POLL - Belt rankings

Posted by: MattJ

POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 12:27 PM

Are they useful? Are they more trouble than they are worth? Do you think they should still be used?

Vote and be heard.
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 12:45 PM

Chojun Miyagi never awarded a belt in Goju. Good enough for me.
Posted by: stormbringer

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 01:27 PM

I like them because it helps to pair people on the same skill level during class and is a good indicator of their rough skill level. to be continued
Posted by: iaibear

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 01:38 PM

Belt rankings also sustain the challenge to the student, especially the newer or younger ones, to practice well and hard as a barometer of their increasing skills.

Just be careful belt rankings are not simply issued to increase the teacher's income.
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 01:52 PM

I can see, that as usual, I'm in the minority.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 03:11 PM

Belt ranking & the lack thereof can be useful.

The problem is not with the belt, but with the comparisions. It is not fair & not really possible to compare from one to another. That is where the inherent problem comes from. Belts mean different things to different people. Belts have different measures of worth across the spectrum of what we do. That is what feeds the controversy. It is not the belts in & of themselves, it is the attempt to measure/define/compare/evaluate across that is the problem. It is simply just impossible.
Posted by: CVV

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 03:11 PM

Quote:

Chojun Miyagi never awarded a belt in Goju. Good enough for me.




But he would ware a black belt. As would Miyazato in pictures with him.

He awared a licence to teach goju-ryu to 3 people. (Jinan Shinzato, Seko Higa, Jinsei Kamiya).
He appointed Jitsuei Yogi end Yamaguchi as shihan dai of the karate club at the Ritsumeikan university.

But rank only holds value for those who recognize it.
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 03:18 PM

I've been in a room with a 7th Dan, and 6th Dan, and few students. Everybody wore street clothes, everybody sweated...and nobody needed a belt to know who was who.

Perhaps belts also help systems that have grown too large to appreciate the individuals?
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 05:36 PM

I'm against belts on principle that they're an artificial projection of credit onto someone who may or may not have the skill and knowledge to back it up. If belts were standardised and ranking systems were compared amongst federations and martial arts, I would support them. However, this is unlikely to happen.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/11/06 08:46 PM

I guess the poll results speak for themselves, at least at this point! (80% in favor of)

I am in the minority.
Posted by: Mark Hill

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 04:06 AM

Quote:

Are they useful? Are they more trouble than they are worth? Do you think they should still be used?

Vote and be heard.




Yes. Yes. Yes.
Posted by: Reiki

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 04:29 AM

In our system the syllabus for each rank is quite detailed.

No-one grades for the next rank until the instructors think they are ready and have completed the requirements of the syllabus to a sufficient standard. The decision on grading is held by the head instructor who nominates who will grade and who will not based on their proficiency.

I think the system works well for our club.

Note it is a non-commercial type of club and is not a business like many of the ones overseas. We instructors do not get paid for any of our work, it is all done on a voluntary basis.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 06:46 AM

I dislike belt ranks, certificates and all of the like, for the most part.

Truthfully, one's own performance should be placed above belt chasing. and the two definitely don't always go hand in hand together. Otherwise if they did, Fred Ettish (I'm sure you'll remember him, some of you anyway) wouldn't have been a 6t degree black belt without the most basic of skill (he couldn't even deal with a JAB folks).

Why does everyone chase for rank? What are you going to do with that belt, walk around with it? Wear it to the mall? I think belt ranks are a little goofy actually.

The used to help in competition but that isn't even true anymore because everyone SANDBAGS. So, what's the point if, the basics are truthfully the only things that really matter?

-John
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:04 AM

Belts-grades are the westernisation of Martial Arts, Although Krav Maga has a belt system. Without them we are still the same, we know who has graded more than who etc.

I actually believe that we don't need as many colours than say 4/5 ie blue/yellow/green/brown/black. Grades and belts assist with keeping students too, especially the kids as the can strive through each grade. Its an achievement. Although you don't wear it to bed etc, it allows you to know you have reach a certain point in your MA career and you have so far to go until the next step an so forth. Although I have met many who cant't tie their belts properly even some of the Cadet Blackbelts

Long gone are the days when you were a white belt until one day your sensei would give you a brown belt and say well done, no grading etc to do as each day was treated as if you were grading then you had to wait until you were then given your black belt etc.

