National geographic show on Martial Arts truths

I posted a review on another forum in similar fashoin to the one Ed posted. I will copy and paste my post here with out fear of rehashing anything Ed had mentioned.

Here goes....

National Geographic’s Fight science Review

So I was told by everyone including my mother to watch the Nat Geo Fight science episode tonight. So I figured I’d start a thread and make some comments.

Overall I was mildly disappointed in how it was presented. I actually found the show “inside maximum security” which was on before much more informative, as it dealt with criminals inside Oak Park Heights Supermax. It showed specifically how one criminal (Darnel Smith)manipulated a CO to help him commit murder through deception, deceit espionage, seduction, gossip, rumors, forced teaming, trust, charm and charisma as well as showing how weapons are made, concealed and used for real.

However I did enjoy the Fight science show as it is always interesting to see how science analyzes fighting. I will quickly point out where they missed the mark.

First I didn’t like how they compared the punching power of each style as if the style itself was lacking and not the practitioner, this was kind of Deceiving in my opinion. Next I didn’t understand why they listed the Muay Thai Knee Strike as so deadly yet failed to show the Foot Pounds it delivered, this leaves me feeling a bit mislead.

They also called Rickson Gracie the best fighter in the world, I know he is undefeated but Best in the world is a tall order.

I was a little disappointed that they did not measure the Foot Pounds of the Flury of Strikes I was really curious to see how much damage hundreds of strikes a minute might actually do.

They also left me hanging a bit with the reaction time section, I think there is so much more that could have been done in this area.

Then they brought out the Ninja which again claims to be the most deadly art… With all the science I was disappointed to here them still playing off the 1980’s American ninja fantasies but I guess it is alright. More importantly what bothered me was when the ninja performed his Hammer fist strike on the Crash test dummy, the tests showed 2inches of chest deflection which is nice but neglected to show the Foot Pounds it delivered again this leaves me feeling a bit mislead.

The breaking was interesting and I almost got excited when the briefly mentioned how a human moves around and I thought they were going to go into a sequence analyzing that aspect which would have been very cool but they moved into weapons. I’d still like to see someone break 2 bricks stacked with out spacers.

So the weapons section was almost complete with out complaint but two things made me feel again mislead. First no foot pounds shown for the sectional staff or nunchu and the Katana cutting the ballistics gel. Yes the gel mimics flesh but did not include bone or vital organs. I could have been satisfied with simply including bone, The mythbusters include bones in their ballistic gel dummies?

They ended the show by saying that the katana sword was the best weapon for a martial artist. Now there is no denying that Martial arts is synonymous with Self defense yet the show did not include the Hand gun or Shot Gun (yet they included the Bow and arrow). I believe that a well handled firearm will without a doubt defeat any warrior with a katana sword.

Finally the most lacking and disappointing part was the fact that they didn’t even touch for a moment on the behavioral aspect of combat not even fear. Maybe Psychology is not a science? Overall in terms of reality and importance of information I feel this show did little to help increase the viewers knowledge of combat or enhance their survivabilty. However from a creativity point of view it was entertaining.

My two cents.
Maybe my bias is because I spent 4 hours today fighting off Ronnie and his Friends with metal training blades?

P.S...
I'm really glad I'm not the only one who found the info suspect. A lot of my friends were calling me to say how great it was .

yea the show was pretty entertaining but it had alot of gaps.
I like how they had a kind of diverse group of people though and giving factual data for people to see.

I dont like how they compare the styles. When they were testing the kicks all the kicks done there were pretty common to relatively all the arts that were there, say except Muay Thai. And different kicks will give different results. Having the kungfu guy do a flying drop kick was kind of stupid in my eyes. And the Muay Thai guy didnt even kick the dummy, it would have been nice. His knee was like comparing a punch and an elbow.

Also the broad generalization of Kungfu is something that the western world likes to do, which sucks. At least they stated he did WuShu and Drunken (something they could have done more research on) but saying he does Kungfu generalizes to all types of kungfu and alot of them are very different from one another. The kungfu punch also doesnt have that I guess Chinese characteristic snap to it (not limited to only Kungfu). It looked kinda bad in my eyes especially when they mentioned Bruce Lee with Kungfu...his punches didnt look liek that.

The Ninja being the deadliest was pretty bogus too and his knowledge of dimmak...maybe it just slipped their mind but alot of other arts have Dimmak or Pressure Point striking in their system too. And the words Dimmak is chinese! I guess it just gives more an Asian feeling to it?

