Professor Cates "nails it"
Posted by: wristtwister
Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 12:39 AM
Nobody enjoys discussion boards any more than I do, but I read an article recently where Professor Ernie Cates nailed what's going on in martial arts today. His quote:
Quote:
"Lately, I’ve been noticing a lot of verbal sparring on the Internet. Most of the time it’s by someone who chooses to stay anonymous or uses a synonym. Either way the respect I once saw for those who paved the way is now being challenged at every step and its usually by someone who wasn’t there nor would they be able to handle that type of training environment. The Internet is not the mat and some of these paper tigers will never understand real martial arts and real martial artists. The superiority of a martial art is not proven by words on the Internet, enough said.
Secondly, people need to continue training, no matter how old or injured they become, they need to train. Too many Black Belts are sitting on the sidelines and observing rather than participating."
Additionally, it angers me that within the Martial Arts we have so much squabbling and stupidity under the cover of anonimity. If someone has something to say, say it and don’t hide under some code name on the Internet. A good friend of mine was recently attacked on the Internet and the attacker left this disrespectful and disgraceful statement on a message board without a name attached. This has no place in the Martial Arts.
Go get'em Professor... 
Posted by: Mr_Heretik
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 01:14 AM
OH YAEH! WELL MARTAL ARTZ R TEH SUK!
MattJ recently posted a link to a video which may show evidence of what the professor was speaking of.
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=2061 Look at the comment directly under the video box.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 01:33 AM
Nailed it.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 01:35 AM
I'm all for putting real names.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 07:09 AM
Brian's signature says it all:
"When all is said and done there's alot more said than done."
Posted by: Karateka_Pat
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 08:12 AM
Osu!
I'm in total agreement with this guy. Well found.
Pat
Posted by: Galen
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 08:34 AM
Quote:
Lately, I’ve been noticing a lot of verbal sparring on the Internet. Most of the time it’s by someone who chooses to stay anonymous or uses a synonym. Either way the respect I once saw for those who paved the way is now being challenged at every step and its usually by someone who wasn’t there nor would they be able to handle that type of training environment.
Sorry. Totally don’t buy into this.
An interesting contradiction. First of all, he says that these challengers hide behind a screen of anonymity, and yet he these goes on to say that they weren’t there and wouldn’t be able to handle that kind of training environment. If they are anonymous, how would he know that???
Sorry. Sounds like he is just ticked off because his old paradigms are being challenged. Which, buy the way, is a wonderful thing. I think every martial artist should have their basic principles challenged. No better intellectual exercise to go through than having to re-examine all those little things you have come to believe.
Quote:
The Internet is not the mat and some of these paper tigers will never understand real martial arts and real martial artists. The superiority of a martial art is not proven by words on the Internet, enough said.
I agree in part, but this is the age old argument made by someone who cant support their arguments in an intellectual format. Agreed, the internet is not the mat, but if his arguments cant stand on their own, how is that the fault of those challenging his perspectives? If the superiority of a martial art cannot be proven by words, then why argue about it on the internet in the first place???
Quote:
Secondly, people need to continue training, no matter how old or injured they become, they need to train. Too many Black Belts are sitting on the sidelines and observing rather than participating.
TOTALLY agreed!!!!! God love ya!!!
Quote:
Additionally, it angers me that within the Martial Arts we have so much squabbling and stupidity under the cover of anonimity. If someone has something to say, say it and don’t hide under some code name on the Internet.
What name I choose to use when I post is completely my business, and no business of anyone I happen to be talking about, or to. As a matter of fact, with the number of nut cases running around, I think anyone who posts under their real name is just asking for trouble. And again, I come to the fact that what you choose to call me, or what I call myself is irrelevant to any intellectual discussion. Any arguments should be able to stand on their own, regardless of who is making them.
Quote:
A good friend of mine was recently attacked on the Internet and the attacker left this disrespectful and disgraceful statement on a message board without a name attached. This has no place in the Martial Arts.
I do agree that personal attacks are far too common and far too accepted a means of communication over the net, however…
News flash for ya Prof. This isn’t the martial arts. This is a message board on the internet. Do I like the careless social interaction that often accompanies internet discussions? Not one little bit, but it is a fact of life. If anyone goes to a martial arts forum and expects it to be run like a martial arts school, they are in for an ugly surprise.
