Boxing vs Martial Arts

Does anyone prefer boxing over martial arts. If so y? Me personaly prefer boxing with the concept of martial arts in mind while fighting. What i mean is boxers in general dont know anything but boxing, but someone who knows both could use boxing for strikes and use countering from martial arts such as chin-na, aikido and grappling. Basically boxing has less openings compared to that of taekwondo.

A couple of my sparring partners are bb in traditional arts. But when they spar they both use western boxing for their offensive hand work. Because of its simplicity and effectivenss. Though they would never trade their MA training for boxing training. I think it is up to the individual nartial artist to decide for them selves what works and what doesn't.,

Boxing is a HUGE part of my training for street self defense. I mean to say, if you're NOT training boxing, you're leaving a critically important element out. The reason is because you have to TRAIN!!! Training in boxing teaches some of the best hand skills there is, and, the most economical defense to same. I also feel that boxing is a martial art. The art of boxing, is different than the sport of boxing. Try looking at some of old time boxing's "dirty tactics" and you'll realize that it has quite a lot to offer anyone intested in self-preservation.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Boxing is a HUGE part of my training for street self defense. I mean to say, if you're NOT training boxing, you're leaving a critically important element out. The reason is because you have to TRAIN!!! Training in boxing teaches some of the best hand skills there is, and, the most economical defense to same. I also feel that boxing is a martial art. The art of boxing, is different than the sport of boxing. Try looking at some of old time boxing's "dirty tactics" and you'll realize that it has quite a lot to offer anyone intested in self-preservation.


-John[/QUOTE]

The footwork of boxing and the vertical fist of bareknuckle fighters is very good for martial arts. But as to covering up as a defense, or lack of pulling someone off balance and close range power needs leverage and angle compared to wing chun punches. Boxing lack real close range power punch compared to non-telegraphic martial punches, needs certain distance and range to be effective. For mobility yes as their are a few punches that add "circular power to linear strikes" i.e. sucker punch and rear cross. Training methods of conditioning and skipping, bag, speedbag and focus gloves perfect for martial arts cross training. Boxing gloves a bit too cumbersome for martial arts strikes, open fingered golves and lighter ones much better.
http://www.beauproductions.com/ali/index1.htm

Punch needs to land and counters the punch that lands first, see ali the master to knocking out "power punches" Sonny liston, George foreman the list can go on but enought said.
Boxing is not a complete martial art. It does not claim to be.

Boxers are generally the best at what they do -- striking at punching range -- but this is by no means the alpha and the omega of fighting as a whole. Beyond this, the ability of someone who trains in boxing to do well as a fighter in the street depends on a number of other things as well.

If you train in boxing, your stance must be modified to take into account other things. A person with boxing training who intends to really fight should also be trained and prepared to sprawl against a shooter, block and avoid leg kicks, protect his groin, learn good tie-up skills and how to dominate this range, etc. etc.

He should also know how to kick, grapple, elbow, knee, rip, gouge, and how to use these and other tactics as means to other ends, etc.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
Boxing lack real close range power punch, [This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-27-2004).][/QUOTE]

bolox

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
Boxing lack real close range power punch, needs certain distance and range to be effective. [/QUOTE]

Sorry Pete,

Total Garbage.

Boxers are some of the hardest hitters around, at any range they punch at.

It's all they do, they train for it, and they're damn good at it.

JohnL

Agreed. I believe in a fight, the one who can box the best will generally win the fight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
Boxing lack real close range power punch, needs certain distance and range to be effective.[/QUOTE]

Huh? So why are all those gentleman falling when their opponent uppercuts their jaw? They must be taking dives then?

I have a background in Wing Chun and Mantis, which both have a short distance straight punch that boxers rarely use, if ever. In fact we thrive on close quarter combat. But I have been trained to be wary of boxers as they have a whole slew of weapons for clinching, entering the clinch, and exiting the clinch.

You might do better studying some of the older boxing matches that weren't so rule-laden, or visiting some of the trainers that provide instruction for the street. It's very enlightening.

Isn't boxing a martial art?

Skillz...pioneers of Full contact karate cross trained with boxers to create Full contact karate or kickboxing.

I think it's a good art have.

If Karatekas and Kung Fu artists trained like boxers they would be awesome.

[This message has been edited by Lokkan-Do (edited 05-28-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
Boxing lack real close range power punch, needs certain distance and range to be effective.[/QUOTE]

It's a beautiful spectacle watching a "good" boxer at work, the power that is released for a kidney shot makes grown TOUGH men moan with pain and can make you piss blood! Close range and powerful punching, the most powerful, is what boxing is about. Dont you think if boxers knew that there were other punches that are more powerful than what "boxing" has to offer then they'd most definately take them and use them.... they dont, why? because boxing hand work is the best there is. full stop. You can say what you want about 1" punching and all this malakas.... Boxing has science behind each hit, it has momentum and of course the same technique applied to the 1" punch is applied to a boxing punch, do you think they just use brute force the entire time they punch? of course not, they relax their whole body and on impact tense up thus releasing the power... similar to Thaiboxing application.


[QUOTE]For mobility yes as their are a few punches that add "circular power to linear strikes" i.e. sucker punch and rear cross. [/QUOTE] Linear strikes, damn man, I hear it all the time, Muay Thai is too circular!! so then why do boxers and Thaiboxers (Mixed Martial art fighters) alkways seem to be the best fighters there, most of the techniques are circular.


[QUOTE]Boxing gloves a bit too cumbersome for martial arts strikes, open fingered golves and lighter ones much better.
[/QUOTE]

Then just take the damn gloves off! you dont say "hey man please wait till i put on some gloves before I hit you", haha, you just hit him!

I have seen cracked eye sockets, very ugly looking smashed up faces. Damn a good boxer has an incredible skill behind him that should be respected and feared because until you have either been knocked out by or fought a good "boxer" you havnt an f'ing clue about it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkillZ:
Does anyone prefer boxing over martial arts. If so y? Me personaly prefer boxing with the concept of martial arts in mind while fighting. What i mean is boxers in general dont know anything but boxing, but someone who knows both could use boxing for strikes and use countering from martial arts such as chin-na, aikido and grappling. Basically boxing has less openings compared to that of taekwondo.[/QUOTE]


Well, boxing is a striking art. Boxing has handwork that is second to none. Training in boxing can't hurt your martial arts career, it can only herlp it.

Train hard bjjskn

I posted this a while ago on another thread:

If MA trained like boxers then they would be awesome.
Unfortunately only some do.

Boxing training is generally (NOT always)is of a higher standard. All competitive boxers have to train realisticaly with the correct combination of skill and conditioning training for it to work in competition.

MA don't HAVE to pressure test. So they don't HAVE to train very hard/well. You turn up stand in lines and your a MA.

If a boxer turns up to the gym and gets in the ring - he had better be able to defend himself. or else!

In general, the common factors involved in Training and Competition (which is a relatively good simulant of 'fighting'), are often found in a higher amount in most boxing gyms, than the common factors involved in Training and Real Fighting in most dojos. Thats not necessarily a good or bad thing - its just the way things are. Which often means the boxer will woop the MA arse. Having said that, the MA - pressure tested and properly trained - has much more options open to him, and theoretically SHOULD take the boxer.

Al

boxers flat out best punchers there are.
not even debateable.
i;ve boxed, got two golden glove boxers
in family.
i'll not knock boxers, not to mention
when their preping for a fight it's gruelling their work outs.

There are only three weaknesses of boxers that I can think of. 1 They are used to wearing gloves so their punch is slightly different than a bare knuckle punch 2. They are used to only fighting 3 minutes they should fade 5 minutes into a fight. 3. they are not used to being on the ground. I think though that if you study boxing and then practice a little bare knuckle punching that is all the punching you will ever need.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
There are only three weaknesses of boxers that I can think of. 1 They are used to wearing gloves so their punch is slightly different than a bare knuckle punch 2. They are used to only fighting 3 minutes they should fade 5 minutes into a fight. 3. they are not used to being on the ground. I think though that if you study boxing and then practice a little bare knuckle punching that is all the punching you will ever need.[/QUOTE]

I puch same with or with out gloves
"fast hard and with bad entenions"
Most street fights one on one usually
not always but usually lucky to go 3 seconds
let alone 3 minutes think about it.
and number 3 i'm not implying boxing is complete in it's self ... of course other things have to be added.. i'm talking strictly punching. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by badmamajama:
I puch same with or with out gloves
"fast hard and with bad entenions"
Most street fights one on one usually
not always but usually lucky to go 3 seconds
let alone 3 minutes think about it.
and number 3 i'm not implying boxing is complete in it's self ... of course other things have to be added.. i'm talking strictly punching. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

I was saying it was good I boxed from the time I was in 1st grade till I finished High School (I went to Catholic School they always had boxing teams). My dad made me quit when I went to college When I started Karate as a Sophomore in High school my punches were already good, the biggest critique I got from the instructors was that I was hitting too hard and I needed more control. I still cant figure out how you can hit too hard, but also they had quicker footwork because they were going for light contact not heavy contact so my footwork improved from Karate training. They also said I needed more sharpness, my punches were heavy but they weren't sharp.



[This message has been edited by WADO (edited 05-28-2004).]

boxing is hands down, the most devastating of fighting arts if you are restricted to hands only. its not a martial art as it had no application in warfare such as muay thai or aikido etc, but that is just an issue of semantics.

regarding the idiotic comment about lack of short distance weapons; have you ever heard of an upper cut or kidney punch? just ask mike tyson to show you.

the detraction with boxing and all fighting arts where gloves are used, such as muay thai, is that the training revolves around gloves and hence, people can get used to their application. case in point, blocking using a straight forearm block is very effective aginast a 10oz glove or larger, but when using the same block against a bare fist, your block has to be much tighter. if youre not used to doing this then many punches will slip through. also, as we use wraps and gloves, we dont focus so much on striking with the 1st 2 knuckles. this is why you often see boxers or thai boxers who get broken hands when in street fights because they throw out their full power punches but inadvertently strike with the outside part of their fist on contact.

finally, conditionaing in boxing as in all ring sports is beyond reproach. if you cant last the rounds then youre dead...this isnt point fighting where you stop and start on contact.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:
its not a martial art as it had no application in warfare such as muay thai or aikido etc, but that is just an issue of semantics.
[/QUOTE]

What warring army was taught Aikido?

I think Muay Thai comes from krabi krabong (with Krabi Krabong being the "martial" form). So by your definition, Muay Thai isn't a martial art either.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
But as to covering up as a defense, or lack of pulling someone off balance and close range power. Boxing lack real close range power punch, needs certain distance and range to be effective. [/QUOTE]


Ah...I don't find this true at all. The uppercut and short hooks are knock-out shots.

Covering for defense isn't good? Compared to what? Reaching out? Nah. Can't agree with you on this. State some reasons why you feel the opposite.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:

Boxing gloves a bit too cumbersome for martial arts strikes, open fingered golves and lighter ones much better.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, definitely use MMA gloves for a lot of your work. The problem with that is the greater chance of injury when going hard. That's why using the boxing glove is mandatory.

Now, I don't think that boxing by itself is complete. You definitely have to add the clinching game with it (ie., Greco-Roman/Muay Thai).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Sorry Pete,

Total Garbage.

Boxers are some of the hardest hitters around, at any range they punch at.

It's all they do, they train for it, and they're damn good at it.

JohnL[/QUOTE]
Ali vs sonny liston
George foreman thriller in manilla. You mean that sonny liston and george foreman were able to kidney punch ali, or land a clean shot. Where were so called power shots superior tactics always wins. The close range shots needs drawing back the hands for leverage and angles uppercuts only works if the chin is left unguarded by hand
reflex. Outside the right power shot may look impressive but against a moving and intelligent fighter, like ali the proof is the opposite.

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John_C:
What warring army was taught Aikido?

[/QUOTE]


Answer: The one that lost [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Sorry Pete,

Total Garbage.

Boxers are some of the hardest hitters around, at any range they punch at.

It's all they do, they train for it, and they're damn good at it.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

Hardest hitters need punch to land and counters are often beaten to the punch, just like martial arts intercepting the attack.

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John_C:
What warring army was taught Aikido?

I think Muay Thai comes from krabi krabong (with Krabi Krabong being the "martial" form). So by your definition, Muay Thai isn't a martial art either.[/QUOTE]

Ali vs sonny liston
George foreman thriller in manilla. You mean that sonny liston and george foreman were able to kidney punch ali, or land a clean shot. Where were so called power shots superior tactics always wins. The close range shots needs drawing the hand back to get leverage and angle, upper cuts only works if chin is left unguarded by reflex of the rear hand, boxing is a science and time and time again "big punches that do not land or looks good outside the ring is different from a moving fighting opponent".

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

Superior tactics always wins, where is the uppercuts or hooks that knocks out ali, liston vs ali. George foreman vs ali thriller in manilla. Needs to land punch and counters "beaten to the punch".
http://www.beauproductions.com/ali/index1.htm

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

how many diffrent weapons does a boxer have? now how many does a martial artist have? in the ring, boxing may win (all depends on the fighter)but when it comes to the street we have too many weapons at our disposal i.e. nukite,palmstrikes,elbow,head, feet, knee, even one finger or toe can be a weapon. But boxing is a great teacher as any art.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gojuwarrior1:
how many diffrent weapons does a boxer have? now how many does a martial artist have? in the ring, boxing may win (all depends on the fighter)but when it comes to the street we have too many weapons at our disposal i.e. nukite,palmstrikes,elbow,head, feet, knee, even one finger or toe can be a weapon. But boxing is a great teacher as any art.[/QUOTE]

The boxing legends have left behind footwork, tactics boxing is as good as the tactics that is used. Against martial arts,footwork,and superior know how of tactics always wins. Yes the weapons of martial are more but how it reaches and it,s effect, boxing and martial art have similiar end result, but the street needs reflex,balance, and better footwork that the average boxer or timing of a slugger. Hit first hit hard couples of seconds all that is needed, no wearing the opponent down over 15 rounds.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gojuwarrior1:
how many diffrent weapons does a boxer have? now how many does a martial artist have? in the ring, boxing may win (all depends on the fighter)but when it comes to the street we have too many weapons at our disposal i.e. nukite,palmstrikes,elbow,head, feet, knee, even one finger or toe can be a weapon. But boxing is a great teacher as any art.[/QUOTE]


What you have at the END of your arm is irrelevent. The boxer has all of those tools as well, should he decide to open his hand and jab with the fingers into the eyes, palm jab using the uppercut mechanics, etc., etc. Trust me, the boxer knows how to use his abilities on the street. Not only that, he understands the spirit of fighting MUCH more than many martial artists do that DON'T fight.

I understand your point, but you have to understand also that a boxer simply doesn't NEED that many offensive tools because he is so proficient with what he already has at his disposal.

Again, and like I always say, boxing isn't complete. But, from the stand-up perspective, it had BETTER be where you START!

-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
The boxing legends have left behind footwork, tactics boxing is as good as the tactics that is used. Against martial arts,footwork,and superior know how of tactics always wins. Yes the weapons of martial are more but how it reaches and it,s effect, boxing and martial art have similiar end result, but the street needs reflex,balance, and better footwork that the average boxer or timing of a slugger. Hit first hit hard couples of seconds all that is needed, no wearing the opponent down over 15 rounds.[/QUOTE]


Pete, this post of your's shows a complete and total misunderstanding of fundamental boxing.


Thanks!


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Pete, this post of your's shows a complete and total misunderstanding of fundamental boxing.


Thanks!
So what is your understanding as to what is the fundamental of boxing. We are talking about martial against boxing, where any thing goes.


-John

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SkillZ:
Does anyone prefer boxing over martial arts. If so y? Me personaly prefer boxing with the concept of martial arts in mind while fighting. What i mean is boxers in general dont know anything but boxing, but someone who knows both could use boxing for strikes and use countering from martial arts such as chin-na, aikido and grappling. Basically boxing has less openings compared to that of taekwondo.[/QUOTE]Boxing is a MA,It's just not a selfdefense art. ALso,I would hane to say that the boxers punch is an incorrect punch.& One of the reasons,is because the positioning of the thumb.In other words, If you're to use a boxers punch during a streetfigh, You could injure your thumb & thus lose the fight or worse. ________________________________________PS You can't tape up your hands during a streetfight. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Guys, a fight on teh street or in the ring is really not that different. As I have said countless times before what will work in a ring will work outside it. Thats it, so stop making stupid excuses and trying to defend whatever the hell it is you're trying to defend by saying "it wont work on the street", if it works with full contact fighting in a ring with a referee, doctors at ring side and rounds then it will work outside the ring without rounds, referee and doctors at ring side, this is with or without ropes! Dont you get it, fighting is fighting no matter where it takes place the only difference is "street" is more dangerous, thats really it, no if's or buts, its simply a case of there being no rules, to think a pro ring fighter doesnt realise that he isnt fighting in the ring when fighting on the street is stupid and very ignorant, thinking he will be "used" to fighting so much in teh ring that when it comes down to it on the street he wont know what to do is laughable, really it is, it's amazing people think that these very tough ring fighters are not very tough when it comes to fighting without rules. haha, its mindblowing to think that they will only use what they use in the ring when fighting on the street....

