save my knuckles

Posted by: student_of_life

save my knuckles - 12/10/06 07:14 PM

hey guys,

im home from school for christmas, time to spend some quality time with the family, girlfriend, and the long lost heavy bag!

i've been off the heavy bag now for about 3 months, and thank god my prior conditioning has held up!, i just finished 45 min or so on the bag bare knuckle and im fine, no rips or anything, bt the usual soreness.

after a bout on the bag i usually soak my hands in warm water for a little while, just a personal preference, i find it helps a little. but i was woundering what alternatives there are to not using a dit da jow (sp?) ive never used it, and maybe never will. so anything that yuo fellows might use for an after treatment would help.

just to make it clear, i don't have any current damage, im 20 years so my joints are still and fresh for another few years, and im just looking for something to take the shakes out of my hands after a good bag work.

thanks

yours in life
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: save my knuckles - 12/10/06 07:37 PM

Get some hand wraps if you don't like using gloves, I highly recommend not going barefisted on a heavy bag. There's no point in tearing up your knuckles like that. Wraps mimic barefisted training well enough to be useful for that kind of training (they do give your hands a bit more structure too). You can't condition your skin so why take the risk of damaging it for no reason?

I personally wear bag gloves and have a rule that no gloves = no bagwork.

I'd say if you've cut up your hands (I know you haven't now but if you do end up doing that) make sure you apply basic first aid, wash them off and apply antiseptic and bandage them if necessary. Hands are very important to martial artists, I'm surprised that so many people neglect their care.
Posted by: kyokushinkai

Re: save my knuckles - 12/10/06 08:53 PM

I really suggest the use of gloves + wraps. Or atleast wraps. The last time I hit the bag without gloves/wraps was because I was extremely frustrated for personal reasons, and needed to vent.

In the end there My knuckles were gushing, there was blood all over the place and I ended up cracking the bones on the outer edge of my hand ( the one that is nearest to the striking surface of a knife hand ).

It didn't hurt that day, but after my frustration subsided I tried to hit the bag ( not knowing about the fractures ) anyway I nearly through up after a right cross and had to go to the hospital. I couldn't hit the bag for around 2 months, and got some funny looks at school because of the scabs on my hands.

anyway sorry about the rabble, even though it may not be a bad as the above you could end up breaking a small bone in your hand because you didn't feel like putting on wraps. That could put you off the bad for awhile.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: save my knuckles - 12/10/06 09:13 PM

I generally do not use bag gloves or wraps when doing bag work. I will use them if I get cuts or bruises on my knuckles though. I don't use anything after a work out.

If you are going for 45 minutes on the bag, probably not a bad idea to use gloves. I typically do not do more than 10-20 minutes of bag work at a time.
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: save my knuckles - 12/10/06 10:49 PM

thanks guys,

to tell the trth, part of the reason i go bare handed on a bag is cause i can tell from the bruseing on the knuckles weather or not im hitting right. another reason is cause i don't know how to wrap my hands correctly, i have a pair of wraps and used them a few times, but cause i didn't wrap right they started to drift and loosen, so i ditched them.

i know alot of people would advise the use of wraps and such, but does anyone have anything to say about the conditioning value of bare handed bad work?? i know it dosen't stack up to a mak, but will it do the job while im makeing a new one??

by the way, do anyone elses hands shake after a hard bag work out?? i might need to see a doctor...

yours in life
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 02:08 AM

I Have not used wraps or gloves for sometime now,however if you want to prevent injury you might try retractingl/snapping your punches.
Posted by: crablord

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 05:33 AM

did my comment get deleted or something?? anyway why the hell would you snap punch a bag? bags are for laying into
Posted by: Eveal

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 05:50 AM

I started out not useing bag gloves and found out quick it was a bad idea. If you punch a MT bag or a true boxers bag, then you will see why you need gloves. They are stiff as hell. I rolled my wrist and busted my knuckles too many times at the begining of my bag training. Gloves/wraps let me hit as hard as I can as much as I want with a lowered risk of injury.

I look back when I started in MA at 12 years old that I should have wrapped every major joints I have cause at 25 now the wear and tear is starting to show. Even though you don't feel any damage right now the internal wear and tear is still there and will hit you like a truck. So please take the advice and save your wrist and knuckles and wear wraps.