If the good Professor doesn’t like the format, he can certainly choose not to participate, but I don’t see it changing any time soon, exactly because it is the internet, and to a large degree anonymity (and all that goes with it) is the order of the day.
G
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 11:51 AM
Interesting post, wristtwister.
I think the professor and Galen both make good points. People are entitled to their opinions, but they have far less weight with me if they do not offer any background or personal context when discussing.
I am not clear about his point about keeping training, however. That is a given, and was a problem long before the internet was popular. How many of us have known folks that get to XYZ belt rank and *POOF* disappear from training, only to talk endlessly (in person or on the net) about what they did.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 12:19 PM
I thought that Professor Cates has about the best perspective on real martial arts of anyone I've ever met. He was business partners with Don Nagle (Isshin Ryu) and trained with some of the best people in American martial arts history. He trained Olympic competitors and was active in the formation of the USA's national judo programs.
Like he said, the internet isn't the mats, and a lot of the "intellectual" internet martial artists have never set foot on them or had to block a punch to keep from getting their teeth knocked out, so
their credibility is what is questionable... not the real players. They are like generals that never have been in a battle, so their perspectives, while they might be "intellectual" are way off in practice. A good old fashioned "a$$-kickin'" changes a lot of perspectives.
I've said many times "it's all about intent"... if your intent is to make somebody look intellectually foolish and you're good at crafting your arguments to do that, then you better stick to the boards. On the mat, you'll get your a$$ handed to you. The old saying that "old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill" is true... so let's keep it real, and remember that one of the reasons there are "old martial artists" is because they've been there and back... not just for the argument, but for the fight.
Posted by: Ronin1966
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 12:58 PM
Hello Wristtwister:
Thank you for posting Mr. Cates perspective for us!
Many may disagree, but I side with Galen in many respects on this matter. The internet is a place to present IDEAS. No matter how much you wish or NEED to "show me" the "reality" of ones effectiveness or "correctness" of your views... unless I can do so intelligently, coherently they do not stand up!
And one must be obscenely careful NOT to bolster whatever ones position/idea with ones ranking. That too is completely irrelevent. Whatever ones experience(s) or their lack thereof, throwing them to support ones perspective is dangerous stuff. Do not try and sway/influence me with your "experience" the idea is either well presented and understood or they are not. One is either able to present in a depthful manner or one is not.
For a teacher that is the nature and true responsibility of their job.
If one is unable to be articulate, unwilling to engague in DISCUSSION, hone ones presentations of ideas large and small... the internet is the wrong place for "you". My titles whatever they might be are 100% superflous.
Here (as in the ~real world~) what matters is do I know what I am doing. Do I understand my practices, my art(s) sufficently so that I can talk about it with others and explain to them my understandings... engague with them in dialogue, debate, gentle probing explore their views and perspectives.
Squabbling, stupidity unfortunately is the nature of much of our species. I too have such flaws in abundance. The internet allows many to share, some to vent, many to learn or be gently challenged. The mind is a wonderful thing, and the most effective when it is OPEN. If I am venting or troubled, confused my cyber annonimity allows me to be direct in ways that in person, or in other roles may not be possible face to face. If someone wishes to know who I am, or something of my background merely ask. I cannot speak for trolls or children, but if the professor, or his friend had ~real issues~ of offensive behavior or rudeness they should speak with the individual themselves.
It is heretical on my part I acknowledge, but I can do nothing about a past of which I was not a part. Many practices of the past are easily debatable and well should be. Because something was done ~long ago~... does that mean whatever that might have been then is somehow the only "correct" way? Tough does not mean smart necessarily.
Forgive my foolish ramblings,
J
Posted by: Galen
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 01:13 PM
Quote:
I thought that Professor Cates has about the best perspective on real martial arts of anyone I've ever met. He was business partners with Don Nagle (Isshin Ryu) and trained with some of the best people in American martial arts history. He trained Olympic competitors and was active in the formation of the USA's national judo programs.
Again, this is your perspective based on your experience with the man. I don’t argue it by any means. How can I? I have never met him. Every bit of what you claim may be true, but when it comes to a forum like the internet, none of this matters. Here, its ALL presentation.
Quote:
Like he said, the internet isn't the mats, and a lot of the "intellectual" internet martial artists have never set foot on them or had to block a punch to keep from getting their teeth knocked out, so their credibility is what is questionable... not the real players. They are like generals that never have been in a battle, so their perspectives, while they might be "intellectual" are way off in practice. A good old fashioned "a$$-kickin'" changes a lot of perspectives.