...catch a grip and wake up to the reality of fighting. If you dont fight then you are at a very big disadvantage when faced with a real fighter. No matter what you know and how many belts you have or point tournements you've won or how good you are in teh gym when its sparring time, if you are faced with an Amatuer Boxer I'd put my money on the amatuer boxer, they are hard as nails and know exactly how to fell a guy by simply using his fists, take him to the ground, do whatever you want but if you aint used to fighting then yer up s**t creek! He is so familiar with fighting that to be honest he will have fun with you and probably think you're insane when you stand and do nothing or take him down to the ground and again do nothing while he blatters you.... believe it, if you havnt got the experience, and I will tell you that almost all boxers do have fight experience unlike martial artists, you are technically a useless fighter, take that as an insult but thats the realities of fighting. With no fight experience you will do almost everything you have been trained not to do or a wall will come around your eyes, you will just be fighting with your nerves and uncontrolled technique, missing and being hit by the more experienced fighter at hand.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Yes, definitely use MMA gloves for a lot of your work. The problem with that is the greater chance of injury when going hard. That's why using the boxing glove is mandatory.

Now, I don't think that boxing by itself is complete. You definitely have to add the clinching game with it (ie., Greco-Roman/Muay Thai).

[/QUOTE]

boxing has similiar tactics to martial arts "look for openening" the difference is that boxers learn to take a punch, some martial artist can learn from this. The circular footwork and method of delivery is different, so a good boxer can outsmart a martial artist. Can punch the leg, punch on the arm depends how boxer uses boxing skills.
Depends on how boxer uses superior tactics to land punches and how martial artist uses superior tactics regarding the style of boxer. Generally I think boxers have better timing and defenses against most martial arts but not all.

MuayThai makes a great point in that, ALL of the techniques that you use in the ring, will work on the street. That ISN'T always the case with the "street" stuff that people seem to always emphasize.

Think about it this way, if you practice things you can't actually practice (meaning, due to their "theoretical danger" you cannot try them for real against your partner), how do you know for sure that they're going to work like you think they will? The answer is, you CAN'T be sure.

You CAN be sure that your ring skills will work for you however. The difference is your strategy, not your tactics. It's hard to fathom that more people don't realize this now.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Answer: The one that lost [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I shouldn't laugh but...

LOL [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quote of the week there, my friend [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:
Boxing is a MA,It's just not a selfdefense art.
[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, no x-blocks or finger jabs, how could it be?
[QUOTE]
In other words, If you're to use a boxers punch during a streetfigh, You could injure your thumb & thus lose the fight or worse. [/QUOTE]
How so?

The boxer's punch has the thumb over the index & middle finger, between 2nd & 1st knuckles, on the outside of the fist. It seems pretty biomechanically sound to me. In that respect, it's no different to the BKB pugilist's fist.

[QUOTE]PS You can't tape up your hands during a streetfight. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Can't kick your shoes off and put a gi on neither, genius. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John_C:
Can't kick your shoes off and put a gi on neither, genius. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John_C:
Can't kick your shoes off and put a gi on neither, genius. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

Could use the skipping rope tie the martial artist up, throw a medicine ball, distraction, take your boxing gloves out of bag, uh bad idea, gum sheilds, well forget those welcome to street boxing. Groin protectors, ouch try stuffing those down your jeans while defending your self.

[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).]

Oh, FFS!!!

Fighting is fighting. Everything else isn't.

Some things share common factors with fighting, some things don't.

Some things share more common factors with fighting then other things.

EVERYONE DISAGREES. Thats because (and I make no exceptions here), we are all nobheads who log onto a forum to TALK about fighting.

damn.

Alec (pissed off and tired)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
Could use the skipping rope tie the martial artist up, throw a medicine ball, distraction, take your boxing gloves out of bag, uh bad idea, gum sheilds, well forget those welcome to street boxing. Groin protectors, ouch try stuffing those down your jeans while defending your self.
[/QUOTE]

Once again pete, I have no idea what message you're attempting to communicate.

Are you saying boxers need gear to fight, like Isshin was?

You're kidding yourself, I think, although I wouldn't encourage you to test the theory out.

Typically, Isshin tosses out an unargued one liner as his "point", and my gi comment is simply a rejoinder to that to point out the facility of what he's saying.

Frankly I was still reeling from the "boxing punches damage your thumbs" revelation at the time.

This post is really more for a sport vs. street debate, but I find that it parallels the discussion here to some extent, so I'm posting it anyway. Sue me.

About half of the people get it and (oddly enough), half don't. The half that don't are the same folks who love the mystery of the martial arts and, the romance of "street fighting". They pretend to train because their arts are just too deadly to spar with. They "know" (somehow they know) that they can KILL a man with just a few blows.

Not that THEY'VE ever done it, but that's what they've been TOLD (because as you know, their master's, master's, master's, master's, master did it once several hundred years ago). These folks know that THEIR art is the ONLY true art for the "street"! (By GOD!)


But for those who enjoy the tough, demanding, and athletic nature of "sportive" training, nothing really needs to be said. You already realize that self-defense is a by-product of your training and wouldn't trade it for anything. It is through the attributes that you develop through this training, that you become the toughened, spiritually strong warriors of what the martial arts are all about. This type of training IS Budo, in motion and you are Budo personified.

YOU folks realize that the majority of the people who speak of "street fighting" this, and "combat" that, aren't the ones who actually do any fighting -- they're too busy training those tactics which are "TOO DANGEROUS" to use during sparring and competition. You also realize that they are the LEAST of all the people that you need ever worry about encountering on the proverbial "street"! Those are the guys who would most likely feel the pulse of cowardice during the initial moments of a hostile situation.

The people who need to be highly respected, are the ones who sweat, bleed, and push themselves to the brink of exhaustion. They punch and get punched in return, suffering the occasional blackened eye, or bloody lip in the process. They are the people who wrestle to submission, against equally toughened men and women attempting to fight back and execute the exact same tactics as their opponents. They LOSE more often than they win many times in these 'battles' before their skills become perfected through use.

These people KNOW pain, and know physical and mental exhaustion. They know about sore muscles. They learn through these trials by fire, how to maintain their poise during the periods where their opponents have the momentum. Thus, they learn to ride the storm out, knowing how to come back and turn the tide in their favor. This only comes through experience. This comes from the school of hard knocks.

All these things will NEVER be present with those who merely PRETEND to train and fight. Those are the people who train in pretend martial arts. These people train in the DEADLIEST of tactics. They know how to rip out eyes, pull hair, bite through flesh, kick out knees and slam the groin. Or at least they talk like they do (talking being SO much easier to do than actually performing). Some even know how to easily knock people out by merely touching them – the more skilled among them being able to do so even at a DISTANCE!

Those folks can spew forth whatever words they want to about 'combat sport' guys, but they will ALWAYS come up short in one critical area; actual FIGHT EXPERIENCE.

Think of the thousands of hours I can rack up by rolling, boxing and doing vale tudo! Experience against a fully resisting human is what is truly important with regard to fighting ability anyway. If you think you can get this experience by PRETENDING to fight with your partners, you're only kidding yourselves, not us.

And that is no problem to me, or to any OTHER sport guy as well I'm sure. Go right ahead folks, pretend all you want.

Ask yourself if you truly believe all that pretending is going to help you against an athletic, conditioned and experienced combat sport guy. If you STILL believe that, get into the ring or on the mats with one. Go for a quick round and see if you can "hang" with one for 30 seconds before you are knocked out or submitted. THEN come back and tell us that your "pretend" training will be of benefit!


-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-29-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
This post is really more for a sport vs. street debate, but I find that it parallels the discussion here to some extent, so I'm posting it anyway. Sue me.

About half of the people get it and (oddly enough), half don't. The half that don't are the same folks who love the mystery of the martial arts and, the romance of "street fighting". They pretend to train because their arts are just too deadly to spar with. They "know" (somehow they know) that they can KILL a man with just a few blows.

Not that THEY'VE ever done it, but that's what they've been TOLD (because as you know, their master's, master's, master's, master's, master did it once several hundred years ago). These folks know that THEIR art is the ONLY true art for the "street"! (By GOD!)


But for those who enjoy the tough, demanding, and athletic nature of "sportive" training, nothing really needs to be said. You already realize that self-defense is a by-product of your training and wouldn't trade it for anything. It is through the attributes that you develop through this training, that you become the toughened, spiritually strong warriors of what the martial arts are all about. This type of training IS Budo, in motion and you are Budo personified.

YOU folks realize that the majority of the people who speak of "street fighting" this, and "combat" that, aren't the ones who actually do any fighting -- they're too busy training those tactics which are "TOO DANGEROUS" to use during sparring and competition. You also realize that they are the LEAST of all the people that you need ever worry about encountering on the proverbial "street"! Those are the guys who would most likely feel the pulse of cowardice during the initial moments of a hostile situation.

The people who need to be highly respected, are the ones who sweat, bleed, and push themselves to the brink of exhaustion. They punch and get punched in return, suffering the occasional blackened eye, or bloody lip in the process. They are the people who wrestle to submission, against equally toughened men and women attempting to fight back and execute the exact same tactics as their opponents. They LOSE more often than they win many times in these 'battles' before their skills become perfected through use.

These people KNOW pain, and know physical and mental exhaustion. They know about sore muscles. They learn through these trials by fire, how to maintain their poise during the periods where their opponents have the momentum. Thus, they learn to ride the storm out, knowing how to come back and turn the tide in their favor. This only comes through experience. This comes from the school of hard knocks.

All these things will NEVER be present with those who merely PRETEND to train and fight. Those are the people who train in pretend martial arts. These people train in the DEADLIEST of tactics. They know how to rip out eyes, pull hair, bite through flesh, kick out knees and slam the groin. Or at least they talk like they do (talking being SO much easier to do than actually performing). Some even know how to easily knock people out by merely touching them – the more skilled among them being able to do so even at a DISTANCE!

Those folks can spew forth whatever words they want to about 'combat sport' guys, but they will ALWAYS come up short in one critical area; actual FIGHT EXPERIENCE.

Think of the thousands of hours I can rack up by rolling, boxing and doing vale tudo! Experience against a fully resisting human is what is truly important with regard to fighting ability anyway. If you think you can get this experience by PRETENDING to fight with your partners, you're only kidding yourselves, not us.

And that is no problem to me, or to any OTHER sport guy as well I'm sure. Go right ahead folks, pretend all you want.

Ask yourself if you truly believe all that pretending is going to help you against an athletic, conditioned and experienced combat sport guy. If you STILL believe that, get into the ring or on the mats with one. Go for a quick round and see if you can "hang" with one for 30 seconds before you are knocked out or submitted. THEN come back and tell us that your "pretend" training will be of benefit!


-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-29-2004).][/QUOTE]

You certainly got it as to sueing you well I give you some credit tell it like it is. Very long post but very enjoyable hope others take note and adjust training methods.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
This post is really more for a sport vs. street debate, but I find that it parallels the discussion here to some extent, so I'm posting it anyway. Sue me.

About half of the people get it and (oddly enough), half don't. The half that don't are the same folks who love the mystery of the martial arts and, the romance of "street fighting". They pretend to train because their arts are just too deadly to spar with. They "know" (somehow they know) that they can KILL a man with just a few blows.

Not that THEY'VE ever done it, but that's what they've been TOLD (because as you know, their master's, master's, master's, master's, master did it once several hundred years ago). These folks know that THEIR art is the ONLY true art for the "street"! (By GOD!)


But for those who enjoy the tough, demanding, and athletic nature of "sportive" training, nothing really needs to be said. You already realize that self-defense is a by-product of your training and wouldn't trade it for anything. It is through the attributes that you develop through this training, that you become the toughened, spiritually strong warriors of what the martial arts are all about. This type of training IS Budo, in motion and you are Budo personified.

YOU folks realize that the majority of the people who speak of "street fighting" this, and "combat" that, aren't the ones who actually do any fighting -- they're too busy training those tactics which are "TOO DANGEROUS" to use during sparring and competition. You also realize that they are the LEAST of all the people that you need ever worry about encountering on the proverbial "street"! Those are the guys who would most likely feel the pulse of cowardice during the initial moments of a hostile situation.

The people who need to be highly respected, are the ones who sweat, bleed, and push themselves to the brink of exhaustion. They punch and get punched in return, suffering the occasional blackened eye, or bloody lip in the process. They are the people who wrestle to submission, against equally toughened men and women attempting to fight back and execute the exact same tactics as their opponents. They LOSE more often than they win many times in these 'battles' before their skills become perfected through use.

These people KNOW pain, and know physical and mental exhaustion. They know about sore muscles. They learn through these trials by fire, how to maintain their poise during the periods where their opponents have the momentum. Thus, they learn to ride the storm out, knowing how to come back and turn the tide in their favor. This only comes through experience. This comes from the school of hard knocks.

All these things will NEVER be present with those who merely PRETEND to train and fight. Those are the people who train in pretend martial arts. These people train in the DEADLIEST of tactics. They know how to rip out eyes, pull hair, bite through flesh, kick out knees and slam the groin. Or at least they talk like they do (talking being SO much easier to do than actually performing). Some even know how to easily knock people out by merely touching them – the more skilled among them being able to do so even at a DISTANCE!

Those folks can spew forth whatever words they want to about 'combat sport' guys, but they will ALWAYS come up short in one critical area; actual FIGHT EXPERIENCE.

Think of the thousands of hours I can rack up by rolling, boxing and doing vale tudo! Experience against a fully resisting human is what is truly important with regard to fighting ability anyway. If you think you can get this experience by PRETENDING to fight with your partners, you're only kidding yourselves, not us.

And that is no problem to me, or to any OTHER sport guy as well I'm sure. Go right ahead folks, pretend all you want.

Ask yourself if you truly believe all that pretending is going to help you against an athletic, conditioned and experienced combat sport guy. If you STILL believe that, get into the ring or on the mats with one. Go for a quick round and see if you can "hang" with one for 30 seconds before you are knocked out or submitted. THEN come back and tell us that your "pretend" training will be of benefit!


-John

Boxing without gloves damages you hands, ala Mike tyson. What I am saying is I will listen to good "common sense" street boxing, I also use boxing training in my martial art.
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-29-2004).][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pete:
Could use the skipping rope tie the martial artist up, throw a medicine ball, distraction, take your boxing gloves out of bag, uh bad idea, gum sheilds, well forget those welcome to street boxing. Groin protectors, ouch try stuffing those down your jeans while defending your self.
What I am saying common sense on the street, I also do boxing sparring and training in my JKD training.
[This message has been edited by pete (edited 05-29-2004).][/QUOTE]

Common sense must prevail as to the limits of boxing, I also use boxing sparring and traing methods in my martial art.

yeah nuff said. Just curious pete, why all the same posts' back 2 back 2 back all the time....

I agree that boxing (pure boxing) needs adjusting for the street. What can we do:

* Change the structure of boxing (stance, etc) to allow for a sprawl.
* Limit the amount of hooking punches that are thrown, at least from a distance, to prevent people from shooting in when the hips pivot.
* Use more straight punching and forward pressure to control centerline and, to put the opponent on the defensive, moving backward.
* Use of the old-style "dirty" tactics like slamming the elbow with the overhook, headbutting, kneeing the groin and hitting below the belt, rabbit punching, thumbing the eyes in the clinch, etc. Oh yeah, and biting the ear in the clinch like Iron Mike.
* Allowing the use of the underhook in the clinch
* Allowing takedowns and fighting from the ground in the mount position.
* Teaching the boxer how to fight off of his back from the guard position until he can get back to his feet.
* Teaching the boxer how to escape from bad positions on the ground and, to regain better positions of advantage (mount, side mount, etc.)


Oh wait....I've just described MMA training!

-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:
yeah nuff said. Just curious pete, why all the same posts' back 2 back 2 back all the time....[/QUOTE]


NO KIDDING! I've BEEN curious about this as well! What gives Pete?