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:19 AM

Belts are great, especially the black ones. Whenever I attend TKD classes I feel like an army general walking into a room full of privates. All the bowing you get is simply exhilarating. It compells me to set a good example and to perform at my very best in everything I do and the attention you get when explaining things; and even if I don't do anything, I need to look good and have to take even my warming up seriously. It's a heavy responsibility. There is nothing so devastating as not being a respected black belt. Imagine privates refusing to salute a general, or a president of a country having eggs thrown at him or her.

No, nothing wrong with belt rankings per se; it's the wearer that may make it look bad.

I can understand those in the 'minority' being against belt rankings; on an individual person-to-person basis, I do agree that designated rankings of any kind do not serve any substantive purpose; either you cut it or you don't.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:24 AM

Quote:

Belts are great, especially the black ones. Whenever I attend TKD classes I feel like an army general walking into a room full of privates.





That's part of the problem in my opinion.

And they say that MMA guys have huge egos, lol


-John
Posted by: Mark Hill

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:29 AM

I had people bowing to me before they talked to me at karate last time, like what I have to do at Hapkido. All I can say is it felt bloody surreal.

John, Matt J could you comment (further) on my "Paul Vockler" anti-rank inflation approach to belts here or in the other post?

Reiki - we have a similar system in Hapkido. It is "commercial" but very good and only about $40 per month.

Are belts really a westernisation? Chuan'fa and Kung Fu didn't have them until westerners started doing judo and karate?
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:33 AM

I think there should be a ranking system but one that is a far cry less than what it is in most styles today. I really only see a need for a few. White to indicate beginner, green or blue to indicate intermediate, then black to show advanced. That is all you would need. It helps to show advancement and to motivate but doesn't get into to much of the other crap that goes along with ranking.

Train hard, have your progress acknowledged and rewarded, move on to the next level.

Scottie
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:51 AM

I don't see it as an ego thing, though quoting only a quarter of my post may make it seem like so.

I see it as being respected and acknowledged for your earned achievements, assuming of course that the BB is awarded on merit alone.
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 07:56 AM

Hey, BF, do you think that the 3 out of 4 who seem to support belt rankings...might actually be personally invested in the practice?

P*r*o*t*e*c*t*i*n*g their E*g*o*s?

(or income)
Posted by: Mark Hill

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:07 AM

Quote:

Hey, BF, do you think that the 3 out of 4 who seem to support belt rankings...might actually be personally invested in the practice?

P*r*o*t*e*c*t*i*n*g their E*g*o*s?

(or income)




You got me. I own 43% of century martial arts supplies. We are trying to get Shihans to adopt coloured gis matching belts, my accountant "Phil" tells me that our sales revenue can grow about 700%!
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:23 AM

If one day, you went to your school, and informed your students that you had rethought your philosophy...and would now offer teaching for free...but with no belts...how many would leave? How many green, blue, brown and black belts do you think would lay aside their belts, and consider themselves equal to the lowest kyu, in order to train personally...with you? How many would leave...in order to 'keep' their 'rank'?

If we go by the poll...maybe 1 out of 4 would stay with a good teacher.
Posted by: Galen

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:25 AM

I really don't understand why the belt ranking system in the martial arts takes such a beating, when it is clear that the ranking system itself is not to blame.

It is not possible to have any kind of system or organization without some form of hierarchy, whether that hierarchy is explicit, such as with the belt ranking system, or implied, by reputation or skill level alone.

If it is excepted that some kind of ranking system, as described above, is inherent in the organization, then does it really matter what that ranking system is? It seems clear from the posts on this thread that the problem is not with the ranking system itself, but more with the individuals and egos that function within that system. That, and the fact that there is no broad-based standardization for such rank.

The way I look at it, it is the instructor's job to ensure that, as far as is possible, the ranks are earned according to the criteria specific to each school, and that the egos attached to each belt are kept in check.