Gotta disagree again. Do you really believe that who can beat whose ass defines right of perspective?? Just because I have a different view of a certain technique, and just because you can kick my ass, doesn’t for a second mean I wrong!
Might does not make right.
Thing is, I see where you are going with this. I agree that experience counts for a lot, however, in a venue like the internet, experience means nothing. People’s claims to experience (I trained with so-and-so; I wont this and that tournament) cannot be verified. You say that you have the experience. I cant verify that, so it doesn’t figure into the conversation.
On the mat, absolutely. On the internet, absolutely not.
Quote:
I've said many times "it's all about intent"... if your intent is to make somebody look intellectually foolish and you're good at crafting your arguments to do that, then you better stick to the boards. On the mat, you'll get your a$$ handed to you.
Assuming that this is so, the opposite is true as well. If you can ONLY perform well on the mat, but cannot form a cohesive, intellectual argument, then you better stay on the mat. On the internet, you will get you a$$ handed to you.
Quote:
The old saying that "old age and treachery will defeat youth and skill" is true...
Ah the rallying cry of all aging warriors, and it isn’t true.
Tell me…how many professional boxers are there over the age of 50?? How many UFC / Pride champions are there over the age of 50???
Damn few, if any.
Why??
Because they CANT keep up with youth and skill. Hard pill to swallow, but true none the less.
Quote:
so let's keep it real, and remember that one of the reasons there are "old martial artists" is because they've been there and back... not just for the argument, but for the fight.
And herein lies one of my most basic points. Yes, the old timers (and God help me, I am becoming one) have been there and back, but you cannot expect everyone to bow and scrape to you simply because you have been around for 100 years. I have known plenty of old timers who are complete idiots (as well as some absolute brilliant ones as well).
You want to keep it real?
Then stop pretending that being experienced automatically means being right.
G
Posted by: cxt
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 01:48 PM
Kinda with Ronin 1966/and Galen on this.
One of the advantages of the internet is that we can use it to get past notions of rank and status and focus on the quality of ideas presented.
Is this system perfect?
No.
Is it abused?
Sometimes.
But I think the advantages outweight any negatives.
I agree with the prof--except that I think various argeuments and sqaubbles have pretty much always been a part of martial arts.
Its not in any way "new."
Kinda saddened that its not.
Posted by: Cord
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 05:33 PM
If you were a fly on the wall in any bar/pub on any friday/saturday night of the year you could hear any and all of the following: Humour, critique, lies, tall stories, knowledgeable conversation, heated argument, sexual banter, and all other variations on the human condition. That is all face to face RL interaction, and the internet merely reflects what humans talk about in general- the only thing that changes is that it allows you to be that fly on the wall and interact with the bar patrons at will.
My frustrations if i were coming from this professor's point of view, would not be the content of the internet chat rooms, but rather the human traits it brings so sharply into perspective.
as it is I am with Galen on this issue. Some posts are good, some are bad, I use my own judgement to take what I consider to be of value from the medium.
I am still very much in awe that we have such a wonderful tool as the net with which to be so dissatisfied.
Posted by: Joss
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 05:58 PM
I can sympathinse with Professor Cates feelings, but one need to keep in mind that if you fight battles on the internet, you pretty much have to accept the trash that comes with the venue. The equivalent, in person, would probably be like trying to have a serious discussion in an insane asylum.
Until a person has experienced the full scope of ugly ignorant prating that often passes for internet discussion, they will probably be in shock at some of the things said. Plus it will certainly make them appreciate a well managed site.
Still, the bottom line is that you need to value someone's words - to be wounded by them.
Posted by: Shouji
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 06:34 PM
Anyone who wastes their time trying to prove a point across the net, without any real experience of that point, is ignorant.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 07:02 PM
do you think the three things are mutually exclusive?
* good fighter
* good written/research/communication skills.
* good budoka
picture the people you've met in training...someone could be the nicest amd most polite person you could ever train with, very humble, has full understanding of what the Martial way is all about and has a supurb dedication to their study....but happens to be a horrible fighter. are they a paper tiger?
or, imagine someone who is a great fighter with poor communication skills, lousy attitude and always manages to rub people the wrong way. are they budoka?
then, imagine someone with so-so fighting ability, a good researcher and communicator with excellent attitude. where do they fit into a sterotype?
