Complimentary Art For BJJ

Posted by: BJJBrazil

Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/14/07 09:33 PM

Hi

I've been doing alot of reading around here on the forums. I've been doing BJJ for around 4 months and was wondering what the best complimentary art would be for my BJJ??? I specifically want this art to be good for real self defense and not just "sport". Real life situations. As we know real life violence is entirely different than sport. Thanks.


BJJBrazil
Posted by: migo

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/14/07 09:39 PM

Wrestling's good, especially if you work your way up to the collegiate level.
Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/14/07 09:49 PM

I recommend a stand-up, striking art. TKD, Karate, HapKiDo, etc... they're all good complimentary arts, as long as the school is legitimately geared toward self-defense.

BJJ is awesome on the ground, but if you wind up in a streetfight, you want to try and keep from going to the ground, in case your attacker has a buddy lurking in the shadows.

Strike hard, knock him down, run away.
Posted by: Umbra_777

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/14/07 09:51 PM

Muay Thai. Boxing (although it lacks kicks and stuff which is a downside), Judo, good Aikido, good Karate/Taekwondo, a reputable combatives system (avoid ones that overly appeal to macho fantasys). Basicly it would probably be good to get a standing martial art to compliment your experience on the ground.

-Umbra
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/14/07 10:51 PM

Boxing, wrestling and jits all done together = MMA. Do that.


-John
Posted by: Taison

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/14/07 11:39 PM

Muay Thai. 'nuff said.

-Taison out
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/15/07 01:17 PM

Agree with all, just make sure it is a good school teaching quality techniques.
Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/15/07 01:27 PM

Despite the fact that BJJBrazil has been outed as a troll, and summarily banned, I'm going to leave this thread open, because it's a good topic for discussion.
Posted by: ShikataGaNai

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/15/07 04:11 PM

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Samuel-Kwok-Carlson-Gracie-Double-Impact-DVD-p/sk01.htm

Here's an example of how Carlson Gracie Sr.(RIP) and Sigung Samuel Kwok combined BJJ with Wing Chun.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 03:30 PM

It seems as though lots of people naturally assume that MT & BJJ are made for each other. I think that comes from the popularity of MMA.

Pardon my ignorance but isn't MT light on sweeps, throws & off-balancing? I know that there are people out there who will claim that MT "has everything" but as a sport (as hard-core as it is), it's a stand-up game.

Karate, Kung-fu, Shorinji-Kempo & other traditional "stand-up" MA have the benefit of throws, sweeps & off-balancing within their systems. I'm not going so far as to claim that Naihanchi kata has grappling techniques in it but it's not a stretch to see BJJ/Judo/Sui-Chao/Wrestling as a logical extension of these so-called "striking arts".

BTW: I don't see it the other way around (karate is an extension of BJJ for example) because you usually start standing & MAY end up on the ground.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 03:35 PM

Quote:

Pardon my ignorance but isn't MT light on sweeps, throws & off-balancing? I know that there are people out there who will claim that MT "has everything" but as a sport (as hard-core as it is), it's a stand-up game.




Not the MT I have seen. They do indeed allow sweeps, some throws, and off-balancing. Certainly their grappling is not going to be judo or greco-roman level, but MT folk are respected for their stand-up grappling as much as their striking.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 03:51 PM

If a really good muay thai exponent sinks a clinch, they can throw you, sweep you, trip you, push you, pull you or just plain break you neck depending on how they are feeling at the time. That is spoken as someone who has been in a clinch of that quality, not as someone who can perform it.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 05:39 PM

Quote:

It seems as though lots of people naturally assume that MT & BJJ are made for each other. I think that comes from the popularity of MMA.




Any art can compliment another art, especially when it comes to stand up and ground martial arts. It is all in how you train it. If you can train it as one flawlessly filling in all of the gaps then the better. And perhaps you will need other arts to help fill those holes ... but everything comes down to training. Karate, Muay Thai, Taekwondo, etc. They all have something to offer and when these arts are practiced in their non-sport aspect they include pretty much most things you need and BJJ or other grappling arts will only make them better. IMO
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 05:39 PM

Quote:

It seems as though lots of people naturally assume that MT & BJJ are made for each other. I think that comes from the popularity of MMA.

Pardon my ignorance but isn't MT light on sweeps, throws & off-balancing? I know that there are people out there who will claim that MT "has everything" but as a sport (as hard-core as it is), it's a stand-up game.





