Acknowledging BB's from other system

I don't teach commercially, never had, but your question has a simple answer.

Your Nth degree black belt is from an X system; that's all you are qualified to claim. When you take up Y system, you start as a white belt, because that's where you are, and you should humbly acknowledge it. And if you do not feel good about paying to start learning basics again, then stick to X system.

However, you are free to demonstrate your personal technical prowess, because that's what you are, and your brand new white belt will not change that and nobody can refuse to acknowledge that.

'Nth degree'?, sure why not -works for me. white/black -doesn't matter, I'll wear what they tell me the custom is if I ever have the interest to train somewhere else.

but 'X-system' ? no. every system has a range of what is taught - maybe the range changes or is expanded or maybe it's completely fabricated from a little here and a little there...but it still has a name. Even if someone has no rank, it could be perfectly legitimate (if true) for them to say they study 'Karate' or more specifically 'Goju Ryu' if thats what the range of study encompases and have ben trained by someone who can claim the same.

remember, Funakoshi, Mabuni, Miyagi, Nagamine, etc all were given rank after the fact of many years training. prior to them being awarded the rank and prior to their Art being under Japan's Budo art infastructure...they still had a name for what they did: 'Te'. and if they distinguished between them, it was by the instructor mehod of their largest influence: Itosu-ha, Higaonna-ha, etc.

having/not having rank doesn't determine the system or range of study...instructional influence determines that. if anything, it's the other way around. sometimes systems are artificially built around a rank structure. (example: learning 1 kata per system grade as oppossed to just being taught principles the individual student is ready for which is silently evaluated by the instructor on a daily basis as opposed to formal testing rituals every 3 months that is largly marketing and retention driven).


p.s. serious question about belt color: you know how people wear faded black-belts? faded and tatered to the point that they look like a washed out grayish color....you know why are there no faded and tatered hanshi's wearing red-belts? because then it would look like a pink belt. lol

clearly appearance is a large part of what people do.

Hi Ed,

Faded belts are an older (possibly American?) tradition. The original belts were cheaply made and faded due to sweat and 'rotting' as time passed. I understand the attachment, having gone through 2 in my time. Then the modern era came about and newer traditions such as belts that instantly frayed because of thier construction tecnique, made it easier than the older ways of tying belts around a tree for one or two months to 'break' them in. Other traditions dictate only clean new belts should be worn.

Whatever tradition is followed, they just remain belts.

To the larger issue acknowledging BB's from other systems, I always acknowledge anyone. On the other hand I'm not looking for students, nor am I discouraging students. I will accept anyone who wants to train, that means to do what we do, not change it to someone elses opinion.

I've trained many places, my obi was always respected, but that never confired that I knew their system and was always trained as the instructor dictates.

When I have a black belt drop by, first I make them watch a class. About 1/2 of the time our training does not resemble the training they're looking for so they don't come back, which is fine.

When someone wants to train I explain I respect their studies and it's their choice what they want to wear. If they feel thier abilities are current in their art, they wear their black belt, if not they adjust their rank accordingly (they no I).

I encourage them (forever) to keep up their prior training, but I also explain that is not what we're doing in class, and that has included Isshinru dan's who've joined, as each program is unique to itself.

So whatever they're wearing they start at the beginning and learn the system from the ground up. Their speed of learning depends on their ability. Their progress depends on their effort.

I do not 'rank' them until they reach a new level from where they were before. So they don't get a new collection of rank certificates.

If they choose to join our training, they're doing so because the training offers them something they can't find elsewhere. In turn I do my best to share our system.

While we have degrees in dan training (they're light concepts not hard heavy rules) the group really doesnt' care as they know what they know, etc.

As for the new dan (regardless of previous rank) becoming a qualified instructor, our basic guide line is 15 continous years trianing with us.

Switching systems and learning a new system is very different from being qualified to teach that system the way we've developed it.

The truth is, taking outside dan's into the program is a lot of work that never ends. 15 years later I'm still working at changing earlier habits, that contradict what we're working towards.

Harlan, we have a policy that no matter how high the bb rank, if they come to our shool they are busted to shodan and have to re-learn from their.

Another way of looking at it: you're a BB who winds up starting at some other style's school and the sensei says you have to start all over. Fine. What happens first time you spar the other kyus? Personally, I'd drop 'em like a hot turd. Some aknowledgement (or expulsion) would be forthcoming.

