Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci
Posted by: Prizewriter
Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 07:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dDOvPZEXwcWho hits hardest?
This is an experiment from the great National Geographic show "Fight Science".
In this test, they have practioners from Muay Thai, Karate, TKD, and Kung Fu all striking a crash test dummy that has been wired up with sensors by impact engineers and physicists to measure the force of their strikes.
Some interesting results. TKD kick, for instance, generated 1500 odd lbs of force, more than enough to break bones and damgae organs.
Guess who won though???
P.S. I also love the way the flashiest kick was the least effective!
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 08:06 AM
Talk about apples and oranges! Hey, maybe us karate guys should start using spinning back kicks like the TKD people and knees like MT, huh? Wait a minute....one of the 8 basic kicks taught in my style IS a knee strike. Hmmmm.
Posted by: Dobbersky
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 08:21 AM
I can view Youtube I don't seem to be able to get access
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 08:33 AM
Seems ok still. Go on to youtube.com and search for 'fight science kick ko'
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 08:47 AM
Seeing how much force that spinning back kick delivers makes me understand why MMA guys like GSP and Cung Le use it in their fights. Remember the spinning back kick that GSP gave to Matt Hughes last time, that was no flashy kick.
Posted by: Umbra_777
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 10:31 AM
Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dDOvPZEXwc
Who hits hardest?
This is an experiment from the great National Geographic show "Fight Science".
In this test, they have practioners from Muay Thai, Karate, TKD, and Kung Fu all striking a crash test dummy that has been wired up with sensors by impact engineers and physicists to measure the force of their strikes.
Some interesting results. TKD kick, for instance, generated 1500 odd lbs of force, more than enough to break bones and damgae organs.
Guess who won though???
P.S. I also love the way the flashiest kick was the least effective!
Force= mass * acceleration (or mass * speed^2)
The program fails to take into account the fact that the different fighters had significantly different masses (expecialy compare the Kung Fu guy and the Muay Thai guy).
Furthermore it doesn't take into account things like range, speed, accuracy, comboing, potential targets, defensability, etc.
Don't get me wrong, comparing raw power is an important thing. I just feel that it's important to take other factors into consideration as well.
However, it was cool seeing the different techniques. What was the punch that the Kung Fu guy did, I've got to learn that one. 
-Umbra 
Posted by: cxt
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 10:34 AM
Prize
"Fight Science" was a terrible show---little science and A LOT of "show."
Using the term "science" is less than correct.
They didn't even use a control group--would have been easy to use the guys running machines.
At best all it did was match a SINGLE group of people--5-6 guys comes nowhere close to sampling.
There are some serious errors made in the manner the tests themselves were conducted.
Posted by: Tom2199
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 10:43 AM
its gay they also use the whole banana tree myth for thai fighters
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 10:45 AM
I'd say that fight science is a lot better than most MA documentaries (heck, they had Rickson Gracie on the show). I only wish they'd not been so unbalanced about the whole thing and actually picked representatives of the martial arts who could be compared to one another. The roided TKD guy wasn't a great representative of the tenets of TKD if you ask me. Some of the stuff he said was rediculous ( like a bo being used to deflect arrows???
). The whole thing was very TKD biased, they even let the guy use a katana and he twirled the thing like a baton!
TKD is an empty handed MA, what the heck is he doing with a bo and a katana?
There are plenty of MA documentaries worse than fight science but it could have been way better than it was. At least the force measurements were accurate, but that doesn't say much about the actual arts. (Poor Kung Fu guy threw himself at the target and still did less force than the roided TKD guy)
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 12:36 PM
I enjoyed the show. I thought was more interested in the steak than the sizzle though. I found some of the sensationlist claims wayyyyyy tooo much.
But in terms of the actual factual evidence, it was a good show. It showed you how much strain MA's can put on their own bodies, but also their targets bodies.
I admit that all things were not equal. TKD guy looked way bigger than Kung Fu guy for instance. But he also looked way bigger than the Muay Thai guy.
And if though kicking banana trees 1000 times a day was OTT, you should avoid the Ninjutsu section of the show...