The segment on BJJ could've been a little bigger. All he did was just crank the dummy's neck slowly, which I think should a been done faster. When you're gunna break the guys arm in the armbar its gunna be quick, *BAM* his arm is broken. Not slowly put tension on it.

I found the 2nd half on weapons not as interesting as their studies started to diverge from the factual numbers and more just about the weapon itself. And they didnt even get those samurai guys to stab the ballistics with the sensors!

Thanks for the reviews, folks.

I think everyone was/is expecting too much from this program. There is only so much they can fit into a two hour program (with commercials.) I agree with many of you on some of your points. I wish they would have had more parity among the arts (like showing everyones force?)

The data needs to be examined at face value. Of course there are factors that change force and effectiveness within the context of a fight, but they were just testing raw data.

The Ninja (Glen Levy) put it best (paraphrasing) "...It's not who's best day to day or who trains the best, but who's best that second..."

Overall, I thought it was good (and light years beyond Discovery's XMA) I really enjoyed the three criteria for weapons. The show aside, think about it. Take your favorite weapon and plug it into flow, power and range and see how it stacks up against others. I already have. Thanks for listening.

Ed,
I found the show entertaining, but saw a lot of the same flaws in it that you did... but for different reasons.

I don't think National Geographic actually researched to find the "best" martial artists in the world for these tests, or they would have talked to some of the real masters of them. While most of the masters are very old, they have students who could have exhibited more of the "real stuff" than these fakey champions they presented as the "worlds best".

Much of martial arts doesn't deal with force delivery anyway... such as strikes to vital points (eyes, throat, groin), so the total concentration of the program to measure "force delivery techniques" does a real disservice to people who train to effectively deliver dynamic techniques.

I agreed with most of their "true and false" comparisons, but not necessarily for the same reasons either. I think they should have done a little more research before tauting this as the "martial science" of martial arts. There's way more than they can cover in an hour and a half... JMO

I watched this last night also and I had some goods and bads:

Goods:
It was cool to know a snake strikes at 8-10 ft/s and a punch was >40 ft/s. I doubt that punch would blow a leaf off a desk top but a good snap punch could probably be around 20-25 ft/s.

The Wolfs Law thing was neat about bone trauma. I'm sure we all knew this but it's nice to know it's actually a studied item.
Was nice to get a range for the force from a punch. I agree that the size of the person punching is just as important as form so it was flawed.

I was very surprised how little difference there was between the punches and kicks in terms of force. The TKD guy punched for something like 850 lbf and he did a spinning back kick that only did 1500. The karate step in side kick was only around 1300 lbf.

The bo was interesting to watch but they used a weak wood bow and hit as had as they could with a full wind up. My understanding of the bow is you hit as hard as you have to and always keep control of the entire weapon.

Bads:
No discussion at all about body mass and striking area in their analysis. These most definatly apply.

The whole weapons thing was hokie. They showed people smacking the dummy with weapons and only said "the force is enough to break bones".

I was highly irritated that they had the TKD guy introduce the bo and katana and showed him twirlling a toothpick for minutes on end.

The ninja thing was weak. The balance was cool but what does walking up some poles have to do with fighting. The hammer fist to the chest was not very information becasue they, once again, changed the units they presented the information in to some 0-1.0 dealdy scale and didn't give any detail information over than "It's deadly." Heck, a medium power hit to the temple is deadly and I don't have to wind up and run across the room to hit.

Knowing the limited amount of info they gave for the Muay Thai knee strike was OK but it was a COMPLETELY different attack than the other kicks. It was braced, the attacker had something to pull into the strike with, the dummy had a velocity towards the knee. The physics are just totally different. I agree that it would hurt like heck but that wasn't the point.

Very little discussion (other than a tiny bit with the ninja) about hitting the right spot and not just blasting the entire body with an attack.

Maybe instead of Fight Science they should have called it "The Physics of Punching & Kicking...and Stabbing, Apparantly"? Kinda wordy, but they could sell it with a jingle. And they could have contest on their website for who can come up with the best jingle. The winner gets his/her jingle sung by Christina Aguilera, then gets to pick which MA from the show does a flying kick to her face!
I'm awesome.

My observations include:
1. The graphic presentation of how techniques work was great.
2. The fix was in. Each art (instructor) represented some how turned out to be the best in a category. So everyone won and no one lost.
3. While the analysis of what a technique did was good, the explanations of the arts, and their specialities was the same old un supported bs, like the line Weapons came from farm implements. They could spend the money to do the graphics and technical analysis, but they couldn't do more than re-use the same old stuff.
4. The serious technique power analysis (of the punch and kick) was seriously flawed. Not measuring the foot pounds, but they really should have had technique performers of approximately the same size and the same time training to begin to see if one art could kick or punch harder than the others.