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

NO KIDDING! I've BEEN curious about this as well! What gives Pete?


-John

[/QUOTE]


NO KIDDING! I've BEEN curious about this as well! What gives Pete?


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

NO KIDDING! I've BEEN curious about this as well! What gives Pete?


-John

[/QUOTE]


NO KIDDING! I've BEEN curious about this as well! What gives Pete?


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

NO KIDDING! I've BEEN curious about this as well! What gives Pete?


-John

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John_C:
Once again pete, I have no idea what message you're attempting to communicate.

Are you saying boxers need gear to fight, like Isshin was?

You're kidding yourself, I think, although I wouldn't encourage you to test the theory out.

Typically, Isshin tosses out an unargued one liner as his "point", and my gi comment is simply a rejoinder to that to point out the facility of what he's saying.

Frankly I was still reeling from the "boxing punches damage your thumbs" revelation at the time.[/QUOTE]Hello Johnc, Earlier, i was speaking of a dislocation of the first metacarpal/Bennets fracture. Anyway, While the thumb/first metacarpal does cover the 2nd,& 3rd metacarpals,The thumb is itself exposed & can still be injured,& the chances of winning a fight are done with. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ________________________________________ BTW ABout 6yrs ago,A greenbelt asked me,Why do we have to keep are thumbs on top? I was gonna tell him,It's because the forearm muscels are being used less,& therefore it allows for greater speed.But i did'nt tell him that.I thought of a better way for him to learn.Anyway, I told to just have his thumbs out,Or to pretend you're a boxer.& he said yeah So,& i said come after me.Before he knew it I had grasped his hands while at the sametime i had put both of my lft & rt thumbs.& on both of his thumb nails/distal phalanges or distal phalenges & I had put him on his knees. ________________________________________ ALthough this was sorta prearranged,It seemed to be rather easy,Because the thumbs were exposed. I Used to tell my students that body dynamics are a science.Cause If you don't think of it as such,You don't have the discipline,& If you don't have the discipline, you'll never be able to defend yourself. However that was along time ago. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]
http://www,csuchico.edu/phed/atc/projects/bennett/bennett.html

Cheers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Isshinryukid4life (edited 05-30-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
This post is really more for a sport vs. street debate, but I find that it parallels the discussion here to some extent, so I'm posting it anyway. Sue me.

About half of the people get it and (oddly enough), half don't. The half that don't are the same folks who love the mystery of the martial arts and, the romance of "street fighting". They pretend to train because their arts are just too deadly to spar with. They "know" (somehow they know) that they can KILL a man with just a few blows.

Not that THEY'VE ever done it, but that's what they've been TOLD (because as you know, their master's, master's, master's, master's, master did it once several hundred years ago). These folks know that THEIR art is the ONLY true art for the "street"! (By GOD!)[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-29-2004).][/QUOTE]

I see your point and agree with the sportative training thing. I don't think there are super deadly arts out there. Some arts say they don't want to do NHB because they don't want their art taking on the image of something uncivilized.

I think boxing can be deadly (not super deadly). I've been lucky to see a few boxers in real fights...they ended the fights within seconds.

(What do you think about these points against boxing strategy?)
I think their weakness is that they rely alot on timing (I wouldn't underestimate it at punching distance), but how useful is timing once you enter the trapping range?) There is no the need to bob, weave and dance around. Once you got the hand trapped targets are open.

Do you think you should worry about close quarter boxing techniques when you go in the clinch or should you ignore those and go straight for elbows, neck cranks etc...? Which of the two options do you think are more effective?

Nevertheless, I think boxing is a good art to borrow from. It has good training methods and allows you to flow from and to punching and close quarter ranges easily.


Warm regards, Lok

[This message has been edited by Lokkan-Do (edited 05-30-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:
I see your point and agree with the sportative training thing. I don't think there are super deadly arts out there.
[/QUOTE]


I don't think that there ARE any "deadly" empty hand arts out there. I do however believe in deadly situations. For example, having the mount position on someone who's head is against a hard surface. Repeatedly punching someone like this in the head can and has resulted in death.

This was the case of Thomas Junta vs. Michael Costin. Costin died as a result of head trauma, brough about by Thomas punching him in the head repeatedly from the mount. You may remember this case as the infamous "Hockey Dad's" fight. It shows that head trauma is a sure-fire fight ender, and in this case, life-ender.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Some arts say they don't want to do NHB because they don't want their art taking on the image of something uncivilized.
[/QUOTE]

That's fine. However, those artists shouldn't go around bad mouthing those that DO want to engage. They shouldn't sit back from a safe distance and "talk" about how deadly their arts are and, that they would defeat the "sport guys" on the street, all the while making excuses about not wanting to or, being able to spar because of their arts alleged superiority.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

I think boxing can be deadly (not super deadly). I've been lucky to see a few boxers in real fights...they ended the fights within seconds. [/QUOTE]

Boxers have died in the ring. That's deadly enough for me. That SHOULD shut the "street guys" mouths, but it doesn't. They continue to make excuses.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

(What do you think about these points against boxing strategy?)
I think their weakness is that they rely alot on timing (I wouldn't underestimate it at punching distance, but how useful is it when you get into trapping range?
[/QUOTE]

Time is an essential element no matter WHAT range you find yourself in. Timing is the attribute by which you're able to execute your offense and defense. Timing was never and can never be a detriment to any athlete


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:
There is no the need to bob, weave and dance around. Once you got the hand trapped targets are open.
[/QUOTE]

Bobbing and weaving, etc. are tactics. Those tactics can come into play at any time, depending on the situation. As I have mentioned before, the difference on the street is not one of tactics, so much as it is one of strategy. A boxers strategy will be different--not his tactics.

On the street, a boxer isn't GOING to dance around and "play the game". He's going to focus on hitting and more hitting, without letting up.

Trapping a boxers hands at this point will only open a person up to a knock out. Never try and trap a persons hands using traditional methods. You don't control the arm at the hand, you control the arm at the source -- the shoulder. If you're going to trap, you've got to get into a clinch and trap the whole arm by controlling the shoulder. You do that by getting the underhook as taught in Greco-Roman...not Wing Chun or Jun Fan. Forget those things pronto, if nothing more than for your health.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Do you think you should worry about close quarter boxing techniques when you go in the clinch or should you ignore those and go straight for elbows, neck cranks etc...? Which of the two options do you think are more effective?
[/QUOTE]

I believe you need to break the clinch into two different frames of referrence:
1. Unattached
2. Attached

The unattached clinch (trapping range) is not really a good place to be, unless you are completely outclassing your opponent. We call this the "range of exchanges". This is because both parties will be throwing rapid-fire combinations at this range. You can be hit and the other guy can be hit. If the other guy is bigger/faster/stronger...he's going to come out with the edge here.

The ATTACHED clinch is where you'll want to be. This means, having an underhook, body lock, muay Thai "plumm", over-under clinch, etc.. The tactics you use will depend on which one of these clinch scenarios you have.

It should be obvious that I favor the attached clinch. This is because one has the positional control over your opponent. The UNattached clinch means that you do NOT. With positional control, you control your opponent's body. This should open up a variety of different attacking options just as it would from the ground, from strikes (fist, elbow, headbutt, knee) to takedowns.

Let me speak briefly about standing submissions (chokes, neck cranks, etc.): I don't really feel that they are among the highest percentage of tactics that you could use. It really comes down to how you control the clinch.

For example, when using the front headlock, you can use a choke as well as knee strikes. The choke comes about as a result of a snap-down. Perhaps if you hit it quick, you can nail that one from other positions. But in my experience, only the front headlock position offers this kind of offense.

The best offense from the clinch, will come in the form of knee strikes or takedowns.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Nevertheless, I think boxing is a good art to borrow from. It has good training methods and allows you to flow from and to punching and close quarter ranges easily.

Warm regards, Lok

[/QUOTE]


Boxing provides a needed element, but doesn't provide the whole picture. It is incomplete, just like Brazilian jiu-jitsu. However, once you add the boxing (modifying it for the street, but keeping the same method of training) to a Greco-Roman clinch game, and add to this the VERY necessary element of Brazilian jiu-jitsu training, you then create a fighter that it would be foolish to mess with on the street, in the ring, or anywhere ELSE you care to mention.

The sport arts allow you to train. They aren't complete pictures, with the exception of putting them all together in ONE STYLE. That "style" is today's MMA. Just remember, MMA is just a method of training. You still modify that for the street. Again, not so much tactically, but strategically.

Take care!

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-30-2004).]

Thanks

In the issue of one vs. another, it is my opinion that you should learn as much as you can from all forms of martial arts.
It has been said before in the thread that no one form is complete, so should that not prompt you to experience as many as possible?

If not for the broadening of your mind and body, then for the honing of your ability.

I have not been able to experience as much as I desire, thusfar. I am currently training in/around/within Muay Thai and I do have fighting experience OUTSIDE of training, not mentioning the fact that I am a naturally aggressive person. Both of those things are very helpful to getting comfortable in learning your particular art. So, to whomever may have started this thread, I advise you to master both, and then more.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allerlei:
In the issue of one vs. another, it is my opinion that you should learn as much as you can from all forms of martial arts.
It has been said before in the thread that no one form is complete, so should that not prompt you to experience as many as possible?
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think many realize this now, to be true.

The problem is, you still have people out there who still suffer from "black or white" thinking. Those folks feel that there are two distinct methods; one being sport and the other being street, and never the two shall meet. This sort of thinking is garbage.

The underlying problem with these folks is, they fail to be able to separate the sport side of boxing, from the DELIVERY system of boxing. They do the same thing with Brazilian jiu-jitsu and wrestling.

In their minds, they simply cannot fathom the possibility that, you can put ANY sort of "attachment" on the end of a boxing punch (ie, finger jab, palm heel strike, etc).

They also believe that in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you HAVE to roll around on the ground for 10 minutes before doing anything. These people cannot (for the life of them) see where the sport ends, and the delivery system begins. That is why this argument persists.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-30-2004).]

John, I couldn't agree more that the idea that "street" and "sport" are disctinct is quite silly.

You and I agree on a lot more than I thought.

Likely so, Joe.

The odd thing is, a LOT of us are probably a lot closer to agreement than we realize. It's the limitations of this medium which cause a lot of the "static".


-John

The internet seems to have that effect on communication.

What a fucking stupid question to ask....wtf?!?!?!
boxing only involves punching...why only do that when you can knee, kick, head strike and elbow. Muay Thia is the ruler of stand up fighting. Just look at Pride, UFC, IVC, King of the cage etc...MMA events. You never ever see a boxer enter it without cross-training, its succidal. Not to mention grappling as an important alternative....I have many clips of boxers, kung fu experts, karate, even some muay thia and kick boxers Vs grapplers (judo, BJJ) and about 95% of the time, graaplers win. It shows how important it is to cross train and quite simply, BOXING is pathetic against a trained MMA opponent. Vanderlei SIlva VS Mike Tyson or any known boxer. He'll be kissing canvas in round one!

may i ask why everyone insists that karate training is pre arranged and always againt a non resistant opponent? this is not the cases at all (or am i fourtunate to be in a real bujutsu center?)in any case our goju karate training insists on full contact fighting (here is my school,http://www.modernbujutsu.com/).It seems to me no one has had the chance to witness true bujutsu in action.Please people ,dont belive in the hype,karate, in its true form is a very formidable force,any art.but everyone has their prefence i guess? but it dosent hurt to train in any other art, because every art is missing something.thats why i train in goju,kickboxing, and combat submission wrestling to fill in the voids of my training. In all realness, we should be not worried on whats better but, whats better for the person.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donald:
What a fucking stupid question to ask....wtf?!?!?!
boxing only involves punching...why only do that when you can knee, kick, head strike and elbow. [/QUOTE]


Donald: No one is suggesting to only do boxing (pure boxing anyway). As I have alluded to earlier, boxing is a core element in the over all game. It is by no means complete. They way I look at training is, you have to isolate each area of fighting to improve those areas. What that means for us is, to box, to wrestle, to do jits, to kickbox. That is solely for improving each of those specific elements. Then you have to put them all together into one cohesive whole. That includes kicking and kneeing, etc.

Therefore when I am discussing boxing, I'm only speaking of the delivery system, not the "sport". There's a difference.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donald:

Muay Thia is the ruler of stand up fighting. Just look at Pride, UFC, IVC, King of the cage etc...MMA events. You never ever see a boxer enter it without cross-training, its succidal. Not to mention grappling as an important alternative....I have many clips of boxers, kung fu experts, karate, even some muay thia and kick boxers Vs grapplers (judo, BJJ) and about 95% of the time, graaplers win. It shows how important it is to cross train and quite simply, BOXING is pathetic against a trained MMA opponent. [/QUOTE]

I agree there. Only because ANY fighter who is one diminsional that is pitted against a multi-diminsional fighter is going to lose in this day and age. You have to have the complete game. No argument here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donald:

Vanderlei SIlva VS Mike Tyson or any known boxer. He'll be kissing canvas in round one![/QUOTE]


That really all depends. Are we talking about Vanderlei STANDING against Mike, or GROUND fighting with Mike? I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate a good pro boxer in the stand-up game. Sure Vanderlei has good the kicks and knees, but Tyson has better hands. In my experience, a person with better hands will defeat someone with kicking. All he's got to do is stay out of the clinch.


Take care!

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donald:
What a fucking stupid question to ask....wtf?!?!?!
boxing only involves punching...why only do that when you can knee, kick, head strike and elbow. Muay Thia is the ruler of stand up fighting. Just look at Pride, UFC, IVC, King of the cage etc...MMA events. You never ever see a boxer enter it without cross-training, its succidal. Not to mention grappling as an important alternative....I have many clips of boxers, kung fu experts, karate, even some muay thia and kick boxers Vs grapplers (judo, BJJ) and about 95% of the time, graaplers win. It shows how important it is to cross train and quite simply, BOXING is pathetic against a trained MMA opponent. Vanderlei SIlva VS Mike Tyson or any known boxer. He'll be kissing canvas in round one![/QUOTE]

i agree that multi system fighting is imperative in UFC or other MMA forums, but a world class professional boxer like tyson will do some serious damage to any martial artist who does not immediately take him to the ground. one punch from tyson and you could be looking at a broken neck. i dont think many MMA fighters could claim similar abilities.

hahahahaha times ten to the power of a million. Tyson, that fat peice of walking shit!!!?!?!
Vanderlei Silva would flush him down the toilet quite easily, so would most MMA fighters...but Silva wouldn't leave any stains!!!
He'd to to Tysin as he did to Rampage Jackson, but in the 1st minute. Who agrees???

Has Tyson ever broken anyone's neck anyway?
It ever rarely happens in MMA.
But why would a practitionar of MMA trade punches with someone who has devoted ALL there time and effort in, thats where all his technique and potensy lies and opponents of a good boxer would know this and improvise a new game plan. Why be lurred into your opponents favour, create a new tactic...thats what MMA is all about!
Anyway...I'm fighting in a Edinburgh Pride championships soon, its the same rules as Pride fc. Iv'e trained with gi's and without, what do you think I should fight in?

Donald.....sound

Has Tyson ever broken anyone's neck anyway?
It ever rarely happens in MMA.
But why would a practitionar of MMA trade punches with someone who has devoted ALL there time and effort in, thats where all his technique and potensy lies and opponents of a good boxer would know this and improvise a new game plan. Why be lurred into your opponents favour, create a new tactic...thats what MMA is all about!
Anyway...I'm fighting in a Edinburgh Pride championships soon, its the same rules as Pride fc. Iv'e trained with gi's and without, what do you think I should fight in?

Donald.....sound

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donald:
Has Tyson ever broken anyone's neck anyway?
[/QUOTE]

erm... yes he has, Ogloto's neck was busted by a Tyson punch. Trust me, when they measured the power of Mike Tysons punch it wasnt much of surprise when they described it as - "like a small bus hitting you".

The man would devastate most martial artists, mixed or not. He has perfected the science of punching and he commands great power with his punches and to say he is no good is complete ignorance.
He was/is a mean mofo! simple as that, he is a pure fighting machine and if the man was to train in grappling and Muay Thai he would surprise quite a lot of you MMA fanatics.... well at least in his prime (of course, for sake of arguement [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])

UFC is comparitively small, there is not many fighters in UFC so its quite easy to be disillusioned by good fighters who prevail in UFC as being the "best" there is. Benny the jet is a prime example of this blindness, thinking cos he tore a whole in the US kickboxing scene and the European kickboxing scene that he could travel off to Thailand and make a mark, how wrong he was!