Are we all agreed that if ego is kept in check and worthiness of rank is insured, that the belt ranking system would have no more drawbacks than any other ranking system, remembering that some form of ranking (be it explicit or implied) is simply part and parcel of any organization?

Galen
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:27 AM

So...are you advocating humility as a prerequisite for ranking?

Quote:

Are we all agreed that if ego is kept in check and worthiness of rank is insured, that the belt ranking system would have no more drawbacks than any other ranking system, remembering that some form of ranking (be it explicit or implied) is simply part and parcel of any organization?

Galen


Posted by: Galen

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:40 AM

Quote:

So...are you advocating humility as a prerequisite for ranking?




Absolutely!

The two things that bother me the most, at least in the school through which I received my ranking, was that inflated ego was allowed to fester in many of the high-ranking students, and that skill was not valued enough.

The three things I look for most when determining readiness for rank (especially among adults, and more so at the higher rank) are:

- technical ability
- humility
- integrity

Without all of these ingredients, in equal and effective measure, rank will not be granted.

Galen
Posted by: stormbringer

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:46 AM

Quote:

If we go by the poll...maybe 1 out of 4 would stay with a good teacher.


I would likely be an exception. I voted yes because I feel the benifits outweigh the negatives. When I first started TKD, we never wore belts to class, we trained as equals, from the from the Black Belts down to the lowly whites. We still received the belt certifications when advancing, but you never saw them in class. These lessons were free too and very good quality. It took roughly a year of training to reach the next belt.
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 08:49 AM

How do you measure humility? Or for that matter, any intangible...such as loyalty, integrity?

I say...take the money and the belts out of the equation...and you will see more clearly these aspects. Not saying that they aren't there...it is evident when students show up rain or shine, and work hard in a less than fancy dojo. But easier to see without all the slogans, tournements, fancy dress, belts...and money.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 10:20 AM

I abstain from the vote. If used properly there is no problem with a belt ranking system.

The question is "Should belt rankings be used?"

It is up to the individual training or teaching what they prefer to do.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 10:21 AM

<< What are you going to do with that belt, walk around with it? Wear it to the mall? >>

An Iaido belt is built different from a standard obi. It is wider (9 cm), more flexible and much longer (@ 12 feet long). The katana, real or practice, is carried thrust though/under this belt just over the left hip, where it rides horizontal and secure. A regular obi can be used but only if tied tight enough to strangle your middle.

When I go to practice Iaido at our local gym I wear the only Iaido belt I have ever owned. It happens to black, and was earned in Guelph in the late '90's. So, yes, I wear it in public, from the dressing rooms, the whole length of the facility, to the aerobics room with its high ceiling and hardwood floor. BTW, the sheathed blade is hand carried on the left side.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 10:47 AM

Yes. In fact the back of the ITF DoBok has a logo called the TKD Tree. The words Taekwon-Do are written along the shoulders in a drooping fashion. This is to symbolize humility, ofetn over looked, espeically at the higher levels. I think that is one reason why we have less than ideal masters.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:20 AM

Quote by JoelM -

Quote:

The question is "Should belt rankings be used?"




Isn't that pretty much what I asked?

Quote:

Do you think they should still be used?


Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:20 AM

I voted yes. If done right, as mentioned, the benefits of a belt system outweigh the negatives. As a motivational factor, as an indication of the amount of training a person has, a general level of skill, and what patterns or other material that person should be focusing on.

I will be the first to admit that when I started TKD, earning my first belt was exhilarating. It gave me momentum, solidified my belief that TKD was something that I could do, and maybe someday even do well. Frankly, I had such a low self esteem that I never even thought I would make it to my first testing, much less to where I am now, less than two months from my black belt testing. Every belt, every stripe, added a tiny bit to building my confidence and self esteem.