Brandon
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 09:12 AM

thanks for teh advice, i do appreciate all your expirence and the answes you all gave,

but...

my frame of mind is, i won't have wraps or gloves in a real atreet fight or self defence situation, so wouldn't it be a good thing to train with them off so that i can deleiver power shots without bending my wrist or breaking my hand?

don't get me wrong, ive bent my wrist a few times too, i blamed it on my technique, i mean when i first started out, in my session i might throw hundreds of punches and maybe 1 or 2 wrist bending happening. now, well last night nothing, i was fine. so.....maybe im doing something right? or have my hands just toughned up enough for this spefic level of contact, and will they give out on me in later years due to heavy bag work??

and for the snaping/pulling your punches thing on a heavy bag, why not just shadow box/kata?

yours in life
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 09:32 AM

For speed training, Crablord. Shadow boxing is fine for this too, however you cant generate as much speed because if you do you run a serious risk of joint damage since theres nothing but air.

As for conditioning the knuckles, it can be done. However its a highly painful experience and not recommended if you ever intend to work with your hands and assuming you dont want arthritis by thirty. I have an uncle who was a karateka. Everyday for years he would go into an old shed and punch the cinderblock walls until they would crack or break out. I once saw him rip out a doorfram from punching it. I believe he could honestly punch anything he wanted as hard as he could. However, the years of doing things like that have left his knuckles completely flat. He used to be a mechanic. Now he stands to the side and shows people where to turn a wrench because he cant anymore, at least for long periods. He's 44.

As for wraps, I dont use them much. I'll use the heavy gloves for stamina purposes, then once gassed, drop to open hands and push until I cant anymore. I spend alot of time on my bag. A couple hours a day.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 05:41 PM

Quote:

my frame of mind is, i won't have wraps or gloves in a real atreet fight or self defence situation, so wouldn't it be a good thing to train with them off so that i can deleiver power shots without bending my wrist or breaking my hand?




By that reasoning, you shouldn't wear padding in sparring and bare knuckle full contact sparring is the way to go. Moderation is what allows us to train consistently over long periods without stopping because of injury. You're probably making your skin more fragile as a result of your bareknuckle training, which will likely result in cuts in a real fight. There are much better ways of strengthening your wrists. Might I suggest looking up sledgehammer forearm training, grippers and wrist curls.
Posted by: Unsu

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 07:00 PM

Quote:

thanks guys,

to tell the trth, part of the reason i go bare handed on a bag is cause i can tell from the bruseing on the knuckles weather or not im hitting right. another reason is cause i don't know how to wrap my hands correctly, i have a pair of wraps and used them a few times, but cause i didn't wrap right they started to drift and loosen, so i ditched them.

i know alot of people would advise the use of wraps and such, but does anyone have anything to say about the conditioning value of bare handed bad work?? i know it dosen't stack up to a mak, but will it do the job while im makeing a new one??

by the way, do anyone elses hands shake after a hard bag work out?? i might need to see a doctor...

yours in life




If your mechanics are right, if you're crisp with your strikes and prevent your punches from scraping the bag you should be cool after doing this for three months or so. Your skin will become use to the roughness of the bag (or makiwara, etc.) once your motions are instinctive and refined and you have put some time in.

There is nothing wrong with using wraps or bag gloves. Some do and some don't. I only did before I was a teen then after that it's been all barehanded. Don't worry- be perseverant and you will be able to hit the heavybag fullforce with any punch, even an uppercut if you do it right.

Here's a post about barehanded bagwork I did last week on the "karate" forum. It's under "Unsu":

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...0&fpart=all

Peace and don't forget to use Neosporin on those lacs and abrasions when not training!
Posted by: Saisho

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 09:28 PM

I think the material the bag is made of will have some bearing as to the need for hand coverings. Some material is just harder on the skin.
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 09:34 PM

i don't use padding in sparing, or gloves. and moderation is the key i know, please don't make me out to be some extreamist for hard core cause i go barehanded on the bag.

i've worked my fore arms and my griping with various curls and stress ball squezing. but please explain where you learned that barehanded bag work will make my skin more likely to split in a real fight?? i always thought the opposite, hence the no wraps.

yours in life
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 09:55 PM

Are you serious?
Posted by: crablord

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 10:08 PM

ishin you really live up to your title lol. Hes serious alright, my bag tears your knuckles, whereas some nylon ones will just make your knuckles slip. Leather usually tears skin so if you have that you should wear some light gloves. Motorcross gloves are ideal
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 10:43 PM

am i serious? i guess i hit a nerve on an older inside joke type thing, or am i suposed to read your mind here??

i guess the general idea is to ware gloves then. i might just have to give it a shot.

yours in life
Posted by: Talimas

Re: save my knuckles - 12/11/06 10:49 PM

I tend to wear bag gloves now, when I was in my teens I didn't really care much, but I can't really afford to go into a meeting with torn up knuckles anymore, its just frankly not professional. As for training your knuckles and skin so they don't break in a fight... I would much rather my knuckles break open in a fight then have to hit someone while they are scabbed over or actually live my later days with disfigured knuckles.