So, in UFC you have grapplers and standup fighters who mix up things... why? cos its necessary for fighting in the UFC arena, the ground is safe and strategically important. Now, would many of these "great" fighters do so well when in, lets say, Kachin?

What I have learned is that the man (man being a thing) with the biggest voice and the most impressive looking outfit (UFC - Pride - K1 etc etc) isnt necessarly the best, it comes as no surprise when I have seen many American and European, not to mention a Canadian, Mixed Martial artists in Thailand training and totally having their eyes opened and being humbled because they thought what they knew was the "way it really was", when you get thrown around like a ragdoll by a man who is 1-2 foot smaller than you and a few good kilos lighter then you witness the same man fight like a machine - literally, this does tend to make you view the western world of competitve fighting sports as nothing but quite amatuerish. I aint saying they are crap fighters.... they simply didnt begin walking and fighting at the same time.

then come sthe arguement "so then why dont they come to USA to fight".... I suppose they simply dont want to and to be honest I dont think its because of "fear", they gain more glory and honor in their own countries than they ever would in USA or Europe. A Thaiboxer in Thailand can be compared to a 1st Division footballer in England. Fighters in USA and Europe do not get that kind of status.

There are many countries which hold submission grappling and MMA type events but are not on the spotlight and to be honest they have been around much longer than UFC and even the Gracies. These countries are the quite ones, they have a pretty simple looking outfit and dont shout a lot... these countries, in my opinion are where you will find the greatest fighters.

get bent!

If you think Tysons punch is like "a small bus hitting you"....I bet CRO COP's left round house is like the real thing!

Donald - shut up once again! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Cro-cop... haha, man your such a dumb ass! Cro cop and Mike in the ring together, only boxing, who would win?

Ask yourself if you truly believe all that pretending is going to help you against an athletic, conditioned and experienced combat sport guy. If you STILL believe that, get into the ring or on the mats with one. Go for a quick round and see if you can "hang" with one for 30 seconds before you are knocked out or submitted. THEN come back and tell us that your "pretend" training will be of benefit!


-John


John,I'll be respectfully,& diplomaticly as i possible. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]Although going in the ring & on the mat is helpful to a certain extent. Yet my experince of fighting while growing up was not in the ring. One things that happend to me daily as i went to school,Was having 4 to 5 guys jump be from behind.Which is far differentfrom a controlled invirenment with rules & what not while sprring with one guy. I've had fights where the other guy would have a nife or baseball bat,& yes a hammer,frying pan [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] & a gun. Anyway IMCO that what i've gone through was more brutal than what you're referring to.That being said I'm sure they'er some ppl on this forum that have gone through worse.Oh, I might not agree with you at times,But i do respect you as a MA PS Plz excuse my bad spelling [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG] ________________________________________Cheers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

There are decent fighters all over the world, with their own respective fans and, their own respective "voices" shouting about how great these fighters are.

NEVER in the history of the world have people been given the opportunity to step up onto the world stage and into the spotlight, to showcase their skills. The way media is today, word has never gotten out FASTER about which fighters have the right stuff.

Of these main stages, the UFC, PrideFC and, to a lesser extent (due to the fact that it is not MMA) K1, lead the way above ALL else. These events showcase, without a doubt, the individuals who are the VERY best at competition "reality" fighting.

There is a lot of talk among people these days, about fighters who are "supposedly" superior to ALL of these fighters participating in MMA and the KI. These fighters would "allegedly" MOW DOWN the competition. But it seems that it's nothing more than more blowing smoke.

These fighters NEVER materialize. They NEVER come forth out of their "dens of oblivion" and showcase their skills. WHY is this one has to ask?

The FANS of these fighters NEVER shut up. They constantly flap their jaws about these guys. The problem is, talk is cheap. VERY cheap. ACTION is the ONLY true vehicle of credibility.

Without this action, all these fighters and their skills, are nothing more than the product of wishfull thinking and cheap talk.

Who does this apply to? Only to those who think that it does.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:


John,I'll be respectfully,& diplomaticly as i possible. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Athough going in the ring & on the mat is helpful to a certain extent. Yet my experince of fighting while growing up was not in the ring. One things that happend to me daily as i went to school,Was having 4 to 5 guys jump be from behind. Which is far differentfrom a controlled invirenment with rules & what not while sprring with one guy. [/QUOTE]

Let me ask you a question right here; in your honest opinion, is there a martial art ANYWHERE that will even the odds in a situation in which, you are outmanned 4 or 5 to 1?

I've give you MY answer: HELL NO! Only the martial art of HANDGUNNING will even the odds in that scenario. But, you may have a different opinion. I'd like to hear what your's is.

But what does this have to do with "pretend" training vs. training athletically against resistance?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:

I've had fights where the other guy would have a nife or baseball bat,& yes a hammer,frying pan [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] & a gun.
[/QUOTE]

Did you win against the guy with the knife and bat? Did you win against the guy with the gun??? I'm really curious about it.

But again, tell me how this has anything to do with "pretend" training vs. training athletically against resistance?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:

Anyway IMCO that what i've gone through was more brutal than what you're referring to.
[/QUOTE]

That's all relative


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:

That being said I'm sure they'er some ppl on this forum that have gone through worse.Oh, I might not agree with you at times,But i do respect you as a MA PS Plz excuse my bad spelling [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

Cheers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


I understand what you're saying, but we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about your brutal life experiences and I'm talking about training hard.

I would STILL think that hard training will help you better in real life situations than PRETENDING to train and fight ANYDAY!

Am I wrong?


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
There are decent fighters all over the world, with their own respective fans and, their own respective "voices" shouting about how great these fighters are.

NEVER in the history of the world have people been given the opportunity to step up onto the world stage and into the spotlight, to showcase their skills. The way media is today, word has never gotten out FASTER about which fighters have the right stuff.

Of these main stages, the UFC, PrideFC and, to a lesser extent (due to the fact that it is not MMA) K1, lead the way above ALL else. These events showcase, without a doubt, the individuals who are the VERY best at competition "reality" fighting.

There is a lot of talk among people these days, about fighters who are "supposedly" superior to ALL of these fighters participating in MMA and the KI. These fighters would "allegedly" MOW DOWN the competition. But it seems that it's nothing more than more blowing smoke.

These fighters NEVER materialize. They NEVER come forth out of their "dens of oblivion" and showcase their skills. WHY is this one has to ask?

The FANS of these fighters NEVER shut up. They constantly flap their jaws about these guys. The problem is, talk is cheap. VERY cheap. ACTION is the ONLY true vehicle of credibility.

Without this action, all these fighters and their skills, are nothing more than the product of wishfull thinking and cheap talk.

Who does this apply to? Only to those who think that it does.


-John

[/QUOTE]

John, I am sure if you asked many of todays great UFC fighters who they think are naturally gifted (born) fighters you'd maybe be surprised with who they mention.

This is not FLAPPING, this is not a "fan" shouting, this is the way it is. These guys dont fight in UFC or K1 (actually they do in k1 at lower wieght division and do clean up) or almost all the other "westernised" fighting arenas because of very obvuious reasons. Now John I aint saying you have never been out of USA but I can tell you now, media or not, the majority of poverty stricken fighters from S.E.Asia only hear whispers about fighting abroad... its to some of them something that they will never see.... but nevertheless, and I know how much you hate to believe this, they are the greatest fighters ever born! Saying what you said is stupid, I hate to sound patronising but man, I have been to many of the countries there, I know from first hand experience that these guys simply have no idea what USA or Europe woiuld be like let alone want to further their goals by wanting to fight there. You see for these guys all they care about is winning the local stadiums belt! earning money and fighting for the glory that comes from where they live. That is not a romanticised comment and dont think it is, its a fact of the life they are living. UFC is not so big in S.E.Asia. Japan is westernised to such an extent that even Japan to many of these people is just another "heaven" they may never see in their lifetime.

Take what way you want but until you have first hand experience, or witness some of teh greatest fighters living then all you can do is compare with other UFC fighters.

Sorry mate if that sounds like an arguement but I feel pasionate about that and my heart goes out for these so very great fighters who have nothing to their name while the UFC makes good fighters out to be the best, Mexico, Cuba... both similar countries producing some of the worlds greatest ever boxers but how far do they get, now and again some slip through the mess of immigration and beaurocratic bullshit to make it in our so over rated society.

make of that what you will

I would STILL think that hard training will help you better in real life situations than PRETENDING to train and fight ANYDAY!

100% True!!

I am not really following this, but almost wholey I agree with you John...however...

Ever heard or sport Karate? Kickboxing. Kata boy doing 1000 punches a day on punching bag and using boxing's training methods to get better results? The option is always there for those that are interested in a more practical approach.

Kung Fu freak cross training and doing Kung Fu freestyle fighting? (A form of kickboxing basically)

If it's how you train anyone from any style and any country can be athletic.

Even Mike Tyson doesn't want the lastest equipment, he goes to a run down gym in his old poverty stricken neighbourhood.


Adding to Mauy Thai's argument:
In South Asia..those indian wrestlers rock!!! They don't have fancy equipment, but they spend all day training (24 hours) with little break or literally no break. The are one of the most conditioned fighters in the world and heck prolly better conditioned than those Greco-Roman wrestlers (IMHO prolly). These guys do this because it's the only way to get a job and to carry on the tradition and duty of their ancestors.

Heck, it's always easy to think that you are the best because you were born [insert name of country].

Right cross, uppercut, PunJAB. (I'm Sikh)


Warm regards, Lok

[This message has been edited by Lokkan-Do (edited 05-31-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

John, I am sure if you asked many of todays great UFC fighters who they think are naturally gifted (born) fighters you'd maybe be surprised with who they mention.
[/QUOTE]

I'm sure there would be a lot of names. Maybe, then again who really knows? My point is, until someone is willing and or able to step up onto these grand stages, it’s all really a matter of opinion – not established fact. I mean hey, opinions are great and all………

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

This is not FLAPPING, this is not a "fan" shouting, this is the way it is.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, was I accusing YOU of “flapping”? And, this “way that it is”…. is that your opinion again? Is this ”way it is” coming from a credible MMA sanctioning body?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

These guys dont fight in UFC or K1 (actually they do in k1 at lower wieght division and do clean up) or almost all the other "westernised" fighting arenas because of very obvuious reasons. Now John I aint saying you have never been out of USA but I can tell you now, media or not, the majority of poverty stricken fighters from S.E.Asia only hear whispers about fighting abroad... its to some of them something that they will never see....
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but that’s still an excuse. You have to consider that fighters EVERYWHERE around the whole GLOBE are aware of the UFC, etc. People from all OVER are training to compete in just such events. This is NO EXCUSE whatsoever, for not have SOME person step up and prove themselves beyond a matter of opinion, within a credible event, put on by a credible MMA sanctioning body. Let the people decide for themselves.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

…but nevertheless, and I know how much you hate to believe this, they are the greatest fighters ever born!
[/QUOTE]

According to whom, Muay Thai? You? Hey, ya know, having a matter of opinion is one thing…proving it is another. That’s more cheap talk until someone comes to the plate to swing man.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Saying what you said is stupid, I hate to sound patronising but man, I have been to many of the countries there, I know from first hand experience that these guys simply have no idea what USA or Europe woiuld be like let alone want to further their goals by wanting to fight there.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, I don’t have a problem with these fighters, being unwilling to step up. They can stay where they’re at man, I don’t care. But what I do care about, are people who mouth off about fighters who they claim “are the best”, without ANY proof whatsoever, beyond their mere words. WORDS man! And only words will they continue to BE until they come out of their CAVES or wherever the hell they’re living and PROVE themselves. That my man, is the point that I’ve been making.

It isn’t the fighters that I talk against…only these unproven claims spewed so readily by “fans”


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

You see for these guys all they care about is winning the local stadiums belt! earning money and fighting for the glory that comes from where they live. That is not a romanticised comment and dont think it is, its a fact of the life they are living. UFC is not so big in S.E.Asia. Japan is westernised to such an extent that even Japan to many of these people is just another "heaven" they may never see in their lifetime.
[/QUOTE]

I understand this point, but it has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I’m talking about your claims that these are the greatest fighters living. Something that is nothing more than your opinion. However, it is NOT my opinion that three of the top fighters today are; Fedor Emelianenko, Wanderlei Silva, and, Matt Lindland. That isn’t my opinion because each of those guys have bothered to actually step up and prove themselves. Their records in MMA speak for themselves and, their ranking in MMA is beyond a matter of opinion. So, lets talk about verifiable facts and not opinions, shall we?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Take what way you want but until you have first hand experience, or witness some of teh greatest fighters living then all you can do is compare with other UFC fighters.
[/QUOTE]

That again man, is a matter of your opinion! When you say, the greatest fighters living, that is a matter of your OPINION my man! Greatest fighters compared against WHOM?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Sorry mate if that sounds like an arguement but I feel pasionate about that and my heart goes out for these so very great fighters who have nothing to their name while the UFC makes good fighters out to be the best,
[/QUOTE]

Well again, the UFC simply provides the platform. I’m certain that there ARE better fighters out there, who may never be known. Unfortunately for them, they can’t prove it. Unfortunately for their fans, they can’t establish themselves. That’s just the facts I suppose. But also unfortunately, until they can step up, it’s nothing but a lot of talk…and opinions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Mexico, Cuba... both similar countries producing some of the worlds greatest ever boxers but how far do they get, now and again some slip through the mess of immigration and beaurocratic bullshit to make it in our so over rated society.

make of that what you will[/QUOTE]

That’s the way it is. Some fighters get to the top and some don’t. It’s not the fault of the guys who DO make it to the top though…they’ve EARNED their way there. Talk about “unknowns” as being superior, is just flatly disrespectful of the one’s who have risen to the top and have established themselves. That’s another point of mine.


Take care,

-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

I am not really following this, but almost wholey I agree with you John...however...

Ever heard or sport Karate? Kickboxing. Kata boy doing 1000 punches a day on punching bag and using boxing's training methods to get better results? [/QUOTE]

Then that wouldn't be "Pretend training" would it?

Now I'm certain you know what I am referring to when I speak of "pretend" training. And if you, or anyone else is spending your time, training against resistance, then this doesn't apply to you.

If you ARE spending your time in pretend training, I don't know how it is that you can find all of the free time necessary to do everything else that needs to be done to hone your skills (things like, weight training, cardio work, bag work, sparring kickboxing, sparring wrestling and jits, etc). That takes a LOT of time to accomplish!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Even Mike Tyson doesn't want the lastest equipment, he goes to a run down gym in his old poverty stricken neighbourhood.
[/QUOTE]

That point has nothing to do with it. I feel certain that no MATTER where it is that Mike trains, he isn't "pretending" to fight, spar or train.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Heck, it's always easy to think that you are the best because you were born [insert name of country]. [/QUOTE]

No...being the best has do only with one's ranking within an established MMA sanctioning body. "Proof" of this must be etablished outside of one's own opinion.


Take care!


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
According to whom, Muay Thai? You? Hey, ya know, having a matter of opinion is one thing…proving it is another. That’s more cheap talk until someone comes to the plate to swing man.

[/QUOTE]

John who dominates the Muay Thai circut? who dominates K1 max? who dominates the world in standup fighting arts? are these then not proven "greatest" fighters? are you blind? is old age getting to your sight [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] thats proof enough. Just like the cubans and mexicans in Boxing.

Eeven now some, god forbid, dare I even say it, "Thais" are holding world Boxing titles... of course at lower wieght divisions, the Mexicans and Cubans dominate the boxing circut.... Cro-Cop is an outstanding kicker, I know, his left high round house is a killer but dude... in my opinion... the guy is good but to be honest I have witnessed with my own eyes better fighters who are apparently "inexperienced" than any I have witness on the MMA fights I have watched, and I have watched a few, I am beginning to like it but in no way does it compare (in my opinion) to the excitment and pace of a Muay Thai fight - and thats my taste, yours may differ coming from a grappling background.