I can even understand the comment made by butterflyPalm. The higher ranked you are, the more the lower ranked students look to you for guidance, technique, and behavior. I've seen many students where earning a rank has made a big improvement because of this, especially at red or black belt ranks. Where suddenly the student says "Hey look at me, I'm a black belt" and then realizes "Yikes, I'm a black belt, and they're all looking at me"

Of course, we don't let ego get in the way. If someone's head gets too big, or they try to pull rank, they will very quickly loose that rank.

Laura
Posted by: MattJ

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:26 AM

Fair enough. So maybe the question should be, should belt ranks effectively end at a certain point - say black belt (ie; no more dan ranks, just black belt)?
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:27 AM

It really comes down...to the student. I don't care to be defined by anything...not a social security number, not a gender or nationality, not a label...and certainly not by the clothes I wear (gi's and belts included).

This past summer, some little talk of belts flew by me in anticipation of visit by one of my teacher's teachers. I started to wonder...'how do I measure up against others?'

In the end, I decided that I'd been infected by the 'belt chasing' virus...that it totally undermined my training...and I put it aside to go my own way.

Good for some, not so good for others.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:41 AM

Quote:

Quote by JoelM -

Quote:

The question is "Should belt rankings be used?"




Isn't that pretty much what I asked?




Yes, Matt, it is. My point that I don't care if they're used. I'd train somewhere regardless of if they used belts or not.




Frankly, I just want somewhere to train.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:49 AM

Quote:

how do I measure up against others




I feel this is a very important question and depending on the person, can either be egotistical or motivational.

I am always comparing myself to my fellow classmates and instructors. I know, for the most part, what I am capable of doing, but I use the examples set by the better students in class and my instructor to see where I'm going, what I need to work on, and what it looks like when done better, and the examples set by the less proficient students to see how far I've come.

Even without belt rank, I would still know where I stood on any given technique compared to the other students in class.

How I would stand against someone from another school, I have no idea, and never would unless I visited that school. Although, I can get some sense based on what I see at tournaments.

Laura
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:54 AM

I forget what teacher said it (somebody famous). When asked if a dojo should have mirrors, a sensei replied 'I should be the only mirror for a student.'

'Measuring' one's self in relation to others is a trap...even if it motivates one to perform better. Instead...I consider the proper relationship to be one of a student and teacher as mirrors.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 11:57 AM

I guess I am in the minority here too. If you are after education, then it matters little what anyone wears. If you are after acknowledgement for achievements of that education, then belts matter.

In my opinion, it is ego...learn to know, or learn to show.

-B
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:33 PM

But even if it is all about learning, even in schools they give degrees out to verify knowledge levels attained (high school diploma, college undergraduate, masters, phd), why should another instituion of learning be any different? It simply designates that you are ready for a higher degree of learning.

Scottie
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:43 PM

Can you remember every teacher you had in school or college? Can you remember every important paper? Is the certificate the culmination, for you, of the entire experience?

Now can you recall the names of every important sensei in your life...or important class/profound lessons? Is a belt, say a black belt, the culmination of the time spent learning/the experience?

In one...you walk away with a piece of paper...and put those years behind you. You are considered a 'graduate'. With another...the belt is just the beginning...all over again.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:46 PM

Scottie,

I think that's a bit different in this regard. I go to a job and say I have a BS or BA in this field or whatever. The company I am applying to might check with the school I graduated from and confirm my degree. No problem. I don't wear my diploma around my pants and I the knowledge I have earned is with me...not in the paper they gave me.

On the other hand, what we are talking about with some belts is similar to a high school History class where someone gets and A+ on a paper...and then proceeds to show it to everyone. Hey, if you liked the subject and wanted to do well on the paper great...the reward was in the doing and in the knowledge that you did well.

IMO, the reward, however, should not be showing the grade to others so that you illicit envy, irritation, anger, or seek self-promotion (parents are fine though-- ).

If you show it in this light, it stops being a reward in and of itself and is now something that is paraded past the pursuit of personal knowledge and lends itself ultimately to the ego.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:49 PM

I dont think you can use that analogy here. Far more classes through your life in general education and schools than you have in MA's. Plus, yes, I can remember quite a few good instructors I had who truly made me work and I was happy for the experience. And my school days were more than just a piece of paper. They are some of the most cherished memories of my childhood. In both experiences I came away enriched and learning much more than when I entered.