It (the chosen stand-up art, muay Thai in this case) shouldn’t NEED to be heavy on the sweeps, throws, etc. That is what the Brazilian jiu-jitsu should have going for IT. In other words, there should be an art that compliments the grappling art -- not necessarily another grappling art. An art to develop the stand-up game is more of what’s being called for here.

As far as sweeps and throws are concerned, in years past, BJJ has been decent with takedowns, horrible with takedowns and now good with takedowns again. I’m sure I’ve lost some of you on that. What that means is, at one time, the BJJ guys were good at taking guys down because no one really trained grappling all that much. Then in came the wrestlers and all of a sudden the BJJ guys couldn’t take ANYONE down!

Segue to the present and now you’re finding BJJ guys who were/are wrestlers or are learning decent takedowns (not the “Gracie style” garbage the Gracie academy was teaching) as a part of their BJJ training. That is definitely not always the case. There are some folks not training wrestling as part of their BJJ. I’m not speaking for them however. They are behind the curve.

In short, the BJJ guys don’t need another grappling art. They need a striking art. And honestly, muay Thai answers that for the most part (limit the kicks though please if you haven’t been kicking all your damned life). I would definitely say that the Thai stuff that would yield the most benefit are the knees and elbows from the clinch. Muay Thai’s positional control, sweeping and throwing is NOTHING compared to that of Greco-Roman -- but again, that should already be a standard part of BJJ training.



-John
Posted by: Tom2199

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 06:10 PM

Not much point learning 2 separate systems unless you know how to put them together, even if you have some sort of natural talent you need to train it with a partner. MMA classes will solve both those problems.
Posted by: nahate

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 07:29 PM

At the risk of seeming too pedantic I need to respond to this common vocabulary error. Literacy is important!
I doubt very much we are talking about finding a martial art that says nice things about BJJ. That's what complimentary means.
An art that fills in the gaps, that is to say complements another is what is being sought here.
Poor form can render any technique ineffective. Poor verbal form can render thinking ineffective. Be well rounded!
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 07:49 PM

Matt & Cord...I know that MT has techniques to off-balance etc. but what happens after the opponent goes down? The Ref lets him get back up & they begin again. Traditional MT doesn't train to follow through - that's what I meant by "light". That's the primary "gap" thast needs filling; the "now what...oh yeah" moment after a guy goes down.

Admittedly most karate styles have the same problem but as I mentioned, kata provides many Strike > Throw/sweep > Follow-up combinations. Whether you F/U w/ Judo Newaza, BJJ or Jujutsu is the next level of MA development.
Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 08:25 PM

Nahate...

Let's not pick nits. The meaning was clear through context. Typos needn't be taken so seriously, OK?

After all, the word 'complementary' also means "characterized by the capacity for precise pairing of purine and pyrimidine bases between strands of DNA and sometimes RNA such that the structure of one strand determines the other"

We're also not talking about the basic chemical building blocks of BJJ.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Complimentary Art For BJJ - 02/16/07 10:40 PM

Hedkikr,

In Lumphini and Rajdamnoern, in the clinch if you're able to throw him to the ground, you are allowed to kick him in the face. It's called "Wieng daam nam" (flow with the water). And those kicks are usually knock out kicks, none of that "light" tap to the face. I'm talking free-kick "soccer" style.

The ref doesn't interfere if you threw the guy down on exception it wasn't a wrestling or judo throw. So no over the shoulder throw, or double-leg take down.

Coming from a MT background, I find MT to be very valuable when it comes to kick-counters. My MT training actually helped to build a good foundation on my judo, as sweeping, tripping and clinching were natural to me. Just needed refinement.

Nowadays, I use a greco-roman wrestling clinch but every now and then I throw in the MT clinch to have fun.

The MT clinch is one fun game to play. They can push, pull, trip, sweep, throw or strike you. A lot of things you need to put into consideration before you enter the clinch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPfukurJdw

At 00:47, it's a perfectly legal move. That's not very "light" in follow up.

Many BJJ take MT to make themselves accustomed to striking, but they'll drop all the MT stuff as soon as they get into the octagon. All those sweeps, throws, etc etc, it's mostly BJJ with the punch, kick, elbow and knees being MT.

Are they perfectly natural for one another? Maybe, depends on the person.

I enjoy my Judo Muay Thai mix better.

-Taison out