Pol Prapradang - the Wild Boar, 350 fights never being knocked down once! is that just coincidence or did he just fight weaker opponents all the time?

the fact is, when fighting is concerned the Thai people excell at it.... they dont fight in UFC, I can tell you this now, they simply dont care and its not talk, trust me on that, take a plane over there and SEE for yourself even test it out - take some students with you and maybe try it out there. I aint trying to blow any trupmets here so I dont know why you are attacking me with your little comments which tell me you're getting annoyed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] Is it hard to understand that maybe some people, fighters included, simply find UFC boring? Ramon Dekker, an excellent fighter with 200+ fights who smashed his ankle rendering it useless, he came back from his injury knowing he couldnt use his leg again so kicked with the other, one leg, he went on to win - have you ever seen this man fight? He was aksed why doesnt he start fighting MMA, he said that he finds it boring, he likes to stand and fight... I dont think there is fear there and I dont think any of these fighter would enter the MMA arena without having cross trained. I dont know why the hell you keep saying "then why dont they stand up", ask yourself this, would you enter a Muay Thai arena and fight? if not then why? probably because you are not interested in it, this is not self defense and its not a "this is better than yours" bullshit, they do it because they love what it is they do. Its their choice and I doubt they are going to simply jump arenas simply to prove to the world that they are great fighters when they are already doing this where they are.

Now this isnt an arguemnt about MMA and Stand up these are comments on whom I believe to be great fighters. I am convinced once you actually witness these fighters i talk of actually fighting then your opinions may change. Why dont the mixed martial art guys take their skills to S.E.Asia and pit them against them, they do dont they? do they dominate? no they dont. Ok ground grappling is an aspect but dont you think when you take a fighter of such experience and train the man to be ready for a Mixed Martial Art event he wont make a mark? C'mon john, I think you can agree, you know and I know that anyone with an impressive (200+) fight record in a full contact fighting art (which doesnt allow ground grappling) when he's trained in ground grappling do you think he will suddenly forget his skills? or loose his experience and edge that made him such a great fighter in the first place.

Give credit to the little jungle boys... I do give credit to the UFC fighters, and all fighters for that matter. know a great fighter when I see one, speed and timing, precision and the 7 moves ahead, you can see the perfected techniques, it almsot unbelievable and very inspiring to watch. I watch UFC and I see two men fighting, on rare occasions do I see the aww inspiring fighter that I have seen so many times in Thailand. I am really sorry to say that and I know how much it pisses you off, I dont even know why you get pissed off at that, I suppose its just you not agreeing and the refusal to accept that there are many many people who finbd UFC boring. again I apologise but its the way I feel about it and what you see as a great fighter and what I see as a great fighter are apparently two completely different things but what does matter is that we both know how to go about getting great fighters.

Muay thia, your such a dumb ass....the reason I said Cro Cop's left kick was becuase to compare the power.................and in a match where he could kick.....not a boxing match

anyway....peace

Donald - I checked your profile, I used to live in Bo'Ness, actually spent most of my youth there till I was about 9 I am just over the sea [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

anyway, I wasnt refering to your comment about Cro-Cop, I actually forgot about that.

Why John, I sound like a street guy and a sport guy [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
John who dominates the Muay Thai circut? who dominates K1 max? who dominates the world in standup fighting arts? are these then not proven "greatest" fighters? are you blind? is old age getting to your sight [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] thats proof enough. Just like the cubans and mexicans in Boxing.
[/QUOTE]

That’s just it Muay Thai…I’m not talking about simple “stand-up” fighting. That’s only ONE aspect of what is empty hand fighting. If it doesn’t include wrestling, etc., it’s not the complete picture.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
Even now some, god forbid, dare I even say it, "Thais" are holding world Boxing titles... of course at lower wieght divisions, the Mexicans and Cubans dominate the boxing circut.... Cro-Cop is an outstanding kicker, I know, his left high round house is a killer but dude... in my opinion... the guy is good but to be honest I have witnessed with my own eyes better fighters who are apparently "inexperienced" than any I have witness on the MMA fights I have watched, and I have watched a few, I am beginning to like it but in no way does it compare (in my opinion) to the excitment and pace of a Muay Thai fight - and thats my taste, yours may differ coming from a grappling background. [/QUOTE]

That’s all well and good man, but when you speak of the “greatest fighters”, you HAVE to speak in terms of MMA fighters because, as I mentioned earlier, everything else is just one specific facet of empty hand fighting. You simply MUST include every game in order to be considered the ‘best’ fighter.

You can be the worlds “best” boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, judo player, Brazilian jiu-jitsu grappler, etc. But until you put it ALL together in vale tudo, should you be considered the “world’s best FIGHTER”.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
Pol Prapradang - the Wild Boar, 350 fights never being knocked down once! is that just coincidence or did he just fight weaker opponents all the time?
[/QUOTE]

Probably. I can’t say for sure until he steps up and fights against today’s established fighters, instead of unknown people who ALSO haven’t had their credibility established. Have him go to MMA and lets see how he does. That would be interesting to see, don’t you think?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

…. the fact is, when fighting is concerned the Thai people excell at it
[/QUOTE]

A thundering HERD of people excel at fighting Muay Thai --- and not just those from your fabled THAILAND

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

.... they don’t fight in UFC, I can tell you this now, they simply don’t care and its not talk, trust me on that, take a plane over there and SEE for yourself even test it out - take some students with you and maybe try it out there. I ain’t trying to blow any trumpets here so I don’t know why you are attacking me with your little comments which tell me you're getting annoyed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Annoyed?? HELL NO! I love this man, I’m a FIGHTER for crying out loud, are you KIDDING ME?!! I love arguing second only to taking a striker off his feet and pounding his ass!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Is it hard to understand that maybe some people, fighters included, simply find UFC boring?
[/QUOTE]

Again, that’s fine. How many times must I have to continuously reiterate the fact that I have NOTHING against these fighters that you speak of? It’s only people like yourself who make claims about how these guys would just “blow away” the competition at the UFC, that I have a problem with. These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got. Until ANYONE bothers to come into the UFC or Pride, and fight, will they have any credibility in my eyes as being among the worlds best at fighting.

Surely now after what, 48 UFC events (not including Pride, IVC, KOTC and others), you’d have thought that just ONE Thai would come in and clean up!!!! For crying out loud man, how many Thais ARE there in this world? Just ONE is all it takes.
So far, no good. I would go on to say that, we all shouldn’t hold our collective breaths.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Ramon Dekker, an excellent fighter with 200+ fights who smashed his ankle rendering it useless, he came back from his injury knowing he couldnt use his leg again so kicked with the other, one leg, he went on to win - have you ever seen this man fight?
[/QUOTE]

And WHO is he again???? I’m not familiar with that name. Maybe that’s because he doesn’t FIGHT anywhere I pay attention to. Maybe that’s because all he does is fight muay Thai? Sorry, I’m not interested in pure muay Thai fighting. When he comes to MMA, I’ll pay attention. Does he have any plans of doing so? If not, OH WELL!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

He was aksed why doesnt he start fighting MMA, he said that he finds it boring, he likes to stand and fight... I dont think there is fear there and I dont think any of these fighter would enter the MMA arena without having cross trained. I dont know why the hell you keep saying "then why dont they stand up", ask yourself this, would you enter a Muay Thai arena and fight? if not then why? probably because you are not interested in it, this is not self defense and its not a "this is better than yours" bullshit, they do it because they love what it is they do. Its their choice and I doubt they are going to simply jump arenas simply to prove to the world that they are great fighters when they are already doing this where they are.
[/QUOTE]

I would fight muay Thai if that’s what I trained for. Why not? But that isn’t what I train for. I train vale tudo. Also, it isn’t my intention to fight professionally. I have several reasons for this; 1) I’m 39 and have too many injuries. 2) I have a 10 year-old son and other responsibilities (job, etc).

However, this isn’t about MY claims that I’m among the world’s greatest fighters. That’s not EVEN close to being the case. This is about your incessant chatter about how the Thai’s are the worlds greatest living fighters. And, it’s about how I say BULLSHOT to that, until they bother to step up into the world of MMA. I don’t give a flying RATS ass if they find it “boring” or NOT. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Dig?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Now this isnt an arguemnt about MMA and Stand up these are comments on whom I believe to be great fighters. I am convinced once you actually witness these fighters i talk of actually fighting then your opinions may change. Why dont the mixed martial art guys take their skills to S.E.Asia and pit them against them, they do dont they? do they dominate? no they dont. [/QUOTE]

Muay Thai, when’s the last time that a MMA event has occurred in SE Asia? Hmm? Answer: There’s NOT been one that has offered these fighters anything that the UFC or Pride couldn’t offer. The worlds best come to THEM (UFC/Pride), not the other way around, dig? Get your fighters to do the same thing, or again, it’s just another excuse.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Ok ground grappling is an aspect but dont you think when you take a fighter of such experience and train the man to be ready for a Mixed Martial Art event he wont make a mark?
[/QUOTE]

Sure! Anything is possible. Of course you can do it. But I doubt that they’d be anywhere near ready. The guys in these events have been wrestling since they were 4 or 5 years old. There simply no WAY that you can take someone in 6 months or a year and have them ready for such an event.

But, if you started them young and gave them a few years doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu, etc., they could be ready to step up.
Just none of them have. And again….until……they……do…..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

C'mon john, I think you can agree, you know and I know that anyone with an impressive (200+) fight record in a full contact fighting art (which doesnt allow ground grappling) when he's trained in ground grappling do you think he will suddenly forget his skills? or loose his experience and edge that made him such a great fighter in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

No, I think he’ll be a formidable force to reckon with, depending of course on how good his skills on the mat are.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Give credit to the little jungle boys...
[/QUOTE]

I’ll give them credit when they EARN their credit. Until I see them fight in MMA, that isn’t likely to happen. I’ve seen Thai boxers go down to guys who did nothing but BOX with them in MMA fights. So far, I’m not that impressed. That isn’t to say that the guys they fought were among the worlds best, but neither were the guys who defeated them.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

I suppose its just you not agreeing and the refusal to accept that there are many many people who finbd UFC boring.
[/QUOTE]

No. It has ZERO to do with the notion that they find it boring. What it has to do with is the fact that I simply do NOT consider a person to be among the worlds greatest fighters, if they only fight within a single aspect of what is empty hand fighting. Whether it be boxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, sombo, catchascatchcan, or anything else --- if it’s just a sliver of the whole picture of what is, one-on-one, empty hand fighting, it’s second tier. That’s MY “opinion”.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

again I apologise but its the way I feel about it and what you see as a great fighter and what I see as a great fighter are apparently two completely different things but what does matter is that we both know how to go about getting great fighters.
[/QUOTE]

No need to apologize mate. Those are your opinions and I’m giving you mine.


Take care,

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

a boxer can not hit you if you stay a arms lenghts away let them throw a few and then shoot in close they can not fight when there arms are pinned which is easy to do if you are a good fighter they have no chance on the ground and if you break a boxers arm they are sitting ducks which all good MA should know how to do

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Again, that’s fine. How many times must I have to continuously reiterate the fact that I have NOTHING against these fighters that you speak of? It’s only people like yourself who make claims about how these guys would just “blow away” the competition at the UFC, that I have a problem with. These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got. Until ANYONE bothers to come into the UFC or Pride, and fight, will they have any credibility in my eyes as being among the worlds best at fighting.
[/QUOTE]

Hold the f**k up here John, I aint saying these guys would blow anyone away in UFC. ok.

Fabled Thailand? have you ever been there? do you really know what the f**k you are talking about? Who gives a flying shit about UFC and Mixed Martial Arts? I dont!!! Stop being so friggen protective of UFC J, you are like a big child refusing to believe some people dont like UFC and Mixed Martial Arts..... dont start the "its the whole game" bullshit, dude I couldnt care less, I only know a little ground fighting "Naban", mate I am 28 and I have never fought nor do I see myself fighting on the ground EVER! so then why the hell should I worry about such things. hmm... maybe these other fighters kinda think the same John. You will say "then I will pay for it" bla bla bla.... No I wont John because I simply dont walk around looking for fights and the place I like to compete is in Muay Thai because I like to fight not wrestle. Is it still hard to understand? or are you getting it now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

You're pissing me off J, I mean its no good sitting here being pissed off but dude you gotta stop bullshitting about "game" and UFC as the best arena for fighting. Who gives a flying shite? You obviously have never even been to Thailand and you OBVIOUSLY have never seen much fights outside of UFC or other arenas similar to UFC, I am telling to please shut the f**k up.

"...These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got..."

what a lot of shite, so how many exactly of these fighters have actually fought outside of UFC and if they have where exactly did they fight. A fighter will train in whichever techniques are need to win a fight, the greater the fighter the better the mind to use these techniques....


....so whats the arguement again?

The thing is John, and this is something you obviously dont seem to fathom, a fighter is a fighter no matter what he is trained in, it doesnt matter if its grappling or purely standup.... dont you get it? can you get it? I see a great fighter as a someone with a huge amount of experience and a great fight record and will to win.

Simple as that, its not hard learning how to grapple, I know I have been doing it, its not so f**king difficult john when you already know how to do it standing up. If he's a great fighter standing up and in clinch fighting they why do you think he would be crap on the ground?

By the way, that 350+ fight record with NO knockdowns IS impressive, John he is a great fighter. Muay Thai aint no easy arena to fight in, in fact in my opinion its tougher phyisically on the body and mind than Mixed Martial Arts... why? because you gotta fight and make hard contact all the time not just to get your opponent on the ground.... The death toll statistics and injury stats just tell you which arena is the most "dangerous" to fight in. Doesnt mean that UFC aint dangerous but when a man is given the choice to "tap" out, generally humans will when faced with agonising pain.

....so what were you saying again?

Credability in your eyes? UFC is a good place to fight and prove your ability in wrestling, ITS BORING TO WATCH!

John, have you forgotten about Maurice Smith, Muay Thai Champ turned UFC champ??? he is a shining example of a striker picking up the ground work and excelling, dominating.
i dont agree with you that a fighter MUST have grappling. groundwork is only 1 component of a total system and many if not the majority of UFC fighters have extremely weak stand up skills, hence they shoot to the ground ASAP. in practice, it is much easier for a strong grappler with weak stand up to shoot in and fight by his own terms against a strong striker with weak grappling. it is always easier to go to the ground, hence over 90% of street fights follow the same fate. this does not make him a better fighter but rather, it draws attention to the fact that he is not a complete fighter. a truly superior fighter would not have to execute such strategy and would be comfortable standing or grappling. whle there are a few such people in UFC and Pride, they are scarce.
no disrespect to UFC as i am a fan, but i also think UFC has bastardized martial arts to the extent that it focuses too highly on groundwork and allows substandard full system fighters to excel by shooting and going to the mat. this does not qualify them as being great fighters by any means but those ignorant of martial arts are lead to believe this to be the case.

a little extract from some thought of MMA fighter travelling to Thailand to fight in Muay Chao Cherk.

"...To add to the pressure, just a day before the fights were to be held, the Thai commission said the US was not ready to face the Burmese fighters in a bare-knuckle event. A meeting was called with the mayor, promoter, and commission members to discuss the possibility of removing the American fighters from the card. In spite of this, one of the high-ranked officials in the Muay Thai judge and referee group spoke out in defense of the US team. He pointed out that the fighters were coming from Master Toddy’s gym, a highly-respected school that could surely hold their own in the ring. The fight was approved, but with a few rule changes. There would be no head butts and no kicks to the opponent if he is down on the ground. Master Toddy requested to keep the rules the same as before. His students had already gone through the UFC world of no-holds-barred cage fighting. He was confident they would do well in the bare-knuckle match...."


"...The feeling of alienation was quickly pushed aside by shock and amazement as the fighters witnessed what they were going to be put up against. A bout between a Thai and Burmese fighter had just begun, and the stadium lit up in activity. The bets were being lined up, and the audience began to cheer for their champion. At one point, the fighter from Burma had been literally kicked out of the ring. The crowd, being as fierce as the two warriors, doused the fighter with water and threw him back into the ring..."

"...Another bout had a devastating head butt that caused a fighter to fly backwards into a corner and succumb to a brutal head kick that knocked him out cold. Bout after bout had knockouts happening in every corner. The crowds cheered, and the fighters gave them a show. During a break, the promoter asked the US team to enter the ring and introduce themselves to the audience. As the roar of the people echoed in the stadium, one of the fighters shook his head in astonishment and asked himself, “What am I doing here?”..."

"... The first bout of the afternoon set the tone for the atmosphere that was quickly filling with cheers and bone-crunching sounds being pounded out minute after minute. The Thai boxer, Super O, squared off against Burma’s Jeleong. This bout was nonstop action. Fists, head butts, and kicks were flying everywhere. In this game you couldn’t afford to stop moving unless you wanted a quick exit from the ring in a stretcher. Both fighters tried to knock each other senseless but the bout ended with both still standing. The fight was declared a draw, and the crowds welcomed such an incredible skill of strength and stamina. Still, the audience was thirsty for a knockout..."