But at least it gave some interesting factual data, which is what my post was about, not all the hyperbole surronding the arts. I think most of us here are sensible enough not to believe that side of the show.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 04:19 PM
I agree with what was said in regards to implying one art has a monopoly on a technique. Knees and elbows are not exclusive to one art.
As far as the "science" goes, there doesn't have to be a control group, but there do need to be some controls. Outside of the individual techniques, everything else should be equal (size of person, gender, age, race, etc). Only then can you say that the technique is the determining factor.
In the end, it is still nice to see some hi-tec programming on the arts.
Posted by: MikeChaff
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 05:49 PM
I disagree. I don't at all accept that you can take two people of identical build, weight, race etc and find that they deliver the same amount of power. That completely fails to take into account their training methods and their personal level of skill.
That's like saying that my twin brother and I could start Taekwondo classes at the same time and ten years later both be able to deliver the same power of kick.
No, you need a control group. Any experiment that has only one subject to represent each martial art is deeply flawed. They should have had, say, at least five of each - five karate guys, five kung fu guys, five taekwondo guys, and so on. Then they should have averaged the results.
Just because one kung fu guy may do a duff kick doesn't mean that kung fu is therefore always less powerful than the other arts.
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 07:04 PM
Quote:
its gay they also use the whole banana tree myth for thai fighters
did they not use those in training back in the day? along with putting coconuts in water as targets?
the experiment was a fairly good idea to compare the surface differences of arts but the way it was carried out was really flawed. you can't generalize over a whole population by having a sample size of 1 person per art.
however, the results attained is much like any results you get in martial arts. Its all based on the individual. To generalize that TKD has the strongest kick is dumb because different individuals will give you kicks of varying strengths.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 07:23 PM
Banana trees are actually pretty soft and flexible, I could believe they were actually used as a substitute for a heavy bag. These days it's easier to train with a bag, of course.
Posted by: Stormdragon
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/17/06 10:22 PM
With a few exceptions, it again comes down to what we've known all along: it's the practitioner not the art.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/17/06 11:04 PM
You misread/misunderstood what I said. To have an accurate and valid test of a technique, you would have to have all other factors identical. Only then would you be able to identify one technique as being different than the other.
Posted by: Boomer
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/18/06 02:29 AM
Quote:
To have an accurate and valid test of a technique, you would have to have all other factors identical. Only then would you be able to identify one technique as being different than the other.
Agreed. The control group is one factor...my biggest problem is that the Thai fellow was able to hold the dummy in place, while the others had a free standing target. I'm sure that the spinning back kick (or any other technique)would have registered differently if the dummy's head and torso were secured in such fashion as when the Thai fighter held onto them himself. One of the things measured was "penetration"...this would definitely been different against a stationary/held target.
Posted by: crablord
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 02:36 AM
i havnt read much of this topic, but boomer i think you are talking about fight science or something? I think tests such as that are idiotic, since the muay thai guy was probably 30 kilos heavier and had a diferent target. Pure idiocy
Posted by: MikeChaff
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/18/06 04:18 AM
Quote:
You misread/misunderstood what I said. To have an accurate and valid test of a technique, you would have to have all other factors identical. Only then would you be able to identify one technique as being different than the other.
Yeah, I agree with that part. But the point I was making was that, in the real world, that would never happen.
If what you're saying is that you could get a karate guy with certain 'vital statistics', and then get a kung fu of equal build, weight, age, race, experience (?) and so on, that would be a fair test, I still disagree. Even if you pick the kung fu guy to have the exact measurements and background and so on to have him almost identical to the karate fighter, I don't believe the power of his techniques can speak for kung fu as a whole.
If one karate guy beats one kung fu guy, even if they are otherwise identical, that doesn't mean that karate will always be stronger than kung fu.
If this wasn't what you meant, if I'm still missing a point, then I'm officially stupid, and I apologise. 
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 05:17 AM
Quote:
Agreed. The control group is one factor...my biggest problem is that the Thai fellow was able to hold the dummy in place, while the others had a free standing target. I'm sure that the spinning back kick (or any other technique)would have registered differently if the dummy's head and torso were secured in such fashion as when the Thai fighter held onto them himself. One of the things measured was "penetration"...this would definitely been different against a stationary/held target.
