How many techniques do you KNOW?

After years of martial arts soon we will find out that the techniques we're shown can be overwhelming, as in too many.Most people I know even after 20-30 years only KNOW a handful. They can show you how to do several hundred no doubt,but how many can they actually apply against a resisting opponent? I've been doing Goju for close to 15yrs now and I've never fought with anyone,no matter how experienced,who doesn't just do the same techniques over and again and make them work.Anyone have another take on this?

Sanchin31, I would have to completely agree.

After 19yrs of MA, I can count on one hand the techniques you will most likely see out of me in a sparring match (even including grappling):

1. backfist
2. sidekick and/or roundkick
3. reverse punch
4. rear naked choke
5. gi choke from the guard

Granted, I kind of cheated and combined two kicks in number 2 , but to the point, I think your observation is right on the money. I also think that experienced MAists not only tend to use the same techniques repeatedly when fighting, but when they do add some variety, it is most often merely a subtle variation of their favorite basic techniques.

This reminds me about a recent thread by MAGr (I believe) re: practicing basics. I think this is why most smart MAists practice LOTS of basics - not only are they the building blocks for other techniques, but because of their simplicity they tend to be the most effective.

Thanks for sharing this - like usual with your threads, this is a thought-provoker.

Mike

Hands:

Jab
Cross
Hook (mainly lead)
Overhand
Elbows

Feet:
Roundhouse Kick (legs or ribs, usually won't go to the head in a real situaion)
Front Kick
Knees (in the Clinch)

Grappling:
Guillotine Choke
Rear Naked Choke
Transitions to Mount
Transitions to Knee Ride

Sanchin,
I agree too. The things that I think many people forget, especially if they try to fold other techniques or martial arts into their experience, is that conceptually they will have to fit with models of movement that they know and understand. A huge number of techniques that do not flow from a conceptual model that the individual is familiar with will be a disservice to the individual. So, choosing what fits limits techniques...however, if you have the conceptual models to work from, then techniques spring from them and there are many that are variations on basic movements. But all are foundationally built out of a particular system's basics and an idea how to move that is presented to the martial artist within his or her style.

The second thing to remember, that the martial artist's physical makeup also pushes the performance of techniques. The techniques have their own validity within themselves, the performer, however, may not be able to utilize certain things becuase of lack of flexibility or other physical constraints. This again doesn't make the technique bad, but does limit the use of certain techniques to a particular person. This also constrains the technical diversity per individual.

So you have basics and a few tried and true weapons and variations of these.

-B

To really know a technique takes a lot of practice. You have to be able to do it in your sleep. Most people, sadly, don't take enough time out to practice the techniques they've been shown. Their instructor shows them one thing and they say, "Alright, I did that three times, what's next?" They end up leaving class learning nothing.


Good post Sanchin.

To REALLY be effective you cant have hundreds of techniques. Your techniques have to be instinct, part of muscle memory so you dont waste time thinking about them in a fight(I know because I do that all the time), it has be instantaneous and for that each technique must be trained literally thousands of times, and also if you do that for example, several defenses for a punch their all going to interphere with each other and you'll get fuddled up, that also happens to me alot. This is why military systems have so few and so simple of techniques.

I know the following pretty well:

Jab
Side kick
Back kick
Inward crescent elbow strike

That's about it, I've been told that my straight-arm-lock is good but I've not tried it against a resisting opponent and it's easy to counter (just starting grappling).

I....but...techniques.....

*cold stare at butterfly*

Curses, man. You said what I was going to say.

I think that most MA folk over time tend to whittle down their technique list to the few reliable moves that they know. You make up for it by being able to use them from different angles or different situations entirely.

While I have increased my technical repetoire some in the last 10 years, my list is still pretty short.

In terms of striking here's the list I'd like to know:

Jab
Cross
Hook
Knee (MT Style)
Inward crescent elbow
Side kick

I don't know enough about grappling yet to be able to make a list for it but I'd love to be good at hip-throw (O-Goshi Nage?).

Everyone so far has said it pretty well.
Over the years I have been taught so many techniques I can't even name them all now.
In the end it is not how many you learn it is how many you can use.
One technique - if it is truely ingrained in your body and mind can be used in many ways.
If you learn a few very well it is better than knowing hundreds just a little bit.

All you need is about for or five good techniques you can use from any position in any situation.Usually the ones people KNOW are some of the basics they were first taught.

2 is all I need - entering (irimi) and pivoting (tenkan).
The rest just happens...

Sanchin, this is a very valid point. I can honestly say that there are only a handful of techniques that I know from the AKK lists that I could work in an actual fight, and most of those are from the yellow belt list. In fact the top five deal with the most common attacks:

Delayed sword- Right punch
Sword of Destruction- left punch
Deflecting hammer- Right kick
Alternating mace- two handed push
Captured Twigs- bear hug from behind.