Humbly I might add, there wasn't at technique or principle in the first hour that my students don't study. And I would submit that many other arts cover the same material.

So to suggest they know what they're talking about is pure b.s..

I watched the show and found it interesting but I looked at it as a TV show and not much more.

One thing I noticed, the MT Kick boxer’s Knee had a .6 penetration, the ninja’s hammer fist had a .8. They did not say much about it but if you pay attention it’s there. I was surprised that it was not dealt with on camera more but who knows…

I wish they would’ve had better players rather than the collection of tournament guys they had. I would have preferred to see some more actual Masters of the arts, that and they should have let Obata take a few shots at that ballistic gel dummy, rather than the TKD guy. As soon as the threw his sword in the air…meh. I would also have like to see just how much force a throwing art generates when the person taking the throw hits the deck from a full force throw, along with the inverse of how softly the thrower can control the landing.

The breaking I thought was kind of cool from just a numbers perspective. My problem with this is I could teach anybody with a strong arm and a weak mind to do that (did you see their eyes? ^ >). Personally I would have also liked to see someone with solid technique do some small quantity short distance breaks, or a Tai Chi master do some slow breaks (I have seen it one time and was BLOWN AWAY)

But the best part of the whole thing was the reaction from the engineers. The continual w... w… w… wow this stuff really works was amusing.

Just my .02

-JBC-

“doesnt breaking take alot of mental concentration of getting your form correct and also envisioning blasting your body beyond what you are breaking? Because if this isnt the case anybody could break stuff.”

Good question…
First you need to understand the different breaks.
Power – Like what they showed
Speed – The target is unsupported and you break it before it has a chance to move.
Technique – these are the subtle breaks, these more fit into what you are talking about.

The breaking they showed is really more of the same. If you can break one all that is really required is more speed and more power. Most of their breaks used a tremendous amount of raw strength and body weight. Seriously, how much technique is involved in running into a rack of concrete?

Please don’t misunderstand me, I can not do what they did. But what I am talking about is not just raw power. Even when I do power breaks (my personal best was 8 patio slabs with a ridge hand) I still have balance and control. There is no jumping, no falling down, and it looks effortless.

I saw a Tai Chi master break one time. Two students where sitting back to back. They where the support method for two (not spaced) patio slabs (2x8x16 and about 20 pounds). As slowly as you see Tai Chi practitioners move he broke both blocks using his first two fingers. Through only the power of his technique he over came the amount of give in the students, and still had the force required to break the blocks.

Another one (this I can do), take your hand and place it on a supported patio slab, with out pulling your hand back and with out falling down break the block (most people wont even see your hand move). I watched my instructor do this with two unspaced using his head. His hair moved like he got punched and the floor shook unbelievably but other than that there was no perceivable motion.

Anybody can break concrete if properly instructed. Very few people can do the breaks I am talking about.

I hope this helps,
-JBC-

Dang it, I missed the BJJ part of the show! It sucks that they didn't have some judoka like Swain on there to ippon the beejezus out of someone and then measure the impact,speed,etc.

Also, if they could have had a Royal Rumble style elimination match at the end with all the participants, it would have been better. Rickson by armbar.

You dind't miss much. The BJJ portion was brief. They showed a neck crank and that was it.

I don't get the channel so I am hoping it is replayed later on another channel. Even with all of the comments I would have liked to see this. They may have needed to have had more people do this so that they could have averaged out the information, but I think that they would have been smart enough to pick individuals that were in the higher catagory for skill. For the breaks the practitioner probably got the spot to do this as they were better then all of the others that did it and so he was chosen. This would then give them the wow factor they were looking for plus keep the show in the time allowed. Just my opinion from what I've read here and the other threads.

Well we can't expect much coverage but I think we could at least expect a little accuracy. Their coverage of the shaolin temple was much better, they just let the monks talk.

Katana the best martial arts weapon? I think this is the most absurd statement they've made. Best weapon for what? A basket hilted cut and thrust sword or early rapier is a better dueling weapon, a spear or other polearm is a better infantry battlefield weapon, while similar, I'd say a an eastern style cavalry saber makes for a better cavalry sword, it's certainly made of superior steel. It's difficult to determine what exactly the katana is supposed to be good at, it's a pretty versatile weapon, I'll give it that.