Here's the thing though, in real life, the target is never going to be held in place for a back kick. Where as a MT knee is almost always thrown while holding your opponent. I have no problem with the MT guy being allowed to clinch the training dummy because it represents what would happen in real life.
I would personally like them to round up around 1000 martial artists of various styles and take an average power measurement for each MA. This would be closer to the scientific method they pretend to have.
Posted by: Lambornima
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 01:17 PM
In my opinion, a front kick is stronger than a side kick, its also faster.
I remember seeing a show on the discovery channel called "extreme martial arts". it was ok, it had a little too much flash for my liking but thats not the point. he did a front kick to a sensor and it measured some 2000lbs of force.
also, isnt a front kick a front kick and a side kick a side kick? does it matter if its Karate or TKD?
Posted by: Tom2199
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 02:52 PM
doesnt matter what art it is the technique is still the same, we do spinning back kicks in muay thai (not very often) one of the members broke someones rib with one sparring once.
Posted by: Saisho
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/18/06 05:55 PM
You are not officially stupid, but then again, I am not an official. I think you understand what I was saying and I agree with you, it is always best to have more subjects for any study. You mentioned having a number of people from each art and averaging their results. That is a good way to do any study.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 06:11 PM
Well, yes, otherwise you might pit the best practitioner of one art against the worst practitioner of another art. It stands to reason that the more people you test, the less likely it is that this will happen. Of course, it still won't be accurate because it might be that the practitioners in the region you checked happen to be under an organisation which has poor quality teaching and elsewhere the art could be very effective, but it's probably the best comparison that could be made. ( Barring a free for all 10000 MA fight to the last person standing
)
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 07:10 PM
So my question is, If it's like getting hit by a car at 35 MPH, why aren't there more dead MT fighters ? I'm not being sick or twisted, but has anyone seen anybody hit by a car at that speed ? I don't care what kind of physical shape your in, you are suffering SERIOUS damage ! Not taking anything away from the art, I respect it and its practioners immensley (as I do all arts), but the vid was definitley biased !
VDJ
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/18/06 11:30 PM
that mauy thai dude scares me o_O
great vid thanks for posting
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 03:56 AM
Quote:
So my question is, If it's like getting hit by a car at 35 MPH, why aren't there more dead MT fighters ?
Now, that's a really good question.
Posted by: MikeChaff
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/19/06 06:16 AM
Quote:
You are not officially stupid, but then again, I am not an official.
BEST... QUOTE... EVER. You just made me laugh like a crazy man.
Posted by: Tom2199
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 02:21 PM
i dont belive all that 35mph car stuff, the force generated by that and actually being hit by a car is obviously going to fling you over the bonnet, which is more than a knee would probably do...
as far as im concerned no human knee can recreate the force of a car hitting a wall, unless abbs can recreate the strength of a brick wall...
Posted by: TimBlack
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 02:32 PM
Quote:
Quote:
So my question is, If it's like getting hit by a car at 35 MPH, why aren't there more dead MT fighters ?
Now, that's a really good question.
I think it's probably because there's a big difference between the amount of force you can exert on an inert dummy and on a resisting human being. A real human doesn't just 'sit' in the clinch, the try to roll back with it, get their hands in the way etc. In some ways the sidekick, flying kick and spinning back kick were better examples because they show pure force generation, without the added 'holding someone down' factor.
To be honest, it's a bit odd comparing techniques with totally different ranges and purposes anyway. I mean, you wouldn't tell someone not to do an armbar because a sidekick generates 4* the force, would you? (I know, that's a made up figure). Kneeing happens at a totally different range to a spinning back kick and, frankly, if I could hit someone with 1500lbs of force from a meter away, I'd be pretty chuffed.
Posted by: Tom2199
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 03:16 PM
your sying in the whole history of muay thai no one has ever landed an effective strike? nope sorry it does happen and with full force no one can be on their gaurd all the time thats how you get knock outs, and if you look at the heavy weights they must generate even more force compared to the normal 60-67kg fighter.
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 03:46 PM
given that this was controlled the guy had time to set himself up and make sure to as perfect a form as he could (well perfect for him anyway). But many times fighters lose a lot of form in the ring so the strike wouldnt have been as strong as it was in the experiment.
