Horrifying knife attack

Posted by: MattJ

Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 06:00 PM

Now normally I don't post these kinds of things, but sometimes it's important to see what happens outside the training hall. Ferocious unprovoked attack -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY2T5DIxLYg
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 06:55 PM

I wonder what drugs that guy was on, seeing as it took how many blows to the head to get the guy to even notice and to start blocking!

Laura
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 07:06 PM

Shocking! The realities of knife fighting are quite stunning whenever they are shown. I wonder how anyone could think that a lot of the knife defense techniques taught these days would work in a situation such as that. I didn't even see the knife until around 20s after it was drawn, nor could I have predicted an attack like that would happen. There was one give-away the second time I watched the video though, the guy had his hand behind his back as he entered the shop and he took around 2 seconds to remove it from behind his belt, which may have been enough time to react... just. (It would take a LOT of luck to get away from that situation unharmed)
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 07:16 PM

Whoa!
Posted by: Blackrainbow

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 07:36 PM

Also note that the guard was packing heat but never had the chance to even get near his pistol. This is a real eye opener for anyone who thinks that they are "ready" for an armed bad guy. It also illustrates what happens when you live life with your head up your butt. Great security!!!
Posted by: aoishi

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 07:44 PM

Guard shouldn't have been so near the door AND sitting down.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 08:41 PM

There are several things I would like to point out.

1. If a person wants to kill you with a knife, they have the advantage. No knife training can make you psychic enough to know that a person is going to plunge a hidden knife into you. Once it is drawn, you have a chance as the guard showed.

2. The guard should not have been so close to the door, as was mentioned. I think the thought was that a visible, armed guard would keep trouble away.

3. If you are aware of the knife, or trouble in general, you stand a good chance. I think the guard was alert enough to catch onto the situation quickly enough to limit his injury.

4. While adrenaline and determination are strong driving forces, I agree that the attacker was probably on something.

I try to make sure I am aware of my surroundings. I consider everyone I do not know a threat. That thinking will not make me safe from a knife attack, but it will increase my odds. My knife training will also increase my odds once the knife is known.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 09:15 PM

Don't fear the knife. Fear the man with the knife.

If you aren't attacking, you are defending...

Glad someone finally helped out the securtiy officer. He was on his own for a while.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:05 PM

Quote:

I consider everyone I do not know a threat.




I even keep an eye on people I do know and trust. A lot of assaults and rapes are inflicted by people the victims are very close to.

Did anyone else notice how similar the position they were in was to a Judo clinch? I'll warrant that if the security guard was a fluent grappler (particularly in competitive Judo), the attacker would have hit the ground a lot earlier than he did and the guard's injuries may have been less serious. Food for thought.
Posted by: Blackrainbow

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:12 PM

One thing we do not know is the condition of the victim after the assault. Is he alive? What were his injuries? It's really hard to judge how effective his defense was without knowledge of the outcome.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:12 PM

One of the worst cuttings I've ever seen was a guy who had a small pocket knife with a blade less than 3 inches long. He grabbed his victim in a bear-hug, and literally cut shoestrings out of his back muscles.

The security guard in this You-tube incident was constantly moving away from the knife, and sticking in parts of his body to be cut and stabbed. He did nothing to attempt to actually stop the attacker because he was busy trying to back up and push off. He was lucky that others pitched in and beat the guy off with chairs and sticks, or he'd probably be dead now.

It would have made sense for him to pick up his stool when he stood up, and use it to either fend the guy off, or beat the bejesus out of him with it. Obviously not a "highly trained security professional"...

I feel sad for him...

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:14 PM

I think that even a highly trained professional would have difficulty in such a situation...
Posted by: bo-ken

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:25 PM

I agree that was a tough. No matter if you were trained or not that guy was taking shots to the head over and over again. What were they hitting him with? Is the guard ok or was he cut I couldn't tell.
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:44 PM

Whether the attacker was on something or not, his resilience was very impressive.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 10:50 PM

Complete unawareness from the guard. If you watch the tape, note that the guards head moves, to look at the assailant when he tried to open the wrong side of the door. This is at or about the ten second mark, from here he has about seven seconds before the knife is fully out. The fact that he survived was nothing short of a miracle.

