POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface.

Posted by: kyokushinkai

POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 09:42 AM

I noticed when I kick the heavy bag that if I hit with my shin instead of my foot/instep that the bag moves a whole lot farther. In my kyokushin class however we were taught to strike with the instep. I heard Muay Thai strikes with the Shin.

what do you do?
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 09:58 AM

I put shin, because of my Muay Thai practice though its really a situational kind of thing. i do both, depending on the target but its mostly the shin.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 10:25 AM

I put shin as well, although I actually use the very bottom near the instep.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 12:14 PM

Not a good poll because you can only choose 1 option.

You can use toe when wearing shoes or ball of the foot to penetrate.

You can use the instep (2-3" above & below the joint) for competition (less chance for serious injury) or if you can't kick w/ the toe/ball of the foot.

Shin lower portion for impact.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 12:19 PM

Woah! Strange. The Kyokushin and Kyokushin derivatives that I am aware of and with whom I have practiced mostly use their shins as the striking surface. The second would be ball of the foot.

Top of the foot and instep is generally for longer reaching, jab like low kicks. I have never encountered a Kyokushin school so far that taught top of the foot, top of the instep as the primary striking surface.


BTW it would be shin for me.

-B
Posted by: bo-ken

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 12:34 PM

I use both but I tend to use my foot more.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 01:35 PM

There should have been a third choice with "both". Being TKD it is normally the instep of the foot however we also will use the shin, it just depends on what you are kicking, distance and what type of rules are in place. Realistically both, TKD sparring the instep, MMA style fighting both again.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 02:06 PM

I Wouldn't use either exclusively.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 04:06 PM

There is too great a risk of damaging the small bones of the instep, so I would use shin or toe of my shoe (ball of foot if not wearing shoes).
Posted by: DavidDude

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 05:22 PM

Shin mostly, muay thai for me.

But also foot if the situation calls for it.
Posted by: MikeChaff

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 05:33 PM

My TKD instructor explained this as: "In real fighting we use the shin, for power. But in sparring and competition we strike with the instep, more like a slap with the foot."

So that would be my answer.
Posted by: McSensei

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 06:16 PM

Having had the experience of snapping my shin many years ago, I always use the instep now. Most of my training has been to use the ball of the foot, however I don't find it particularly natural so I have settled on what feels best.

Also, to make a comment on the thought of breaking small bones in the top of my foot, I'd rather break them than my shin again! It's not likely to happen though because if I have to kick in a real situation absolutely full power then I will probably be wearing shoes or boots.
Posted by: BulldogTKD

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 06:27 PM

Speed- instep
power- ball of foot
power- shin if I am closer
Posted by: TeK9

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 06:36 PM

I prefer to use the instep. If you train for competition sparring in TKD you learn which are of the instep to use so you do not break hundreds of small bones. If I were to be in a real fight, I would also use my instep. Because I assume I would be wearing shoes which would protect me from injury or striking a persons elbow.

However, if I were to kick from close range then I would use my shin. However, I don't train my shin like Thai fighters do, so I imagine if I were to strike any other surface other than my opponenets stomach it would hurt pretty bad.
Posted by: kyokushinkai

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 08:44 PM

I have never heard of striking with the ball of the foot on a roundhouse..


also about the breaking small bones in the foot thing has anyone ever actually done this? I heard on discovery that the human foot is one of the strongest natural biostructures in the world ( maybe I heard this somewhere else ) can anyone verify/falsify this?
Posted by: Wasurenai

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 11:12 PM

Shin or ball of the foot.
Ball of the foot for a snappy, closer kick. Shin for power.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/17/06 11:35 PM

In ITF TKD we call your roundhouse kick a turning kick (Dollyo Chagi).
It can be performed using ball of foot, instep & knee. If one is wearing shoes, the toes can be used as an additional attacking tool.

Why do you call it a roundhouse kick? Are you kicking outside, going around the house or are you inside kicking around the house? if so, watch out for the lamps!
Posted by: kyokushinkai

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/18/06 12:08 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7851163544665086571&q=Muay+Thai

watch this video. The kick Pramuk ( the darker one ) does a lot not the front kick, but the roundhouse ( or atleast thats what we called it ).

I still don't see how with that kick you would use the ball of your foot. If I went upstairs and did that on the heavy bag I'd break my toes.