But I do think thats a good question. Especially when a knee to the solar plexus can break a great number of bones there. What about knees that land on a person's face?
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 03:57 PM
I think Matt J found something once with the details of how much force it would take to break the bones in a persons face, as well as their nose.
Will PM him and see if he knows what I am talking about, I can't find the thread.
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/19/06 06:32 PM
From MattJ's thread (thanks Matt!):
Here are some listings compiled by user BatRonin:
"There has been some talk lately of how tough ot how weak the human body is.
There have been studies done on this by the SAE ( Society of Automotive Engineers).
There have been also many studies done on how much force a boxer ( for example) can hit with.
The latest:
By King at Wayne University:
Boxers can hit with an average force of 765 lbs
so, let us take that as an example and see what the bosy can with stand:
Biomechanical injury tolerance levels:
Throat- 300 lbs of force
Frontal bone ( forehaed)- 1900 lbs
Back of head ( occiptal)- 2100 lbs
Temporal - 1400 lbs
Zygomatic-800 lbs
mandible - 800 lbs
maxilla - 500 lbs
Lat. Maxilla - 700 lbs
"nasal bone"- 200 lbs
Cervical vertebra - 500 lbs
Crown of head - 1350 lbs
area above the ear - 650 lbs
sternum with 4" defelction ( penetration) - 960 lbs
ribs - 400 lbs ( 1-3 ribs are the hardest, 4-9 the most common to fracture)
Posted by: dre9292
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/20/06 12:10 PM
bahh the kung fu strikes seem underpowered
Posted by: olga
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/20/06 02:01 PM
Also they did not take into account the fact that the Thai fighter grabbed the head of the dummy and pulled it into his knee, thus making the knee strike more powerful...
I bet if the dummy did not have the room to flex backwards while it was being kicked by other guys, the result would've been completely different.
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/20/06 05:16 PM
well thats what wouuld happen if you got yourself in a thai clinch and got kneed in the chest. The pulling of the head and the thrusting forward of the hips is what makes a MT knee. While when people are kicking there is no pulling in force. All the techniques are executed right its just the data thats funky because a man probably would've gotten some good injuries from a knee like that.
Posted by: Umbra_777
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/21/06 10:20 AM
It seems to me that this was comparing apples to oranges. Knee strikes and kicks are two different types of tecnique that are used in different ways.
-Umbra
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/21/06 11:31 AM
Agreed, just like hand strikes are different from punches. They use different mechanics and fit into different catagories.
Posted by: Umbra_777
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/21/06 12:40 PM
Quote:
Agreed, just like hand strikes are different from punches. They use different mechanics and fit into different catagories.
As a side note I wish they would have let the Kung Fu guy try those balance pole things. After seeing him do the drunken fighting demo I think he had to have preddy good balance. Does anyone actually use those for training still?
Posted by: IExcalibui2
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/21/06 09:08 PM
probably shaolin monks? the only time I get to see people on poles is during a lion dance competition, where the lion is doing tricks and such on the poles. But other than that I dont think that they are used too often now these days.
Posted by: Landus
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/22/06 12:49 PM
This is really inconclusive! I'm sure they didn't even say how powerful the Muay Tai kick was in terms of pounds?!
Posted by: Lambornima
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/26/06 08:57 PM
there was no muay thai kick, there was just a knee.
Posted by: MA_Student
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight Sci - 11/26/06 11:34 PM
I loved that show, really interested. But I didn't take everything to heart. The sample was misrepresented, and it was real unbalanced.
I loved how they had a wushu guy try and do the wing chun styled punched. I doubt that guy ever learned it, so there is no way he'd be able to generated as much power as a guy that actualled has learned the punch of that particular style.
Interesting show nonetheless.
Posted by: vegantkd
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/27/06 12:05 AM
That TKD guy was getting on my nerves. And he should've worn the top part of his do bok.
Posted by: Shouji
Re: Karate vs TKD vs. Muay Thai vs. Kung Fu Fight - 11/30/06 05:05 PM
Quote:
That TKD guy was getting on my nerves. And he should've worn the top part of his do bok.
That guy was pretty big. Plus its martial arts on a tv show, that rarely ever gets right.