And the assailant was definately doped up.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/27/06 11:54 PM

Quote:

What were they hitting him with?




I believe, by the way the rod bent, that the owner was hitting the attacker with a metal broom handle or something of similar thickness.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/28/06 08:41 AM

Quote:

One thing we do not know is the condition of the victim after the assault. Is he alive? What were his injuries? It's really hard to judge how effective his defense was without knowledge of the outcome.




Voice over mentions that the guard was taken to hospital and, incredibly, discharged that night. Was it effective? Am sure it could've went better for the guard (easy to sit at our keyboards and say that thought) but heck, any one you can walk away from with no lasting damage is a success in my book.
Posted by: Blackrainbow

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/28/06 11:25 AM

I agree. Despite the guard making some terrible decisions as to situational awareness I guess he had some fast hands, good skills and put them to work. I'm sure luck played a part too.
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/28/06 11:41 AM

I think adrenaline was a bid factor in it.
Posted by: Ted_Karate

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/28/06 04:10 PM

Poor position for security, fairly obvious in a robbery anyone by the door is going to be the first one threatened or sucker punched. Also you'd think people behind the counter would have reacted faster although when the response came it was effective.
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/28/06 07:24 PM

The only thing that was effective about the actions of the shop keeper as far as I could see was that it delayed him to the point that the police got there.
Posted by: Alex89

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/28/06 09:24 PM

Wow! I don't think that any type of self-defense could of have helped the guard there.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/29/06 01:05 PM

Hi Matt,

Yes any unprovoked assault which might be deadly is horrifying.

Of course from a purely technical analysis, the person was incompetent because the victum lived, thank god for that.

There was as study a few years back I saw discussed that trained police officers walking down the street, and attacked by a chalk knife wielding assailant, suddenly, in most cases were unaware of the attack till cut, and many even didn't belive they were cut up till the chalk marks were pointed out.

Awareness is the key issue, a knife can be kept so concealed, even when openly displayed, that the defender's senses don't react quickly enough.

Compare that to the security guard's lax manner. It's rather obvious his sole purpose was to be there to grab snatch and run types. probably had been doing the job for too long, and both he and the store owner/manager didn't appreciate the danger of him sitting out there.

Many important issues to consider.
Posted by: Dedicated1

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/29/06 05:07 PM

Just a few things I noticed in the video.
1) The Guard saw the man trying to open the wrong side of the door, stumble around a little bit and then walk in. At that point the guard should have stood up.

2) After the attack has begun, the Guard never once hit the attacker, nothing has been done to defend himself other than trying to get a hold of the knife hand of the attacker. The only blows to the attacker were sent by people around him.

The attacker was obviously "on something" to let the blows to his head go almost unnoticed. If the guard had become the attacker, he would have defended better than he did. I am glad he has lived to see another day. Hopefully he has learned from this experience. As mentioned before, knife attacks are serious and very frightening. All you can do is limit your wounds and fight to stay alive.
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/30/06 04:46 PM

What I don't get is 'why' he attacked him.
Maybe it was because he was on somthing but if for any other reason then what?

Revenge maybe? Why did he stab the first peron who was closest to him in the shop? why not someone else?
It seems to me that the guard was a pre-meditated target assuming that it wasn't a random attack caused by whatever it was he may have been on (if not drugs, adrenaline maybe?).
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/30/06 04:56 PM

Perhaps because the guard is the most likely person to put up resistance against the robber. (I presume the guy was going to rob the store, looks like it might be a jewelry store)
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/30/06 05:20 PM

In that case wouldn't stick up tactics be more effective? Since it was a concealed weapon he could have got into an advantagous position and taken a hostage until he got the money in the bag and then got out of there with little trouble, unless he got arrested first.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/30/06 05:47 PM

Good point. However, not everyone is that smart.
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/30/06 05:50 PM

Then that goes back to either he was on somthing or he targeted the guy in the first place, or he 'was' that stupid.
Posted by: mark

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/31/06 11:51 AM

Im sure that you have all been in this sort of sitiation several times and that gives you an accurate position to judge from.

none of us would get bored at work and drift off, or sit down,
Nor would we allow our selves to be suprised by a knife whelding attacker.
We all would manitain a warriors awareness at all times.