I've been on the forum for 1 year, one thing I've noticed is stereotyping, while at times funny, is a waste of time other than for the humor.
The only way to really get an idea of where someone is at in their training is to train with them in person...irregardless of their online personna. It has to be looked at on a case by case and in person. The 'silent but deadly' vs. the 'loudmouth kuchibushi' forum stereotypes do not always hold true when compared to in person.
as far as using real names, I agree. but I also understand the right to privacy. one thing I can say is if someone chooses not to use their real name, then that exempts them from the right to [censored] about others also choosing not to do so. since that would be as hypocritical as someone pretending to be something they are not.
Different yet similar in hypocracy to a style-founder or 10-dan recognized and awarded by an ego-stroking soke-council yet making observations of ego-centricity of online forums... while the person's fighting ability may be great, the person's integrity gets put into question.
The fact is, the forum is NOT a mat. therefore it's worthless to try and communicate like we are in that environment. If someone insists on putting things in those terms in a forum, then they should spend all of their online time trying to meet up with people to train together, instead of writing people off as 'intellectual therefore paper tigers'.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 07:05 PM
Galen, you make some good arguments, but some flawed ones as well. I guess that where we split on issues is where reality goes past virtual attitudes and imagination.
Reaching level 7 on a computer game doesn't make you a "martial arts master", and when it comes to attitudes about techniques, I think I'll stick with experience and training instead of some internet attitude.
Your obvious disdain for anyone who has "years of experience" is clear, so it simply points out that you have no respect for learning lessons for real or for your elders who have already done so. You're part of the group that somehow assumes you're right just because you think it and can "google" some kind of information that backs you up.
This is exactly where Professor Cates case is proved. Martial arts are learned "through the body" not from conversation, and where your argument falls down is in your statement "might doesn't make right"... In the real world, good technique beats bull$*** every time. On discussion boards, you can say anything and if it's tolerated by the moderators, you get by with it. On the mats, the guy knocks you on your a$$, so you learn a lesson "the hard way".
Quote:
You cannot expect everyone to bow and scrape to you simply because you have been around for 100 years.
Well Slick, I can't remember expecting anyone to "bow and scrape" anything, but your manners show quite well. If you actually have any training, it also shows how well your teachers have taught you to respect others. You see, the "courtesy" in martial arts is "military courtesy", and people with higher rank do take the lead. If you want to discount experience, go to a doctor that learned his medicine on the internet and has no experience... I'm sure he'll fix you up "just fine".
What's being taught in martial arts schools today isn't much at all "martial arts". Many of the "masters" opened a school a week after getting their black belt, so their depth of knowledge of deadly skills is as shallow as your respect for long-term training.
Unlike your generation, learning and teaching true deadly skills required that you spend the time to mold your character to be able to handle them. What's going on today, is like handing out guns in nursery school. When somebody gets killed, the teacher will be "real sorry", and look for another student to replace the one that was unfortunate enough to be on the wrong end of something that they weren't ready to know about.
I could waste my time trying to convince you that you're wrong, but after all, this is just another internet board where you can identify yourself as anybody and b-s your way to any level of competent knowledge, so what's the point? Unfortunately, there are some true martial artists that want to discuss actual issues, and it is there that Professor Cates' frustration arises, along with many others.
That's why we still go to martial arts camps and seminars, and train in each other's dojos, mindful of the respect due those that have fought and taught, and dedicated themselves to something higher than their game score.
I keep a sign on my computer at work that says "no amount of artificial intelligence will replace natural stupidity". It clearly puts "internet logic and 'virtual martial arts'" in its real place in the great scheme of life.
As for "old guys" competing, take any of your competitors to one of the national camps and challenge any of the master instructors. That might be a lesson worth watching... Seems to me, the "old guys" are always the coaches... wonder why that is???
Posted by: Galen
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 08:00 PM
Quote:
Your obvious disdain for anyone who has "years of experience" is clear, so it simply points out that you have no respect for learning lessons for real or for your elders who have already done so.
The leap in logic you make here is quite beyond me, but just for sake of clarity…
I do not have disdain for those with experience. I have disdain for those who are idiots. I never said, anywhere, that everyone with experience is an idiot, or wrong. What I did say is, and listen close because you clearly have an issue understanding:
Having experience doesn’t necessarily make you right. It doesn’t necessarily make you wrong either! It all about how well you can communicate your point, at least in an internet forum.