Scottie
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:51 PM

I think you made the analogy. I might have clumsily tried to take it further. But then...I don't think the analogy works at all.

Quote:

I dont think you can use that analogy here.


Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:55 PM

So the problem is in the way the person who earned it displays it? I understand where you are coming from and in a big way I can agree that when it is something paraded about in, then yes, what sense do belts make. But if it is truly just an honest recognition of how you are doing, then the feedback is good and necessary.

School again, that A+ the person got, if they had not been graded at all, what incentive would they have to do better? Would they even know if they were failing? What feedabck would they have to know whether they had become proficient at that subject or not without a grade? When would you know that your studies were complete as far as having taken it all in?

Just looking for clarification.

Scottie
Posted by: butterfly

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:55 PM

Ah, but Scottie, I think Harlan has a point and your post even touches on it. That it isn't in the grades you got, but in the endeavors your pursued and in the knowledge you gained...regardless of the grades.

For your son, have you ever told him to just try his best regardless of how well he scored on some test or did in some game? That's the point that I think Harlan and I am making.

That it is a personal pursuit of education that should be paramount, not the looking at how many stairs you have moved up on a particular staircase while at the same time looking over to your left or right and seeing others further up and some below you on their spiraling ways.

If you get rid of the enticements to education then it is only the education and your willingness to accomodate it that matters and so you don't need the belts.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:58 PM

Quote:

I think you made the analogy. I might have clumsily tried to take it further. But then...I don't think the analogy works at all.

Quote:

I dont think you can use that analogy here.







I meant the classes, due to volume and number do not represent the same experience. Grade Vs grade seems more like apples and apples to me. Then again, I could be under the misconception, lol.

Scottie
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 12:59 PM

I used to like writing poetry. I took a high school creative writing course, and my teacher told me my poetry 'made no sense'...and that I should focus on other forms.

Then we had a visiting poet teach the course for half the year. I took one of my poems that had been eviscerated, and submitted it to the poet without her comments. He loved it.

I realized that looking for approval and recognition from teachers was a flawed process...and that an 'A' was meaningless. It made me think for myself. It made me question: What am I learning? What is the value to me? And do I care about the approval of the masses...or should I be very selective in whose opinion I value?
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 01:01 PM

Quote:

Ah, but Scottie, I think Harlan has a point and your post even touches on it. That it isn't in the grades you got, but in the endeavors your pursued and in the knowledge you gained...regardless of the grades.

For your son, have you ever told him to just try his best regardless of how well he scored on some test or did in some game? That's the point that I think Harlan and I am making.

That it is a personal pursuit of education that should be paramount, not the looking at how many stairs you have moved up on a particular staircase while at the same time looking over to your left or right and seeing others further up and some below you on their spiraling ways.

If you get rid of the enticements to education then it is only the education and your willingness to accomodate it that matters and so you don't need the belts.




Nuff said, I surrender. And yes, I tell my son that all the time so the point goes very deep.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 01:03 PM

Quote:

I realized that looking for approval and recognition from teachers was a flawed process...and that an 'A' was meaningless.




But your instructor is your teacher too. Now you just confused me again.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 02:09 PM

If you are being instructed by someone, you will have some form of feedback to tell you how you are doing.

If you do a side kick and your instructor says "good". Does he mean "That was a good side kick" or "That was a good side kick for the amount of time you've been training".

If your instructor says you are doing something wrong, do you take his suggestions and try to fix it? or do you just say to yourself, "he doesn't know what he's talking about. I do a good kick and I'm going to keep doing it my way"?

Testings and the feedback I get from them help me to have a better understanding of what I need to work on. Rank takes a whole pile of my instructors "good jobs" and bundles them into one package. It helps me to see that I am making progress even though I may not be able to see it myself.

I must not be as secure or as self confident as some of you, because I still need to hear I'm doing a good job from my instructor every once in a while. Granted, I'm happy when he stops yelling at me for doing something wrong and moves on to yelling at me for doing something else wrong.