Most definatly when under attack, none of us would feel fear or even panic, go into shock, suffer pain and blood loss.

we WOULD all draw upon years of training and in true movie style defeat the attacker with ease.

AS Leo says, we would use our Judo, grappling skills to get the knife REALLY close to us so that we could gain complete control over the blade and attacker.


Mark

PS: i wonder, was the guard wearing a stab vest?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 12/31/06 12:01 PM

Quote by mark -

Quote:

none of us would get bored at work and drift off, or sit down,
Nor would we allow our selves to be suprised by a knife whelding attacker.
We all would manitain a warriors awareness at all times.




I must agree with Mark. Having worked security for a while when I was younger, I can say that it is easy to become complacent when most of the work is uneventful.
Posted by: Landus

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/01/07 05:47 PM

I agree with aoishi, straight away I thought the secruity guard shouldn't have been sitting down. When the first two people came in, he actually looked away briefly; he looked very vulnerable. I think if the man's adrenaline was running high enough, he wouldn't have noticed the chair/mop attacks as much; they weren't incredibly hard. The knifer looked as if he was just trying to sink the blade but didn't have the precision. Ferocious.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/01/07 06:12 PM

Quote:

Im sure that you have all been in this sort of sitiation several times and that gives you an accurate position to judge from.

none of us would get bored at work and drift off, or sit down,
Nor would we allow our selves to be suprised by a knife whelding attacker.
We all would manitain a warriors awareness at all times.

Most definatly when under attack, none of us would feel fear or even panic, go into shock, suffer pain and blood loss.

we WOULD all draw upon years of training and in true movie style defeat the attacker with ease.

AS Leo says, we would use our Judo, grappling skills to get the knife REALLY close to us so that we could gain complete control over the blade and attacker.


Mark

PS: i wonder, was the guard wearing a stab vest?




I really don't get your point. What are you trying to cause a ruckus? This is a good thread and a good discussion. It will open many peoples' eyes to the dangers of knife attacks. I don't want this thread closed because of some silly argument. If that happens, peoples' eyes will remain closed and ineffective, dangerous disarming techniques will continue to be taught. Perhaps with this information, someone may decide against such training and that may save someone's life. Who knows?

Taking statements out of context doesn't help anything. I'm getting tired of this happening.

What do you think we think we are? Invincible? Give me a break.

Yes it's possible to get off better than the guard did and no, it's not that difficult. Even just sitting away from the door, a simple habit which is easy to stick to, even when complacent, would have helped him sustain less injury. Protocols and common sense exist for our own safety.

I despair when I hear people give a blanket "there's nothing you can do to protect yourself" statement. If you believe that, why do you train?

What have you got against grappling anyway? If you've not trained in the Judo clinch (as would seem apparent by your comment), what point is there in your commenting on its effectiveness or lack thereof? It is evident that training in this situation is valuable because it occurred there on the video whether the attacker/guard wanted it or not. You should admit your lack of experience in certain stances to avoid misleading the readers of this forum when you comment on them.

Without grappling, almost any weapon disarm is ineffective because you have to hold onto your attacker to disarm them. I admit that I am no expert on disarms but I've seen enough to know that this is an almost universal principle.
Posted by: MarkW

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/01/07 07:39 PM

I agree with Mark...assuming he is being sarcastic?
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/01/07 07:52 PM

That's clear enough, however, simply implying that nothing anyone has suggested could help in that situation doesn't help anything. Such statements are only bait for arguments and usually result in thread-locking.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/02/07 04:21 PM

There's another aspect to facing a blade that hasn't been mentioned, Shock.

As I understand it, when a blade penetrates as little as 3 centimeters, the body experiences shock from the event. Shock is the literal physical response to the insertion, and everyone reacts naturally for themselves.

Some people will immediatly go out. Others will react with vigor, and training has nothing to do with how one reacts to the shock of penetration, its a total involuntary response.

Which implies not getting cut makes far more sense than how you respond when you have been.
Posted by: Ippon_Me_Mae

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/02/07 05:23 PM

if you look closely, you can tell where he is ost hurt. he is sliced several times in the ar due to blocking, i think stabbed at least 2-3 times in the torso, ainly in the chest. Given medical help soon enough, he could live.
Posted by: mark

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/02/07 08:48 PM

I was indeed being sarcastic and typing with my special IRONY keyboard.