But thats just my personal preference.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: save my knuckles - 12/12/06 12:37 AM

It's not a matter of "Should I vs. Should I not" ... it's about what you want to accomplish w/ your bag training.

If you want to bang for 45 min to train your enduramce & striking power, I agree w/ bag gloves alone or w/ wraps.

If, as you say, you want to toughen your knuckle skin & train bare-handed skills, go w/o the protection. But go for quality, not quantity...shorten your work-out. I've never seen a fight go on for 45 min.

The reason you're rolling your wrists is because you're getting tired & your technique is going down the drain. You learn nothing. Remember, every time you sprain a joint, you stretch the ligaments & they never shrink back to their original size. This makes your joints looser & more subject to later aprains.

Train smart.

owari
Posted by: Saisho

Re: save my knuckles - 12/12/06 02:14 PM

Quote:

Are you serious?




Yes. If I wasn't, I would have had something like this attached
Posted by: Triana

Re: save my knuckles - 12/14/06 05:16 PM

I've always prefered bare-knuckes as well, but I'm seriously considering getting wraps. Not so much to save my skin (as long as I'm hitting the bag right, that's not really an issue), but for the wrist support. Arthritis runs pretty strongly on my mom's side, and I don't want to give it any more headway than I have to.
As for HOW to wrap hands, this site seems pretty useful:
http://www.boxinggyms.com/tips/wraps/reverse/index.htm
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: save my knuckles - 12/14/06 07:05 PM

Seriously, try wraps if you want to be closer to bare knuckled. It's not necessarily that your skin will be more fragile in the long run because it will heal. But after a training session your knuckles will be fragile indeed. What if you need to use them then? Besides what's the point in cutting up your knuckles while you're training if you can do just as well without cutting them up on your bag. (I assume you use a leather bag. I used to train on canvas. Those get real bloody if you try them bare handed.)
Posted by: JoelM

Re: save my knuckles - 12/15/06 08:46 AM

I've just noticed that my knuckles are getting dry/raw from punching my wavemaster in the dry, cold garage.

Anybody else dealt with this? Seems to be a winter thing.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: save my knuckles - 12/15/06 05:29 PM

Ok, this might sound weird but... moisturise.

Your hands are important as a martial artist and you need to be able to use them easily. Keeping them in good condition is an important part of any long term training routine.

Try to get a moisturiser without any perfumes in it, this will be best for your skin.
Posted by: Hagakure

Re: save my knuckles - 12/15/06 07:59 PM

What about hitting a makiwara or iron palm training what's wrong with that?
Posted by: Kysogkram

Re: save my knuckles - 12/16/06 06:30 AM

Not sure what's with the whole "bare knuckles = crazy" thing.

Personally I always go bare knuckle on the heavy bag and I gotta admit I don't really see the issue. My skin doesn't tear at all. The thing is, if you do knuckle pushups your skin, wrists and hands will have a level of conditioning which should enable you to go bare knuckle on the heavy bag without problems.

Oh, and to those saying "yeah, you won't be able to use your hands", well I work as a webdesigner, so I rely heavily on my hands to be fairly precise, and I experience no trouble what so ever. My Sensei who has trained for 20+ years this way, has no trouble at all either, and he sits all day at a computer as well.

Sure, if you go punch a brick wall all day, your hands will be f*cked in 10 years, but how clever is that? You gotta punch something that has some give. Eg. a Makiwara, heavy bag, or whatever.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: save my knuckles - 12/16/06 08:31 AM

I don't know what kind of surface you've got on your heavy bag, but it must be great. The only reason I wear gloves on the bag is to spare my knuckles from tearing. If I could find a bag that didn't rip my skin off my knuckles after a 10 minute full speed workout, I'd buy it then and there.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: save my knuckles - 12/16/06 11:26 AM

Quote:

What about hitting a makiwara or iron palm training what's wrong with that?




Only just noticed this post. When hitting a makiwara, it only moves in one direction there is no lateral movement. This prevents you from hitting the device at an odd angle. When going full speed on a heavy bag, it is unlikely that you will direct the whole force of the punch into the bag directly every time. Hence, the skin on your knuckles is pulled and worn by the bag's surface, leading to tearing. Often the heavy bag will be swinging around when you chain punch it, adding to the likelihood of damage.

Iron palm training does not apply lateral force to the skin either, plus I believe the skin on the palm is more durable than that on your knuckles. Regardless, I don't personally see the benefit of doing either iron palm or makiwara training when a heavy bag is available to me.