Quote:
You're part of the group that somehow assumes you're right just because you think it and can "google" some kind of information that backs you up.
Once again, a leap in logic COMPLETELY unfounded by anything I have said. I see a trend here…
Quote:
This is exactly where Professor Cates case is proved. Martial arts are learned "through the body" not from conversation, and where your argument falls down is in your statement "might doesn't make right"... In the real world, good technique beats bull$*** every time. On discussion boards, you can say anything and if it's tolerated by the moderators, you get by with it. On the mats, the guy knocks you on your a$$, so you learn a lesson "the hard way".
Hold on here…are you actually saying that if you can beat me up, that makes you right?
Interesting perspective…if you truly believe that, please lets stop talking now, because you are so far in the dark ages, I am not sure you understand the language I am speaking anyway…
More to the point though, I already admitted that experience counts for a great deal!! I never disputed that! On the mat is one thing, on the internet is another. Both are forums for demonstrating skill; one physical, one intellectual. If you ‘knock me on my ass’, as you so eloquently say, then yes, I have learned a lesson. If you get knocked on your ass intellectually, you seem to fall back on ‘Yes but I can kick you ass’. A little on the Neanderthal side, dontcha think??
Quote:
Well Slick, I can't remember expecting anyone to "bow and scrape" anything, but your manners show quite well. If you actually have any training, it also shows how well your teachers have taught you to respect others. You see, the "courtesy" in martial arts is "military courtesy", and people with higher rank do take the lead. If you want to discount experience, go to a doctor that learned his medicine on the internet and has no experience... I'm sure he'll fix you up "just fine"
Slick! I like that!
Anyway, bow and scrape was just an expression, so don’t get too bent out of shape, however the fact that you expect a certain amount of respect based on your experience shows that you completely miss my point. You so far have made no logical case. All I have heard so far is, ‘I have experience, so you should respect me.’
Sorry ace. You have to do better than that. You want respect? Earn it. Don’t waste my time with how much experience you have. For all I know, you are full of crap. I respect clear, logical arguments. So far I haven’t seen much of that from you, at least in this thread.
If I actually have any training…well, I would be contracting myself if I fell back on my training history, so I wont. My whole point is that it doesn’t matter how much training I have. What matters is how well I present my argument, and at the end of the day, on the internet anyway, that is ALL that matters.
Quote:
What's being taught in martial arts schools today isn't much at all "martial arts". Many of the "masters" opened a school a week after getting their black belt, so their depth of knowledge of deadly skills is as shallow as your respect for long-term training.
ok. Fine. You are right. Here on the internet, I don’t give a damn about experience. And since we are being SO polite to each other, I don’t think I have seen a bigger name-dropper than you, friend, so do I respect you? Cant say I do. Most of what I have seen from you is ‘I trained with so-and-so’ and ‘I have this much experience’ blah blah blah. In this thread, I haven’t seen anything worth respecting.
Quote:
I could waste my time trying to convince you that you're wrong, but after all, this is just another internet board where you can identify yourself as anybody and b-s your way to any level of competent knowledge, so what's the point? Unfortunately, there are some true martial artists that want to discuss actual issues, and it is there that Professor Cates' frustration arises, along with many others. That's why we still go to martial arts camps and seminars, and train in each other's dojos, mindful of the respect due those that have fought and taught, and dedicated themselves to something higher than their game score.
You realize that the venom you are spitting at me is as easily applied to you, right? Just so ya know…
Quote:
As for "old guys" competing, take any of your competitors to one of the national camps and challenge any of the master instructors. That might be a lesson worth watching...
OK…just go on believing that…
Quote:
Seems to me, the "old guys" are always the coaches... wonder why that is???
well let me give you a hint…because they cant compete anymore!!!! I admit freely that the more experienced are FAR better teachers!! No argument, friend. But if I am not mistaken, your tune is changing a little here. Actually, its changing a lot. Ah well…
Let me state my points clearly here, so that there is no mistake.
1) simply because you are experienced (at least you claim you are) does not make you right.
2) Experience counts for a great deal in the real world, but on the internet, it counts for nothing. Here, only logical, reasonable presentation is what matters. If your ego cant take not being respected simply because you ‘claim’ to be experienced, then stay in your dojo where everyone knows (or at least believes) what you say is true.
I haven’t seen much from you here in the way of logical, well thought-out argument, but at the end of day, I am glad we had this exchange. If nothing else, it reinforced my original opinion of you.