All the other techniques I've practiced, I know well enough in principle to combine with those five and a few others, but I could never pull off some of the blue or green techniques flawlessy in a fight.

Everyone has a few favorites, no matter how many they know. What's frustrating to a teacher is to train the class on a new move only to see it completely ignored in the end of class sparring session. As a kyu I made it a point to incorporate that move in the fight; hell, my purpose in sparring was to learn and improve, not necessarily to "win".

Perhaps I'm unusual then in variety of techniques. While the front and "scoop" kicks, the lunge and reverse punches, shutos, elbows and hammerfists are what you're most likely to see from me, even I don't know for sure what's coming next!

Coming from an occupational background where fights & resistence were common AND where use of MA techniques were discouraged, I would have to say I KNOW nothing.

Let me explain...In the dojo, I can teach a myriad of techniques & their countless variations w/ good form, timing & effectiveness. In tournaments, I've won several kata & kumite competitions. All well & good however, I see proof of MA mastery (to KNOW) as "not getting seriously injured or killed in a real encounter w/ violence".

To date, I remain uninjured following many real-life violent encounters but not because I have a good jab or round kick - perfect technique flies out the window when large motor skills come into play. Timing, body shifting & (most important) reading your adversary come into play. This is difficult, @ best, to teach within the dojo. It's an "experience" thing.

Anecdote: One week after I learned the shoulder-throw response to someone applying an arm-bar choke, I used it successfully. I have to admit that I didn't really "know" the technique but I'm glad I learned it.

Hedkikr,

You are absolutely correct! I hear so many people trying to learn "the phenomenal, spectactular" technique. Say a jumping back spinning whatever kick....and they have no concept that when you look at the basics of movement and foundational techniques, that therein lies what you need. Everyone focuses on attacks...but in the hierarchy of things body movement and blocks/perries should be considered the most important since this is the platform from which to launch your attacks.

and MattJ, Thanks for the kudos.

-B

Hedkikr, you mentioned something that's the key here: gross motor skills. Some guys I train with can perform amazingly beautiful and complex grappling techniques IN THE DOJO. On the street with your adreneline flowing and the blood retreating from your fingers may be a different thing. The techniques I mentioned like elbows and hammerfists don't take a hell of a lot of precision, and while it would be nice to aim for vital spots or pressure points, I'll eschew any precision for the big blast.

I think that what Kung-fu has taught me was that every single technique or any movement of your body must be natural. Natural in the sense it is instinctive.

Its what Bruce Lee was talking about, not having any technique is your greatest technique because its more natural, and your reflexes guide you. This way, through great training, you should'nt really have any "favourite" techniques, just a natural mastery of basic foundation of the art.

I believe that your favorite techniques are the ones that are natural for you, not the ones that look good, are easy or are hard to do. Practicing techniques that look good or work well for someone else is a flaw. Instead, working on the ones your are most comfortable with and which YOU feel effective should be your favorite techniques. But even then they should'nt be done because you like them and they have worked for you a couple times. Each situation calls for differant measures thats why these favourite techniques sometimes cannot overcome certian situations.

I am just surprised that so many of you with over 10 years of experience are talking like children about techniques. I am no invincible great Martial Artist, but I think that what Bruce Lee was talking about has not nudged in yet, I think thats why even great Martial Artists here in North America could no match up to Bruce Lees ideas and philosophy and most importantly his skill.

NO MIND

tookien1

I'm not reading anymore posts with Bruce Lee in them! Sheesh!

Sanchin,

Ditto for what you said with respect to Tookien's remarks....Jeeeesh, some people are stuck on Bruce Lee like gum to a movie theatre floor.

Ditto again... i hate to destroy your great veiws on Bruce Lee, and i respect he was a great martial artist, but the only documented fight i have ever actually been able to find on him... he lost, and you will find that real JKD practitioners dont teach JKD, but JKD ideas, as when Bruce died, it wasnt a complete style.....But to add my two cents on the How many techniques do you KNOW? debate, there is a formula called the 20/80 idea. It is that 80% of your training will never be used during a confrontation, and that only %20, in most cases the basic fundamentals of your style, are the things you will use... so if you are training for a confrontation, remeber that while you may not be wasting %80 of your training (after all, everyone wants to learn more) you will never actually use it. i like to thing that i know two techniques, and that they work best when used together, they are WINNING and SURVIVAL

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After years of martial arts soon we will find out that the techniques we're shown can be overwhelming, as in too many.Most people I know even after 20-30 years only KNOW a handful. They can show you how to do several hundred no doubt,but how many can they actually apply against a resisting opponent? I've been doing Goju for close to 15yrs now and I've never fought with anyone,no matter how experienced,who doesn't just do the same techniques over and again and make them work.Anyone have another take on this?

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Well I a few tricks