pointless techniques

Wow ... speachless ... there ... composed myself and can think clearly now.

Wrist grabs / wrist locks ... all "very" useful. Many extremely valid points in this thread of how or when you can use these. As a self defense technique on its own it is invaluable ... especially for women and children ... not disallowing men either. These techniques are taught at our school and I have found them extremely useful and am only hampered by my own imagination.

I was surprised ... or possible read too quickly to see this but these are also extremely useful for grappling. Whether standing up or on the ground upside down or sideways a wrist is still a wrist and can be grabbed and trapped and locked up. I have seen and have done so where you use the floor or their body or your body to hold their elbow in place with force and then torque or bend the wrist/hand. Or vice versa. Can you say pain ... tapping out right now.

Can you use it in real life ... YES. Is it practical ... YES. Time and place for everything. I'd rather know it then not.

Again ... wow!

Duragon

Something you also might consider is that in many classical schools the first tech taught are the simplist and least likly to be dangerous if the student quits and leaves the school.

That way they can't "steal" the really effective and more dangerous techniuqes.
Back in the day folks were seriously worried that what they teach you today could very well used against THEM the next.

Not saying that I agree with that outlook--but I will agree that it makes pretty good sense.

Maybe thats why some folks still teach that first.

Hello Dcm:

If someone it truly attempting to hurt you, do you believe they will not grab your hand to prevent you from hitting them? To prevent you from hurting them???

Perhaps distance is the fundamental key to the defensive technique? Close enough and grabbing is more likely maybe?

Merely a thought, for whatever its worth...
Jeff

Sorry chaps,chapesses,over 28years of doorwork ,there are very few places of my anotomy that people have not tried to grab,tear or twist off .Because it hasnt happened to you doesnt mean it doesnt happen !!.Iv used wristlocks manytimes as well sweeps ,takedowns pps and a plethora of other techniques.If you think about it logically these movements would never be taught or practised if there was no real value.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX!!!!!

it may seem annoying to some that im bringing back this post from the bottom of the barrel but i havent been around, cause i have a life outside of the forums unlike some , any ways getting back to the rusty old topic in response to mainly ji8ki9, when you say they try to grab and tear things off, do you mean they've succeeded in grabbing you or you've stopped it, cause surely the truly skilled would'nt allow that to happen in the first place, but i can understand your situation being a doorman, you must stand your ground, your duty is to stop them from getting in, and it being a doorway your defending i dont suppose you have much room to menauver with a wall behind you correct?

Pointless techniques, Hmm..

It is interesting to note that what is usually perceived to be useless training can have great importance,” Wax on, Wax Off” It may be too simple of an example to use from the Karate Kid movie, but I think it illustrates the point well.

Training in the passed disguised the utility or relevance of a technique as a way of concealing from the uninitiated and the outside observer the true purpose of a technique. Because much of what is being learned is watered down, the knowledge and relevance of some of the “odd” looking technique has been lost or changed from its original meaning.

In some cases the meaning behind a technique is only passed on to higher students and the rational for it might be the complete opposite taught at lower levels (Shoden).

Technique and training in a particular school may also serve to develop the student to look, think and move in a particular way relevant to the Ryu. Goju Ryu training, for example, is meant to develop a student’s body to move in a certain way that is different from other Ryu. You should be able to look at a student and be able to tell that he is a Goju practitioner from the way they move. This happens only with those who practice seriously, that is why it is questionable, the practice of studying other Arts or schools.

The problem also boils down to the knowledge and experience of the teachers of a school, speaking only about traditional Ryu; some teachers have not spent enough time with their teachers. This has the effect of watering down the Ryu. Many students than proceed from appoint of view that a particular Ryu is weak in certain areas or there exist no specialist knowledge such as newaza. In the end the generic look that main stream Karate has come to have becomes the problem.

i get what you mean by being able to tell a goju practioner by his movements (being one myself ) . for example all basic kicks, from zenkutsu-datchi for arguements sake, all start like a front kick.
for instance a round house starts like a front kick and is then pivoted into a roundhouse making it harder to tell what kick is about to be executed.
ive also notice alot of sweeping in goju ryu, it seems to be a trait that most goju practitioners have or maybe its cause the guys i train with are just old and sneaky (but still throw me around like a ragdoll i might add )
but what you must remember is that your fighting a person and not a style. sure they may move similar but you can garantee the crap thats going on in their head is completly different. (just took a page from Jkogas didnt i? )

i did a couple years of judo and have always loved newaza ever since, it maybe true that over the years certain arts have lost a few things due to 'watering down', but isnt it the responsability of the practitioner to make their art as full as it can be? their responsability to stay with their teachers until they know they are ready?

Yeah training with the arm stuck out and the opponent not moving is bad thing if it's done as a part of normal training, but I'd say that's a pretty rare occurance. Most good MA schools only do that for the first few hours of learning a particular technique, then get to the more useful (advanced) stuff of that particular technique.

As far as wrist locks being useless..

Please tell me about the hand positioning of someone who has you in a head lock, in your opinion. I'd say a headlock is an extremely common position to be in in a street fight, especially if you are a nonviolent person and you do not wish to escalate violence. It happens to be a perfect position to make a wrist lock from, if you're good at escapes from headlocks anyways.

I have had someone put me in a headlock since I started training, and once before I started training. One of these people was a drunk friend who I did not want to hurt, hit or do anything unless I needed to.

Both times the wrist lock was available to me but I didn't go through with them fully because performing them would result in either a battle of strength to do a controlled wristlock where the other person wouldn't be seriously injured, or an all out wrist lock that would shatter the wrist entirely. Simply by twisting the body, then dropping a bit, and bringing their wrist with you is how wristlocks can beat strength. Full body movement, not strength battles, no one has the power to twist their arm in the opposite direction with more force than you can twist your whole body.

I think wristlocks are one of the most useful forms of basic self defense moves, especially in the context I gave above. If someone puts you in a rear or side headlock, you are automatically in prime position to twist your body, grab their wrist, escape from the lock and apply a wrist lock AND an elbow bar plus a throw that will result in them landing on their front, unable to keep fighting, all in one sequence. I speak from experience on this particular method because that's exactly what I would have done if this person hadn't been a drunken friend. It would have resulted in broken bones and them hitting their face on a nearby wall on the throw. I wound up doing something much simpler and less risky for them.

As far as wrist grabs are concerned, someone could grab your wrist if you try to punch them, i.e. they just blocked your punch and managed to get ahold of your arm, or they could be trying to crush your hand with theirs to be macho (happens a lot with big guys, I'm sure you know someone who does it too, just imagine if they were drunk and angry). Also a standard 'come along' type of grip, aggressive bouncers or someone trying to drag you out of a building to start a fight, etc.. Also possible is if you are armed with a weapon or incapacitating spray, if they miss the weapon you're holding they'll try to go for the wrist usually, if a grab was their intention.

Another scenario is someone who might actually know something about martial arts and they are trying to apply a wrist lock on you, or worse a throw or elbow lock, you are in big big trouble if someone grabs your wrist then starts to turn around for a shoulder throw. You'd better know how to escape or your arm is about to be broken and you're going onto the floor in a hurry.