Galen
Posted by: bobmax
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 08:50 PM
Quote:
Reaching level 7 on a computer game doesn't make you a "martial arts master", and when it comes to attitudes about techniques, I think I'll stick with experience and training instead of some internet attitude.
Great. Do so and get off the website.
Quote:
Your obvious disdain for anyone who has "years of experience" is clear, so it simply points out that you have no respect for learning lessons for real or for your elders who have already done so. You're part of the group that somehow assumes you're right just because you think it and can "google" some kind of information that backs you up.
Galen’s point, I think, is simply that “years of experience” is not all there is to it. Any ‘instructor’ who has operated any school for more than (insert number here) years has “years of experience” and there are indeed a heck of a lot of idiots (sorry, bad martial artists), with experience, running dojos out there. You must agree with that, don’t you think?
Quote:
This is exactly where Professor Cates case is proved. Martial arts are learned "through the body" not from conversation, and where your argument falls down is in your statement "might doesn't make right"... In the real world, good technique beats bull$*** every time. On discussion boards, you can say anything and if it's tolerated by the moderators, you get by with it. On the mats, the guy knocks you on your a$$, so you learn a lesson "the hard way".
You are assuming that because Galen is merely posting on the internet that he has not learned ‘through the body’ and that he lacks good technique. We don’t know anything about the guy and for all we know he COULD knock you and me on our ass. That’s his point; on this forum the ONLY thing that counts is sound argument.
Quote:
Well Slick, I can't remember expecting anyone to "bow and scrape" anything, but your manners show quite well. If you actually have any training, it also shows how well your teachers have taught you to respect others. You see, the "courtesy" in martial arts is "military courtesy", and people with higher rank do take the lead. If you want to discount experience, go to a doctor that learned his medicine on the internet and has no experience... I'm sure he'll fix you up "just fine".
Well Namecaller, respecting an instructor in their dojo is a far cry from respecting them in an internet post. If I attend another teacher’s class it is my job to shed ego completely while there, give myself utterly to what is taught that day, and judge later while in the comfort of my home. On the internet. Bowing and scraping is perfectly appropriate behaviour in class. This website allows a freer discussion.
Quote:
What's being taught in martial arts schools today isn't much at all "martial arts". Many of the "masters" opened a school a week after getting their black belt, so their depth of knowledge of deadly skills is as shallow as your respect for long-term training.
Oh my, there you go again assuming that the guy doesn’t repect long-term training. I don’t remember him saying that.
Quote:
I could waste my time trying to convince you that you're wrong, but after all, this is just another internet board where you can identify yourself as anybody and b-s your way to any level of competent knowledge, so what's the point?
Sorry, what did you say? “B-s your way to any level of competent knowledge”? That’s precisely what you CAN’T b-s your way to. Galen’s point again.
Posted by: ScottO
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 09:13 PM
The internet shouldn't be a place for negativity when you want to talk about your passion or hobbies. It's a great way to kill them.
If I ever come across a site or person on a site that puts me, my art, my other passions down, I'll simply not come back here again, you can bet on that. I don't know why Black Belts are getting offended....you're a Black Belt meaning that you must have (hopefully) gained SOME faith in your art and not let people put it down so easily and control your mind to believe less in your art. If you are one of those easily manipulated people, get off the site and don't stop training. I would hate to have negativity in my mind about my Martial Art, my music, myself. If this happens to you, get off and regain your touch.
You do have control over this, you know.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 09:17 PM
"The Superior Man turns his attention to himself and molds his character."
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 09:21 PM
Folks -
Let's refocus the argument here. I think that Prof. Cates was really talking about internet blowhards that lack
any real-world skill. He is probably refering to folks that claim things like, say.....punching trees, defeating other masters, jumping off second-story buildings, etc (when they actually can't).
I know that I can generally get a pretty good sense of when someone knows what they are talking about here or not. Ego and knowledge are not always proportionate - you can have lots of one and not the other, or lots of both. Time will usually tell which.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 09:34 PM
Quote:
Hold on here…are you actually saying that if you can beat me up, that makes you right?
Talk about a leap of logic... The point was that you can say anything on an internet board, but if you say that same thing on the mat training with someone, you may carry your teeth home in a bag. It has nothing to do with "being right" in any way, shape, or form.
Quote:
The fact that you expect a certain amount of respect based on your experience shows that you completely miss my point.