"...Although the US team’s dream run in the ring had been amazing to say the least, they didn’t quite achieve the four for four win they were aiming for. Unfortunately, nerves and a loss of focus on the fight kept Saul Mitchell from coming out with a win in the last bout of the evening. This mix had Saul unprepared to face Pone Tone of Burma. In the opening minute of the round Saul was unable to answer an attack combo that brought him down. Although he was determined enough to stand up and face his opponent again, it was ruled that he couldn’t take any more punishment. Pone Tone was declared the winner by knockout..."

There's no Saul Mitchell listed on sherdog - is he mma, or k-1 rules?

1st Rd Ko, what did you make of UFC 47?

John_C sorry my mistake, they are member sof Master Toddies gym and have fought in MMA events.
http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue9/muay.shtml

its hard finding good articles about the event here but its an awsome specticle.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 06-01-2004).]

Muay Thai

Off topic question.

I was under the impression that-

(and I may have gotten some bad info here--thats why I am asking)

Burmese fighters and Thai fighters seldom matched.

Way off base or semi-accurate??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:


Muay Thai

Off topic question.

I was under the impression that-

(and I may have gotten some bad info here--thats why I am asking)

Burmese fighters and Thai fighters seldom matched.

Way off base or semi-accurate??[/QUOTE]


What do you mean? in terms of ability or matching for fights?

In terms of ability, I will be honest, for the last 30 years the Thais have dominated this "Song Khran" event. The Burmese however fight on a regular basis using no gloves and its normal practice to headbutt and kick to the groin and all manner of throws are legal ONLY no ground fighting. You can, as I have said before, kick your opponent on the ground, I think its like a two kick allowance so you cant stomp on his head!

That to me is a little confusing as the Burmese fight using the "old" rules on a regular basis but the Thais, while dominating this event, dont fight these kind of rules as regular as their Burmese opponents.

Somtimes there are even two referee's because of the rules allowed... it is NHB fighting only no ground submision is allowed, that will be found in Naban competitions in Burma. I have been to Burma about 4 times, its a very poor place and although I was only a short distance in country I couldnt believe there were no ATM's! when I asked I was given the reply "man, this Burma there are no ATM's"

Maybe they have something wrong is terms of financial responsibilities which may force the professional Burmese boxers to seek another Job while still fighting so their time is taken up by work, whereas the Thais have all the time in the world to train for fighting. I dunno thats just my opinion. The situation with one of the Burmese boxers being imprisoned for over staying his day visa is a perfect example of the hardships these fighters go through... for the majority, even if they wanted to, they couldnt compete in western events, some do however, they are few.

they are matched because of their long history at war. This event is more than just two fighters competing, this event is two countries who have continuosly been at war with each other both having victories and both having loses. It's good to see some foriegners taking part in this event and hopefully the MTV coverage will bring it to a wider audience and maybe some day we will see "Muay Chao Cherk" in western countries with the same rules.

Muay Thai

Thanks for getting back to me.

No, was not implying any lack of ability on anyones side.

I was told by an "in country" guy--who is NOT a martial artist that Thais didn't really allow Bermese to fight competitivatly in bouts.

I didn't know what he meant by that--thought it may have something to do with some kind or regional thing, maybe some bad blood between the Thais and Bermese.

I asked him to elaborate and some of reasons he gave were.

1- National sport for Tailand so they seldom had International comeptiton--like with Burma

2- That the Bermese were "bigger" people--makes no sense to me bu tthat is what he said.
I figure that he meant that they were on the heavy side of any given weight class--still makes no sense to me--but that is what he said.

3- The Bermese methods of fighting (bando) had differnet rules that Muay Thai so it was hard to set up a "equal" match--because both sets of fighters trained with different rules.
Very hard to get them agree on exactly how the match would be done.

Again I was just not sure that he was telling me stright--dude is NOT a martial arts guy so even his 3td hand report is suspect.

yeah your right. What im saying is using boxing as offense and basically using my martial arts knowlege as defense such as joint manipulation. Also i like to boom out of nowhere throw a kick appropiate for that moment.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
Hold the f**k up here John, I aint saying these guys would blow anyone away in UFC. ok.
[/QUOTE]

Essentially you have. Shall I find your own quote for you?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Fabled Thailand? have you ever been there? do you really know what the f**k you are talking about?
[/QUOTE]

I know what YOU are talking about Muay Thai, and, it's what YOU are talking about, that I am talking about.

(God I loved that one folks! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG])


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Who gives a flying shit about UFC and Mixed Martial Arts? I dont!!! Stop being so friggen protective of UFC J, you are like a big child refusing to believe some people dont like UFC and Mixed Martial Arts.....
[/QUOTE]


Hey, I realize that some fighters (and folks) don't like the UFC. That's mostly because they know they can't do anything but hit. They also know that once they've been taken out of their element that they'll be dismantled. That's why "many" people don't like it. Certainly not all, but many.

The deal is, this isn't about whether they like it or not, or whether you like it or not. It's about my opinon that you cannot call people great fighters unless they DO have the whole game. You may disagree, although I can't see how. Nonetheless, that's your right. Just as it is MY right to feel the way I do and to list the REASONS why I do.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

dont start the "its the whole game" bullshit, dude I couldnt care less,
[/QUOTE]

Well, I think you HAVE to include the whole game, otherwise, you're only talking about one diminsional fighters.

Just answer one question for us all, tell us HOW a one diminsional fighter can even come CLOSE to being considered among the "worlds greatest living fighters"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

I only know a little ground fighting "Naban", mate I am 28 and I have never fought nor do I see myself fighting on the ground EVER! so then why the hell should I worry about such things. hmm...
[/QUOTE]

Maybe because people exist who CAN take you off of your feet and beat you down? Maybe??? I'm mean, just maybe that's possible? If not, congratulations...you're the BEST fighter on the planet.

ATTENTION FORUM MEMBERS: We (may) have the best fighter on the planet as a member of OUR HUMBLE LITTLE FORUM!!!

(Just having some fun with you there guy, don't take it seriously.) Don't you just LOVE it folks when Muay Thai and I start going around??!!)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

maybe these other fighters kinda think the same John. You will say "then I will pay for it" bla bla bla.... No I wont John because I simply dont walk around looking for fights and the place I like to compete is in Muay Thai because I like to fight not wrestle. Is it still hard to understand? or are you getting it now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I SEE what you're saying...but you're thinking that wrestling isn't fighting. Hey that's all well and good bro, but ya oughtta try it once because I think you'll change your mind once you experience a little ground-n-pound music!

However, whether YOU wish to compete in it or not, or whether you even LIKE it or not, is not the argument here.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

You're pissing me off J, I mean its no good sitting here being pissed off but dude you gotta stop bullshitting about "game" and UFC as the best arena for fighting.
[/QUOTE]

It is. And do you know WHY it is? It IS the best because, it requires people to actually be able to do something other than just HIT! I mean, if you can't understand that being "one diminsional" is a bad thing, then you're beyond any sort of rationale. The UFC (lets just say, MMA) is the best proving ground, BECAUSE IT REQUIRES FIGHTERS TO BE MULTI-DIMINSIONAL. End of story. If a fighter isn't multi-diminsional...then he's just not among the best fighters out there. Period.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Who gives a flying shite? You obviously have never even been to Thailand and you OBVIOUSLY have never seen much fights outside of UFC or other arenas similar to UFC, I am telling to please shut the f**k up.
[/QUOTE]


Now, I'm going act as if that never was said. Because otherwise, those would be fighting words. If you were to have said them in front of me, I'd demonstrate exactly WHY it is that you need a ground game bro. Then you'd be eating your meals from a straw for a few weeks...dig?

However, I'm not going to hold that against you because I realize I've pissed you off. I understand that and also understand that you're as hot blooded as I am. My hats off to you for that....I'm the same way and can appreciate it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

"...These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got..."
[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

what a lot of shite, so how many exactly of these fighters have actually fought outside of UFC and if they have where exactly did they fight. A fighter will train in whichever techniques are need to win a fight, the greater the fighter the better the mind to use these techniques....
[/QUOTE]

They fight in the UFC and or Pride because, it allows for a greater number of tactics and strategies (other than JUST HITTING!). I mean, why limit yourself, right? That's the way THEY feel. Why go into a boxing match if you're a wrestler and fight his game? That would be a stupid strategy don't you think?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

The thing is John, and this is something you obviously dont seem to fathom, a fighter is a fighter no matter what he is trained in, it doesnt matter if its grappling or purely standup.... dont you get it? can you get it?
[/QUOTE]

I understand your point Muay Thai, but you're not understanding mine. MY point is that, he may box or wrestle, etc. But unless the fighter is multi-diminsional, he's not a "complete" fighter. How can you call anyone a "greatest living fighter" when he's incomplete? That's just commons SENSE guy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

I see a great fighter as a someone with a huge amount of experience and a great fight record and will to win.

Simple as that, its not hard learning how to grapple, I know I have been doing it, its not so f**king difficult john when you already know how to do it standing up. If he's a great fighter standing up and in clinch fighting they why do you think he would be crap on the ground?
[/QUOTE]


Maybe he wouldn't be a crappy fighter Muay Thai but then again, maybe he would be. We'll never KNOW because your guys never step up and SHOW it. Until they do, it's just more of your "flappin'" again about how these guys are the "greatest living fighters."


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:


By the way, that 350+ fight record with NO knockdowns IS impressive, John he is a great fighter. Muay Thai aint no easy arena to fight in, in fact in my opinion its tougher phyisically on the body and mind than Mixed Martial Arts... why? because you gotta fight and make hard contact all the time not just to get your opponent on the ground.... The death toll statistics and injury stats just tell you which arena is the most "dangerous" to fight in. Doesnt mean that UFC aint dangerous but when a man is given the choice to "tap" out, generally humans will when faced with agonising pain.

....so what were you saying again?

[/QUOTE]

I'm saying that, if a fighter isn't multi-diminsional, he can't be considered among the "greatest living fighters". The Thai matches may BE more dangerous. So would be boxing. That's only because the rules mandate that you STAND the whole time and face your opponent toe to toe, when the BETTER strategy would be to attack his weaknesses -- just like a REAL fight, instead of a staged one where you place so many limitations on what a fighter "can or can't do".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Credability in your eyes? UFC is a good place to fight and prove your ability in wrestling, ITS BORING TO WATCH!
[/QUOTE]


Not at all. You just have to have enough gray matter to understand subtlety and the nuances of grappling, and the various strategies used. Strategies OTHER than "just hitting" someone over and over again. Want to talk about BORING!


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 06-01-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
John_C sorry my mistake, they are member sof Master Toddies gym and have fought in MMA events.
http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue9/muay.shtml

its hard finding good articles about the event here but its an awsome specticle.
[/QUOTE]

NP. It's an interesting article.

I'd guess that these guys had only fought in amateur events. As far as I know, Sherdog lists all pro & semi-pro MMA records.

3 out of four isn't bad considering that though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

John, have you forgotten about Maurice Smith, Muay Thai Champ turned UFC champ??? he is a shining example of a striker picking up the ground work and excelling, dominating.
[/QUOTE]


No, I haven't forgotten about Mo. But my argument wasn't about strikers doing well in the MMA events. They have and continue to do well. MY argument was simply, to tell Mauy Thai to chill out about his arguments regarding the Thais as being the best fighters in the world, until they fight in a big time MMA event and prove themselves in that environment. THAT was what the gist of my argument was about

I have no doubt about a strikers ability to win in an MMA fight. Both Maurice and Chuck Liddell (among others) have proven this. But again, that wasn't my argument.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

i dont agree with you that a fighter MUST have grappling.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong! You MUST have a ground game. Otherwise, you leave a TREMENDOUS hole in your defense. The quickest way to get beaten by someone on the ground, is to not know ONE THING about ground fighting. Just like the quickest way to get knocked out is to not know anything about boxing. The quickest way to get taken down, is to not know a THING about takedowns.

Ground fighting is a MAJOR component. Without having skill there means only that, that is where you'll be beaten the worst.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

groundwork is only 1 component of a total system [/QUOTE]

That has BEEN MY ARGUMENT! Without a ground game, you're one diminsional. Without a STANDING game you're one diminsional. I believe that you have to be MULTI-Diminsional. That's what I've been saying.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

and many if not the majority of UFC fighters have extremely weak stand up skills, hence they shoot to the ground ASAP.
[/QUOTE]

That's because it is their STRENGTH. There's nothing wrong with going with your strong suit, if it's working. Most of the time it does.

You have to realize that, the majority of the fighters in the UFC have wrestling backgrounds. Going to the ground is going to be second nature for them. You can't fault them for that.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

in practice, it is much easier for a strong grappler with weak stand up to shoot in and fight by his own terms against a strong striker with weak grappling. it is always easier to go to the ground, hence over 90% of street fights follow the same fate. this does not make him a better fighter but rather, it draws attention to the fact that he is not a complete fighter.
[/QUOTE]


Well, I have to say, that the "better" fighter is the fighter that WINS. Wouldn't you agree? I mean sure, by your terms, he may NOT be a complete fighter, but he's got enough of what he needs apparently to do the job.

However if you'll look, most of today's fighters with wrestling backgrounds have VASTLY improved striking ability. It's getting better every day. Take a look at a guy like Randy Couture, Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz! All of them are wrestlers. Most of today's champions have been and are. But, their striking is improving all the time. And why? Because the smart fighters realize the need to be multi-diminsional.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

a truly superior fighter would not have to execute such strategy and would be comfortable standing or grappling.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed and that is and HAS been exactly my point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

whle there are a few such people in UFC and Pride, they are scarce.
no disrespect to UFC as i am a fan, but i also think UFC has bastardized martial arts to the extent that it focuses too highly on groundwork
[/QUOTE]

That is nothing more than a reality of fighting. However, I see more and more fights staying upright all the time. I would go on the say that people are realizing the need to have a standing game.

But the thing about taking a fighter off of his feet and putting him in a bad position, is an example of smart strategy! Strategy is the name of the game. Think about it this way; If you can take a guy off his feet, and put him in a bad position, you LIMIT his offensive possibilities while, DOUBLING YOUR offensive (and thus simultaneously DEFENSIVE) possibilities. That's why it's done -- because it WORKS!

I can not for the very LIFE of me, find a fault in placing someone in a position where I can hit them but they can't hit me. Not matter how hard I TRY, I just can't.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

and allows substandard full system fighters to excel by shooting and going to the mat.
[/QUOTE]

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? "Substandard full system"? How can a full system be sub-standard? Maybe I'm just not understanding you. Please explain.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

this does not qualify them as being great fighters by any means but those ignorant of martial arts are lead to believe this to be the case.[/QUOTE]

Well, I would rather use the term "complete fighter" because if they're winning consistently in the MMA environment, then they're obviously great fighters. Great fighters simply win and they do so by whatever means they can. You can't fault these guys for going with their strengths. As a said earlier, winning is about executing your strategy. If you're going against someone who is a superior striker, it would be a foolish strategy NOT to take them to the mat. Just can't blame them for this.

Does that mean that they're complete fighters? No. It does mean that they're winning fighters. Last time I checked, that was the whole idea.

-John

if a boxer knows how to block kicks and fight on the ground anyone who challenges him is STUFFED! all there is to it.i would love to see ANY black belt take on tyson. and boxin is boxin in the ring. u fight a boxer out of ring then he still has natural instict to help on the ground and kick blocks

Its all in who you are fighting, overall you have to have both ground and stand up skills. A boxer doesnt want to fight a good wrestler and a wrestler doesnt want to fight a good boxer. I do admit to give and take a punch is 90% of a street fight, but you still need to know how to work the ground, cause its hard to punch when someone is in the mount on you.

The chances of fighting a well trained grappler on the street are very slim mind you. A good boxer should be able to take on just about any typical bar fight.

Boxed needs to be balanced with throws and grappling to be a better all around fighter.
MA can learn a lot from boxing and vice-visa
for boxing.

You made some good points John some of which I agree with.
If there was a great Thai fighter why hasn't he entered a tournament?

I did want to ask you John what are your thoughts on fighters not being allowed to enter UFC and the like.
The reason I ask is that its common knowledge in the boxing world that some boxers have thier opponents 'tailor picked' for them and was wondering if you thought that this maybe went on with the UFC etc.

You made a good point all the same...if they are so good where are they all?

Well I have to say, there is no fooling around in selecting fighters, a good friend of mine went to a tryout for the UFC, they broke it down into trial matches, such as; 20 fighters go 1 on 1 then you have 10 left then they were 1 on 1 then there was 5 left for a final round selection. This is just an example breakdown of how he explained it. He lost in the first round but got to stay and see the rest.