Overcomplicating things.

Go as far as acknowledging the person.
When sparring, recognize the skill level, and place his opponent as someone who is at the same level.

Harlan -

While I wouldn't try to hurt anyone at another school, I wouldn't neccessarily hold back my skill either. That's not being honest.

My understanding of sparring is limited...so I probably misunderstood Iron's context. Perhaps unfortunately, there is no 'sparring' in my learning. It's considered too dangerous.

How do you learn a self defense system without application in a "fighting" situation? I am not judging, just asking how is it possible?

Scottie

I assume you are asking harlan that.

Perhaps it's a fighting without fighting kind of thing........

I have no problem learning from others and have attended other classes and seminars without incident. And if asked, I could probably show another aspect of what was being presented. What I was saying harlan, was that if treated like a beginner in a striking style that doesn't mean I'd have to spar like a beginner.

I would be teaching something. Teaching the other sensei it isn't useful to be so arrogant. It's another aspect of being an elitist for your style.

Fifteen years ago I switchwed from TSD to the school I'm at now, my rank was third dan at the time. My Shihan told me that it would be ok to remain a BB but he had to bust me down to (shodan), understandable. Easy enough, but all the Korean kata's that were learned in the past were not any good at the new school. So of course I had to learn 15 new of kata's, 4 bo kata's, all the new self defense, jusitsu and grappling ground work. I worked very hard on my techniques just to be accepted and equal in to the shodans of the dojo. Finally after about three years I was able to get back in the teaching cycle again. To say that when you switch styles is only about fighting is some what deceptive, don't forget about all the other baggage that comes with it . Still today I'm cathing up from the "big Switch"....but I love the move And to be perfectly honest the TSD way of fighting that was beaten in my head was a great kicking background/foundation but I was put on my butt many times since I wasn't use to the Japanese way of fighting. Now with the mixture of both style under my belt it has made me rounded fighter and MA.

I am thrilled we are having this particular discussion. The school I train at has a steady flow of students from other schools and systems... what we tend to do is any student with rank of 2nd kyu (senior brown in our system) or higher from their system stays at that rank until they have learned all the curriculum up to that point. These students must have real rank certificates to verify their rank as well - our school owner has even gone as far as to call the student's previous school to discuss the student's claimed qualifications. No notes from mother stating their kid is a red belt or anything like that. haha. While some students below 2nd kyu are bummed out by this, we tend to allow them to "double-promote" up to their previous rank as long as they can handle the onslaught of material. If it takes them a year or 2 to get back to 2nd kyu, so be it. They usually take this well.

As for black belts, we always respect BBs from other systems and allow them to hold the "temporary/probabtionary" BB rank until they learn all the colored belt material, then the black belt material. They typically don't come in at 2nd Dan and stay 2nd Dan. If they came in a 3rd Dan for example and are true 3rd Dans, they shouldn't have much trouble getting up to speed. We view Black Belts much like 4-year college degrees at our school. You can't take a student's BA away from them, so why take the 4 years of training it takes to earn a black belt away just b/c they "transferred" schools?

Lstly, we have had one occasion where he had a master level black belt join our school. At this rank (5th dan and above), we allow them to keep their rank while they learn our curriculum. Our transfer in has a 6th dan in Shinsukair jiu-jitsu, 2nd dan in aikido and a 3rd dan in kenpo. Can't imagine giving him the "here's your probationary black belt - you have to earn your rank here," speech. He's been great, and is currently learning our stuff while also teaching his stuff - now we are working his practical self-defense material in our school's promotion curriculum. It's been a great fit for both him and our school.

'sparring' has alot of definitions. point spar and full-contact are just as different from each other as 2-person drills having progressive resistance.

someone could be from a system that trained him/her to be a good point/contact-spar...but when they join another place, they find the 2-person progressive resistance drills as foreign to them as a beginner.

why is that? I think because the assumed/accepted ranges are so dissimilar. the strategies and skillsets are optimized for whatever ranges are trained over the years.

Another take on 'recognizing' other professionals: I've met several physicians who obtained their educations/licenses abroad...but that could not practice medicine in the USA due to the inability to pass the exams to practice here. So, they worked in other health care professions where the licensing/certification was easier to obtain.

They still have their degrees, and education...but not recognized in a new place. Seems right...due to the importance of the job. I'm not saying a BB is on par with a physician...but respect/trust has to be earned wherever you go.