If I didn't value the opinion of my instructor, however he chooses to express it, belts or no belts, then I wouldn't be there.

Laura
Posted by: butterfly

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 02:13 PM

So...take away all the belts. Keep the pats on the back and the aknowledgments for doing something well (that is part of good instruction)...what's the difference in the belt except to state the obvious, that you are at the level you are at?
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 02:41 PM

It is obvious that the belt system does motivate students. I wish it meant something to me...because it's harder to do something when the real rewards are so intangible. I was in a big rush at one point, to learn as much and do as much as possible...and belts are a visible way to measure that. Then my teacher said, 'What's the rush...you've got a lifetime.' Took the steam right out of me. When one's progress has no end, belts are too static to sustain one's motivation.

Quote:

Testings and the feedback I get from them help me to have a better understanding of what I need to work on. Rank takes a whole pile of my instructors "good jobs" and bundles them into one package. It helps me to see that I am making progress even though I may not be able to see it myself.


Posted by: stormbringer

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 02:44 PM

Now adays when I'm working on my form or my combinations(steps), I get either negative feedback or no feedback most of the time; sometimes I get positive, but it's usually reserved for the lower belts. If I get no feedback, I know I'm at an acceptable or better performance level; If it's negative, I'm also told what I need to work on. Average-wise, I'm normally an 8.5-9.0 out of 10. He'll pass people on a belt grading with acceptable, but by the time they hit the Black Belt test, they'll need to be doing much better. Of course, where I'm at, the belt indicates what you should know, not what you do or don't, and that by Black, you should know it all.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 03:02 PM

Belts are fine in a school/organization as they are understood what they represent. Outside of that school/organization they mean nothing as long as that is remembered. I think education to the general masses is the most important thing. A black belt, while it is a good goal, is different in each system and does not mean the people are killers or could defend themselves out of a wet paper bag. Educate people so they understand this and then we could all go in peace.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 03:08 PM

Does it really matter to you what value I place on my belt?

I will be testing for my black belt in less than two months.
What value should I place on it. Which is more important?

1) the hundreds of hours I've put into my training

2) The skills that I've learned and can demonstrate.

3) getting to learn three new patterns.

4) As a motivational tool. The accomplishment of a goal.

5) because the actual belt was a gift from my cousin.

6) it holds my dobok closed.

If you don't see any value in a belt, then that is your opinion. I started the MA in a system that uses belts. I understand their purpose and value in my school. If my instructor were to suddenly say we were no longer using belts, I would still value each and every belt I had been presented with, because they have meaning to me.

Frankly, if he decided to do so tomorrow, I would be very upset having lost the ability to accomplish a goal I set out to earn a long time ago.

Laura
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 03:16 PM

And this is why so many black belts....quit. Because the goal, the learning, the testing and the rank is all mixed in together...and once that goal is attained...what comes after?

Quote:

Frankly, if he decided to do so tomorrow, I would be very upset having lost the ability to accomplish a goal I set out to earn a long time ago.


Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 03:19 PM

Quote:

What's the rush...you've got a lifetime.




I would have said the opposite. Hurry up...you've only got a lifetime

Thats one of the big reasons that rank is often just measured by the length of time you've been actively training. Someone with 25 years of experience should have more knowledge than someone with 15.

Laura
Posted by: butterfly

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 03:25 PM

Quote:

Thats one of the big reasons that rank is often just measured by the length of time you've been actively training. Someone with 25 years of experience should have more knowledge than someone with 15.






And that is also one of the reasons you don't need belts.
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 03:26 PM

As Dereck said...it's specific to one's system.

Quote:

Thats one of the big reasons that rank is often just measured by the length of time you've been actively training. Someone with 25 years of experience should have more knowledge than someone with 15.

Laura


Posted by: ITFunity

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/12/06 04:42 PM

Quote:

Fair enough. So maybe the question should be, should belt ranks effectively end at a certain point - say black belt (ie; no more dan ranks, just black belt)?