In boxing the promoter puts on the fight and picks his fighters so thats how it goes, usually for instance Tyson's promoter will say who would be a good match for him, either for a large purse or for a good win and he will put out his bids to fighters some will deny and other accept thats how that goes.

Thai Boxers are good fighters, they are very few in North America compared to wrestling, boxing, judo, kickboxing. Your not going to get a lot of quality contenders when you have such a small base of athletes. You wouldnt see any good wrestlers if they took wrestling out of university and the olympics I bet either, cause only a small fraction would still be doing it. I box currently and kick boxed before and I would not want to fight a Thai boxer thats for sure.

But for someone who is at the top of a list like Lennox Lewis could easily dominate most Thai boxers because he is an elite athlete and most Thai boxers coulnt compete with a skill level like that. Sort of like a black belt in tae kwon do fighting a top pro level kickboxer, its not a fair matchup.

An art is only good as its support by the people. If you dont have a large athlete base, good trainers and traing facilites as well as money to support the althletes the quality of fighters is not going to be there.

I am sure if you held a MMA advent in Thailand or Holland you would get some quality Thai fighters if the money was there.

Another note is, its hard to get top level athletes to compete as well in any money sport like boxing or kickboxing because, well why would they take the time to cross train when they can make more money doing what they do. Boxers have it good, even a bad fighter can get a few grand for a fight, the promoter will pay to fly to and from and his hotel plus food. Its all about money and doing what you like to do.

Thats my novel of the idea.

Yeah, there are plenty of good fighters who arent in the UFC and fighting at smaller events. Its hard to get it, and even if you do good, you can still get peaced out. Besides UFC's few top fighters, the rest of the guys barely make anything for the fights, its just not that popular. They pay really good in Japan though. Wanderlei has been on a winning streak for 4 years, he's a beast and I doubt he will lose anytime soon.

I personally like martial arts better but in my shotokan class, besides doing traditional kata and a little grappling we also do a lot of kickboxing drills along with blocks and kicks from martial arts, and if u take martial arts, adding boxing to it could make it even better, but same goes for boxing, if u add martial arts it could make it better.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
I posted this a while ago on another thread:

If MA trained like boxers then they would be awesome.
Unfortunately only some do.

Boxing training is generally (NOT always)is of a higher standard. All competitive boxers have to train realisticaly with the correct combination of skill and conditioning training for it to work in competition.

MA don't HAVE to pressure test. So they don't HAVE to train very hard/well. You turn up stand in lines and your a MA.

If a boxer turns up to the gym and gets in the ring - he had better be able to defend himself. or else!

In general, the common factors involved in Training and Competition (which is a relatively good simulant of 'fighting'), are often found in a higher amount in most boxing gyms, than the common factors involved in Training and Real Fighting in most dojos. Thats not necessarily a good or bad thing - its just the way things are. Which often means the boxer will woop the MA arse. Having said that, the MA - pressure tested and properly trained - has much more options open to him, and theoretically SHOULD take the boxer.

Al

[/QUOTE]
Wrong , MA do train hard and if a boxer comes across a well trained MA, the boxer will find himself tastng the ground (most of the time). Although boxers are good punchers the MA is also a good puncher, kicker, and sometimes grappler. Not to diss on boxers but you souldn't be so sure that MA dont train hard.

Depends on what style of martial arts

Ive always sort of considered boxing a martial art.... it teaches self defence doesnt it? So isnt it a martial art?

Hmm... I just replied to another forum with the exact same topic.

For the person that said that "1 inch punch was makala" or whatever, and that boxing has a science behind it, well guess what, so does Shaolin Kung fu, or any other martial art for that matter. Shaolin Kung Fu could be used to defeat boxers, although a beginner (which would be even about 3-5 years into training) would probably be defeated by an adept boxer, ONLY because MA's nowdays train like three times a week and thats it, where in the past it was all day every day.Also most classes and public knowledge of Wushu/Kung Fu is watered down, yes even in China as it became Government regulated, and guess what, they destroyed the Shaolin Temple because of its powerful kung fu. But the real Kung Fu, not **** you see in TV, is just as dangerous, if not more than boxing. The reason is because you got literally thousands of techniques and methods of issuing power, and at high skill levels they are INSTINCTIVE, and every single one of them can be used for killing or permanently disabling your opponent. It is also known as the mother/father of all martial arts. Pretty much anything that you find in karate, Tae Kwon Do or even Akido can be found in Shaolin Kung Fu, only studied more in depth. (except Akido would be more related to Tai Chi).

I will quote myself in reference to this website: http://wongkk.com/combat/boxing.html

"Yes I have seen that exact same website and it would be effective against a boxer but ONLY if you have that type of skill. Any skill that is more powerful yet ALOT harder to be applied is going to take alot of practice to defeat a STRONG, FAST boxer, but it can be done. XingYi, I think, would handle Boxers quite easily, since the movements are straightforward and short, and used explosively. The reason why it would be effective is because you have the spring energy, to SPRING FOWARD before the person can even react, and even if he does you are already countering and attacking at the same time. In my old Shaolin class, at white belt level the first drill we would do is spring foward (with 70 percent on back 30 on front, very stable stance) WITHOUT hesitation and the person being leaped at had to retreat before the person springing forward could grab his arm. This had to be done at two arms length away from eachother, the idea is to NOT telegraph and on the defenders side to pick up telegraphs without ever looking anywhere in specific. This was the easiest exercise for me, for some reason, and I easily grabbed and evaded higher ranks who had been there for over 10 years. Such a skill would be hard to counter, but the TRUE inherent skills, that naturally come out of the CORE principles of any Shaolin art will enable to to do such feats.

Boxers have agility, but if you were faster, and able to "stick with them" which is totally possible, even if they are taller and perhaps more athletic than you, if you have the awareness. The mindset in high levels of kung fu is much different than boxing, as in the highest levels of chinese martial arts, there is no thinking, every action is a direct reaction to the opponents movement, offense and defense. Boxers dont think so much like this, they are raw fighters, although some are good martial artists and have the same level of spirituality as some Shaolin practicioners do. if they are just straight up ring boxers, (not fighers) then it would be MUCH much different, as first they are used to fighting with gloves AND rules. They bounce all the time and their stance is narrow, a fast Shaolin practicioner with a deep root could easily topple him with a mediocre kick or if he got in close enough, as low stances develop enormous chi in the legs, and INCREDIBLE speed. The reason being because all the tendons and ligaments, as well as muscles are loose and strong, not in mass but in endurance and chi.

In southern styles, or mantis, they use VERY low stances. If your opponent is tall, or his stance is tall then you sink and attack him from below. If you have trained in low tances, the flow and know your art well, there is no way a boxer could counter you, not even with kicks. There is a saying, to sink as your target grows. To kick a boxer or to box a kicker. Since you would have explosive legs, in which you could move VERY fast in stable stances VERY low, AND you have not only your legs to sweep/kick with but you have your arms to tear (tiger claw) or grapple his legs and perhaps end it with a ground fight, or simply just cripple his mobility. Since your hands would be in front of you, it would be easy to grab a boxers kicks (since he might not even know how to) as that is exactly where it starts and they would have short range. Using deceptive traditional Shaolin footwork, when fast and agile, would I think confuse and topple a traditional boxer, but you have to make sure you do not get hit, as some boxers have incredible punching power.

Those dive to the side in front bow stance punches that Wong does in those pictures could be used against straight or circular punches. I know because I have actually done it, not because I trained in THAT particular method,rather it was natural development of my Shaolin training. I had the low bow stances to generate power already, and I had already been taught how to strike from angles and always stay FAR enough away to evade, but CLOSE enough to attack. That is what Shaolin Foot work is, you could shift back into pu bu (not TOO low) avoid a high punch and before your opponents punch is even done coming full circle you have the opportunity to shift forward, INTO your opponent into either a bow or horse stance for maximum power. He's not diving into it, rather hes moving diagonally and evading the punch completely while striking, direct counter/defense.

If you can do these techniques at the same speed as the boxer can punch and move, then he would be no match for you. Yet it takes alot of training in force training and stance training. The reason being, is because you would have to have the elasticity to sink and move/strike at the same time QUICKLY, but its possible. Even if the boxer is throwing a fake punch. Plus most boxers don't guard their lower bodies, but they can take general body and face shots, so precise striking as Wong daoes in the pictures would be the way to go.

An internal art like Bagua would be very (obviously Tai Chi too) useful against a boxer, because your opponent, no matter how fast or how strong he is, would never be able to evade your footwork. Your hands would be redirecting his attacks as you move in around, to the side of him, or even in front, and trapping him so that he could not "bounce" around. And his narrow stance would make him easy to use the powerful throws (some which actually render certain limbs useless for the rest of their lives) or CLOSE palm strikes that are used in bagua, Why? Because you got explosive energy at an extremely close range. I was amazed the other day when my cousin was like, " can masters really hit you hard when your hand is right next to their body" I explained to him the theory and how it would work, and he asked me to do it, so I did. I used my legs, my waist, my shoulders and hand all at ounce to "shake into his body" with my palm flat on his stomach, it wasn't anything significant but it knocked him off balance and he stumbled a few feet back. By the way, this man is almost 300 pounds and is 6 foot 5, I am 5 foot 11. He said it kind of hurt, which was interesting because I wasn't striking. Note, that I am also a beginner in practice of the internal arts.

A thorough knowledge of chin na (which is NOT only locks) and its trapping methods would be good too, but it would have to be decisive and immediate. Tai Chi would get in close, and once that happens the boxer will never, ever escape.

But a beginner Shaolin student (and you are for the first 3-5 years or so, unless you practice every dya for long periods of time) would have a very hard time with an adept boxer or street fighter. You must prepare yourself for ALL situations and react naturally, without thinking. I have seen a mantis practicioner of 10 years taken down by a cheap shot by just your average fighting joe (no martial art really), as he straddled him and punched his face repeatedly. Nothing the mantis practicioner could do. You have to be ready, and aware.

Also, shaolin footwork is complimentary. If you notice when he strikes diagonally and to the side, he is in a low bow stance. All it would take is a sligh shift of foot direction, and he could IMMEDIATELY after he hits and moves, spring foward and strike him with a wingchun/Xingyi type movement, from the side, in which the boxer cannot evade. Since the front leg is bent, it could immediately be shifted foward from that front leg (which would in turn turn into a back/spring leg) to move foward. You see every time you bend really low, energy is stored in the knees, tendons muscles and ligaments, and can be released and exploded instantly, adding both speed and power to whatever you are moving towards. The shift would be slight, and the movement would be all at once. All it would have to do is change from a 90 degree to a 45 or 60 degree for maximum spring, which would be hard at all, the back leg would pick up slightly and move foward into the opponent. Also that same leg that moves foward could be used to trap the opponents leg as well.

It would actually be over kill, and kung fu practicioners, true fighters, are known for BEING QUICK, and doing these incredible high power movements in a very short amount of time.

Actually, you notice how when he is moving left and punching into his right side with his right arm his left arm is not being used? That is how you practice it, but in practical fighting, the left hand could be used to redirect the punch to his left (if you are punching with your right moving left). Making that movement absolutely safe and less of a risk. Xingyi has this movement but instead of moving diagonally it moves straight and the striking arm moves across your body and strikes with the side of your fist at his ribs."

If your young, and do not have the patience or time to develop internal energy, or gain the amazing sensitivity and agility developed from internal arts (like Bagua, Taiji, Xingyi and Akido)or Shaolin Kung fu at its higher levels, then yes boxing is the way to go. If your intention is to win a one on one fight against someone else, with your wits and skills, then boxing is a good way to start. If all you care about is fighting, then boxing is excellent, as well as muy thai and kick boxing. But if your intentions go deeper than that, and you are willing to devote time to an art with hundreds if not thousands of years of refinement to it, then find a good teacher and style that suits you and dedicate yourself. Read and learn of other's methods and enlighten yourself on the mechanics of the body and intrinsic energy.

There is a science behind the internal energy and application of it in every chinese art (and japanese ones that teach or apply it). It is just not something revealed or talked about among little power karate groups. It is not magic, it is developed through breathing exercises and physical exercies (sometimes combined) to either be able to release that energy at will or use it to harden areas of the body, YES even the groin and neck, to withstand HUGE blows, even knives. Of course the internal energy should not be released with un-natural movements, often taught in some forms in karate, as it is terrible for your body and as you grow older you will have to compensate your movements. Similar to boxing, you use the body mechanics of your legs, waist, and arms for full power. But behind that you also have the energy that comes from the DanTien, which is two inches below the navel. In Taiji EVERY movement is done in unison with your legs, waist, arms. There is never a single movement in which the arms move by themselves, or legs, or the waist, or even the head. It is practiced slow, and within those movements are hidden DEADLY applications that are released, explosively and naturally. This energy can be used to "Pound" someone, and shatter their bones or create shock in their internal organs through sheer power (xing/Bagua) or it could be used (like cupped hand of Bagua) to "inject" someone with an infusion of energy, at a concentrated vital point (a laser focused can cut through anything, without being pinpointed it wouldn't do anything)affecting the otherperson's electromagnetic field (or "chi" simply put) disabling given limbs or affecting the internal organs. The advantage of this, is that it can be released even an inch away from your opponent, directly into them or into a physical energy to knock them far back. In Taiji, you are rooted, your fa jin (explosive energy) strike comes from the dan tien, down to the legs to the ground, back to the dantien, through the waist, through the arms, all the way to the tips of your fingers all in a split second of silk reeling energy. In Xingyi, you use the body's momentum moving foward, natural movements of the body, and the rooting of the ground comes from stomping the front foot in which the energy explodes out the same way it does in taiji, except even harder. This art was used in the battlefield to STRIKE and KILL through armor. It compresses and expands. Bagua's energy twists, coils and uncoils. It strikes the exact same way as Xingyi and Taiji and is kind of like a balance between them both. Bagua is perhaps the most deadly out of all the internal arts when the focus is pure fighting.

Of course Masters of internal arts, or adept practicioners don't go around showing people how to kill or fight, or even argue about which one is beter because the nature of the art is the be at peace with one self. They dont have the selfishness to try to go out there and prove they are superior than another fighter, the art goes way beyond deadly martial art, it has healing properties and if practiced since little, longevity. It was refined by highly intelligent men, who wanted knowthing more than a way to reach "enlightment" or "heaven" or "immortality" and thus a system was born, with so many years of secluded refinement. Shaolin Kung Fu is almost dead, SO many teachings and styles were lost after the burning. The reason because Masters died with their secrets due to the government hunting down anyone who taught it. Many immigrated, some passed it down only from generation to generation. Yet know this, for hundreds of years these arts were refined in a secluded beautiful place of nature, in which they had their own "brothers" to work together and develop these arts down to an exact science, at which high levels creativity flourishes and expands.

I remember the first time I met my taiji teacher, he was humble and didn't look like a fighter. We did push hands and I could NEVER touch him, he could topple me easily without moving from his position (like akido does). But i didn't think much of this, he then said I could do whatever I wanted, Use both hands, kick, push, punch whatever and he didn't use his hands. Everything I did was absorbed by his body, violently shaking as I tried my hardest to push this short little chinese man. He didn't even move at all to absorb the attacks, which is the wiser thing, I push he glanced sideways I quickly pushed the other way and he did same thing, knowing that if he bounced back he would break my wrist from pushing or punching. It is not magic, rather his mind was so clear and his body so sensitive and in tune to the physical intentions of the body that he could sense and adjust at ease.
In ninjitsu the last skill they learn is sensing the enemies presence and beign able to avoid the attack even if its from behind. again its not magic, Its like when two electro magnetic fields collide (two people close together), a sensitivity to it could immediately sense the person's intention, as the energy is universal in everything that happens. Or you could just say that you sensed his chi, much simpler.

Eh anyways. People don't seem to know the true face of martial arts and how it was in the past, before it became more "hidden." Now there are so many offshoots and self proclaimed masters learning a few powerful techniques or breathing techniques and creating their own martial art system, but lack understanding of the core of the other one's. This post is way too long, I'm Done.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BaguaMonk:
Hmm... I just replied to another forum with the exact same topic.

