my initial objection to this video - using cops who are constrained to certain actions (they can't run, they can't hide).
Posted by: Glockmeister

Re: Knife defence - 04/22/07 10:17 AM

Quote:

Maybe the best defense against a knife is to assume that everyone has one, thus avoiding altercations and violence.

Good video. Thanks.



I agree wholeheartedly. In Krav, Haganah and JKD we alwasy usualkly assume our attacker will be armed with a weapon.,
As to the link provided, that scenereo actually happened to a brother officer I work with as well who thought the guy may have dies and the inmate turned on him and tried to stab him.
Posted by: kicksomearse

Re: Knife defence - 04/26/07 09:36 AM

At jujuitsu, we are taught self defence against knives. It has been very beneficial, and while on the mat, you can learn from mistakes, on the street, there is no room for error.

Anyone who comes at me with a knife, well, it will be the last mistake they make.
Posted by: schanne

Re: Knife defence - 04/26/07 10:09 AM

Never new our bodies went into shock that quick after a good slice hits you. Wow, the time period is not very long to get out of a situation...3-5 seconds and your body starts to shut down & go into shock...now that's scary! I'm glad you posted this, it just goes to show how dangerous a blade can be:(
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Knife defence - 04/26/07 10:23 AM

Quote:

Anyone who comes at me with a knife, well, it will be the last mistake they make.



A word of caution. No matter how good your defence is, you will get cut. You may get to choose where, but you will get cut so you may, if possible, still wish to avoid a knife weilding assailant at all costs. If you have no choice, I hope your training helps you to survive and escape but do not going in thinking you will come out of the confrontation without a scratch. I have been training knife defences for years and I still know the best defence is avoidance of a situation that has me fighting a knife weilding attacker.

Scottie
Posted by: Shorinjiryumike

Re: Knife defence - 04/26/07 04:51 PM

Well said Scottie!
Posted by: Shorinjiryumike

Re: Knife defence - 04/26/07 04:57 PM

Chen Zen I just have to ask you this. How do you define someone as a "real knife fighter" and how would one have acted ? You mention they would have held the blade differently and that a knife fighters delivery would be different. Could you elaborate on this please.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Knife defence - 04/27/07 04:06 AM

Well theres several things. First of all, a skilled knife fighter isnt going to allow you to see the blade until after its made contact with your body. You may catch a glimpse of it just before it gets you. He isnt going to present it 6,10, or 18 feet away such as in the scenario.

Also, an attacker so bold as to pull a weapon with the intent to kill you is going to do so in a very savage manner. Once he is close enough to cut you he is going to stab and slash wildly. Thats not to say there isnt certain technique about it.

He is going to aim for areas that will drain quickly and kill you quietly. He isnt going to slash your abdomen and gut you leaving you screaming. More likely he would Puncture a lung, diaphram or the heart, or poisinous organs such as the liver, appendix or kidneys.

He wants to kill you quickly, possibly rob you as well, and get away without getting seen.
Posted by: KJ63

Re: Knife defence - 04/28/07 01:35 PM

Here are 6 videos that give you a good idea what a real knife attack is like. The 6th one takes a while to load but it is worth it.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/multimedia.htm
Posted by: Glockmeister

Re: Knife defence - 04/29/07 09:32 AM

Chen, you make some valid points. However I think most "Knife defense" techniques are geared more towards the attacker who is coming at you in a rage either overcommitting to a thrusting or an "ice pick" attack or something of that nature. they also deal a lot more with knife threats i.e. holding a knife at your throat and demanding your wallet, that you come with them, etc. Dealing with a skilled knife fighter, I would either want to run away or at minimum, deploy my own weapon if at all possible. I don't think the act of keeping a weapon hidden untill a bad guy is ready to kill you with it takes a "skilled knife fighter" it just takes soemone who is sneaky and understands the power of surprise attack. that is why situational awareness is so important.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Knife defence - 04/29/07 01:07 PM

Scottie, just wanted to add a little to yours.

Where I'm from, it's not even possible to choose whether or not you face a knife. Sometimes you just get stabbed before you even know it.

All that training in the dojo helps, but unless you're put into a situation where you pretty much know how and when the knife strike arrives, you're pretty much toast. Better start using nike-fu.

-Taison out
Posted by: TomTom

Re: Knife defence - 04/29/07 02:54 PM

Nike-Fu is the best defence by a long way.
The Metropolitan Police in London, now use the 100% rule - if they can't see you hand it will have an edged weapon in it.

Intrestingly tho - your more likely to get stabbed with a screwdiver rather than a knife in the UK.
An actual knife is like 3rd on the list. You much more likley to feel the wrong end of a glass or a screwdriver.

Either - run and run
I teach arrest and restraint in the UK to Customs, and the same package is used for the Police. Basically unless you've got a spray or baton, you shouldn't be there.
Nike-Fu everytime. And maybe some Parkour training thrown in for good measure!