Leo, that poor guard was attacked in the REAL world, not the dojo, or the often fictional world of this forum.

I despair at the comments:- “Guard shouldn't have been so near the door AND sitting down. : Don't fear the knife. Fear the man with the knife.: the guard making some terrible decisions as to situational awareness


The surreal world of the cyber warrior.

Security are at the door often to vet the suitability of customers to enter, or to deter customers from passing them with stolen stock

The guard did very well not to DIE!! As for the hits from mop and chairs, they clearly were not substantial enough or with heavy enough implements. Silly attacker didn’t stand still like the do in training… Neither did he stop struggling as they do in training…

Leo I have NOTHING against grappling arts, I hold a 3rd dan in Jujitsu myself, its just the defence principle of “close on the knife and take him to the ground “ makes me shudder…. Best way to disarm, is to render an opponent unconscious, trading a cut arm for a KO strike is a very reasonable exchange in the real world. Now im not saying hit him only once, LOL right arm should be like a steam piston running at 10000rpm.

Not sure why you say “What do you think we think we are? Invincible? Give me a break.”
Perhaps my sarcasm was too thin, Sorry I confused you.

LEO don’t be so fragile, enjoy the debate, I know your still a boy, but chill out lad.

Sorry to burst the bubble guys, but if you get attacked with a blade, you will Sh*t yourselves, and many of you will freeze, MUST of us will get cut.

It is a great training video, I have certainly added it to my collection

Victor, I did indeed mention shock myself, your point is well made and very accurate, thank you. Perhaps we could run a thread discussing the effects of shock……

Regards

Mark
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 10:55 AM

Quote:

I despair at the comments:- “Guard shouldn't have been so near the door AND sitting down. : Don't fear the knife. Fear the man with the knife.: the guard making some terrible decisions as to situational awareness




Are you saying that it was smart to sit next to the door right in front of where an attacker would strike? He was just asking to be stabbed by doing so. Sitting away from the door would have definitely given him more time to react. Maybe even deploy his holstered firearm.

Quote:

Security are at the door often to vet the suitability of customers to enter, or to deter customers from passing them with stolen stock




Explain the firearm. The guard would not need a firearm if he were only there to nab a runner.

Quote:

The guard did very well not to DIE!! As for the hits from mop and chairs, they clearly were not substantial enough or with heavy enough implements. Silly attacker didn’t stand still like the do in training… Neither did he stop struggling as they do in training…




You train to stand still when hit? I only train to submission.

Quote:

Leo I have NOTHING against grappling arts, I hold a 3rd dan in Jujitsu myself, its just the defence principle of “close on the knife and take him to the ground “ makes me shudder….




You can not deny that the Judo clinch occurred. Hence, any experience in that stance would be beneficial. Saying that experience in a fighting situation which occurred is useless is just silly.

Quote:

Best way to disarm, is to render an opponent unconscious, trading a cut arm for a KO strike is a very reasonable exchange in the real world.




It can take several minutes to get a KO strike in a championship boxing match. Even the best fighters in the world can take that long to get a KO. Aiming for a KO will prolong the stabbing. In the few years I spent contact sparring, I was only KOed once and I was only knocked down on two occasions. Simply saying "just KO the guy" is no different from any suggestion which works in the Dojo. That's the thing I don't like about traditional JJ. Every traditional JJ mindset I've encountered endeavours to suggest that what works in the Dojo won't work in real life. If that's the case, what's the point of going to the Dojo to train? My goodness, have you been wasting all these years of your life in martial arts training for self defense? because I sure haven't.

Quote:

Now im not saying hit him only once, LOL right arm should be like a steam piston running at 10000rpm.




As I said, this happens plenty in championship matches and it still takes minutes for the opponent to go down. KOs are not as easy as you make them out to be.

Quote:

Not sure why you say “What do you think we think we are? Invincible? Give me a break.”
Perhaps my sarcasm was too thin, Sorry I confused you.

LEO don’t be so fragile, enjoy the debate, I know your still a boy, but chill out lad.