For the person that said that "1 inch punch was makala" or whatever, and that boxing has a science behind it, well guess what, so does Shaolin Kung fu, or any other martial art for that matter. Shaolin Kung Fu could be used to defeat boxers, although a beginner (which would be even about 3-5 years into training) would probably be defeated by an adept boxer, ONLY because MA's nowdays train like three times a week and thats it, where in the past it was all day every day.Also most classes and public knowledge of Wushu/Kung Fu is watered down, yes even in China as it became Government regulated, and guess what, they destroyed the Shaolin Temple because of its powerful kung fu. But the real Kung Fu, not **** you see in TV, is just as dangerous, if not more than boxing. The reason is because you got literally thousands of techniques and methods of issuing power, and at high skill levels they are INSTINCTIVE, and every single one of them can be used for killing or permanently disabling your opponent. It is also known as the mother/father of all martial arts. Pretty much anything that you find in karate, Tae Kwon Do or even Akido can be found in Shaolin Kung Fu, only studied more in depth. (except Akido would be more related to Tai Chi).[/QUOTE]

Well ide say that stuff more like dancing and stage art was the father of martial arts, but im probably wrong about that, and still theres ALOT of MA based stuff that came from china, so i agree with you on that, and the rest im not going to read because i have to get up early tomarow. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Im a kickboxer, and very glad for this. Even more so after reading this forum.

Place a hardcore kickboxer against a hardcore boxer, and the kickboxer would brreak the boxer.

Takeing nothing away from boxing. If it wasn't for boxing, kickboxing would be plane old karate (taking nothing away from karate, but in the street, a kickboxer would take a karateka to peaces.

I would have to disagree, a true karateka who had trained for LONG periods of time and has perhaps the strongest most unbreakable discipline (remember, this is JAPANESE culture here) shouldn't have trouble with a kickboxer, in a place without rules. People misjudge MA's because they train in an Americanized Fast food environment. There is no way a kickboxer would ever defeat a karate master, and I'm saying alot because I have hardly any respect for karate (as it is Kung Fu's most ancient style watered down IMO).

But seriously, read the rest of my post, I hope its worth the time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Shaolin Kung Fu originated from an Indian Monk who made the classic tendon/change muscle metamorphasis. I think the "dancing" came about when people would watch chi gong methods and interpreted as dances, only they have real martial art applications. You ever see Bagua internal practice..in practice? It looks like a dance, graceful and beautiful. If the applications were not taught, people would think it was nothing but a dance, yet little do they know its actually perhaps the most dangerous martial art there is. It is known as the art of "overkill." As for UFC and all those arts, it is true that those guys are straight up fighters, but I hate it when people say that kung fu or internal styles would be ineffective in the ring. It would but you know WHY? Because the opponent would be dead in less than a second. Kung Fu revolves around PRECISE STRIKES, not just to balls, head or kneck (in which everyone guards)but rather all the hundreds of meridians around the body, with correct angle and correct force. They have at least a thousand ways of entering or countering and doing so, it would be simply ridiculous.
Ken Shamrock used pressure points, and look what happened. It is turning into a brawl fest with many rules. Seeing true kung fu fighting at its highest levels is the most beautiful thing there is (not choreographed or scripted)and you are often dumbfounded and at awe, unable to understand the complexity of what to them is natural. Also it is the ancient techniques now being used slowly, the problem is they have no training, they just apply the things they like. Fights are now won with slaps to the ear, a redirecting attack to a grapple. But again that is in a ring with rules.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but people should research and evaluate before trying to judge a 2000 year art and saying a contemporary sport would be able to topple it easily. There is alot more to an MA such as Taiji or Shaolin Kung fu than is publicly discussed. Read my post plz [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I can't talk anymore, everything I need to say is in there.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arakasi:
Im a kickboxer, and very glad for this. Even more so after reading this forum.

Place a hardcore kickboxer against a hardcore boxer, and the kickboxer would brreak the boxer.

Takeing nothing away from boxing. If it wasn't for boxing, kickboxing would be plane old karate (taking nothing away from karate, but in the street, a kickboxer would take a karateka to peaces.[/QUOTE]

LOL...too funny mate.
Iv'e seen more kick boxers going to boxing gyms to learn how to punch properly than anything else in my time in and around boxing gyms.
I went to a gym in Blackwwod and watched a boxer fight a kickboxer with no kicking allowed and the kickboxer didn't know where the puches were comming from next.I then watched the next round which had a no punching rule.The boxer was kicked from corner to corner.There was no third round.
Its up to you if you belive that or not but I know what I saw on that day and I wasn't impressed with the kickboxers.

As for the kickboxer beating a shodan in Karate...do me a favour!!!


P.S I didn't bother replying to Pete as he wrote utter bollox on boxing.Boxers cant fight in close....Tyson,Frazier,Mclean,Shaw,Marciano...need I say more.

Misconception blatant
It is in my opinion that martial arts or rather martial sciences are better than boxing. One martial science in particular, modern Wing Chun. Wing Chun which is the foundation for many martial art offspring (modern day gong fu, Jeet Kune do, southern praying mantis, five ancestor boxing, white crane, white eyebrow, etc..) was crated and intended to confront all ranges of combat. Boxers heavily rely on what is called eye-brain speed which in short is when a fighter must see an object coming towards him and react by blocking, rather than using Wing Chuns react ional combat speed. React ional speed relies on sense of touch, energy flow, and physical sensitivity which must be trained through arm bridges, leg bridges, and sticking hands combat drills. Wing chun fighters understand the concepts of interception, trapping or grappling, and simultainously striking. React ional speed relies on martial perception, body positioning, and movement. this is what allows Wing Chun fighters the skill to beat boxers to the punch every time.

Boxers in realistic terms have little to no foot work and are constantly off balance because of the momentum of their punches. Many non – true martial artist study an art for the purpose of its fighting implication. Real martial artist study the soul of the martial art; its history, lineage, tradition, evolution, etc.. Wing Chun Martial artist have exceptional foot work. And is the same as the wing chun offspring art of Jeet Kune do. Wing chun does not focus on high kicking, but rather low kick leg destruction techniques that will inevitably stop your opponent from walking for several months.

Another thing is that boxers like to burst and strike then set for stability. (set: meaning that they strike then come back to on guard position and then strike again.)
Wing chun fighters don’t have to worry about setting after striking because wing chun body positioning and hands are always set in the on guard position. Also, wing chun fighter don’t have to set and punch. We simply continuously punch because we already have mastered superior stability in fighting.

And for all you fighters out there who drought the science of Wing Chun I have some links which will help to prove the effectiveness of the wing Chun science

Links: http://sifugrados.com/mcvideos.shtml http://www.geocities.com/sifuleungmovies/ http://www.ebmas.net/europa/videoclips.htm http://pages.zdnet.com/wingtsun/wingtsunlinks.com/id18.html http://www.tassos.de/videos_fotos/videos_anschauen/main_videos_anschauen.htm

Bagua monk makes a very important analysis on Xing Yi and why it would prove more effective and effecient than boxing.

P.S. One must realize that Shaolin kung fu is the soul or the single most creative life force of combat todate. when boxers box even for many years, they only learn the skills of boxing. In kung fu the fighter not only spends life in the mastery of kung fu. He becomes Kung Fu...
and if one becomes Kung fu and has found the true path to enlightenment through combat, then there is no one that can touch him.!!!

*choke*

Boxers have no footwork?!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

OMG, that was great...

I second Matt's Laughter.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

*cough*

Who said that boxers have no footwork?? If a MAist (not to say Boxing is not an MA) wants to train in punching AND footwork ....go to a boxing gym.

Just because some of those bigs putz's you see in the ring don't dance, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Come over to my gym with me, we'll hit the ropes. I'll teach you to dance for 12 rounds without breaking a sweat.

Personally, I prefer to watch mid-weights in the ring, as they or below, show the boxers true footwork potential most times.

No footwork indeed.

-Ket

[This message has been edited by Ket (edited 12-20-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wing Chun Kuen:
Misconception blatant
It is in my opinion that martial arts or rather martial sciences are better than boxing. One martial science in particular, modern Wing Chun. Wing Chun which is the foundation for many martial art offspring (modern day gong fu, Jeet Kune do, southern praying mantis, five ancestor boxing, white crane, white eyebrow, etc..) was crated and intended to confront all ranges of combat. Boxers heavily rely on what is called eye-brain speed which in short is when a fighter must see an object coming towards him and react by blocking, rather than using Wing Chuns react ional combat speed. React ional speed relies on sense of touch, energy flow, and physical sensitivity which must be trained through arm bridges, leg bridges, and sticking hands combat drills. Wing chun fighters understand the concepts of interception, trapping or grappling, and simultainously striking. React ional speed relies on martial perception, body positioning, and movement. this is what allows Wing Chun fighters the skill to beat boxers to the punch every time.

Boxers in realistic terms have little to no foot work and are constantly off balance because of the momentum of their punches. Many non – true martial artist study an art for the purpose of its fighting implication. Real martial artist study the soul of the martial art; its history, lineage, tradition, evolution, etc.. Wing Chun Martial artist have exceptional foot work. And is the same as the wing chun offspring art of Jeet Kune do. Wing chun does not focus on high kicking, but rather low kick leg destruction techniques that will inevitably stop your opponent from walking for several months.

Another thing is that boxers like to burst and strike then set for stability. (set: meaning that they strike then come back to on guard position and then strike again.)
Wing chun fighters don’t have to worry about setting after striking because wing chun body positioning and hands are always set in the on guard position. Also, wing chun fighter don’t have to set and punch. We simply continuously punch because we already have mastered superior stability in fighting.

[/QUOTE]
It all well picking at boxing but its a sport after all and doesn't pretend to be anything else.The only people I see picking at boxing are the ones thats never tried it longer than 12 months.
Compare your Wing Chun in a UFC tournament and the reality of your chosen art would become apparent where faults are concerned in a fight situation.In regard to your 'burst and strike' and 'eye brain speed' its simply because boxing is about scoring points and stopping your opponent from scoring by pucnhing and then guarding from a counter punch.
If you train in boxing you will always fight someone who can also fight which is why you have to be sharp.I dont belive you train in Wing Chun to maybe duel another grandmaster on a drunken Saturday night do you?

Boxing is great for your average confrontaion in the real world but its limited against a person who trains in MA/MMA but then again Its my opinion that someone in Wing Chun would struggle against a MMA anyway.

If Wing Chun could teach boxers better footwork and punching techniques etc you would have boxing contenders/champions taking it up to enhance thier performance.A lot of boxers try dancing (samba etc) and yoga for relaxation to help them I have never heard of any taking up wing chun...EVER!

Its all about footwork.
To say boxers have no footwork only leads me to belive that you have never been inside a boxing gym and have never spoken to a boxing coach with any experience on the subject.
How do you think a hook is thrown with power and without telegraphing the punch?

If you walked into any top boxing gym and shared your opinions with a top trainer or boxer you would be laughed off the premises.

Here is a link which explains how Bruce Lee watched Ali tapes.The reasons are not clear so I'll let you decide for yourself.
http://www.bruceleecentral.com/bruceleepeople.htm

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 12-21-2004).]

Well, I have done Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kick Boxing and Judo for over 35 years.

I started my martial art career as a kid (I was probably 10 or 11) in Tae Known Do, where I hold the 6th Dan...Continued with Karate (Kyukoshin) where I hold the 4th Dan...Due to my love to compete I started training Kick Boxing and was Australian Champion for four years in a row.


I have also established my own Martial Art system called Fudoshinjutsu. Currently I have 64 students, excluding 19 blackbelts and 7 Instructors (3rd Dan and above) who have been loyal to my style for 12 years.

Well, I also used to work as a bouncer at some of the Sydney's most dangerous night clubs (e.g. in suburbs such as King's Cross, Cabramatta, Redfurn, Bankstown...)

Most boxers lack control. When I say this I mean that if a boxer has been provoked (e.g. on the streets and/or clubs, pubs etc) the first thing he would do is SWING.

If you manage to get out of the way and come in close from the sides or from behind HE IS YOURS!!! I am saying this based on the experience I have gained working as a bouncer.

I've seen the same scenario over and over again...boxer gets refused entry to a night club, gets "pissed off" tries to talk to a bouncer who's constantly ignoring him. Which gets the boxer even more fired up. Starts getting into bouncer's face, bouncer pushes him, boxer has a swing and boom...There it goes. Bouncer slides to the side, simultaneously stroking the throat or getting hold of the throat. After which there are endless oportunities.

Fudoshinjutsu ...or however you spell it.

With as much MA exp as you credit yourself with, i'm shocked that you don't know a very simple law in styles vs. individuals. A subject that has been brought up and promptly addressed numerous times already on this thread.

Its not the style, its the person. I consider myself a boxer ...and the "boxers" you speak of don't even seem fit to walk in my boxing shoes. Those aren't boxers, those are frustrated individuals who happen to go to a boxing gym.

big difference.

I don't know about australia, but in texas we respect our bouncers, and would never wildly swing at one without thinking closely of the repercussions. They hire'em for a reason.

-Ket

IMHO every MA could start with boxing.

Punching is fundemental, a fighter who can`t punch well has little chance in most ring sports or on the street. Try throwing a round house kick in a crowded bar, or narrow hallway. Good punching can and often does over come a good kicker. My experience is that most MA are weak in the punching, TKD in particular though the kicks are awsome. If you think your punching is good, or that your system will work vs a good puncher go to the local boxing club and ask to spar with a boxer by his rules. I garantee you will not want to fight him where you don`t have room to kick.

LOL...boxers close punchs weak..yeah right, only way they will get harder is if they are elbows.

PS I`m an exboxer now doing shootfighting and muay thai, so I know how much the boxing helped my "game".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fudoshinjutsu:

Most boxers lack control. When I say this I mean that if a boxer has been provoked (e.g. on the streets and/or clubs, pubs etc) the first thing he would do is SWING.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm or do you mean most people that try to use thier fists?
Boxing is about self control and keeping your cool in a very difficult situation (tournaments,sparring etc)
I run a boxing gym in the UK and I see a lot of 'wild swinging' with inexperienced boxers.A lot of people are right handed and class this has thier 'best punch' so it is fairly easy to slip under and to the left when a 'wild right' is thrown.
You know what you see working on the door and I dont doubt the people your dealing with but to say someone is a boxer because they throw a punch is almost like saying someone who attempts to kick you trains in karate or tae kwon do.
[QUOTE]If you manage to get out of the way and come in close from the sides or from behind HE IS YOURS!!! I am saying this based on the experience I have gained working as a bouncer. [/QUOTE]
Yes,its called pivoting (avoiding a punch by only moving the back leg but staying in close to counter punch) and as you know in boxing its used to 'shut down' a boxer and create a new angle to attack.A well trained boxer would know this basic principle.

So many people think that because someone has thrown a punch they must be automatically catergorized as boxers if they do nothing more.
A good boxer wont throw one punch...he will throw at the VERY LEAST 4 punches and he wil throw them when he is sure they will land.

I teach seven year olds to throw 1-2-3.
Jab,cross,hook which is a very basic combination so if a grown man can't do it when many seven year olds can something tells me he has very limited boxing experience or maybe even none.




[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 12-21-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fudoshinjutsu:

Most boxers lack control. When I say this I mean that if a boxer has been provoked (e.g. on the streets and/or clubs, pubs etc) the first thing he would do is SWING.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm or do you mean most people that try to use thier fists?
Boxing is about self control and keeping your cool in a very difficult situation (tournaments,sparring etc)
I run a boxing gym in the UK and I see a lot of 'wild swinging' with inexperienced boxers.A lot of people are right handed and class this has thier 'best punch' so it is fairly easy to slip under and to the left when a 'wild right' is thrown.
You know what you see working on the door and I dont doubt the people your dealing with but to say someone is a boxer because they throw a punch is almost like saying someone who attempts to kick you trains in karate or tae kwon do.
[QUOTE]If you manage to get out of the way and come in close from the sides or from behind HE IS YOURS!!! I am saying this based on the experience I have gained working as a bouncer. [/QUOTE]
Yes,its called pivoting (avoiding a punch by only moving the back leg but staying in close to counter punch) and as you know in boxing its used to 'shut down' a boxer and create a new angle to attack.A well trained boxer would know this basic principle.

So many people think that because someone has thrown a punch they must be automatically catergorized as boxers if they do nothing more.
A good boxer wont throw one punch...he will throw at the VERY LEAST 4 punches and he wil throw them when he is sure they will land.

I teach seven year olds to throw 1-2-3.
Jab,cross,hook which is a very basic combination so if a grown man can't do it when many seven year olds can something tells me he has very limited boxing experience or maybe even none.
http://www.bruceleecentral.com/bruceleepeople.htm

A good boxer has outstanding footwork and punching ability period.
Good luck with your endevours Fudoshinjutsu.



[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 12-21-2004).]