Are you talking about a sideways thrusting type kick oppose to a sideways kick with snap.
Posted by: Lambornima

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/18/06 01:05 PM

we have learned all three; ball of the foot, top of the foot, and shin. Im guessing that it depends on your target. I would imagine a shin would have a hard time getting to the head. for the rib area I would probably use shin, however with the ball of the foot you dont need as much power seeing as you are using contact point with a smaller surface area.
Posted by: Wasurenai

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/18/06 02:17 PM

Turning kick is a much better term. Dollyo chagi, in Korean. Mawashi geri in Japanese. Mawasu is "to turn." Should be turning kick, not roundhouse.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/18/06 06:05 PM

Kyokushinkai,

Just for some background, I have a Masters Degree in Anatomy and will have another graduate degree in Physical Therapy very soon. I offer that info so you can judge how much weight you wish to put on my statements.

The foot is a very strong biomechanical structure. It is designed to take a lot of impact and provide a great deal of spring for pushoff. It has aspects that make it adaptable to terrain and provide great balance. However, all of these strengths are involved when the foot impacts the ground on the bottom surface. When striking with the top, the foot is not as compact and does not have the advantages of its design. I am not implying that it will shatter and it might not even break, but there are 26 bones in the foot (7 in the instep) and these little bones can be displaced, if not broken, and that can cause a lot of pain and difficulty bearing weight.
Posted by: MikeChaff

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 06:25 AM

Actually, when I started TKD, the phrase 'turning kick' was initially of some confusion for me, because where I had originally trained in seal lung kung fu, the same term was used to mean something else. In seal lung, a turning kick is like a spinning kick, but where you don't pivot on the lead foot, you instead bring your lead foot across your body and turn into the kick. I quite like that distinction between turning and spinning, and it's a shame that more arts don't incorporate it, IMO.
And I prefer the term roundhouse kick. After all... well... it comes round.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 03:17 PM

Quote:

There is too great a risk of damaging the small bones of the instep, so I would use shin or toe of my shoe (ball of foot if not wearing shoes).




Too great of a risk? I'm not very wordly but I haven't really heard of problems of breaking small bones in the foot unless you mean catching a toe the wrong way.

On this forum and else where I constantly hear that TKD is mainly a kicking art. Well take it from a kicking art, the instep works just fine and the damage done is more then likely to the person taking the kick.
Posted by: kyokushinkai

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 04:25 PM

Yea.. but doesn't it also come down to what your striking.. everyone here has probably seen that kickboxing video where the two guys shins connect one guys shinbone snaps, and he comes back on it and well.. I never seen anything like this happen to the instep ( but from the way saisho put it I understand how it could )

thats the reason I initially made this thread, because I heard striking with the shin was less dangerous as the instep has small bones. Yet the only cases I have ever heard of kicking and breaking bones has been either toes or shins.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 04:26 PM

Quote:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7851163544665086571&q=Muay+Thai

watch this video. The kick Pramuk ( the darker one ) does a lot not the front kick, but the roundhouse ( or atleast thats what we called it ).

I still don't see how with that kick you would use the ball of your foot. If I went upstairs and did that on the heavy bag I'd break my toes.

Are you talking about a sideways thrusting type kick oppose to a sideways kick with snap.





I don't know what you mean by sideways thrusting kick, as we have a seperate side thrust kick in ITF TKD. So not getting sidetracked on semantics, I mean the same kick you would call a roundhouse. The ball of the foot is very strong & can be a very powerful attacking tool. Think front snap kick.
So if you are kicking with a roundhouse kick, deliver it in the same motion. However, keep your foot in the position it would be if you were standing. Don't move your foot into the position like you were on your "tippy toes". In fact, at the ITF World Championships (& other tournaments) the power test, used to start off at 6 boards, with the gold medal winner breaking close to 10 boards, with the ball of the foot. I would say that for our turning kick, it would be the primary tool. Very powerful!
Posted by: Shorinjiryumike

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 05:40 PM

Not enough options on the poll.

Many tournament ( Karate ) points are scored with the instep. In Shorinijiryu Kenkokan we also train ball of the foot and heel rounhouses for striking to the ribs and jaw.
Posted by: Saisho

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 07:16 PM

Quote:

On this forum and else where I constantly hear that TKD is mainly a kicking art. Well take it from a kicking art, the instep works just fine and the damage done is more then likely to the person taking the kick.




I don't study TKD and don't pay much attention to it, so I don't have a lot of knowledge about their sparring. However, two things are brought to mind.

First, the TKD I have seen involves shin and instep pads. My understanding is that since they don't want to do the damage a ball of foot kick can do to the head, they use the instep and use the pads because they know the risk of it being damaged.

Second, Does TKD use full force in sparring? I have seen them go pretty hard with all of their pads, but I have never seen full force.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/19/06 08:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

On this forum and else where I constantly hear that TKD is mainly a kicking art. Well take it from a kicking art, the instep works just fine and the damage done is more then likely to the person taking the kick.