Matt:

Sir I voted no, as I think that is more geared to the answer you seek. However, belt ranks do effectivley end at CERTAIN POINT. In the ITF it ends at IX Dan BB.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/13/06 04:14 AM

With respects, I voted 'No' as blackbelt shodan is just the beginning and it keeps our Dan grades motivated and in tune with their techniques and new Kata. I know of a Tang Soo Do dojang where Blackbelt take a 'mini grading' every 6 months to make sure they keep on top of their Kata etc. for some of the 1st Dans thay could revert back to Red belt if they don't match the standard.

I know that some of the higher Dan grades with the 20 gold bands or those with the Red and Gold belts etc are a bit OTT, I don't think Dan Bars are required as with a decent belt the colour fads and returns to white with age, this is how to tell the longer serving Dan grades not a nice shiny belt with a new extra gold band on the end

Apppologies for offending any one, but my opinion is that we as Dan grades need to be humble and create a good example to our kyu grades not create a 'he's got more bands than me' ethos this is where the belt chasers come from, black should be the last belt not 'red and white' or 'blue and white' or 'red and black' etc

my respects

Posted by: clmibb

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 12/13/06 10:24 AM

I voted in favor of belts because it does a few things (as long as they are used in the proper manor and not to line the instructor's pocket). For the student, it keeps them motivated and they have something to look forward to whether it be the next belt or a stripe on their belt. For the instructor, it helps keep track of what different students have learned. Example, we have about 30 kids in our beginner class and about 8 instructors. We break up into groups so everyone who started at the same time pretty much moves at the same pace. If you need extra help, we appoint a first degree or a high ranking red belt for 1 on 1 time. It may only be for 15 minutes or it may be for the rest of the class, it all depends on the student and the instructor. We had a large group of white belts start at the same time. A few struggled more than others. My instructor took those who needed a smaller group and has them moving slower than the other group. We've put different colored stripes on their belts to show where they are. He broke down the requirements for their first test into 5 little "mini tests" he doesn't charge for them until they are going for the last stripe. It helps build up their foundation which I think we can all agree is the most important part. It helps keep the kids motivated and they don't get frustrated with learning something new and complicated. I don't think that our school could be run with out ranks personally.

Casey
Posted by: ddoa01

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/28/07 04:15 AM

Throw away the belts and throw away the uniforms. THey dont count in the real world. Why you ask just ask..

Mike- ex: 1st dan taekwondo korean WTF. 12 years of TKD training
Posted by: Blackrainbow

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/28/07 09:48 AM

My two cents. Just to answer Matt's question. I would do away with the whole system. The belt rank system was the biggest mistake our martial arts forefathers made. It is the very reason we have all of the hate and discontent in an art that is really about attaining a peacful state of mind. That said, yes I use them. Why? Because people have come to expect promotions and if I didn't I would have no students. I try my best (note TRY) to teach that they are only a symbol, like a grade school diploma and as such do not tell the whole story about a person's ability. I wish we could just do away with the whole mess. Ancient warriors wore a belt to hold up their pants or a sword. No one needed one to judge someones skills or ability.
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/28/07 10:08 AM

I think I know what ButterflyPalm was saying, and agree with him completely. It IS a responsibility to live up to the belt, and a real martial artist has to keep up his skill level to match. Say you go to a school where most everyone has never seen you before. The obi gets you respect (maybe too much!) and there's nothing wrong with that, but unless you prove you deserved it, that can quickly turn around. How many of us have seen those red-and-white obi "generals" who are horribly out of shape and shun any significant effort or demonstration?
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/28/07 02:33 PM

Hello Matt:

Entirely 100% useful for the teacher, for the students likely debatable. Rank is a relative standard within a group, Some folks are "overqualified", others underqualified, but hopefully grow and fulfill the rank with effort.

<<Are they more trouble

Only where there is anger or tears because of them! Being subjective by nature, many have a bad perception what the "standard" means and how they/their child deserves greater ranking...