No, you seem to discount anything learned from experience and replace it with your beliefs. You can't have it both ways, however. You say you have respect for experience, and then discount the information, and call it name dropping if I name the source. Would you feel better if I just quoted something they might have written in one of their books? You apparently have a problem with my acquaintences, and I wouldn't trade 10 minutes of the time I've spent training with them for any accolades from you or the people on this board. Sorry, you come in 2nd every time on that.
Quote:
You realize that the venom you are spitting at me is as easily applied to you, right? Just so ya know…
The point of this thread was to show that the internet boards are nothing but venom pools. Professor Cates recognized that a level of disrespect for pioneers in American martial arts exists with anonymous snipers, and with little if any of the discipline, knowledge, or conduct that is imbedded in martial arts training.
Quote:
Both are forums for demonstrating skill; one physical, one intellectual.
Oh, so "internet board posters" are now "intellectuals"? Give me a break... or better yet, learn to use a spell checker...
Quote:
I haven’t seen much from you here in the way of logical, well thought-out argument, but at the end of day, I am glad we had this exchange. If nothing else, it reinforced my original opinion of you.
The more you say, the more you prove Professor Cate's point.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 09:41 PM
Low punch, Ed... but effective...
You have to remember I'm under stress...
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 09:46 PM
Quote by wristtwister -
Quote:
The point of this thread was to show that the internet boards are nothing but venom pools.
I can see where people get that impression. I see sites like this more as schools (elementary schools, LOL ). Learning can go on, but with all the screaming, gum chewing, spitballs and rude noises that happen when beginners and experts of different ages get together.
Joss made a really good point in that words will only hurt you if you let them. I have had my art(s) and myself personally slagged here several times. But always by folks I could care less about. So, in the end......meh.
I do wonder if many high ranking people share the "venom pool" view because we (lower ranks) have little to offer you besides questions.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 10:08 PM
I was hoping you saw the hint of humor. I got my 'intellectual' wise-ass kicked when I first came on here...some of the insults really hit dangerously close to home and got me thinking. What I found is, we can never go wrong posting truthfully and without agenda....without ego is even harder to do. If others don't even try to post with any of those virtues, then they deserve anywhere between being ignored to a severe roasting....depending on what one is in the mood for that day.
That aside, I know you must be going thru a rough time, I hope your family is doing as well as possible.
Posted by: Galen
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 10:16 PM
Quote:
Oh, so "internet board posters" are now "intellectuals"? Give me a break... or better yet, learn to use a spell checker...
To start with, you really do need to start reading before you post. I defy you to state where exactly I said this. Let me save you the time.
NO WHERE.
Secondly, I think we have both made our points, however successfully (or unsuccessfully) is for the general population to decide, so I am dropping the matter here.
However, if the best you can do it attack my spelling then I think I can safely say I have you on the ropes. And by the way, ‘ya’ and ‘dontcha’, the only words in my post spelled incorrectly, were spelled that way on purpose.
Too funny.
G
Posted by: Just1Mike
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 10:50 PM
Hi folks,
I agree with the professor that these things do indeed occur. However I don't see why he would let himself be so upset by it. What good is someones opinion of you going to do if you ever need to use your training? You'll live or die depending on weather or not someone in Kookamonga thinks you're good? I hope not. The internet is everyones watering hole, and the tigers have to share it with an occasional baboon. That's just the way it is I guess. Someone says you suck, traditional martial arts suck, The trainings outdated, Kata is worthless so they're not going to waste they're time doing it. Their training is effected, Not yours. What's the difference if they are in fact, knowledgable, experienced people or Google intoxicated info freaks? If what they post is useful, use it. Some troublemakers hide behind annonymous names or codes on the internet,and in real life hide behind the law. They're cowards and I suppose they can't rest till the whole world knows it. So be it.
Good Luck!
Mike
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/19/06 10:55 PM
Good perspective Mike...
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/21/06 10:45 AM
Let's lighten up a little.
Firstly, I avoid any person or institution that can't laugh at themselves.
Secondly, in any endeavor there are a few who are very good, more that are pretty good, many more who haven't got it. Then there are the morons (and the internet is a great place to see them) who look ridiculous if they even try.
I'm just hoping the bald man with the red beard has NO training, and put the video together as a joke.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: Professor Cates "nails it" - 04/21/06 11:32 AM
Played down the center with Galen. Very well stated.
It is what it is.