First, the TKD I have seen involves shin and instep pads. My understanding is that since they don't want to do the damage a ball of foot kick can do to the head, they use the instep and use the pads because they know the risk of it being damaged.

Second, Does TKD use full force in sparring? I have seen them go pretty hard with all of their pads, but I have never seen full force.




Well I think it depends on what you are trying to do! if you are lokking to break or do damage to an opponent, then the ball of the foot affords you so much more power & concentration/focus of the attacking tool. If you are competing in a sport match, then the instep would afford more reach & less occasion to be disqualified for excess contact.
The tournaments vary from close enough, to touch to contact & then various levels of contact. I think it depends on the organization & host.

As far as TKD being a kicking Art, ITF has 3,200+ techniques. Approxiamtely 2/3 thirds are hands & 1/3 feet. It is a common misperception that it is a kicking art. Some of that might come from the fact that it contains numerous high, flashy kicks & flying kicks as well.
Posted by: Jeff_G

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/20/06 03:40 AM

1. I use the instep almost exclusively. When I kick, I want the target to be on the end of my striking weapon (my foot).
2. The only times I ever hurt my instep was when I connected with an elbow. That hurt for days.
3. When I kick a bag or someone in ernest, I don't want the bag or person to fly backward. I want him to break in half and drop where he stands.

Jeff G.
Posted by: Ironfoot

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/20/06 10:38 AM

A former sensei of mine would break several boards with a kin geri (instep), and he never broke a bone to my knowledge. However, he now has arthritis in that area.

I didn't vote either because of the limitations. I train for 4 surfaces:

instep is for sparring

toshi or ball of the foot for higher kicks & flexible footwear

toes in case I have hard shoes on, and just to make sure I won't hurt myself with a kick a little off

shins for if I want to go for the legs in a serious fight
Posted by: olga

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/20/06 10:50 AM

I study Aiki-Bujutsu, and for the roundhouse kick we kick with the ball of the foot exclusively. It delivers a powerful, very penetrating, "punch-like" strike. We are taught not to hit with the instep because of possible damage to the small bones of the foot as well as the ankle.

We also hit with a shin, but then we call it a roundhouse shin kick. This kick is devastating especially to nerve centers on the legs and the heartline.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/20/06 01:57 PM

Quote:

Yea.. but doesn't it also come down to what your striking.. everyone here has probably seen that kickboxing video where the two guys shins connect one guys shinbone snaps, and he comes back on it and well.. I never seen anything like this happen to the instep ( but from the way saisho put it I understand how it could )

thats the reason I initially made this thread, because I heard striking with the shin was less dangerous as the instep has small bones. Yet the only cases I have ever heard of kicking and breaking bones has been either toes or shins.




I have also never heard of the instep being broken but I do know 1st Dan in our school that has broken his shin several years back when he was competing and [censored] bone met shin bone. Not to mention many videos on the internet showing the same thing.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/20/06 02:00 PM

Quote:

I don't study TKD and don't pay much attention to it, so I don't have a lot of knowledge about their sparring. However, two things are brought to mind.

First, the TKD I have seen involves shin and instep pads. My understanding is that since they don't want to do the damage a ball of foot kick can do to the head, they use the instep and use the pads because they know the risk of it being damaged.

Second, Does TKD use full force in sparring? I have seen them go pretty hard with all of their pads, but I have never seen full force.




Not all TKD uses full force but in our school we do. When wearing equipment the shins are padded but even with this shins have been broken (see my post previous). I should point out that not everybody wears instep pads. Some have the shin and instep as one pad while others don't use instep pads at all, and I've never heard or seen any problems arise from this.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: POLL: Roundhouse kick. Striking surface. - 11/20/06 02:49 PM

About an hour after a tournament I competed in, when I was a yellow belt, my foot started bothering me. It was sore, but not super painful. A few weeks later, rather than getting better, it was getting worse, if I fully extended my foot, it would get stuck in that position. Very painful. After several months of not being able to find a cause, x-rays, mri's etc. I ended up taking the suggestion of a friend and going to a chiropractor, who finally determined that I had stretched the tendon or ligament or whatever it is on the top of my foot just enough to allow one of the bones in my foot to shift out of place, further irritating the ligament.

The only thing we can figure is that I must have hyper extended my foot with a turning kick during my sparring match. In any event. Its been two and a half years and I am only now just starting to kick with any force with my instep on that foot. In fact for the most part I tend to kick a bit higher on the foot, more in the curve of the foot, ankle area, rather than the actual instep because I still can't fully flex that foot.

The nice thing is that for the most part now I can tell when it out of place and can usually get it back into place on my own right away, rather than having to wait to see the chiropractor, so less damage is done.

Laura