I have no idea what Matt's expectation is... no idea what Maryjane has done, or seems capable of to deserve promotion or its lack. Matt having taught her, I (whomever) will either see the basic standard met, or believe nothing more to be gained keeping me artifically at one place... still hone me, sharpen me, without making a barrier of it... merely keep me in the new rank a tad longer until I do grow into it

Rank-belts keep em...
Jeff
Posted by: DaDoN_1

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/28/07 06:53 PM

I voted yes, they really are important IMO because they are a representation of ones blood, sweat and tears. The hard work that went into obtaining that rank and keeps you motivated to work towards another rank. Certain things are taught to certain ranks it makes it loads easier for the instructor to decipher who needs to be taught what.
I think our dojo(well the one I used to belong to) has maybe "too much respect" for our belt?? We don't even drink water with it on, far less eat or anything like that. To us it's supposed to be a disrespect to the spirit within the obi
bah...too much to get into, even when i do move to the US and i do find another school, i think i'll keep that old habit with me
Posted by: Saisho

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/28/07 07:04 PM

I am sure I have said this before. My thought is that the belt serves only for incentive and a means of knowing who is who for beginners.

My teacher has done away with all of the stripes and such for blackbelts. He feels that there is no need to distinguish between 1st through 10th-Dan. By that point, you should know who is who and all lower ranks should respect any blackbelt regardless of what level. With the exception of MANY years worth of wear, my blackbelt looks the same as my teacher's.
Posted by: DaDoN_1

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/29/07 10:19 AM

All blackbelts are given respect no matter what level, just the repect is higher as the dan count increases, I'm sure you don't expect the same repect from the under-ranks that they give your master/sensei
I'm looking at it this way, why should your due respect be the same as some who's been in the art longer than you have been even if he/she is at the same rank, seniority is still there.....isn't it?
Posted by: harlan

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/29/07 10:30 AM

I don't know if I respect a 6th dan more than a 3rd dan. I can say...I'm more wary of individuals with higher rank. Great respect from me is earned. I'don't 'give a dang' about rank, or belts. As anyone in the military knows...rank doesn't always indicate ability.
Posted by: oldman

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/29/07 10:47 AM

Folks,
I am currently teaching 7 people. 6 of them began in october. One of our styles weird quirks one is that you begin with no belt at all. It's just you in your big floppy gi or sweatsuit. My folks tested this weekend and did very well. They will be getting White belts tonight. It is funny, It almost feels like Christmas eve. I am excited to present them and they seem excited to recieve them. I feel that the belts are a marker or a milestone of what we have done together. On a fun note, I going to be giving my white belt to my son.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/29/07 11:08 AM

Congrat's on your son and all other students earning their first rank!

Maybe this time your son won't cringe when you "give him the belt".
Posted by: Saisho

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/29/07 09:26 PM

What I was getting at is, when all of the blackbelts are together, we know who is who and who we are there to train under. For beginners, it is merely a matter of them showing respect to any blackbelt. They will eventually learn who deserves more respect.
Posted by: Jeff_G

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/29/07 09:49 PM

Quote:

White to indicate beginner, green or blue to indicate intermediate, then black to show advanced.
Scottie




Then you get someone who adds stripes to everything. White withone, two, three. Blue with nice colored stripes. Maybe some nice red and white ones. Do you think people will give up those increments?
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/30/07 08:56 AM

Hello Oldman:

<<My folks tested this weekend and did very well.

Tremendous congradulations...!

<<I feel that the belts are a marker or milestone of what we have done together.

And let us hope there are many more beautiful ones to come.

<<On a fun note, giving my white belt to my son.

Yikes, hopefully an adult/teen yes (imagining something from a spoofed mummy movie otherwise )???

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: POLL - Belt rankings - 01/30/07 09:09 AM

Hello DaDoN_1:

I've waited YEARS to find someone with your specific background of "belt reverence" (Jeff excited like a little kid)

What was the "ritual" when your belt came loose?

What happened when the "belt" ever touched the floor?

What happened if you required hydration?
Not eating with it on ok, but I won't sit down to dinner in my uniform on either. Pure pragmatism, avoidable mess!

What happens I don't know if as a medical emergency you require a soda? All kinds of what if scenerios, but dying to hear how the first two especially got handled...

Jeff