What does me being a boy have to do with anything? Sarcasm only goes so far. I want an explanation as to what the guard could have done to better defend himself. Clearly you are only interested in critiquing other peoples' suggestions and throwing in bland comments such as "just KO the guy". Why is a boy scolding you for giving an inadequate explanation of your opinions? Does maturity lead to this kind of thinking? If so I don't want to be mature.

Life ain't so simple as "just KO him". If you can just pull that off in seconds by using your "right arm ... like a steam piston running at 10000rpm", you should be a world champion in the ring.

Quote:

Sorry to burst the bubble guys, but if you get attacked with a blade, you will Sh*t yourselves, and many of you will freeze, MUST of us will get cut.




Bubble didn't exist in the first place. I'm scared to heck by blades and most importantly I want to KNOW how to deal with them. Not just "oh KO him" or "use this technique". No fighting situation is so simple that you can just say one technique will solve it. That's why we train.

In knife defense it's best to assume you're going to get cut. But where and how many times depends on your actions during the altercation.
Posted by: mark

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 11:02 AM

Ok Leo, you know best.
Posted by: Dauragon c mikado

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 11:12 AM

Strange...I thought I knew best?

Oh well, at least if something like that happens to me I can unleash my fist of the flaming monkey
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 11:34 AM

Sure as heck I don't. However, I'd like to hear some more detail than "just KO them". Surely there are more ways to protect yourself than that. I liked the suggestion of moving away from the door very much. Common sense suggestions like that are great because you can just implement it easily straight away without any training.
Posted by: Tom2199

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 11:53 AM

i would have thought the best way would be to trap the arm behind the back or some simple akido, jujitsu technique.

another thing i would be worried about would be catching and cutting the hand with the knife, that really bothers me silly i know.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 11:55 AM

I hung back for a few just to see the range of reactions. Here's my take:

SD doesn't begin w/ techniques, it begins w/ awareness. The area looked very small & difficult to defend in. A standing position to the side would probably have been better from a tactical POV. BTW, how many of you walk w/ your hands in your pocket? (if you don't get the relavence of the question, you are the guard)

Also, most security guard training is lacking & many of those going into the field aren't Secret Service-level guys.

But one thing I noticed from the git-go was the method the perp used in his assault. It was VERY remeniscent of a prison shank attack. An inmate can stab you 6-10 times within 1-2 seconds w/ a sharpened toothbrush handle & you won't know you've been stabbed immediately (you'll think you were struck). This guy has done it before.

I was also disgusted @ the length of time it took for the shop employee(s) to react. This isn't unusual; it's what you can expect on the srteet if it ever happens to you.

owari
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 02:29 PM

Good observations. I never thought about a hand in the pocket being an indicator of an attack coming.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 02:52 PM

No...the point is when you walk w/ your hands in your pockets, your ability to protect yourself is compromised (even if you trip). SD means having ALL your tools available. It's the preparation that yields success or failure & preparation isn't just training - it's awareness & the ability to anticipate.

See my new thread.

>>>>>>>>>
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/03/07 04:04 PM

Ah, I get your point now.
Posted by: wolfman

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/04/07 10:41 AM

I am also disgusted by the lenght of time it toke to get help, but not surpised. It hard to be readly for a total surpise attack, I'm sure that guard had sat there many a day with nothing to do. I'm sure at first the other people didn't believe it was happening right in front of them. I wonder what if any changes have been made in their setup. It looks to be a very small shop in the video,can they change much.
Having spent a lot of time on guard ducty in the service, some posts where the orders where shoot first then shoot again, I can tell you it was boring. The couple of times we had a little something happen didn't make up for the hours and hours of bordom. You can't keep keyed up for ever, you will let your guard down. Then it's all about how you handle it when it hits the fan.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Horrifying knife attack - 01/04/07 11:59 AM

The Guard did the best he could to control the knife hand. Again like the others have said I was shocked that help did come quicker and when it did come why not with a heavier item to swing. I'd like to know what the extent of the guards injuries.

But what can be seen is that just because you are stabbed numerous times you can still fight BACK. Not to say you won't die from the wounds later but give yourself a fighting chance Fight Back!!! And expect people to help you?? Thats what I got out of this ordeal.