Oh more internal kind of breaking...true you can do that too
well I guess its just 2 different ways to do something. One being more soft or using that "ging" power/inch power while th e other focuses more on physical posture and technique

Guru Dan turned 70 about a month ago, I hope the vid comes to the UK soon - would love to see his Kali section.

Well it turns out I do have the National Geographic Channel and this is replaying on Monday, September 4, 2006. Couldn't wait to watch it so a guy burned it to a CD and I watched it last night. I thought it was okay but I think the way they portrayed it still leaves too much mysticalism that the general masses will buy into.

The download took me 1 hour and 30 minutes to watch as all of the commercials were editting out of it. Excellent quality and viewed in windows media player.

The show left me with a lot of unaswered questions and wanting to know more. I wanted to know more truths and see some other masters of these arts perform these things. The special affects were great but it really did not help at all in my opinion.

What [censored] me off is they had a TKD practitioner use the Katana.

I don't know why that ticked you off. Obviously he knows TKD but he obviously knows other martial arts as well as weapons. He seemed pretty proficient to me at many things that are not TKD. Don't get hung up on stupid stuff like this ... it is the martial artist not the art ... and I think this was the biggest flaw of this whole program.

I agree with you too on how it was the martial artists and not the art.

But he was spinning the sword around like it was a batton, notice none of the iaidoka did that?

skill is one thing Dereck, but skill in what? brief true story: when I was a kid, I did learn bojutsu for a very short time...I was practicing outside at home, trying to manuver it without konking myself in the head - along comes my sister, who had 2 years of baton and 3 years of ballet, she sees what I'm trying to do and shows me 'a better way to do it' lol so I learned how to 'twirl a bo'. -that particular skill wasn't bojutsu...it was baton ballet.

Thats what I saw on the program. a TKD guy who learned bojutsu from my sister.

That really was the biggest flaw, the whole show rested on the premise that the selected MAists and their moves were a perfect representation of the style. For instance, the conclusion was drawn that the strongest kick is a muay thai low round house, pretty much all the styles represented (except boxing) have that very same kick, they just never used it in that test. Was it really news that the controlled low shin kick was more powerful than the karate guy drop kicking the crash dummy. Another conclusion was that Ninjutsu was the'best', with speed and power. They never even considered that the Ninjutsu guy was better than the rest.

What really annoyed me was the NOISES the TKD was making with every single attack and the cheese factor of the show. I liked the scientific breakdown of weapons, that was actually quite enlightening, the changing ratios between range, power, and controlability.

I am living in china right now, so have not gotten to see the show. However I have read all the posts, and I think one thing is being skipped, the mental and spiritual aspects of martial arts. All this talk of this style being better then that style, all nonsense of course, masked the one glaring inaccuracy in this show from my standpoint, and that is that no style means anything if you lack the mental an spiritual tools to use them properly. Anyone can be taught to kick, punch, or weild a sword well. However, without facing one self, conquerings ones fear, and learning how to channel ones own chi in differing ways can one ever hope to be anything but technically proficient, and they won't do very well in combat. Sounds to me like this show focused solely on the body, and skipped the mind and spirit, two out of the three which make us whole. I would say from what I have read that this show had way more gaps and inaccuracies then you all are alluding to.

I found it interesting, obviously there are going to be flaws in a 2 hour TV program, but some of the information they came up with was interesting, and it got me thinking of ways to improve my game, so in all I'd call it a success.

Any complaints if I post a link to a torrent site that has this program for download?

I've just watched the program, gotta say as a MA'ist I didn't really come away with much from it. The technology they used was interesting, but most of the conclusions as to which art had the most powerful kick/punch/etc was a bit, no offense, laughable. It was almost as bad as someone asking you which MA was the best, except NG took it further and spent thousands on a tv equivalent.

Finished the vid and went straight to google video to watch a couple of Dan Inosanto vids and was much happier

I finally watched the program. I was impressed with their testing capability, but not with their choice of subjects. Not that I could do better, because I can't. It is just that there was so much difference in the sizes, ages, talent & even gender. When you do an experiment, many variables, such as these, must be controlled for.
I would have thought they could use nuetral performers, who were instructed to strike in the various different ways/methods.
For me, it was entertaining & I took from it, that there is some good power generated through martial art movements, against fixed targets/breaking materials etc. I think many of us realized that already.
I am just wondering how the general public viewed it?

I think the biggest problem is they did not have a control variable. You know the average person. This is a defacto rule of scientific experimentation. They should have found some Joe Couch potato to go and strike everything and see what he could do!

Ken

You hit it right on the head:

No CONTROL VARIABLE!